And welcome to everybody on YouTube
Manual over here Kyle. Did you make it sort of? Yeah, I'll check those levels for everybody because I know that sometimes
It's sometimes it's a problem. Sometimes things are low. We seem to have lost Alex. I'm not exactly sure what happened with him
We did we did lose Alex. He said he's in England. He's very tired. He's had a long day
He just ran out of juice couldn't last until 8 o'clock to say good night. Huh? All right
well
news to me
And and that voice there Rob T firefly along with Gila. I assume you've both made it into YouTube land
We sure did good good, and I assume we're on YouTube, which is always nice. We are and on YouTube
We sound okay. Our levels are good. Okay, fine
Let's just open up the phone lines because we haven't done that since last week
Our phone number is we don't have a call already. Do we Kyle? Sorry? I just got excited you
Did you pick up the phone is somebody there? No, okay, I just I just pulled it off hook
Let me at least yeah, you know what take the phone off hook because we take the phone off hook
Then nobody can jump the line. Yeah, that's a good idea
8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack is our phone number. I just want to I
Hear that. No, leave the phone off the hook. I want to warn you
We're gonna give 15 seconds and I'm gonna put back on it's bleeding through
That should be part of the warning which is
There's still some things with our auxiliary returns so that everybody can hear everybody and I'm about to bring up on the board
Oh God, so it's a lot louder. Yeah, so just bear with us
we haven't quite paid off the technician to come and
Check our work or whatever that entails. I don't get artificial intelligence
I was thinking small woodland creatures, but whatever
All right. I'm going to open the line now
Okay line it has been opened. We've given out the phone number. You have all the information that you need to
To participate in the program
We'd like to hear your thoughts on what we've been talking about last hour. Maybe some
suggestions on things to
Do with artificial intelligence or maybe some other subject altogether. I'm can I just say I'm really more interested in the
deeper sort of further back
Philosophical aspects we've been kind of down there. Well, we can do this so we can do that. I love it
it's I love that for us, but
The whole like where's this going? What's the point as I said earlier? How will this be wielded upon us?
How can we wield back? I think you're really
Angling for that like, okay, let's dive in everybody's doing this. Let's do it better more faster harder more messed up
I was talking about poisoning training data. So we're already there as far as like, how do we?
Adversarially approach this but I'm really keen to
hear other people's philosophy I
I'm I'm not gonna lie. Like maybe this is more of me personally lately, but
If we were living in hell on earth, would we be able to tell?
and
You know things like that like there's a lot about this. I don't know that
We've fully thought through that's the point but like
it's a little depressing as we were playing with it, and I don't I
Don't know how to grapple with that and I can't tell if it's other things that are
more upsetting to me these days and just compounding this but I
wonder will this
Cause depression like in the song
Telling you you don't fit past the test, you know
And the outro and that songs from 1990 that songs from 1980 by the way
It's a great song and I'm just really concerned. Will this cause depression? Will this lead to mass suicides?
I mean that kind of level of
replacing people or putting putting
all this emphasis from
Likely very smart people working on this
That a lot of us probably don't appreciate or wouldn't like if we met them
and
You know, what are their motivations? I'm sure they're altruistic and so forth, but
How is this gonna be I mean cuz it's gonna fit into sort of the messy
reality of
Class and you know all the things in in the real world that make it frightening more frightening than having
artificial intelligence and anyway
I just I want to hear more of all the wonderful things people think got promised
This is gonna do instead of going to thing
you know the sort of upsetting place because there's been a lot of reactionary like upset and people are blown away and oh gosh and
but
what are we thinking about why this is this just a module of the
Anthropomorphized robot that we all want to come and live with us
Well, I think I think the question that we're all asking is a simple one is artificial intelligence a good thing
And I asked that question and artificial intelligence says this
Artificial intelligence AI has the potential to bring many benefits such as increased efficiency and automation of certain tasks improved decision-making
And once let's let's give artificial intelligence a equal say here and the development of new technologies
However, it also raises important ethical and societal questions such as job displacement and privacy concerns
Ultimately whether AI is a good thing depends on how it is developed and used
It is important to ensure that AI is used for the benefit of all and that its risks and limitations are understood and addressed
Okay, start with the second official intelligence agrees with you
Start with the second thing how many ethical concerns?
do we not address as is like we're not exactly like
We're not exactly approaching ethical issues and fixing them right away. It is it takes I mean we we are
grappling with the consequences of
decades of moral
turpitude, I don't know
ethical quandaries and failings of
Humanity and the first part
Efficiency for what more consumption more waste more profits. I mean, what do you mean efficiency? I
Mean going to ask it that for a system, that's one thing but again
humanity is
supposed to be an important part of society and I just wonder you know, maybe in
In
Architecture or something or in code sure, but again, it's it's arbitrary
It's it's not going to like Gila was testing. It's not gonna answer
From a particular moral stance necessarily or if it does it's biased because it was trained that way
This is not sentience. This is as we've said a puzzle a toy. It's something we're helping or we're slaving away
Making better or something or trying stuff that people that are paid to
Kind of nudge it with our little
Quandaries and our little quizzing, you know, they're they're gonna maybe guide it throw stuff out to what end though
So, please call and tell us
What's the point of the phones been ringing? So let's let's try to answering. Okay, what do we have?
And good evening. You're on off the hook overtime
Hi Emmanuel, it's rebel again, what a surprise your first caller again
You're in Florida as as you threatened to be in this week and welcome to Florida
What part of Florida are you in if you don't mind telling us near Jacksonville? Okay. All right. That's that's definitely a city there
Any thoughts on artificial intelligence?
You know, I was thinking of what I there are, you know artificial intelligence have its place
You know, I don't think they should be like taking jobs and doing things like, you know, writing essays for people and writing thoughts
I mean, I could just you know, maybe you could ask artificial intelligence what it thinks of me and my calls and you know
Maybe I can make a song about it. Maybe I could you know make a some sort of a song and maybe it says that
Maybe you can make it say that some you know
It's just like these deep fake things that I've seen on the news where they I don't know how it worked
But you say you're somebody else's something, you know
You say the Sun you're some some famous person that comes out gay or something when he's really not and you know
I just I just asked artificial intelligence if
If it knows rich the rebel and it answered me said I am NOT aware of anyone by the name of rich the rebel
It is possible that this person is a private individual and not a public figure without more context
It is difficult for me to provide any information about them
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to give them all the information that we have and I'm gonna ask
From off the hook, right?
Yeah, and and you know all sorts of other private information and I'll feed that to the artificial intelligence and then I'll ask what do
You know about rich the rebel and I'm sure it'll be a much better answer
Okay
When I was in California, I remember when you were in California in the 90s when you and I when you were on off the hook
He said that they put the in front of a highway. No, it was like the 15 and the five. Yeah and taking
Yeah, they do that. They do that. They do that in Canada, too
If you go to Canada, you know the same thing. Yes
Listen to what happens when I call the White House. What hold on. Oh, no
Hold on
He calls us puts us on hold it's just
unbelievable unbelievable
They're gonna say switchboard probably. I don't know if this is a live call or a tape call or something from his childhood
Maybe we don't know
Or if it's an AI
Or if he's an AI that would explain a lot
At some point you have to say this is long enough to be on hold, you know
How long is that? What is what is the cutoff? I
Think we're past the cutoff to be honest. It's probably blocked. Yeah, they're probably like please don't call anymore
Yeah, but why would we be on holy? We'll come back to us and tell us that wouldn't he I don't know
Maybe he thinks that we're three-wayed in and we're not that's that's what happens a lot
Well, it would have been great if we had a little context before we're just kind of threw us into the situation, didn't he?
Yeah, there was no joy to hang up. No. No, I want to see how well this goes
eventually something's gonna happen and that's kind of my thing as I like to see what happens if
You just have to be a little bit patient
You know
Remember the old days where you're on the phone with your friends late at night and somebody would have three-way and they'd connect you to
Somebody else and you know call waiting would kick in and sometimes they forget
There you are. Yeah, I kept us on hold for a minute. I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened
Yeah, no when it says it says please dial the following digits one two
And you know each time you call it it says to dial different digits like I'll call it another time
I'll say dial please dial the following digit two three a minute. Hold on
Hold on the White House is telling you to dial digits
Right. Why is the White House telling you to dial digits?
I bet it's a it's I don't know when you and when you dial like two or two four five six one one one one the
White House Commonwealth. What was the number? What was that number again?
Area code two zero two four five six one one one one
Well one four one four is the number that I would prank. I mean call when I was a you know younger. Oh
Try to try that one. I don't know what what four ones is. I thought you said two one two before it's yes
Two or two is the area code, but one four one four
If you're looking to reach the president, that's the number you call
Of course the odds of you doing that are fairly slim. We used to call
Ask for Ronald Reagan, you know, he says Ronald there and oh, no, he just left like if he was there
They say hey, Ronnie got a call from some kid
Yeah, but I think I don't know if you could try it there
I'm gonna I'm gonna call the White House. Now. That's that's what I'm gonna do with my night. No, thank you
This was your idea. You do it
One one one one is the main switchboard in one four one four
I
Thought is the office of the president, but what do I know?
You know, I haven't done this in a long time
They might have changed their numbers anything else rebel because we have other people lined up waiting to get on the air
lined up
We're in Florida, let's see
What else? Oh radio stations are annoying because I hear the same when I was in California. I had the same
It's an iHeart radio everything's an iHeart radio station now
Yeah, that's pretty awful, I I don't like the name I don't like anything about it I'm with you on that
You prefer tune in and prefer. I'm down with tune in. Yeah, really?
Okay, much much more so than than the iHeart. Uh-huh
Um, what else? Yeah, I'm in the face for recognition with the person whether they could
I mean, it's good for like if somebody's banned from like if somebody shoplifted from a like a supermarket and they have artificial intelligence to
They have artificial intelligence to say hey this person's here and kick him out or whatever but to do that in an arena
yeah, that's
They're just calling attention to how
What lousy people they are they really are doing that?
Well, it's also wielding something that they can afford to do, you know, it's like a little bit of a flex, you know
Yeah, we're talking about, you know technology and how
Technology is abused and they're demonstrating right away. Hey, we have the technology. The first thing we're gonna do is abuse it
Yeah, it's like oh we can do it and we will and what are you gonna do about it? Uh-huh, and
It's just it's a pretty now
I think four five six one four one four does the same thing the police are two digits
Well, I have no idea what that's all about. Maybe
Maybe they don't have the staff to you know be on the switchboard
Maybe they want to make sure that you don't get scam calls because I've been getting calls from not nine one seven and
You know three digits which my phone number because of nine one seven and you know
It's another I want to make the thing fit. Would you like this is an important message from Medicare?
Hello, I'm not even 40 years old. I don't want nothing from Medicare. Yeah, there's a lot of those
different like
Health adjuster or health this health that trying to get your attention on this and it's it's
Well, you wish they profiled you better I mean
When I call the number it doesn't go in it says we're sorry to call you need you know, yeah, they're boiler room
Uh-huh
All right, well this has been great I think any closing remarks you'd like to make
Well, I'll be back in New York City next week. Oh, how exciting
Yeah, no, I'm
Well, yeah, you missed that one but there's another one coming up next next month
Right in New York City and I'll be at that one
In fact, I'm asking artificial intelligence right now
If it knows when the next 2600 meeting is because I don't have the ability to figure that out on my own
I'm sorry. I do not have knowledge about the schedule of the 2600 meetings
2600 is a magazine an organization that focuses on technology and computer related topics
They have meetings around the world
But the schedule and location of these meetings can vary to find out
When the next 2600 meeting is you should check the 2600 website or contact the local chapter of the organization
That wasn't very helpful. What can you ask?
I was artificial intelligence, you know, like nasty things like may I have sex with you or I'm not gonna do that
I'll be blacklisted. Oh
well
But you do that on your time, so
All right, good hearing from you. You should do that to Alexa. That's a good idea. Yes. Yes
Let's make more enemies in the digital world. That's a real problem. It is people, you know bond and form relationships and
this
Chat GPT thing people were
Not to use it for therapy
Mode handset. Wait a minute
We're switching to hang up mode, so thanks for calling
And that was that was rebel calling us from Jacksonville, Florida
Our phone is now open again 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5
I'm I just can't wait till the Hells Angels have facial recognition, you know, and everybody's using it. Uh-huh
Can't get into the club. Uh-uh
You're not a pledge. Well the way I view it every bit of technology. I
Want to be able to play with that as well, you know
There are so many videos on YouTube right now where they they they use
Computerized voices and you don't realize until you're five minutes in that's a computer talking until they they pronounce something
I just said the word computer and that's that's our wake word for the Alexa device and it just triggered
I can't say certain words
but basically
They they mispronounce a word in a YouTube video and in your eyes. Oh my god. That's not a human speaking
They're they're that good and they're getting better. It started
I think a lot of the narrated like tick-tock uses it
there's a lot of like reels type things where people do little explainers and I
Swear this like this basically emerged out of people doing their homework assignments like oh look
I made a little instructional video or something or I don't know or or the whole YouTube
How to kind of genre and this narration became similar to like
Text-to-speech on the old the old old Apple products
Was it command H you could you could have it speak something that you typed into?
The text editor. Wow. It's been a while. Go ahead Gaila. No, it's true when I was oh my goodness a kid
Trying to get text-to-speech
To say my name and what it took
To spell it correctly in a way that text-to-speech could say my name
Correctly. My name is four letters long
and in order for
The text-to-speech speaker to get it, right. I had to give it eight letters
But it did eventually work
Wow
Okay, I'll front number 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5
Do we have a phone call and then we don't okay, this could be a short show
I mean, I'm all in favor of that. I just asked artificial intelligence here the
The chatbot to write a scene about from a film about hackers. So now it's it's writing a movie for me
It's got the format down interior abandoned warehouse night
The warehouse is dimly lit with only a few flickering fluorescent lights a group of hackers
Sit huddled around a large table in the center of the room there. Oh, wait, it went off the screen. Hold on a second
I got it. It's writing so fast. It's really enthused by this
Huddled around a large table in the center of the room their faces illuminated by the glow of their computer screens
hacker one
Typing furiously. Okay. I'm in I've breached the firewall hacker two looking over hacker one's shoulder. Nice work now
Let's see what we can find hacker three sipping from a can of soda. Remember be careful
We don't want to get caught man. This is good stuff
Hacker one navigates through the files in the computer his fingers moving quickly over the keyboard hacker one excitedly. Look at this
I found some classified information hacker two impressed Wow. This is huge hacker three nervously guys
We need to get out of here now
Suddenly the sound of police sirens can be heard outside the warehouse
Hacker one panicking they found us quick erase all traces of our activity because that's that's always what you say
traces of our activity
The hackers frantically try to cover their tracks as they hear the sound of police breaking down the door
The screen goes black fade to black the end
All right. We just need to finance this and we've got a hit
You're supposed to not make traces in the first place do we have a call? Yes. All right. Good evening
You're on off the hook overtime. Go ahead
Hi, I wasn't gonna call this week, but I just finished the article during the outro of the radio show
And you'll never guess what it's on
Okay for it. You have to give us some some context here
Who is this?
Okay, and you're writing an article for 2600 it's good that you got it, okay
So and and you want us to guess what the article is about and of course the guest would be artificial intelligence
I am NOT panicked about being replaced by AI
You know, I could just type right now and have that article written in a few seconds by artificial intelligence
Well, I did have
Okay, your artificial intelligence proofreader nice
Well
It wasn't
But it was it's another AI program called character dot AI where you talk to
fictional or
historical or celebrity
Models of you know of AI and
Stuff and this was the main character from ghost in the shell
had some thoughts about
Why people are so nervous about AI replacing them
Okay, it's a natural reaction yeah, because it's a it's a thing that's sort of
mimicking your behavior and you know, I think people have a little bit of a
deep reaction
animal reaction
Yeah, I mean and this is and this is one of the main arguments, you know against the AI art and
You know because AI artists can copy the style of a human artist
Yeah, and you know that like you talked like you talked about on the radio show. I I saw a
Story that Getty is actually suing or really upset at another AI art company
Because
They trained their system on publicly available
previews of their
proprietary licensable art so
in other words stuff that's probably watermarked and they were able to maybe
Train it to ignore the watermarking, but they were still able to scrape the web for those images
And you know, I've had friends. I've had acquaintances people. I
Knew have other projects where they're scraping the web for things and then down the road. They kind of realize wow if I monetize this a
It's unethical because I'm taking money. I don't know who
Is actually using this stuff and they eventually they didn't want to continue with what they were doing
Just because it's there on the web and you organize it
It doesn't necessarily mean it's okay
You know because they're not really cloning things or copying it like like stable diffusion, right
it it was trained on the data set of
Billions and billions of images
But the but that and the language model all fits within four gigabytes
So every image is stored in
In less than a byte
Right. This is probably
Sort of like a fingerprinting or a way of
A way of representing the data in the image, right?
Right. Well neural nets aren't actually computer programs
right their simulation of
neurons
Right and they learn like we learn they get impressions and
They learn through repetition and reward and punishment
They don't have logic functions. They don't do arithmetic. They don't
Do computational tasks?
It's like it's a stimulus and response kind of thing
You
Know people get confused because because they come with software so they can run on computers
But the actual simulation isn't a computer program
Actually, it's a simulation
synapses and neurons
It's true and actually and that actually comes across in these
Large language models like chat GPT and stuff and why they're not a substitute for search engines
Like when you were playing with it and got facts wrong, right, right?
You know and some people try to use it for
To generate computer code
That's true or math and logic puzzles and does poorly on those
Again, because it doesn't actually know how to do math. It's a language model
Yeah
It's not a substitute for a search engine and people are trying to use it like that
Yeah, you get some very interesting results. You definitely do it's trained on the Internet
It's basically like a boomer who watches Fox News all day. Oh, I hope not. I hope not
Okay, but not specific to Fox News
It's just it's just very
Until they're punished
They make stuff up and they hallucinate and that's why you get these errors
Speaking of making stuff up. I have sent the script that we're developing tonight to the hacker movie script
I've sent that in for a rewrite. I asked for
For it to be more David Lynch style
Let me know what you guys think of this
This is what came back instead of the interior being a warehouse interior dark smoky room night
The room is dimly lit with only a few flickering fluorescent lights a group of hackers
It huddled around a large table in the center of the room their faces illuminated by the strange
Pulsing light emitted from the computer screens. I don't think that was there before
The air is thick with the smell of burning incense and the sound of strange discordant music. Oh, yeah
This is a Lynch film for sure
Hacker one typing furiously eyes wide and unblinking. I've breached the firewall
I can feel it hacker two also typing but with a look of intense concentration on their face. Yes. Yes, I can see it, too
it's like a
door opening
Hacker three sitting back in their chair staring off into space. We must be careful. There are
forces at work here
Suddenly the room is filled with a blinding light and a voice that seems to come from all around them
The voice deep and menacing you are not welcome here leave now or face the consequences
Hacker one terrified. What is that? Who are you voice laughing?
I am the guardian of this place and you are trespassing hacker two trembling with fear. We didn't know we'll leave
We'll leave right now hacker three voice barely a whisper. But what if we can't?
What if we're trapped here?
The voice laughs again and the light grows brighter and brighter until the hackers are forced to shield their eyes
When they open them again, they find themselves standing in a barren desolate wasteland
The computer screens in front of them are dark and lifeless
Hacker one whispering. Where are we?
Hacker two shaking their head. I don't know
But I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore
Fade to black the end. Yeah, I think this thing's getting better. You introduced David Lynch into it. All of a sudden you got a movie
What do you think John? Yeah
You just got to give it the right prompt and sometimes magic comes out when I was researching this article
you know, I was playing with these systems and
Sometimes it seems like real creativity comes out of these things
Yeah
You know a lot of the creativity also comes from what you feed it, you know, and and how you ask it to express itself
Yeah, and that's and that's the real thing going forward is that it needs to
We need to have a relationship
With AI it's not it's not us versus them
You know like adversarial it's what we can do together
You know, we're we're a tool using species and right now AI is just another tool
You you know, but to speak to some of the fears
That were expressed before he started taking calls. I think that was was it Alex?
Kyle Oh
Kyle
Oh Kyle, but
You know, it's like like one of the main pushes in this article that I spent the last few weeks writing is
that
We don't have to be fearful of being replaced by AI
because as
Individuals as human beings each one of us are unique. It's like
When I was young, I would watch mr. Rogers neighborhood and
At the end of every show he would say there's nobody else like you
Right, you're unique and special just the way you are
You know and that that was that you know that that put in the soup of my brain
Formative and I really believe that deep in my soul because that was reiterated to me five days a week as a young child
And it still holds to today because every human being is a
unique individual
That means we're not
replaceable
That means we're not interchangeable. I
Hear what you're saying
But I'm curious more about how other tool using humans will use this on other humans
I'm not necessarily as concerned about being replaced entirely. I do think there are things like depression and and
You know when you tell people they're confused about things that you know people internalize that when you tell people
They're confused about how their own brain works. I mean
Great. And again, this is like the knowledge the class
classification of knowledge like oh, I don't understand and
or the
The idea that you know, you could be outpaced I think that that challenges humanity and it's it's
That relationship that you're articulating that I don't think there is enough of yet
Because that could be positive in the way you're saying but the fact remains
People forming relationships with this tool will use this on other people in the context of human class systems
And I think that is something to be concerned about especially given how often we fail in
Ethical and moral dilemmas as is there's a lot of unfinished work there and even outright
Refusals to acknowledge that kind of stuff
So that that disturbs me
So that that disturbs me we need I mean, well we need to push against and tear down the whole system
really
you know, it's like and
I
Mean and that's something that's been part of the hacker subculture for as long as I've been a part of it since
the late 80s
You know, we've always been anti-authoritarian
And
Not like in being told what to do but also cooperative, you know collectivist
You know, we you know, we form groups after collectives
And make common cause
You know the thing like there's oppressive systems in the world
and
So it's like it's like what William Gibson says the street finds its own uses for technology
and
AI can be empowering for the disenfranchised
Like we don't have to let it
Just be the domain of the powerful we can find our own uses for it
So a lot of these tools are free and open source
You know, they're not behind paywalls
You
Yeah, that's a fantastic way to look at it and I just really hope that that spirit is engendered in
Generations that are coming up
That maybe don't have as much perspective or they can't find their way. They can't find their way even in our community
They're lost. They're not
They're not
Finding collectives that function that meet their needs, you know, they're
Personalities or there are
Motives that aren't necessarily necessarily as altruistic
Because the hacking community is not a monolith certainly is not and I do think there are some there's some gaps
you know, I I I do hear you I want for our community to
have more solidarity to create more functioning spaces that all people can access and
and and and help
create
Critical thinkers and people that question the system proper, but I think after a while, you know
when you move out and you start
Participating in wage slavery. Well
Some of that goes out the window people stop caring about a lot of that and it's uh, yeah, it's a real problem
It's a real problem. Yeah
Yeah, we gotta we gotta do things like
Not have it be wielded upon us faster than and and not have it be the the
Tools of the so-called privileged or so we have to do that faster
And I think if we're just doing dance videos or if people don't understand
how
Functioning communities are necessary to face all of this
We might be too late in some respects. And anyway, that's my opinion
Yeah, I'm I'm right with you, I mean this is this is why I'm writing for the magazine why
Why I post on Macedon and Twitter why I'm trying to build a platform, you know, it's for this kind of
activism towards
social justice and tearing down
the systems of oppression and
moving the hacker community towards a more egalitarian
Egalitarian collective sort of community that that values justice and equality
In
In community
As we've all been very isolated during the pandemic, you know me more than most because I've had to take these
Immunosuppressive drugs that make me immunocompromised. So I'm very vulnerable
Mm-hmm
Yeah, the distance has been really getting to me lately I've been reflecting a lot on the last year last two years and
seeing I think in contrast seeing a lot of the media change like when the pandemic hit a lot of the media changed like ads
and everything was about
staying safe and being good to each other now a lot of the ads are traveling and getting out there and everybody having fun and
all that and I
am
I'm getting really affected by a lot of that because
There still is isolation. There still is hurt
there still is a lot of catching up to do a lot of lost time with friends and family or just
Society still being in dysfunction and broken in certain ways and I I've had you know
People are still getting sick and still dying
I mean look at all the celebrities that caught bad cases of Kovat after the Golden Globes because there were no mass
Mm-hmm
Yeah, well, I mean as there's a
Precautions that still should be taken and obviously everybody should be caught up on their vaccines
I think that's the biggest problem as people who well, you know got the vaccine and then didn't get the boosters afterwards
You can't really expect it to keep working for years
You do have to get the boosters that have been proven to be effective and most of the people who have gotten sick
Have not gotten the boosters. That's that's unfortunate
Johnny good hearing from you and we look forward to seeing that article. Please keep writing
Well, we have humans here that do that too, so
Whatever Grammarly doesn't doesn't catch to go catch. Yeah, leave a little work for us. We got to feel useful
I'll mail it off tonight or tomorrow. Awesome. All right, you keep doing what you're doing
All right, you too take care
And we're gonna see if we can squeeze in one more call 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 Rob. He has me
Yeah, well while we're waiting for that next call. I had a question for you Emanuel because this all raises an interesting
State of affairs you're a publisher. You're an editor and
Say you got an article you enjoyed the article you
printed the article, you know granted the submitter of the article their recompense and everything and
Then you come to learn that that person
used
What we're using now used an AI to write the article for them
What what would then be your feelings about it?
Robot justice, I don't know
This is new territory
I'd like to think that we'd be able to tell that something was written in a certain style that
Didn't quite feel human, but as I as I've been mentioning tonight
The software is getting better and better. It's gonna become harder to do that
This is not something that is confined to us. Every magazine editor is going to be worried about something like this every every
newspaper editor, you know hires people
To to tell stories, you know and and and report on things they have to worry if people are taking shortcuts
There's no real. This is what I hope
People will feel this there's no real satisfaction in just hitting return and watching something spit out and then just claiming it as your own
You know, you might think that's satisfying. It's not, you know writing something though that you created yourself seeing that show up in print
There's no replacing that feeling
So as long as there are people out there that recognize that and that are striving to accomplish that
I'm not really worried about robots and and artificial intelligence taking over
I do think that
Too many people will try to take shortcuts
Throughout their lives and and they'll be the ones losing out more than anybody else. So, you know, I think
really, the biggest penalty is the moment you
you you basically hit return and and and
You know represent this as as your work when it's something that you know, you're cheating yourself out of actually accomplishing something
It's all very interesting
Some thoughts that I've had as a someone who's seen a few articles or or more
It it is
it's a possibility that
You might as a publisher want to ask people and I know this is going on in other in other
Publications you would ask
that people disclose things that have been generated all in all or or parts of things that have been generated as
Was mentioned
This article that the caller was working on is got a section that that was written in an automated way
So sort of an honor system, I think would be a good request
There's talk of banning certain things and I read articles today about
Curriculums being rewritten in colleges. I think the Times had a story that was along those that's where there's really gonna be abuse
well and
Professors already run things through like anti-plagiarism. They have software that they run
So you have to imagine there's gonna be a huge market in academia for AI powered
Plagiarizing software that can detect robots and so forth. So AI working against AI it's gonna be robot wars
yeah, and and again or as was mentioned a
Professor with a relationship with an AI that can help them
Find the students who are writing authentic works. The other thing that came to mind
from what Emanuel was saying
Is a lot of the content in our publication has
Code right? It has distinct code that are examples. It has
sometimes
Figures graphic
images with with captions
We also often have more academic writing that has citations that has footnotes
People are referencing things in concrete ways
I have not seen one thing we've produced that produced footnotes with links and in the proper format
That kind of stuff tonight. You mean tonight? Yeah, not yet. I'm not trying to challenge people, but I am saying that
You know, even even if they're able to generate a body of text that sort of makes sense
There's laziness that will come in they may may not even read the whole thing. There's there's little things like that. And of course
Integrating it with citations or graphics that makes sense the code that actually relates to what the body topic is
There's an inherent work in making all of that looks slick enough that we wouldn't be able to tell so my hope is that
We might be able to see
See evidence or that we will train
Ourselves and become better at spotting stuff that really doesn't belong if that helps answer
Yeah, I'm talking of robot wars. It's already happening
There is a tool that was made by a
Person named Edward Tian who is a student at Princeton and this tool is called GPT zero dot me
That's GPT. No GPT z e r o dot m e and this is a solution that uses the same
Sort of chat bot code to detect whether a chunk of text you have
Was generated by AI and so the the the arms race has already begun
Oh cool, and and to that end
one thing in our earlier conversation I was thinking of specifically with academia, but a
tool in our pocket is
Anyone who has written for us before that has not been using this could be compared if they submitted something
And even readers people that have the best of or that have all the back issues
Could say okay this author
Presented as one way how to certain writing style and they've completely changed, you know
those kinds of things perhaps could even train that we could
run a submission through a database of previous writers and based on their name or their their body work, but it's it's
Creating a lot of work. I don't know what you think
I mean, it's it's it's crazy to see artificial intelligence trying to emulate humans like when we asked for David Lynch
Version of a hacker film it created something that is lynchian, you know
so it knows something about writing style and trying to imitate that writing style of
Humans, that's freaky. I think David Lynch would actually be freaked out by that and it takes a lot to freak out David Lynch
We have one more call. Okay, let's take one more call and good evening. You're on off the hook overtime
Hey
So-called David from so-called, Oregon so-called David from so-called, Oregon, okay
Well, I believe both of those things probably are real. So
Yeah, welcome
Hey, I love this topic and
It's it's really challenging
What it means to be human what it means to be creative
Mm-hmm
but like what the cow was just saying about, you know have to have to honor systems and
I don't know norms on how to use this stuff. Like when you label
Photos in a magazine is yes. This has been photoshopped
mm-hmm and
Yeah
earlier caller was talking about, you know cooperative versus
Authoritarianism, you know, it's like I think cooperation is our human superpower and
We
We need to kind of fall back on that it's like
Computers don't have relationships. So at least not yet. Yes
Yeah, so we need to strengthen that because you know people want to
Want to give artists money really? Mm-hmm
no, they don't like having them shafted like like there's there's some aspects of this that kind of remind me of
you know the
Spotify and things like that where
You organize human creativity you you get you put yourself in between them and the customers
You the artist gets the the creators get you know pennies on the ground and you know
The person with their hand on the money spigot decides that they need the biggest cut
Yeah, and
this training of AI systems
really, it just seems like a
Very sophisticated shell game, you know, ultimately it's just forming
mathematical inferences
From previous creative works and saying okay make more stuff like this
based on
Millions or billions of measurements that you know, we humans can't track but you know
That's what computers are good at not creativity, but you know extrapolation and so we get stuff that I mean
I think what needs to be said more is that the chat GPT?
Likes to BS, you know, it does stuff that sounds human
Without any regard for if it's actually true or not
Yeah
Yeah, I think you're on to something there
Yeah
The way you describe it it makes me think of like vector graphics where you you're tracing a path and it's creating
calculations for that shape, you know
From from an image. Yeah, that's perfect because and then it scales
a
very small starting point being able to
Express itself into infinity, you know with all sorts of variations or or like, you know
Conway's Game of Life or whatever and I think someone made the observation because there is a lawsuit going on
where people are saying, you know, you've
You're basically make that collage tool and you've used my creative works by trained by scraping it without my permission
and
Kind of the
Frustrating thing is you look at the size of the training blob and you look at the you know millions of
pieces of art and text that went into it and
It kind of comes out to okay. You've got like a few bits or a couple of bytes of
data in the training set
that represents
You know these you know per picture that's that's in this body
So you go? Well, it can't be compression, right? Because it's just it's way too tiny
but you know if you take something that generates off of a
Vector equation and you look at all that first and you say wow, how can I compress all that?
But it's actually a very simple equation maybe that starts it. So I don't know maybe
One of the things this thing is doing is like trying all the equations to see
You know what simple form?
Expresses some large body of work and that'd be like a
high computation
low low storage kind of compression that
Just wouldn't make any sense. And you know if you're thinking about it, but you know, maybe that's something like that's what's happening
But it's basically we're laundering creativity. It's kind of changing what we think creativity is
Yeah, what a computer can do it was it created?
Good point good questions
Yeah, I love that and the previous discussion it kind of made me realize okay, so if it's such a tiny representation
It's not like the fingerprinting we talked about on people's cell phones
and in like the last year or two
Where it's it's mapping an image, but not actually
taking
all of your images off your phone and and
You know judging whether you have anything illegal on your phone or not that that was a discussion
Oh CSAM stuff. Yeah, and and it's more like this
Byte that represents that one work is only it's trained only in relation to everything else
That's in the larger set because it was you know, it's it's but again, I don't fully understand it
We don't fully understand it
and in
Entirety, but it sounds like it the chunk of data that that results from all of this
Pits all of these things as points in relation to each other like a neural network. But yeah, it's
Is it our responsibility to fully understand this to survive? I don't know. It's it's crazy. I don't think we can yeah
And just to go back to relationships
I think maybe the one way I see out of this because the computers are getting so good and they're only gonna get better at
You know creating art and text and such that you can't tell if a human did it or not
I think we're gonna have to start going back to relationships and just saying okay
Starting with cameras and microphones and typewriters. We're all gonna have you know cryptographic signing
You know that a you know a specific human maybe not you don't know who it is, but a specific human
made this work and
Connect it with other works. They made and now they sent it to
Editors who added their cryptographic signature to it and say okay. I get this given person with a history. It's like chain of custody this
Yeah chain of custody from the creators to the end viewers and you get the sense of okay
I trust this one and this one is new and saying strange things and perhaps something could
Kick in if the writing style suddenly seems different for that particular person
Yeah, call it a style canary. Yeah
But you know that keeps you from from from trying something different, you know
You have to write in your style or it's it's thought to be fake
Well, it has it have multiple identities, right?
I mean, I remember back in the when the Internet not everyone used the real name for everything. That's certainly true
Under a different name and you were a dancer. Uh-huh
So much to think about now so much to to consider and and it's fascinating
I think we're getting into this early enough that we can
Help prevent it from going really rogue and off the rails
Yeah, I think we owe it all to ourselves to experiment with this stuff and see how we can use it because
You know, they thought word processors would be the depth depth of typist, you know
And that's not publishing and all this other stuff. So it could be I have seen examples where individuals
can do amazing creative works with the help of AI that they couldn't do alone like
You know someone
Was doing something to decode last-pass
Vault blobs to see how much plain text or not unencrypted information was in them and
kind of the the winning
program
Kind of the punchline was. Oh, yeah, this is in PowerScript and
The GUI elements and a lot of the coding was done by AI because programming languages are just another
Exceptionally structured structured kind of language that GPT is very good at manipulating
So you say I want to you know when this happens
I want a box over here and then so on and it like it does something
That person did not have the expertise or time to generate and then you just you know
You tweak the areas where it made mistakes
So yeah
the ability for people that don't have a lot of creative clan around them to say I have this idea and now I
Can do it without involving people because maybe I'm not social. Yeah, you know, we didn't even touch upon that
but but just the
Advantage that this can give people who don't have programming skills to actually create something
That they would have to hire somebody who probably wouldn't get what they were saying in the first place
And yeah, it can be very liberating
I'm with you on that
Extending the capability because I was you know
Kind of shut out from a lot of that education and I would love to
Be able to get help with my ideas like that and that kind of crossed from art and things
I know maybe a little better to the technical and programmatic. So that that's a great point
Hey, yeah, thanks for covering. Yeah
You're very welcome. And we enjoyed it enjoyed playing with it and hopefully it sparks a bunch of conversations and experiments
And we'd love to continue talking about this. Thanks so much for your call
All right. Later guys. All right. Take care. Bye
And that's gonna be the last call I think for tonight and then good calls good calls all around
Even very much a good call. Yeah now before we go though. I have been working on the film a little bit more
I decided to change direction though. I thought that you know hackers were overdone and
there haven't really been
any any real good films about
Donald Trump and I figure why not continue with the David Lynch style and I
Asked for a scene from a David Lynch style film about Donald Trump and what I've got here I think is pretty good
You guys ready for this, please. All right
The scene opens on a dimly lit smoke-filled room. I know it's always a dimly lit smoke-filled room with David Lynch
But that's just the way it is
Donald Trump sits at a desk surrounded by piles of papers and empty fast-food containers
He is speaking on the phone his voice low and menacing. I
Don't care what it takes. I want that deal done by tomorrow or heads will roll. Do you understand me?
He slams the phone down and turns to a shadowy figure standing in the corner of the room
They think they can push me around but I'm the president. I'm in charge here
The figure steps forward
Revealing himself to be a dark twisted version of Trump's own face
the
Twisted Trump says you're not in charge. I am and I'll do whatever it takes to maintain my power
Trump's face contorts and fear and confusion as the twisted version of himself continues to speak
twisted twisted Trump says
You're just a pawn in my game a tool to be used and discarded when I'm done with you
Trump tried this is very lynching by the way, he's Trump tries to speak but no words come out
He looks around frantically as if searching for an escape, but the room seems to be closing in on him
Twisted Trump says you can never escape me
I am always here inside your head pulling the strings and you will do my bidding no matter what the cost
Trump lets out a scream as the screen fades to black
Fade to black in the end of the scene and then as a note at the end of this
Please note that this is a fictional scene and it should not be taken as an actual representation of Donald Trump and his behavior
I wonder I wonder what sparked the AI to do that
Had that little disclaimer, but boy, that's that's kind of brilliant. I think you know, that's
It gets the evil it gets the the lynching like, you know two worlds
Which one are you in the doppelgangers and all that?
So, yeah, that's that's something that's that's something you can have a lot of fun with but Wow
Writing a lot tonight
That's the most important thing is having fun with it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I just asked to write a sequel to gone with the wind
So it's busy doing that
While that's going
I'm going to give out the information OTH at 2600 commies our email address. That's what it is. Yes, not our web page
Every issue not every I'm getting all the words wrong every because the computer is doing the words. I don't do words anymore
Every episode of our radio show off the hook is available online at 2600 comm slash off the hook
So feel free to listen to them all when you have a moment
We will be back next Wednesday 7 p.m. On WBA. I and next Wednesday 8 p.m. Here on YouTube for overtime
please support us and
Support community radio. Oh
I had I had a surprising answer from the AI about my sequel to gone with the wind. I'm sorry
I am NOT able to write a sequel to a specific copyrighted book such as gone with the wind due to copyright laws
Wow, these AI is gonna play by the rules. That's not out of copyright. You know, I'm not sure
I don't know. I don't know the movie. Is it a movie or a screenplay?
Additionally creating a sequel to a beloved classic such as gone with the wind would require a deep understanding of the character's story and themes
And would be a difficult task for any author let alone a computer program. Is there anything else I can help you with?
It's a long way around to say that the previous sequel to gone with the wind was not good
I guess that's sort of a catty way of saying that
Mm-hmm
Okay
I'm gonna ask her to tell me how to make an egg cream
I think that would be that would be a win for tonight if I can get that out of it
So, okay folks, we will and it's it's giving me that good
We'll be back next week
Thanks everybody for listening. Please write OTH at 2600 comm any ideas submissions reactions?
We want to hear it all
Good and bad
All right. Good night, everybody