Now, you know, whether information is property, and whether the activities I engaged in was
protected by the First Amendment.
Okay, let's go back to the phones.
Good morning.
Hello, is anyone there?
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay.
A few months ago, the computer show on BAI had an hour program on the other case that
you discussed.
Steve Jackson Games.
Right, right.
They had an hour show on that case, and they had a lawyer from one of the top constitutional
law firms in the country talking about the case, and discussing the question of the way
in which the First Amendment would apply to this type of case.
And I don't remember his name or the name of his firm, but you could probably find out
by asking any one of the computer people.
Yeah, I believe Craig was trying to answer that.
Well, the New York firm is Rabinowitz and Bowden, and Silverglate and Good is located
in Boston.
Right.
I mean, if you wanted another opinion on the case, I mean, you could probably get one from
them.
Okay.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Our phone number is 212-279-3407.
And Craig, I wanted to give out that address one more time for your legal defense fund,
because I think a lot of people are interested in helping out in whatever way they can.
Okay.
That address, once more, is for Kerov Sheldon Zener, Z-E-N-N-E-R, and the law firm is Katten,
K-A-T-T-E-N, Muchen, M-U-C-H-I-N, and Zavis, Z-A-V-I-S.
They're located at 525 West Monroe Street, Suite 1600, Chicago, Illinois, 60606.
And for anyone who's sending some sort of check or money order, they should be made
out to the law firm, Katten, Muchen, and Zavis, with some sort of notation on the check in
the memo section or with the letter as to the account of Craig Neidorf.
And I guess the whole thing on the envelope should be addressed to Neidorf Defense Fund?
That'd be good, but definitely say something like, Attention Sheldon Zener, or Kerov Sheldon
Zener.
Okay.
And our phone number here is 212-279-3407.
If you want to show some support for WBAI, please call our pledge line now, 212-279-3400.
We do have the special one-time offer for this marathon that will be ending tonight.
It's only going to be offered during this program.
Of all $55 pledges, 55 and more, we'll get a year of 2600 Magazine, which is your link
to the hacker world, to the news stories that are going on.
For instance, the Craig Neidorf story, the Steve Jackson story, all the other stories
about hackers or hacking-related material that you don't read about in the mainstream
media.
You'd read about it in a hacker publication, and in fact, you'd see it years in advance.
You would see what is coming, what is going to be happening.
We've been talking about this in 2600 for, it seems, forever.
It's something that has been going on for as long as people have been playing with other
computers and learning things that a lot of people think they're not supposed to be learning.
There have been terror tactics and all kinds of ways of persuasion, persuading people not
to ask those questions, not to find out those bits of knowledge.
It's an important topic that needs to be discussed more and more, and we need to reach answers
to this issue.
We need to ask ourselves, are computer hackers criminals?
And if not, then how should they be treated?
Should people be kicking in doors and pulling guns on teenagers that log into the wrong
computer once or twice in their lives, or make a free phone call now and then?
It's a very disturbing question when things like this happen right in front of us.
By receiving that magazine, you will be in tune with these events as they happen, before
they happen, and you can become educated in a way that perhaps you might not think you
can become educated in, but it is quite possible.
You don't need to know a lot about computers or anything like that.
And plus there's a lot of other information in the magazine too, information about how
various computer systems work, how various phone systems work.
For instance, in the latest issue, the summer issue which just came out, there is an extensive
article on customer-owned payphones and how they work, how they don't work, what you can
do to make sure that you get your money's worth, and a whole lot of other things.
The most extensive article I think ever to have appeared anywhere on these payphones,
these one-armed bandits, some people are calling them, that are popping up throughout
the city streets.
You can become the most educated person on your block by learning how these things work,
and it's written in English so that you can understand exactly what it is that's being
talked about.
It's not some kind of technical jargon that no one outside the industry will understand.
So by calling 212-279-3400 and pledging your support to WBAI, you will be pledging your
support for freedom of speech and also receiving a year's worth of 2600 Magazine and opening
yourself up to this fascinating world even more.
So that's all I'm going to say about that.
I would like to see a couple more calls come in before we leave tonight.
212-279-3400, if you're thinking about joining us and helping out the station and keeping
us going, please call.
Alright, 212-279-3407 is our on-air line, and let's see who's on that.
Good morning.
And that was...
I don't like that voice.
That sounded like the exact same voice before, and that's why I hung up so quickly.
212-279-3407, hurry up and call...
Oh, someone's already back?
That's incredible.
They must have called in the exact second that that line got released.
Good morning.
Yeah, is there any way that Craig could give that 1-800 number to get the Belcourt Catalog?
I don't know.
Do we have that number, Craig?
I don't have it with me right now.
Yeah, I've been trying to get that number myself, because I'd like to have it published
in 2600.
You might just try 800-DIRECTORY-INFORMATION.
Uh-huh.
Okay, thank you very much.
And add the address for Belcourt, B-L-L-C-O-R-E.
Okay, why don't you try that?
In fact, we're going to try that right now.
Let's see if we can actually get a response here.
And find out that number for our listeners as a public service here.
And we'll go back to the phones in just a second.
You know, we've got to fix these phones.
Every time it connects to something, it hangs up.
Let's try that one more time.
All right, now I misdialed.
This can take forever, folks.
Here we go.
You know, it might just...
I remember it might just be 1-800-BELCOURT.
That's a possibility.
Let's see if we can get an answer here.
Oh, come on.
Three rings is unacceptable.
Directory, Steve.
Ah, yes, hi.
I'm looking for the number for BELCOURT.
That's B-E-L-L-C-O-R-E.
What location?
I'm sorry?
What location do I...
How many are there?
Is that in New Jersey or Illinois?
I guess New Jersey.
One moment, please.
Thank you.
The toll-free number is 800-274-2400.
Repeat, 800-274-2400.
If you have further questions, a directory assistance operator will return.
We don't need the Illinois one, do we, Craig?
I don't think so.
Okay, so let's disengage that line.
But that's the number there, and that's how easy it is to get.
And if you didn't hear it call 800-INFORMATION, it's free.
And, in fact, so is that number.
212-279-3407, our RN Airline.
And, please, let's see some calls come into the pledge line
so we know that there's people out there that care enough to...
I hate to say it.
I hate to say it, but I've got to say it.
Care enough to put their money where their mouths are.
Yes, 212-279-3400 is our pledge line, or maybe we should call it our prayer line.
I don't know.
Give a call and talk to the friendly tally person.
Work something out, but show your support somehow.
Good morning.
Yes, I just wanted to say, I called before, and I just wanted to say one other thing.
With the federal police going around and arresting dozens and dozens of hackers and computer people,
I think that it is really necessary to counterattack against them.
Now, you have this organization up in Boston or Cambridge or something,
and I think that someone ought to mount a full-scale legal counterattack against them
because otherwise, if you just let them go on, they're going to keep on doing it.
Well, what would you have them do?
I would have them do what the other fellow suggested,
which is sue the federal government for phony prosecutions.
The problem with most of these cases is while there's been maybe 40 to 100 raids in the last few months,
there's actually been very few arrests made.
So while these people have had their equipment and things confiscated,
they haven't actually been arrested, and in the meantime,
the government can claim that they're still checking into things.
It's a cop-out, but unfortunately it's an accepted one.
Julian, are you about to say something, Julian?
Well, I just wanted to point out that, again, there is nonetheless,
whether they've been arrested or not, there is the damage of confiscation.
And this is fairly unique, too, and technology-specific.
A lot of these attorneys, you talk to them and say,
well, why in the world do you, you know, you're looking for specific pieces of information.
You know what the information might look like if you saw it printed out.
Why do you have to take the whole computer?
Why do you have to, you know, it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That's not all they take.
They take the printer, they take the telephone, they take anything they can get their hands on.
As I said, you know, they took somebody's Pac-Man game,
they've heard stories of people's stereos being lifted.
But their point is that, well, you know, we can't just get it off the computer.
This is very sensitive technology, and, you know, if we just sat there trying to get it out of there,
you know, we'd be there for days.
In other words, we don't know what the hell we're doing, so we're just taking the whole thing with us.
Exactly.
That's frightening.
One thing else that's becoming kind of, I guess, a precedent here is that equipment is being seized and not returned.
It's being forfeited.
That's the penalty now.
They don't charge anybody with anything, but they say to them,
we'll drop the whole thing if you just agree to forfeit all of your equipment.
Emmanuel, I mean, don't you see those ads all the time for those big government auctions?
That's how they're paying back the deficit.
It's the same thing that's going on with the war on drugs.
Basically, if you're on a yacht and you smoke a joint or something,
technically the yacht can be seized and sold off at auction, which is kind of a crazy thing.
I think it's happened to a couple of rock bands, actually.
But they're trying to apply the same kind of logic to computer hackers now.
If a computer hacker does something, allegedly does something, he can either face what you face, Craig,
a long trial and legal expenses through the roof, or he can just say,
okay, take all my equipment and leave me alone.
Given the choice, I probably would have opted for that.
Yeah, and most people would because most people don't want to hassle in their lives.
But think of the effect that's going to have on the future, a very bad effect.
It's kind of like blackmail, I guess.
Yeah, and as the caller pointed out, it's important to start really going on the offensive and saying,
people, this isn't acceptable, and not to let it just sort of become the precedent.
I mean, that's the way these dubiously constitutional interpretations of new technology settle into the law of the land,
because people just say, well, okay.
They go with the people's first reactions to the new technology, and then that sort of sediments into law.
That's the way things work, by precedent.
Julian, perhaps there's something that, as a reporter, you might want to look a little further into,
but I think what's been going on hasn't gone unnoticed in that I've seen statements from Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont.
He's the chairman of the Senate Committee on Technology and the Law,
and he has said things to the effect of that the government has gone too far
with a lot of these prosecutions and some of the raids that are taking place.
And I know that he's introduced new legislation concerning the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,
and to what he's done exactly about the zealousness or the overzealousness of some of the government agents,
I'm not sure, but it might be something to look into.
Yeah, I've heard about that.
I mean, I think that's probably a step in the direction of what we're talking about.
Let's take another call.
Good morning. Turn down your radio.
Okay, hold on.
Okay, I just wanted to share a little experience I had a few years ago.
I've never been a computer hacker, but I have gotten phony sprint codes, or illegal, shall we say,
sprint codes and long-distance telephone codes from friends that are hackers.
And a number of years ago...
You do realize, of course, that the government would classify you as a hacker just for the possession of these items?
Oh, I know that. That I know.
And you do realize, of course, that people who get calling card numbers aren't necessarily hackers?
Yes, I know.
Okay. Go ahead.
Well, anyway, I've gotten... As a matter of fact, yes, I'm happy to say that I still use them.
But about five years ago, the Secret Service showed up at my door
and asked for the person that my phone was listed under, which, of course, was myself.
They basically came in, used a few scare tactics, wanted to look around the house, which I wouldn't let them.
I didn't own a computer at the time, but Agent Rafael Figueroa, who came in to interrogate me at the time,
hadn't realized the fact that I had worked with other police agencies over the years in my line of work,
and I know and have studied interrogation techniques.
So I know when someone has basically nothing.
They had me on a few long-distance calls. That was it.
And he was trying to drill me for information.
The way he interrogated me at the time was somewhere in explaining to me what the process was,
and somewhere in midstream, he worked into the sentence,
by the way, you do have a right to remain silent on anything that you da-da-da-da-da,
which sort of makes your adrenaline pop out just a little bit.
Someone says that, you know?
Right.
I said, wait a minute, am I being arrested or not?
And he said, no, no, no, I just want you to know that you have a right to remain silent.
This is after he asked me about two dozen questions.
Uh-huh.
So what I told him was, yes, I lied.
I told him that I was on a conference line in New York, and someone called from California,
and I said, I can't believe you're paying for this.
And he said, of course I'm not. Here's the code I'm using.
And I said, well, that's basically what happened.
I made a few calls.
So he pretty much accepted that.
He took a few notes, and they left.
About a month later, two more Secret Service agents showed up.
Oh, by the way, this is after getting a call like once every two or three days from Agent Figueroa and his partner.
Every two or three days they would call to say, tell me something.
What does X23781 mean to you?
And I'd say, nothing, which it meant nothing to me anyway.
They'd call me with questions like that, and when I would say nothing, I don't know,
they would just simply hang up in my face.
They were calling me at their own whim to see what I knew.
Like, what does this mean? What does that mean?
They didn't know they'd hang up.
No goodbye, no nothing.
They didn't even say goodbye?
No, no, nothing.
Nothing.
This is incredible.
So this went on for a few, this went on for about three weeks.
And then about, like I said, about a month after that,
two more Secret Service agents showed up with the same Xerox copies that the other two guys had.
And they had no idea that anyone showed up at my house in the first place.
They had no idea whatsoever.
This is how disorganized these morons are.
These two guys showed up asking for me again, and I said, what, again?
And they said, what do you mean, again?
I said, well, two agents were here about a month ago,
and I pulled out Raphael Figueroa's card and showed it to them.
And they apologized, looked at each other, kind of embarrassed, and left.
After that, I realized that this was just a total, a total, I can't say asshole, can I?
Moronic operation that the people in charge or the powers that be or whoever is running the show,
driving around the countries and questioning people,
has no idea how they're distributing information, assigning tasks and cases, etc., etc.
They had no idea what they were doing.
Shortly after that, about a month after that even,
the partner of Raphael Figueroa, whose name escapes me at the moment,
called me up and said that he decided that I know more than I told them
and that I am to come down to World Trade Center up to his office and undergo questioning.
And I just simply said, no way, no way.
And yes, I used the F word.
I basically said, no way, and F you.
If you want to interrogate me again, you do it in my lawyer's office next time.
So he said to me, well, you know, I think you know more than you're telling us.
And if I find out any other way than the SHIT, he's going to hit the fan
and you're going to jail, buddy, that kind of crap.
And I haven't heard from them in the last five years.
Did you ever sign anything?
No, I didn't.
That's something that I understand usually they make you do at some point.
Oh, yes, yes. This was his idea.
To be honest with you, I really think that they forgot to make me do that.
In fact, a very recent case here in the city involving a hacker that was raided by the Secret Service,
they basically said his father had a computer system
and they were going to take that computer system.
Now, that's the family's livelihood there is the father's computer system.
So they said, no, don't take that one.
You know, there's nothing on that system.
So they were able to get a lot more stuff as a result.
They were able to take all the equipment belonging to the kid
and have him sign all kinds of forms.
And one of the forms that he signed, and that the father, I believe, had to sign,
was that this was not done under duress.
Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
As a matter of fact, no, I did fill out a short statement and sign it,
basically saying that I met a guy named Pete or John, whatever name.
I fabricated in my brief statement as to where I got this long-distance code,
and I did sign a statement to that effect saying that that was it.
And I, of course, knew what I was doing, unbeknownst to him.
And within my statement, I added that I was very uncomfortable doing this
and did it without the presence of a lawyer and hadn't spoke to my lawyer yet
and was read my rights somewhere in mid-sentence.
And they didn't like that, of course.
He was watching me write, and he said, you know, you really don't have to write that.
I said, but it's true, and that's what occurred.
And I signed it, and that was it.
So I think that's basically why his partner harassed me two months later.
But it might also be part of the reason that they never bothered me again.
Interesting.
Well, I'd be careful if I were you because they play hardball out there,
and I'm open to all kinds of suggestions as to how to deal with that.
Yes.
Thanks very much for calling.
Okay.
279-3407, our call-in line.
279-3400 is our pledge line.
And we're going to be wrapping this up fairly soon.
Craig, Julian, any thoughts?
I just hope that our last caller hasn't tipped his hand too much
by talking about specific agents' names and the ordeal.
Yeah.
Well, hopefully, since it occurred five years ago,
people have been transferred or, you know, natural disasters have occurred or whatever,
and hopefully he's not involved in that kind of thing anymore anyway.
212-279-3407.
Good morning.
So that's how they show it.
I don't know about that.
What was that?
Not good sound quality at all.
Let's see what this next one is.
212-279-3407, again, our pledge line.
And I do want to see some calls come in before we go off tonight.
212-279-3400, pledge your support.
Show that there are people out there who are willing to pledge support at 3 in the morning here in New York City.
I know they're out there.
I know that there are people out there that care enough to throw a few dollars our way and keep us going.
So give a call to 212-279-3400 and show your support for WBAI at this time of need, our fall membership drive.
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and the same holds true for the subscription to 2600 Magazine, which you will get with a pledge of $55.
Again, that number, 279-3400, area code 212.
Just flip through the dial.
See what else you can find that deals with topics like the topics we deal with here on WBAI.
And if you find something else, then that's amazing.
Let me know about it.
But I don't think you will.
I think if you flip through the dial, you'll come back and realize this is one unique place.
We want to keep it that way.
But the only way we can do that is with your support, 212-279-3400.
Good morning.
Hello.
How are you doing?
Yeah. Is this WBAI?
Yes, it is.
Okay. I'd like to speak.
While you're speaking, go ahead.
Am I on there?
Yes, you are.
Okay. I was wondering, do you take credit cards for pledging?
Good point, good point.
Yes, we do take Visa and we take MasterCard.
But I guess I should have mentioned that before.
That lessens the blow for a lot of people.
So, yeah, when you call up 279-3400, keep that in mind.
We do take Visa and MasterCard.
Great. And what's the subscription price for pledging?
Okay. For $45, you can be a regular subscriber to WBAI.
For $55, you'll get a subscription to 2600 Magazine for a full year.
And if you're a student or senior citizen, you can subscribe for $25 to WBAI.
Great.
Okay?
Great. Thank you. I'll do so.
Okay. Thanks for calling.
Okay.
212-279-3400 is our subscriber contribution line, our pledge line.
Please have those lines light up so we can see a last rally before we go out.
We're here until 3.30.
At least I'm here until 3.30.
I think Craig and then Julian might be nodding off at this time.
Didn't really expect them to stay this long.
I didn't either, but it's so much fun.
It is fun.
Radio is incredible.
You can do so much on the air, and I think we're reaching a lot of people tonight,
and that's what's so important is radio is a very intimate medium.
It gets you in your car while you're drifting off to sleep.
We have no idea what people are doing as they listen to us.
We often speculate as to what people might be doing
and how many people are out there and where they are.
But it's good to know that we can say what's on our minds here,
and we certainly have a lot on our minds.
We've been through a lot, and it makes a difference.
People are out there.
They listen.
They respond, and that's what we're asking for tonight in many different ways,
by responding to the radio station, pledging support there,
pledging support to Craig's Defense Fund,
calling in and becoming a part of the dialogue, writing in,
and lending your expertise wherever possible.
Again, pledge line 212-279-3400, call in line 3407.
Good morning.
Hi, is this BAI?
Yes, it is.
Hi, I have a question.
Go ahead.
Oh.
Turn down your radio.
Okay, let me turn down the radio.
I have a question.
I didn't hear most of the show, so I don't know if you covered this earlier or not,
but why is it that most of the hackers you read about are so young?
Is it that there aren't older hackers or that older hackers just keep a lower profile?
Well, you know, my personal feeling is that you see so many young hackers because think of young people.
Think of teenagers.
They're always out doing things that adults tell them not to do, exploring, being mischievous,
and that's really what hacking is sort of about.
It's asking a lot of questions.
It's moving about in places that people tell you to stay away from.
It's just satisfying natural curiosity, and I think that's at its peak in those years.
It doesn't take a computer genius to know how to log into a system,
and people in their 20s and 30s are certainly just as capable of doing that.
However, I think we've been a bit dulled by the constant reinforcement of what society expects from us.
Right, but it seems that hacking would offer a lot of opportunities for people to, you know,
well, to take a lot of money, to enhance their own finances, et cetera, and, you know, doesn't.
That's where the criminal element seeps in.
Yeah, and so I wonder if there are older hackers who are criminals or who, you know, who just. . .
Well, you see, once you become a criminal, you sort of stop being a hacker.
You know, one sort of stops where the other takes over,
because being a hacker means that you're just out there constantly pounding away looking for an answer,
and if you're a criminal, you've pretty much found the answer,
and now you're just using it to benefit yourself, and you're not being creative anymore.
You're just sort of, you know, living off the knowledge that you already have and using it for your own purposes.
Is it that hacking is defined by, you know, sort of a transgressing of boundaries, or is it defined. . .
I mean, my understanding of hacking is that it's sort of going in somewhere and sort of, I don't know.
Yes, it's wandering about in places people tell you to stay away from.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's certainly what it is,
and that, you know, that is not enough to justify calling somebody a criminal, I don't think.
I mean, yeah, maybe they're mischievous.
Oh, I wouldn't think so either.
I just wondered if there are older people who do this kind of thing, and . . .
I'm sure there are many people of all ages that do this kind of thing,
and if the turnout we get at the 2600 meetings is any indication,
it crosses all age lines, all racial lines of all sorts, because people are interested.
As long as you have a shred of curiosity in your body, you have the potential to be a hacker,
and there have been hackers before there have been computers.
Anybody that's questioned the way things are set up and gone out to find their own answers
and learn things on their own, that's what hacking is all about.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting to me that I haven't heard about hacking communities of people, say, in their 30s and 40s,
and I just don't know if they don't exist or whether they just don't get as much.
There's a lot of solitary hackers, you know.
Emmanuel.
Yeah, Craig, go ahead.
Throw something in.
Probably, they're there.
There's not as many of them because a lot of the . . .
and we're talking about computer hackers here,
separate from what Emmanuel described as the hackers before computers.
The technology is fairly young, and so you have a lot of young people in high school and college
with, other than going to classes and, you know, the regular social life and whatever,
don't have a lot of else to do.
They have more time, whereas your older people, your 30s and your 40s,
I mean, they've got real jobs and they've got other real-life concerns
that perhaps their parents aren't taking care of for them.
So perhaps these younger people are finding more and venturing more to look around
just because they have more time to do it.
That sounds like a logical reason.
Mm-hmm.
All right, thank you.
Okay, thanks for calling.
And that's a very good point because a lot of people wonder,
why is it that these kids are so young?
It's something that, think back to when you were that age.
You were a lot more spirited as far as what you were doing,
and you also had this feeling of immortality, which is kind of good for some things.
Like when you were exploring, I guess, in a sick kind of way,
I guess that's why the Army recruits people at that age because they think they're immortal
and they'll just do all these crazy things that anybody with common sense would never do.
But it does lend itself well to exploring, and that's why some of our best hackers are so young.
Yeah, there's an element of play to it.
Julian, you've interviewed a lot of hackers.
What would you say is the average age?
I would judge also from the turnout at your meetings.
The average around 17, I would say. 17, 18.
With a few people up in their 30s and 40s.
Look at John Draper.
Well, he doesn't come to our meetings. He's on the West Coast.
But yeah, for instance, John Draper, one of the original, well, phone freaks,
who started back in the 60s.
But phone freaks and hackers have been around for as long as there have been computers,
but it's true that a lot of the attrition has to do with people going to college or getting jobs and stuff.
And I would suspect that, as the caller was just suggesting that,
a lot of your priorities get refocused as you grow old and shaped towards survival and that type of thing.
I would imagine that a lot of the quote-unquote hacking or computer misdeeds that go on among older people
do involve forms of embezzlement or just forms of sabotage against companies.
It can be a kind of protest against the workplace to just mess with your computer.
I mean, because a lot of people are put in a position in the workplace,
because the workplace is oppressive anyway,
of not seeing their computer as something liberating and exciting,
but as part and parcel of the oppression that they have to deal with in the workplace.
Actually, there was a very good article in The Voice a couple of weeks ago in the electromag section about that.
William, would you say, though, in your opinion, from what you've discovered,
that the types of embezzlement or computer sabotage in these companies
largely comes from people that work for the company or were maybe recently fired from the company,
you know, insiders, as opposed to your teenager that's just poking around?
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
But I think that's also on sort of morally ambiguous ground, too.
I mean, yeah, a criminal's a criminal,
and someone who's just embezzling money from a corporation is,
well, thank God they're not stealing it from Grandma down the street.
But it's hard to get behind that in the way you can get behind, say,
a teenager just out on a sort of electronic joyride
and sort of exercising a healthy disrespect for authority.
But I think the motivations of employees who strike back at their corporations can be examined, too,
and examined for some small shred of political content.
That is true.
I think most of the people who are still teenagers have virtually no element of criminal intent,
you know, of wanting to do something for a particular motivation or some sort of a gain for themselves.
It's strictly curiosity.
However, if, you know, one of the bad results of what's going on these days,
if you continuously tell someone that they're a criminal,
if you continuously tell these kids that they're criminals,
they may very well start acting like criminals because they'll believe that that's what they are
and they'll never be anything more.
It's a frightening thing to think about.
But that is what is happening now.
They're being bombarded with this image from the prosecutors, from the government,
and it could very well have a detrimental effect.
But, Craig, have you seen that in your experience?
That, I mean, my impression is that a lot of, you know, young computer hackers
actually end up just, you know, going into computer security as they get older.
Most of them that I know have, that's their goal, to learn about this stuff
and then end up going into computer security jobs or computer programming, something like that.
Although there's a tendency now to shut them out of those areas.
Yeah, that's what some of these other computer security consultants,
I think people like Gene Spafford,
have suggested that these people should be barred from, you know,
the professions that they would probably be the best in,
probably because they fear the competition.
But as far as trying for money and things, you know, if for no other reason,
computers, they're getting cheaper now, but they didn't always used to be so cheap.
If mommy and daddy can afford to get their kid a computer,
the kid probably doesn't want for too much by means of materialistic gains.
So they don't have any motivation to steal in the first place.
Well, that's never stopped rich people from stealing in the past, but now I see the point.
I don't think most kids playing with computers are into stealing at all
because when you're playing with a computer, it's just, you know,
it's so inspirational to just keep getting answers to the questions you keep asking
to see what happens if you do this.
And it's not really that exciting to just get free money or free products of some sort.
That's, you know, that's passe almost.
It's more interesting to just see what the computer does if you feed it this line.
Well, yeah, that's true, but I think there's also, for very good reasons,
within the hacker community, you know, an attempt to just say,
well, you know, it's just pursuit of knowledge.
You know, I just want, you know, programming, so this is why I got into it.
And, you know, as I said, I think there are good reasons to profess that line,
but I think it's a line.
I think, you know, that the fact that it's illicit, the fact that you're breaking rules,
has a lot to do with the thrill of things.
Which is not to say, you know, which is great because you're breaking rules
and you're not really hurting anybody in my analysis of it.
You're not preying on anybody.
And I think that shows a healthy, you know, just sort of native political instinct.
Although, you know, most hackers you talk to are, you know,
can be all over the political spectrum if they're political at all.
And for the most part, they, you know.
What's unique about the hacker community is that it's not a community at all.
It's a lot of individuals with different feelings on different subjects,
but together, maybe despite what they really want to do,
they do form a community of sorts.
It's just not a unified community.
Yeah, that's my ideal type of community.
Let's go back to the phones.
Good morning.
Yes, I wanted to comment on a couple of things.
Go ahead.
Well, I wanted to ask, first of all, Julian,
did he write the article that was on the front page of The Voice,
I guess it was a month or two ago, about the hackers?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Well, I just wanted to say I thought that was a really excellent piece,
and I was glad that it appeared in, you know, a big forum like The Voice.
Thank you.
There was that, and I guess I should say I've done some computer hacking myself,
and in relation to the last caller, I'm in my early 30s,
and I came into computer hacking completely out of a curiosity about the technology.
And, in fact, I've read excerpts of Frack Magazine,
and I don't really know it well, but I've seen it.
And I've also read 2600 numerous times.
I don't have a subscription, but I keep up with it periodically,
and that's actually 2600 is how I sort of got into it in the beginning.
I went to one of the meetings, a couple of the meetings,
that you guys have at the Citicorp building,
and through that I met a couple of people who became instrumental.
They were almost like mentors for me as far as the computer realm goes.
I don't know if Craig or Julian are familiar with these guys,
but maybe some of the people out there listening are familiar with the names FiberOptic.
Well, maybe we shouldn't give names out, because who knows?
Even if they are fake names, I don't know.
Oh, really?
I'd say that that name isn't even a pseudonym anymore.
Oh, no?
Oh, okay.
But I am familiar with it.
But what is your point?
I mean, you learn lots of things about computers, is that it?
Well, I guess part of what I wanted to say is,
since I knew some people who were like members of the Legion of Doom, as it's known,
and like bona fide hackers, I mean, these guys,
I got a really good look at, a glimpse into this world and participated in it.
And as far as I know, just from my own experience, the whole thing was a quest for knowledge.
It wasn't about abuse of power or corrupting systems or planting Trojan horses
or any of that other stuff that seems to make the news.
The whole thing was, even Legion of Doom itself was not this monstrous conspiracy oriented group.
Most of the people never had even met each other face to face.
The whole thing, as far as my experience was concerned, was a quest for knowledge.
And I think that fact has been overshadowed repeatedly in the media coverage of hacking in general,
because, well, I was going to ask Craig this.
Did he feel like his whole legal battle was a legitimate grievance that the government brought against him,
or was it more, I mean, they ended up dropping the case.
Was it more of a harassment type of thing?
I think, in some ways, it was an effort to send a message to the hacker community itself.
They had brought, I don't remember if he's ever got formally presented, but I got a chance to see him,
diagrams showing Frack and how it was distributed to Legion members, to different hackers across the country.
Clearly, the way they wanted to demonstrate the case was to show the evil of hackers,
and then show how Frack was sort of at the center of it all.
In a sense, I was on trial to represent all hackers, in a way.
Right. I see.
Well, see, that's kind of my perception of it.
When you think about the technical literacy of the public at large,
I mean, most people cannot still program their own VCRs,
let alone comprehend what all the implications are of computer technology,
because it's grown so fast and so quickly.
When you look at the zeal with which cases like Operation Sun Devil have been prosecuted,
when you think about all that, people don't realize that this technology has become,
it's like a priesthood, in a way.
I mean, the people who use it, who depend on it, understand almost nothing of how it works.
And the people who actually understand it are a very small, technical, elite minority in this country.
And every day, more and more of the system is predicated on this frail web of electronic signals.
And when they've gone after the hacker community,
I think, as far as the government's concerned, it's a national security issue.
Because everything, even the president, I mean, if he were to decide to launch nuclear weapons,
codes would be transmitted by certain microwave channels
and then eventually sent out over, largely, commercial telephone lines.
And here are groups of what they consider outlaw bands of kids and pranksters
who are corrupting this.
I can see their whole psychology of why they feel like they have to do this.
But people don't realize, in my opinion, don't realize the reverse danger.
I think it's important to identify people that are elected officials,
that understand what it is that's actually happening,
that understand what hackers are really doing and what they are not doing.
And I think that's a major thing we have to do, is educate our local officials as to what's going on here.
As far as I've been able to tell, there are not many people in positions of governing,
from one end to the other, who really understand what's happening with this technology.
There are a couple.
I think it was Senator Leahy in Vermont.
He's very articulate as far as issues of privacy and technology,
and I don't see him as being taken in by all this hackers equal criminals.
There's also, I believe, a California representative, Don Edwards.
That's true.
I've heard of him.
Now, one thing that Don Edwards has been instrumental in, and this is hilarious,
is asking the FBI or the Secret Service if they have been watching computer bulletin boards.
And their answer to this was,
no, we do not have a list of computer bulletin boards that we have monitored.
However, if you supply us with a name of a computer bulletin board,
we'll tell you the information that we have on them.
So if you think about that statement, that's a complete contradiction.
Of course.
I mean, they have to have a list if they have information on them.
They're just not going to give it to you.
Of course.
I'm sure they do have a list because there's a very seriously perceived threat as far as they're concerned.
But it takes somebody like Representative Edwards or Senator Leahy to address this,
and something can actually be done.
If you can actually get through to somebody on the elected representative level, it will make a difference.
That is really, I think, the only way to go, because that and the media.
If you can educate the media and educate the elected officials, you stand a good chance of actually being heard.
Well, that's true.
That's all true.
But to me, what's really at issue, I mean, the reason that I even got into it in the first place
is because many years ago I realized the implications of all of computer technology
and where it was headed.
The basic reason I got into it is because I know that the threat to privacy of the individual in this country is enormous.
And, in fact, I kind of feel like Big Brother has already been created, and he's asleep now.
Well, let's put it this way.
Hasn't been woken.
Let's put it this way.
The desire for Big Brother is here among many very powerful people.
They want to be able to constantly watch what you're doing.
They want to always know what your urine is containing, what you're thinking, what you're doing, what you're reading.
There's all kinds of things, pressure on librarians to supply lists of books that people are taking out.
Yeah, it's there.
The desire is there, and the technology is very close to being here.
Well, what fools us is that Big Brother is not centralized, too, as he was in 1984.
I mean, you have Big Brothers all over the place now.
As the technology itself decentralizes, you have the Big Brothers.
Now he's your boss.
Yes, but the Big Brothers of today, as opposed to Orwell's Big Brothers, are much more technologically advanced.
Much more.
Oh, yeah.
That's one thing that the system in Orwell's book was rather clumsy.
But if databases talk to each other, if computers can communicate bits of data back and forth, you might have a decentralized system.
But you've got all the elements there for a complete surveillance system.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, there's thousands of databases across the United States that are linked to some degree.
There's only really about four or five laws left that prevent databases from being completely interlinked.
And if I, with my own personal computer, with a concentrated effort of a couple of months or a couple of weeks,
if I could really, with my own ingenuity, put together a profile of anybody, given what little I know,
I mean, I was in the hacker world for about a year under the tutelage of these two guys.
If I could do that, I mean, what the government can do, and what they're leading the public into, a sort of narcosis almost.
I mean, unfortunately, one example is, unfortunately, my bank is Citibank, one of the world's evil banks.
But every few months when I get my statement, I get a little brochure about yet another service I can transact with my automatic color card.
And at the top of the brochure is the statement, one more step to a cashless society.
Now, you have banks, the major banks across the country, who are providing this service and are working to change the psychology,
the mass psychology of the public into accepting more and more these types of transactions.
And for those of us who know, I mean, it's well known that there's a system that's waiting to be implemented in the next few years that will dispense with cash altogether.
I mean, and once that happens, everything else is in place to virtually eliminate individual privacy.
Because if you think about it, once a cashless society is instituted, every single thing that you do, every transaction, will be known, can be known, by somebody.
It's like when you go to the supermarket today, you know, you get an itemized receipt saying exactly what it was you bought.
Sure, and the time.
Yeah, and the time. In fact, you know, it's a very good way to find out the time is walk into a store and buy something these days.
But that information, imagine that information being tapped by another source saying, well, who bought what today? What's this person buying?
Sure.
In fact, if you go into Radio Shack, you know, they always ask you for your name and address.
If you want to buy a battery, you have to give them your whole life story.
Well, you don't have to.
I know you don't have to. I give them fake names all the time.
In fact, it's funny because I see the same person every time I see him, I give him a different name.
I don't think he cares.
No, they do that because they get their commission, but I just tell them, look, I'm on the mailing list. I'm not giving them my name.
But people, see, I was going to ask Craig again, is there any plan to resurrect his magazine at all?
Well, I don't have any plans to do it at the current time.
Yeah.
My only, you know, glimmer of hope I'd like to leave people with is the idea that, you know, maybe a year down the road, you know, things will be different.
Well, I'm sure, I mean, you're facing a mountain of legal debt and whatnot that you have to contend with.
The reason I ask is because, to me, from my perspective, hackers might be the only ones who have any kind of edge in a world where these things that I've talked about become a reality.
And that could be the reason why they're number one on the hit list.
Yeah, and that's certainly my feeling about it.
Sounds like Steve Jackson's book to me.
Yeah, and these guys themselves, they don't even understand, I mean, they don't even understand fully why they're so zealous in prosecuting this.
I think the feds like these cases because they're going after people where they can have somewhat of an assurance that they're not going to get shot.
Well, you wouldn't know it by the way they barge in with their guns drawn.
Yeah, yeah, I've heard.
I mean, imagine what that does to, you know, a young teenager to have his home raided by 20 Secret Service agents with their guns drawn.
Imagine what that does to you.
Sure, I was arrested once many years ago when I was in college by five police officers with drawn guns and I've never forgotten it.
And I would, I guess, agree with...
Hello?
Yeah, I don't know what that is, but go ahead.
What Craig had said a little earlier about sending the chill through the community,
which is I'm sure what the government had really hoped for with Robert Morris' case was to send another chill.
I just hope that the hackers who are out there, I know the community is probably much smaller than it was four or five years ago.
I mean, it was a completely different world from what it is now.
But I hope the people who are out there, who are still interested and still able to do what they can,
continue to pursue it and not fall for these, you know, tactics.
Because in my mind, they're the only ones who may stand a chance to liberate some, not to be overly paranoid, but I mean, it's there.
The whole thing is...
The only reason that it's not here now, Big Brother, and that whole system for dispensing with paper money,
the only reason it's not here now is because the public mind is not ready.
That's the only reason.
And every year, there's more inroads made into changing and manipulating the public consciousness about these things.
Quite true. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks so much for calling, sir.
Thank you.
All right.
Bye.
Let's hope more people stay awake, both, you know, at three in the morning and throughout their lives.
We've lost Julian. Maybe he fell asleep.
No, I'm here.
Oh, then we lost Craig.
Uh-oh.
Oh, boy, that's too bad.
I wonder how that happened.
Well, I do want to call back Craig, so that's it for the phone calls that we'll be taking tonight.
Sorry, everybody else that has been trying to get through.
We're going to go into some music.
We'll be back in about a couple of minutes, I guess, and we'll say goodnight to Craig and give out addresses and phone numbers one more time.
Thanks to everybody that called in, and please, if you really feel strongly about these issues, show your support in other ways.
Show your support to WBAI by calling 279-3400.
Call it now.
Call at three in the morning.
Yeah, show the folks in Tally Room that there's actually people out there now that care enough to call in and pledge some support.
And you can get the subscription to 2600 Magazine for a $55 pledge.
We do take Visa.
We take MasterCard.
And we take pledge levels of ‑‑ wait, what did we take?
Pledges of all levels is what I'm trying to say.
Yes, that's what we do.
It's late, folks.
279-3400.
And let's get those lines ringing.
279-3400 is our telephone number, and we'll be back in just a moment.
Yes!
Right about now, we got Africa from the Jungle Brothers on the wheels of steel.
My sister Harmony right beside me, and IKRS1 on the mic.
Sidney Mills on the keyboards and Dwayne on the engineering.
That's BDP on the CD.
And once again, this song is dedicated to the Heavenly Father, because you know you're real!
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they're running?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Bad mind people and petty robber.
Straighten up your ways or you will suffer.
Well, go around, come around, and this is the law.
The man-made law.
KRS1 ignore.
I walk the streets as a refuge boy.
Very intelligent and full of joy.
Go to a concert and mash up the jam.
People in the world know just who I am.
I am what I am, because I am not soft.
When the blind lead the blind, that's when you're lost.
But this a DJ dealing with negative.
Nonsense messages are what they must give.
BDP strong, because Jah is the strength.
BDP long, because Jah is the link.
BDP together, because Jah is the link.
We are just a rise while the negatives sink.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they're running?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Where can they go?
What can they do?
We are not a front and we are no fraud.
Every hit record comes straight from the Lord.
We live in jail cell and we live in shelter.
If you help yourself, well Jah will help you.
Look to no man, but love everyone.
Stand on your own and work till you're done.
Follow the commandments that Jah set forth.
Because man made laws, made man law.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
They need you in their lives.
They know your love is right.
You're the inspiration.
That sweet revelation.
All their hope and their salvation.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
They need you in their lives.
They know your love is right.
You're the inspiration.
That sweet revelation.
All their hope and their salvation.
Where can they go?
Where can they turn when they hear your name?
That fire burns their very souls.
What can they do?
What can they say?
They can't live without your love.
Another day.
Where do they go?
What do they do?
Where do they turn?
What can they say?
Where do they go?
What do they do?
Without you.
Where do they go?
Without you.
What do they do?
Without you.
And it's music from Boogie Down Productions'
Ghetto Music, The Blueprint of Hip Hop here
on WBAI in New York.
We want to thank those folks calling in
to show their support.
Join them.
Join them.
You'll feel great about it.
212-279-3400.
And again, this is the last possible time
that we can say this.
The last possible time that you can pledge
$55 and get that year of 2600 Magazine
and become part of this whole unique world
of computer hackers and technology people
and learn about privacy issues
as the last caller was talking about.
We've been talking with Craig Neidorf,
the former publisher of the now defunct
Frack Magazine, and also Julian DeBell
from the Village Voice Magazine.
I want to thank both of you for staying up so late.
I really didn't think you guys would last
the whole show, but you did.
And lots of interesting things to share
with the audience.
I suppose we should give out the addresses
one more time for people that want more information
and want to contribute and help out.
So I'll hand it over to you, Craig.
Great.
Okay, the last time I'm going to plug this.
Okay, if you're interested in sending
any kind of contribution or correspondence
whatsoever, please send it to
Sheldon Zenner, Z-E-N-N-E-R,
Katten, Muchen, and Zavis,
that's K-A-T-T-E-N,
M-U-C-H-I-N,
and Zavis, Z-A-V-I-S,
at 525 West Monroe Street,
Suite 1600, Chicago, Illinois,
60606.
Any checks or money, what have you,
please make that out to Katten, Muchen, and Zavis,
but be sure to make some sort of indication,
like on the memo or with the letter,
that the money should be allocated
to the account of Craig Nidor,
otherwise it'll just go right into the general fund.
And we don't want that.
To the attention of Sheldon Zenner.
Craig, I understand your hesitancy
in pitching, as it is,
but it's a very good cause, folks.
Craig has really been through the mill here
as far as protecting his rights,
but in a way he's protecting everyone's rights
by sacrificing all of the things
that he has sacrificed over the last few months.
It sure would be nice if, you know,
this did not leave a permanent scar,
i.e. bankruptcy or something along those lines.
So please, if you are in the position
where you can help out,
I think we all owe it to each other
to help each other out when things like this happen.
Craig, I do want to thank you, though,
for standing up to all of this
and remaining strong throughout it all.
You've been an inspiration to a lot of people,
and I sure hope it pays off in the end.
And thanks for being with us tonight.
My pleasure.
And Julian DeBell, thanks very much for staying up
and for writing those good articles in The Village Voice.
We'll be seeing more of them, I hope.
Yeah, I'll be keeping this up.
And let me point out that Emmanuel here
has been a central figure in all of this.
I mean, you know, he really got the word out
about Craig's case
and really tipped me off to the whole situation
that was going on there.
And, you know, whatever support there's been
and really defense owes a lot to him.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank both of you for being here tonight.
And thanks to all the listeners for calling in
and for showing their support.
If you still want to take advantage of the 2600 offer,
it's going to be literally a few seconds more.
212-279-3400.
Remember to show your support for WBAI, though,
throughout this upcoming fall membership drive,
as we do need you to survive,
and we need each other to get by.
Thanks again to everybody, and I'll see you again,
I guess, in a couple of weeks.
I'm not quite sure what the schedule is.
It's confusing even me at this point.
But again, thanks to everybody, and we'll see you soon.
We'll keep you updated as to what's going on.
Good night.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high
There's a land that I heard
Once in a lullaby
This is listener-supported, non-commercial,
community barnyard radio, Pacificus WBAI 99.5 FM, New York.
Me and Martha took a honeymoon
Down south by the Silver River
She was 18 and I was 22
♪ Now it's up to two, one of the young folks to the doorstep
♪ Hey, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old dogs can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪♪
♪ We've had a time to forget the whole thing
♪ Wow
♪ Thought it over, thought we ought to swing
♪ Wow
♪ Raisin' the sound, man, I really took things
♪ Wow
♪ Changed the wings, cocked the neck
♪ I said we'll dance to these old songs
♪ Now, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old dogs can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪ Six-pack narrow on a bottom shoe
♪ Wow
♪ Eight-teeter-teeter, twenty-three skid-toe
♪ Wow
♪ We ain't bought for just a heavy fork
♪ Wow
♪ Well, out the boot, go
♪ The rest of you wanna go south
♪ Now, did you get that
♪ Out the boot, don't go
♪ There ain't nothin' that it can't fix
♪ Same people
♪ Old cops can't learn new tricks
♪ Same streets
♪ New streets are lined with bricks
♪ So out the boot, don't go
♪♪
♪ Well, Mr. City Policeman
♪ Please let me walk on by
♪ Please don't check my ID
♪ Cause I'm high
♪ I ain't got nobody
♪ I can't prove who I am
♪ Mr. City Policeman
♪ Be a friend
♪ Yes, I'm all alone
♪ In your big city
♪ I got no place to lay my head
♪ Isn't it a pity, uh-huh
♪ Mr. City Policeman
♪ Please let me walk on by
♪ Please don't check my ID
♪ Cause I'm high
♪♪
♪ Yes, I'm all alone
♪ In your big city
♪ I got no place to lay my head
♪ Isn't it a pity, uh-huh
♪ Mr. City Policeman