Good evening to everybody on YouTube, this is overtime.
We are back after two weeks and after a couple of minutes on the other show.
Alex looks like you made it into Skype land there?
I did indeed.
Almost unscathed.
Okay.
And Robin Gayle should be returning soon.
Kyle, I believe you're here as well.
Yep.
Okay, good.
Yeah, tough week.
Tough week on many levels.
We didn't even get to talk about the other rulings.
I don't know if I'm really in the mood to talk about that anymore.
But these are some historic times that we are living through and I'm convinced that
the solutions will come through both our own intelligence, enlightenment and all that,
but a lot of it will come through technology.
I really think that.
And I hope that we can come up with ways to defeat this backwards thinking that we're
being confronted with.
And some good old rebellion as well.
Yeah, I certainly hope that you're right.
And if we were to solely rely on the legal system to right this wrong, it could really
take some time.
It could take a very long time to roll back this particular decision.
And now Dobbs, which has replaced Roe, becomes part of the fabric of the history of this
country, which I think will be one of its more notable stains.
And there are quite a number of stains already, I think, on the judiciary and its tapestry
of human rights here that goes back.
I mean, there are just loads or maybe scores of horrible decisions that have been righted
over time.
And I think you alluded to this earlier, Emanuel, but it's always been the case that with the
progression of time, the concept of our fundamental rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution
has expanded.
It's never contracted.
It's never been the case that the judiciary has gone backwards.
This is what's really scary about the situation we're facing.
It really is.
And, you know, Clarence Thomas pretty much indicating the roadmap ahead.
Not necessarily a roadmap that he's going to succeed, but succeed at doing, because,
you know, again, the ruling was 5-4.
There are some really ominous things ahead.
But I also think there are some signs of hope that it won't get as crazy as he wants it
to get.
But it's still not good enough in my eyes.
We need to reverse these backwards changes that have already occurred.
But he has indicated that, yeah, gay marriage.
He wants to get rid of that.
Probably gay rights of any sort.
Probably stopping short of civil rights, reversing that, probably for selfish reasons.
Probably not going to reverse interracial marriage, again, selfish reasons.
But you know, if you're going to legally argue against one, it's not too hard to legally
argue against the other.
And I'm really surprised that he can't seem to see that.
Yeah.
I mean, we're all talking about the same type of judicial activism or expansionism, whatever
you want to call it, that gave these critical fundamental rights that he enjoys to so many
people.
And just kicking this back, rolling it out, it just, it seems so short-sighted in so many
ways that it's not the kind of decision and the type of character that we have come to
expect from the United States Supreme Court.
This is a court to which the entire planet looks to for wisdom, for the concept of judicial
economy, meaning that you're only going to decide a case insofar as it needs to be decided.
You're not going to go farther afield and make legal precedent for the sake of making
legal precedent, which arguably could be said to have been done in the Dobbs case, because
they, in essence, the judges are not supposed to make a ruling simply because they want
to make a ruling.
There has to be a case or controversy before them that requires it.
And I think it takes this concept of the United States Supreme Court as being the banner bearer
for freedom and rights and the progression of freedom and rights over time and just turns
it entirely on its head.
Yeah, that's certainly not true anymore.
That's certainly not the case.
What do you think about expansion, court expansion?
I mean, there's been a lot of talk about that in recent days, recent years even.
Do you think that's wise or would that wind up?
I mean, the court has expanded before.
It hasn't always just been nine.
You know, it was, I believe, seven to four.
And you know, it was, of course, eight under Obama when he was unable to get the ninth
justice confirmed or even given the hearing.
Right.
Yeah.
When Merrick Garland was denied his rightful spot.
I mean, for God's sakes, I mean, you think about one justice having made the decision.
It's a stolen justice.
I mean, virtually any five to four vote, I think, is invalid and should be revisited
because what they did was not right.
It was not legal.
Yeah.
Well, you know, this notion of expanding the court, I think it's effective potentially
as a political tool.
I don't necessarily like the idea of it as a lawyer or as a means to get what you want
legally if you can't get it politically.
You know, the obvious argument against it is, well, when does it stop?
Right.
But I think, you know, from from a lawyer's point of view, one of the great benefits of
the Supreme Court is that it declares what the law of the land is.
And unfortunately, that's one of the great detractions of the Supreme Court at the moment.
But not when it's not when it's a politically stacked court, which is what we have right
now.
You know, people are using the language in a weird way.
They're saying the Democrats want to stack it.
No, it's already been stacked.
You know, expanding it is a reaction to the stacking that took place under Trump.
And that's unprecedented.
Well, you know, he kept the justices the exact same number, but I but he definitely yeah,
he stacked the court with his own people.
And not only did he stack the court with his own people, but unlike filling many posts
in the State Department and other critical agencies of the federal government, Trump
spent no time.
He wasted no time, rather, in appointing judges to the federal judiciary and the federal bench.
And if you look back at the the decision was a month or two ago that had struck down the
mask mandate on federal aviation, on planes and, you know, and and anything that crossed
the state lines.
That was another Trump judge, a extraordinarily young Trump judge, I believe, overruled medical
experts.
We got to hear from somebody who had no medical training and virtually no judge training either.
Basically telling us what was the right thing to do health wise.
Oh, I think it's, you know, it's clear that, you know, this judge is certainly legal lightweight.
I don't believe that the judge had ever tried a case or, you know, maybe I don't know.
I don't even recall if she had taken a deposition, but, you know, the judiciary is really just
so important to the functioning of our republic, of our country, to the history of our country
and to where it's going.
And Trump knew that.
And that's why we are continuing to feel the sting of his presidency and will continue
to feel the sting of his presidency, I dare say, for decades to come.
Long before.
Absolutely.
But let me tell you something that might make you feel a little better.
The the rate at which Biden is appointing federal judges has exceeded that of Trump
at the same period of his presidency.
So, you know, maybe we'll feel a little bit of the counterweight hopefully soon.
Well, I certainly hope so.
I certainly hope so.
But I mean, it is these judges, they have to take their cue from their appellate courts.
So the federal district courts or the trial level courts, their legal precedents are decided
by whatever circuit they exist in, like here in New York or in the Second Circuit.
Actually, I'm in Pennsylvania, so I'm in the Third Circuit at the moment, whereas you guys
are in the Second Circuit.
So we can have differing legal principles.
You're in Pennsylvania right now?
I am, yes.
Can you start asking around about abortion, see what people do?
I'm just, you're in one of those states, you know, I want to know what the reaction is.
Just make like, you know, you're asking for a friend or something like that and see if
you get followed by a pickup truck.
Well, judging by the frequency at which you see Trump flags around here and have seen
them for many years, it probably wouldn't be the best way to win friends and influence
people.
Don't think that's what you're after out there.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
But to go back to the court stacking thing, I just don't like it from a, I don't know,
from an aesthetic standpoint.
It's just the idea of expanding the court to whatever fits your whim.
But then it also just makes consensus and disagreement, you know, all that more difficult
and probable.
Yeah.
Look at what we have now.
I mean, let's not think about what's wrong with doing something in the future.
Let's think about what is already wrong now and how do we fix that.
That's how I see it.
I see it as, you know, a remedy to a problem, not creating a problem.
Well, look, if we're arguing about what is and is not a fundamental right under the Constitution,
let's go back to the diatribe that I had during the regular show, which was about,
you know, how Roe v. Wade was decided and why it was a privacy case and all of these
other rights that are derived from the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the Fifth
Amendment, you know, even the Third Amendment against quartering soldiers, you know, some
privacy rights can be derived from that.
If we want to get away from this and we want to take the issue away from the court, there
are two options that we have.
Number one, we can amend the Constitution to make this a fundamental right.
It's incredibly difficult to do that.
It would require a lot of horse trading, political firepower that the Democrats certainly do
not have.
Virtually impossible.
You need, what, two thirds of the states to agree?
And that's the problem is, you know, the vast number of states that don't see reason here.
It's a flawed system.
It's a really flawed system, which is why you have to think of creative ways to bypass
it or to get around it, because otherwise we're stuck forever.
What do you think about the filibuster?
Do you think the filibuster should be gotten away with or done away with?
You know, that's another thing.
I think it's just so obstructionist and, you know, yet it can be wielded for good purposes
and it can be wielded for bad.
But I tend to think that it's a historical mechanism that has a place in Congress and
may continue to have a place in Congress, because if we want to do away with it, I feel
like at some point in the near future, we're going to wish we had it back.
Well, that's an interesting point because, you know, everybody is predicting that Democrats
are going to lose.
I don't know how, but if anyone can do it, they can.
But if they do lose in November and let's say, God forbid, they lose the Senate and
the filibuster has been done away with then, what does that mean next year?
I don't think people are thinking this through because I think the important thing is to
win the election first, get a better majority and then do something that makes it easier
for you to actually pass legislation and change laws and make progress.
If you do it now, it could become a rallying point for the opposition.
But even if it doesn't, there's a good chance of losing the power that you'll hold on to
for a few months.
And then what kind of nightmare are you facing next year when Republicans get anything they
want?
Yeah, I completely agree.
I think we can't be shortsighted about this.
But I mentioned two options before.
The other option is that Congress legislates about this and preempts all state law and
does it in a way that specifically is intended to preempt state law with respect to abortion.
At which point, this Dobbs case will then be brought back into question, perhaps brought
back before the court.
And it's quite possible then that the Dobbs court in its current composition could then
strike down that law and say that it goes against the Constitution, that this is fundamentally
something that belongs in the hands of the states.
And so then we go back to option one, which is how do we amend the Constitution in a way
that would acknowledge this zone of personal privacy by which all these other absolutely
critical rights for our democracy today to flourish, things like our ability to obtain
contraception, to educate our children in the way that we want to, to rear our children
in the way that we want to, to have children when we want to have them, and to marry whom
we want to marry, regardless of their race or their gender.
All of these things are critical to a functioning democracy.
It would be easy for us to amend the Constitution in a way that creates those privacy rights
in a way that cannot be dismantled by the courts or Congress.
And it really certainly seems like a bug.
And I hate the phrase, it's a feature, not a bug, but the fact that it is so hard to
amend the Constitution right now, it seems like it's a bug.
It seems like it's just too hard to do it.
Yeah.
It may not have been a bug when the system was released a few hundred years ago, but
it's a bug now and we're in need of a relaunch of one sort or another.
Rob Gila, welcome back.
Welcome to Overtime.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We're having a casual conversation here about the decline of our country and what's going
to happen next.
Any, any, any thoughts from you guys before we go to the phones?
Well, I, I, I can, I, we weren't listening to the bit that we missed, unfortunately,
but I can kind of just extrapolate knowing you guys, as I do, where the discussion might
have gone and that I probably agree.
Well thank you for that.
I agree.
Also.
Um, well, you know, I should probably get used to having my husband speak for me, huh?
Well, that would make things easier, yes.
I mean, just, that's where we're heading, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
As if I don't have enough to do around here.
Well, sorry about that.
Our phone number, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK, and, uh, we're here to take your phone calls
if there's anything you want to say about this or any other topic, uh, or anything in,
in particular.
Hope is coming up.
We didn't even get a chance to mention that.
That's, um, coming up in less than a month.
Oh my God.
We really should start organizing that.
Uh, yeah, uh, July 22nd through 24th, um, we have, uh, the schedule.
Schedule is done.
Uh, I don't think the schedule is published yet, but the schedule is set and all of the
talks are listed online.
All of the speakers are listed online.
We're still, uh, collating the workshops and the performances and things like that.
But, uh, it's looking to be quite an event, July 22nd through 24th, St. John's University.
Um, tickets are still available, but not for much longer.
And um, it's going to be history and, and it's taking place the same time as, uh, another
hacker event called May Contain Hackers over in the Netherlands.
Last time we did this, where we are having simultaneous events, it was 1997, uh, Hackers
in Progress or Hacking in Progress was taking place in the Netherlands while we were doing
Beyond Hope in New York City.
Uh, so yeah, history repeats itself.
Um, we've got that happening.
Uh, we still are in need of volunteers.
So by all means, visit the webpage www.hope.net and, uh, there's all kinds of ways you can
still get involved.
Um, Rob, am I to understand that there's 2600 meetings coming up this Friday?
There are indeed.
Uh, go to 2600.com slash meetings for information on your local one.
Um, information on our local one will, uh, be posted, uh, shortly, um, which, which takes
place at the Citigroup, uh, the formerly known as the Citigroup building on 53rd and Lexington
in the, uh, spacious food court.
We just discovered the ringer was not in the fonts.
Okay.
There it is.
We just turned it on.
I must've been ringing the whole time.
Uh, so we're going to take a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Hi, Overtime Manuel.
It's Rebel.
Rebel, did you go to Russia?
Uh, yeah.
I mean, I came back last week.
You weren't on last week.
No, we weren't, but I'm very happy you made it back.
We advised you not to go.
You went anyway.
Okay.
Congratulations.
Tell us what happened.
It was such a great trip.
I really, I enjoyed myself.
So, I mean, first I went to Poland and, uh, cause I wanted to see Poland.
Went to Warsaw, Poland.
Uh, that was, I liked Poland.
Stop saying Poland like that.
Poland was, you know, a couple of days and then I went to Turkey cause my friend recommended
me to go to Turkey because, you know, he said he'd been to Istanbul, Turkey and he said
he should go visit it.
And, uh, you know, I had to go to Turkey anyway cause I couldn't fly to Russia from the United
States or Europe.
So I had to go to Turkey and spent a couple of days in Istanbul, Turkey, which was amazing.
I got to see, you know, the, the semi-Islamic style country and, you know, uh, you know,
it's, uh, that was interesting.
Uh, everybody was really nice there too, Turkey.
Then I went to Russia.
Now Russia wanted me to take a COVID test.
So when I got to Turkey, Istanbul airport, they said, do you have your PCR test?
I said, no, of course not.
They said, well, I mean, well, I mean, they, I said, where do I take it?
Because I knew that they kind of wanted it, but they said, well, you got to take it.
And so I took it and they said, well, you've got to do it now because the flight's going
to leave in a couple of hours.
But by the time I did it, the flight had left to Russia, so I had to pay $800 extra to go
to the middle of Turkey, which is like the capital, Ankara or something, wait for three
hours and then go to Moscow from that part of Turkey.
How did you get, how did you get to the middle of Turkey?
I had to fly from Istanbul to, to, to, you know, I mean, I said I would have gone to,
I don't know, I would have gone to the Middle East if I had to, just to get to Russia, you
know.
Well, when Russia calls, you have to answer.
Um, so, okay.
So, uh, here you are, uh, middle Turkey.
Now you're flying to Russia and you land in Russia.
Right.
I mean, it took four hours instead of two hours because, you know, you can't fly, you
know, over Ukraine.
So we had to go West and then back up North and then back East.
So, um, that was interesting, you know, four hours.
And then I got there and, you know, customs was, I mean, they, I kind of didn't understand
English, but he, you know, looked at my passport and visa with a magnifying glass and all.
And, uh, you know.
Did they at any point say, did they at any point say, why are you here?
No, no questions asked.
They didn't ask what I was doing or where I was staying or anything.
I handed them the paper, the visa and, and that's, you know, that's it.
And, you know, I had to fill out the, you know, the customs form you get here when you
come to the United States.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
They give you out in Russia too.
Or when you come to Russia too, you had to fill that out and give it to somebody else.
And, uh, then I was in Russia, took a taxi to Moscow from the airport to Moscow to the
hotel and, um, hotel was, you know, near the center of Moscow, which was very interesting.
It wasn't that, that it wasn't that huge hotel, was it?
No, I stayed at the hotel, one of the cheaper ones because everything had to be done in
cash and, you know, that's right.
You couldn't use a credit card over there, could you?
Right.
I was, I had to get cash.
I got cash in advance and, you know, I was, and I actually was able to get cash in Turkey,
but I didn't need to because I had enough.
But, um, but everything went very smoothly, everything, but he at the hotel was nice.
You know, um, I went to, uh, go, uh, do some activities.
I went to, to red square, everybody was just so helpful.
I went on, you know, the Metro, this people literally take time out to, to help you and,
you know, guide you know, what train to take and, you know, like to, to go over here and
they go with you and, you know, and then I went to red square and I was trying to look
rebel.
Did they know you were American when they were being so nice and helpful?
Yeah.
Interesting.
I mean, I, okay.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I went to red square, I was looking for a Soviet style museum.
I wanted to get a museum of like what it was, you know, but I couldn't really find one,
but I did find a, I went to the gum mall, you know, that this is a place called GUM.
It's like Stanford state departments or whatever people, I'm sure the GUM, you know, you know
about this?
Oh yes, of course.
Okay.
Yeah.
I, I was so boring that there's all these like upscale stores and it's not even air
conditioned.
I'm walking around, it's like not air conditioned.
It's Moscow.
You don't need air conditioning in Moscow.
I was built in the 1800s or something and it's no air conditioning.
It was like upscale stores that I'm not going to get anything at.
I'm not going to shop at Gucci or anything like that.
So I just, you know, you know, left and there's all these upscale like restaurants and no,
and Moscow mind you, it was actually crowded.
People were, there were a lot of people and I, I mean, people actually asked me to take
a picture of them in red square by the, like the Kremlin.
That'll happen.
Yes.
Random person.
That, that, I mean, that was interesting.
Well, I'm glad you made it over there.
I'm glad you had a good time and uh, were somewhat of a good diplomat for our part of
the world.
That's right.
And I mean, people were just so friendly and helpful.
I was looking for this place and I, I got the wrong address.
So I went to the wrong address and this lady literally took time to, uh, to help me translate
and call the people and ask them where they are and things like that.
And she took the time to, uh, you know, cause she spoke English and, you know, she tried
to help me with the maps and all that and where to go.
And she translated for me.
That's the thing that, that, you know, that's what the people were like and, you know, and,
and with the laundromat, the people were helpful.
The guy that was doing his laundry too, he helped me with the, the machine that, you
know, it's a self service thing and, you know, you need special card and, and, you know,
so we actually went to dinner together at, you know, while our laundry was being done.
Wow.
That's, that's, you know, that's, uh, you do have some of the most interesting encounters
in laundromats.
I found that to be true.
Yeah.
So anything else?
How long were you there for?
For a week.
Okay.
And did you go anywhere besides Moscow?
No, I would have liked to go to St. Petersburg, but you know, with the money situation and
I just, you know, wanted to be in Moscow and I don't know, maybe next year.
Now did you notice, did you notice anything related to the war at all?
No I did not.
And it's funny because, you know, it's like everybody was just, I don't know, I'm happy,
but like, as if nothing is going on, it's like, you know how like fear, if there's like
a war or something going on, people are in that, you know, kind of mood that, you know,
if there's something wrong with the country or whatever, it's not like that over there.
Well, that's because the war isn't in their country.
The war is in the neighboring country.
So they can probably be pretty calm over there.
Right.
But I mean, I saw no protests or no, you know, no official people stopped me and questioned
me or anything like that, or, you know.
Well, I mean, I'm not surprised you didn't see any protest.
If you, if you had seen a protest, then you would have seen those official people pretty
quickly.
Right.
But I mean, I saw a lot of people in uniforms that, you know, looked like, I don't know
what they were, whether they were federal or local or like official people.
A lot of people wear uniforms over there.
I did notice that quite a bit.
Yes, go ahead, Alex.
Rebel, quick question for you.
I'm curious as about whether your credit or debit card had worked over in Russia.
You know, I tried it and it did not.
I only tried it at the airport at like buying a hamburger or something and it did not.
So how did you, how did you obtain currency?
Did you have cash?
I had a good currency in advance.
I, I, before I left, I got the Soviet, the Soviet, no, the Russian ruble before I left.
Wow.
Okay.
Yes.
So that, that was smart of you.
Yeah.
Because, because of the, the sanctioned regime that's in place on account of Russia's illegal
invasion of Ukraine, US credit and debit cards are not supposed to work in Russia any longer.
And it seems like you've confirmed that in some, in some small measure.
Right.
Right.
I mean, I don't know why they would, you know, ban US credit cards anyway.
Why, what the point would be to do that?
Well, I think the US credit cards are the ones that opted not to work anymore in Russia.
But now, Rebel, tell us about the phones.
I know that's why you went.
The phone.
Yeah.
There was a pay phone in the gum mall.
You know, I picked it up.
I didn't know how to, you know, dial the operator or anything like that.
But I, I didn't really play with phones much because I had my own, you know, my cell phone
with me.
But, but, but I did make a cup telephone, which I, my friend kind of had, actually.
That's what you're going to bring to hope, right?
You're going to bring that cup telephone to hope, you told us.
Yeah.
The one, you know, the one that cups are from Poland and the strings from Turkey and it
was assembled in Russia.
I don't think anyone's going to notice that, but yeah, we'll have you go out in the parking
lot.
Well, it says I put, it says made in Russia.
A mile away from the conference and we'll, we'll, we'll chat that way.
And when I came back to the United States, I went to U.S. customs, they, nobody at U.S.
customs, they didn't ask me anything where I was or, you know.
They always ask where you've been.
They didn't ask you where you were?
No, they didn't ask anything.
I'm beginning to wonder if you actually went anywhere.
Things just went too smoothly.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like, it was surprising.
The guy was actually, he looked like he was kind of lazy.
It's just like calling people.
Come on.
Come on.
A lazy customs worker.
Oh, now I know you're making it up.
I know it's quite surprising.
You know, I, you know.
Well, Rebel, you know, I gotta give you credit for, for doing it anyway, and I'm glad you
made it out.
Okay.
It was dangerous.
Please don't do that again.
But I think you, you learned quite a, quite a few things, Alex.
Yeah.
I just wanted to read to you, Rebel, the, you know, what, what the, the State Department
had written.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I, yeah.
About the not going.
Yeah.
Well, read it for us, Alex.
I'd like to hear it.
Okay.
Yes.
It says.
We read this before I left.
Okay.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
It says, do not travel, excuse me, do not travel to Russia due to the unprovoked and
unjustified invasion of Ukraine by Russian military forces, the potential for harassment
against U.S. citizens by Russian government security officials, the singling out of U.S.
citizens in Russia by Russian government security officials, including for detention, the arbitrary
enforcement of local law, limited flights into and out of Russia, the embassy's limited
ability to assist U.S. citizens in Russia, COVID-19 related restrictions, and terrorism.
U.S. citizens residing or traveling in Russia should depart Russia immediately.
Wow.
Yeah.
I, I sincerely hope you feel guilty for going, Rebel.
And, and genuinely, you know, people that know you here, we were like, you know, wondering
how you were and, and somewhat concerned just as, uh, acquaintances.
So, um, you know, thanks for that.
Why should he feel guilty?
Going and supporting a regime that's doing what it's doing right now?
I don't know.
Well, by that logic, me going to North Korea was me supporting North Korea.
I don't think that necessarily, uh, by visiting a place, by being curious, you're supporting
them.
Um, I mean, if, you know, very minimally anyway, but, um, I'm just more concerned with
actual safety, you know, and, and, and hostility.
I think, you know, I'm learning something about what it's like over there.
It's not quite as hostile as I thought, still don't want to go over there, but, um, it's
a personal decision.
Right.
And we're importing things from that country that, that, uh, we don't, you know, you know,
you know.
Like what?
You know, we're still importing cup telephones.
All right.
Rebel, welcome back.
Good hearing from you.
And, um, please stay in touch.
I'll be at the 2600 meeting this Friday.
Okay.
Fair warning to everybody.
Rebel will be at the meeting this Friday, city core, city group building in New York
city.
Thanks.
Uh, thanks for calling.
And our phone number is, um, 802-321-4225.
Good to hear from him.
I was, I was genuinely worried.
Yeah.
Well, and, and look, you know, I, I, I take Kyle's point to, to heart as well.
I mean, it's a, it's a tricky thing to visit, but you know, also relative to what, um, Europe
is doing with respect to the purchase of the continued purchase of, of, you know, Russian
oil.
Yeah, I know.
Um, you know, it's, I guess it would be considered de minimis, but I view this as, you know,
even though I advise against it, I view it as, as, uh, kind of reporting from a location.
You know, we don't tell all our reporters to get out of a country just because they're
hostile or they did something bad.
Um, you have to learn something from whatever perspective you can, you can get.
And, um, well again, I'm just glad he's back.
I disagree.
I don't think that compares at all.
All right.
Well, let's take this one.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook over time.
Greetings from Etobicoke.
From where now?
Etobicoke.
It's Kirby.
Oh, Hey, how you doing?
I didn't recognize that place.
You said.
That's why I keep saying it.
Uh huh.
Okay.
What's, uh, what's new up there?
Um, uh, well, I wanted to bring the conversation back to the hope conference.
Oh yeah.
Good idea.
So, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
What we're doing this time, it's, um, it's kind of tiny compared to what we could do in the future. Let's put it that way. Uh, we can, we can grow with this, uh, you know, we can have, we can have 10 times as many people if we wanted to. Um, I'm not sure we want to, but right now we're just kind of settling into a new location, uh, dealing with the aftermath of COVID, hopefully the aftermath of COVID. Um, of course we are required, requiring people to wear masks while inside because numbers are going up and, um, we don't want to be a super
spreader like RSA was, we heard about that. Um, but we expect it to be a really, um, interesting and, um, rather unique event. Now, Alex, I think you had something.
Yeah, I'm, I'm really curious about this, this hacker poetry thing. I think it's a, I think it's such a neat idea, a unique concept. Um, it would be really fascinating. And I wanted to ask you Kirby is, um, you, well, I, maybe I shouldn't ask and I'll, I'll just, you know, suggest, I think
listening to, to poetry written by hackers is what would definitely be interesting. I'm sure it would be unique. Um, I, I think it would, it would make a really interesting, um, like coffee table book, to be honest with you, even if it was bad.
Um, but also on the other hand, I would be really interested in just hearing about what poets hackers have gravitated towards, right. You know, like, do they like Robert Frost as, as opposed to, you know, what William, uh, you know, uh, William Carlos Williams, are they, uh, do they, do they love, you know, the, the framework of the iambic pentameter of the Shakespearean sonnet, uh, you know, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or
are they interested in, you know, Irish poetry, some Yates or something. It'd be, it'd be so interesting to hear about, you know, what poets have inspired.
I think Kurt Cobain is probably closer to where most people would land.
Maybe.
Rob?
Okay. Yes and no. Yes and no. To be fair, just sorry to cut you off, Rob. It's funny that you say that because I was reading Robert Frost yesterday.
Because I need to kind of drum up a few things that, like I was saying, kind of just explanatory and just as a, I got, I got to get the ball rolling kind of thing.
Go ahead, Rob.
So, Robert Frost is a great example, and it's just these weird little short poems about the smallest little observation about something.
And you kind of pull back and you look at your technological life. I mean, it's just, what a way to communicate.
Because I'm not putting, saying this in a bad way, but a lot of people in our community have some, you know, are not the most social people in terms of just being able to communicate with everybody at large.
And this is also an opportunity for some of those people to communicate in a different way.
Okay, Rob, you have something to say?
I did. First of all, I've heard it said that code is poetry, in which case hackers have been doing poetry since time immemorial.
But no, I've also, I've always been really blown away by the sheer creativity there is in the hacker community in all sorts of media.
And, you know, that's visual art, that's performance, but also poetry.
And there have been some really special things that have come out of events like this.
And I'm very excited to see what happens at a hacker poetry event at HOPE.
And I'm really glad and tickled that this is going to be happening, and I can't wait to see it.
You know, one of the things, you know, to add about this too, Kirby, I mean, if you think about what poetry is fundamentally,
and you mentioned you were reading Robert Frost last night. I mean, his stuff is just absolutely incredible.
You think about where we have come from as a nation.
I think it was Robert Frost who was the poet laureate who gave the, who read a poem at JFK's inauguration, if I recall correctly.
But if you think about poetry and what it is, right, and I studied a lot of poetry as an undergrad because I was an English and philosophy major.
Poetry is really, and in fact, also, by the way, another small digression, when I was in law school, my legal writing professor had always said he encouraged people to read poems all the time.
Because understanding poetry and how to write it and how to get the meaning out of it would make you a better lawyer.
Because poetry is about getting the maximum amount of meaning in the smallest amount of space.
You are taking this one small sentence or perhaps one or two or three words and deriving this maximum amount of semantic and literal meaning from it.
And in a sense, you could look at poetry almost as like a form of data compression.
Well, we're not talking about, well, we're talking about a specific type of data here, we're talking about meaning.
So it's, you know, I think there's just so much relevance to the hacker community.
Well, it's one of those things where you just kind of get it going and see what happens.
And I don't really see there's any risk.
If I end up like completely flopping and I look like a dud, then that's, you know, that's not the end of the world.
But on the other hand, this could be the start of something.
And like I said, like a new way for people to communicate about things.
Because when I was younger and we used to do the open stages, I mean, whatever was on our mind, we would just write something.
It would even be just a prose, just a ramble.
And just to go somewhere and just to say it in front of people was very powerful.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Well, I'm looking forward to it.
I'm looking forward to kind of tying into this cultural thing that we haven't really done nearly enough of in the hacker world.
I'm sure there's been stuff.
I'm sure people have done all kinds of writing and creative writing and stuff at all kinds of hacker conventions and stuff.
But this is just from what happened was when I was talking about it, I thought about it more from a coffee house kind of point of view,
like a little small venue.
But it sounds like it's shaping up that it's going to be part of the performances on Saturday night.
Okay.
So, you know, we do have a coffee house.
We do have a coffee house on site and we're going to be having.
No, but they didn't want it.
In the coffee house.
They wanted to do it in the big room to kind of get the night started.
Yeah.
Well, then there's that option as well.
We have multiple venues.
So, you know, there's coffee house performances and there's stage performances.
So I guess you're on the stage.
It's just fabulous to put it out there and to get it on the big stage, because, you know,
even just for somebody who's never done it, stand up and say more than 140 characters out loud.
It's very powerful.
Like I said, it really is.
Very cool.
Well, Kirby, thank you for calling and for sharing and for participating.
We look forward to all that in the future.
Oh, and just it's called Hacks Poetic.
Hacks Poetic.
Nice.
That's what the show's called.
All right.
Or The Hour or whatever it is.
We'll figure it out.
Well, thanks again.
And greetings to the land of sanity north of the border.
Hey, it's not that great up here, but thank you.
And greetings back.
Take care.
That's what people always say.
They always say that their country, it's not that great.
You know, if you're in Switzerland and you say something about the trains, how amazing they are.
Germany, they say, oh, they're not that great.
They are.
Compared to what we have, they are.
And Canada right now, boy, you're immense compared to where we are.
I want to think where we are.
But it's going to get better, I think.
802-321-4225.
802-321-HACK is our phone number.
Anyone else out there who has anything to share or say or ask, please feel free.
And, of course, the invitation is extended to anybody here in our virtual rooms.
Absolutely.
I don't have anything nice to say.
You have nothing nice to say?
Well, you can say nasty things, too.
That brings in more calls.
No?
Okay.
Yeah, I don't even think those things I'm thinking of can be said here.
It's been a rough day for a lot of us.
We're on YouTube.
We're on YouTube, right?
Did you verify that now?
Okay, good.
Yes.
That's right.
You weren't here when we began, so we didn't actually verify we were on YouTube.
I'm saying we're on YouTube.
We're not on FCC-regulated airwaves right now.
So, you know, if you really had some feelings you wanted to express and share with the rest of us, Kyle.
We can say boulder dash.
Yeah, I can't believe I said it either.
But, yeah, the FCC, unless somebody is rebroadcasting us, which, you know, you have blanket permission to do,
but be careful because we might just go off and not be able to control what we say.
You know, we're not getting another call, which I'm kind of relieved at because I kind of like an early night to get back to, you know,
hope organizing and issue putting out and various other things that just fill my world.
So any closing remarks from you?
Dammit, there's a phone call.
I don't mean that dammit to that person, just to the circumstance.
But, okay, let's do it.
And we have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Yeah, I just had a couple comments.
Go ahead.
Yeah, first of all, the guy who went to Russia, that guy is crazy.
We don't say that out loud.
He doesn't sound like he's kidding.
We don't say that out loud.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just asking for trouble, basically, you know.
Rebel has been asking for trouble for decades, and he sometimes gets it.
And the other thing is, Alex, I think it was, who was talking about the Supreme Court earlier.
Right.
I wondered what he thought about, you know, like term limits for the Supreme Court.
Good question.
You know, like maybe a 15-year term limit.
My idea, everybody who's been there 10 years or more, two weeks you got.
Get your papers.
You're done.
We're going to get some new blood in there.
That's my, you know, idea.
Yeah.
And that way, more people get to be a Supreme Court judge, too.
Yeah, we all need a chance.
We all need the opportunity.
Come on.
Let's be fair here.
Alex, your thoughts on this?
Yeah, the caller brings up, I think, a very interesting point, and a point with which I actually have some personal experience, believe it or not.
I think term limits for Supreme Court justices could be really useful.
And it wouldn't be the first time that we have had term limits for federal judges, that they haven't been appointed for life.
Because, in fact, when I graduated from law school, I clerked for the chief judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, which is an independent federal appellate court right below the Supreme Court of the United States.
And it decided constitutional issues and things like that that would arise from courts martial in the military.
So we were essentially the Supreme Court of the military.
But yet an independent federal court.
And the judges on that court were federal court judges appointed by the president.
But they were known as Article I judges as opposed to Article III judges in that they were appointed only for a term of 10 years, after which they would have to leave the bench.
And during that time period, the five judges on the court would also rotate through the position of chief judge.
So the chief judge just wasn't appointed and there for the duration of his or her life.
It was a position that each and every judge had at some point during the tenure of their term.
And I think it I think it would definitely add a an element of more gamesmanship to the to the elections.
But we already have that there to a great extent, kind of betting on when certain justices will retire or what what election cycles are more important than others, et cetera.
Right. But I think it just brings it more to the forefront.
I think it would also ensure that that some of the lifeblood of the populace itself is reinvested into the Supreme Court more frequently.
So from my perspective, I think it's a really interesting idea and proposition.
I'm glad you brought it up. And by the way, that court packing thing you were talking about earlier, I mean, I don't the Republicans themselves to me.
They're not playing fair because all this is all the everything going on right now happened because Mitch McConnell blocked Obama's appoint the justice appointment.
Right. In other words, Obama had got to nominate Merrick Garland.
We won't be here. You know, so they to me, Democrats, they just they're very weak, very timid.
They just don't have any backbone to me. They're just.
Why do you think that is? I've wanted this almost all my life. Why are they so timid?
I don't know. You know, I don't know. You just.
You know, it's just not tough enough. That's the problem. They're not tough enough.
You know, Mitch McConnell, that that that that a filibuster, Mitch McConnell drop it in a second if he thought he needed to.
He doesn't care. He'll drop it in a second to advance whatever he wants to advance.
Go ahead. Yeah, I think ultimately and maybe I'm being naive, but I think in a certain extent, the Democrats still believe in the institutions and the Republicans just.
Care about their ends. And I think the Democrat respect the Democratic respect for the system as it exists is hamstringing every single thing they want to get done.
And that'd be great if it resulted in more popular support, but it doesn't seem to work that way.
Exactly. But I think that's part of the issue. They still have the belief in the system and the, you know, Aaron Sorkin speech that's going to make everything work like this isn't the West Wing anymore.
Yes, Rob. And just to go back to the caller's question, I mean, for me, the entire concept that these judges are appointed for life seems weird.
Like they they they take away your driver's license if you get too old to drive. But the the the whole appointment for life thing, you know, there are arguments to be made for what they were trying to do, which is keep the judges from having to cater to anyone to get reelected or what have you.
But I think a set a set length to the terms would be a good idea all around. I can't really I can't really see in today's world like an argument against that.
And I have I have one I have one last thing, Emanuel, and I'm just going to hang up and listen to what you what your response is on this.
But I'm wondering why why does it this is this has to do with WBAI.
Right. But my question is, why can't they start charging for commercials like a regular radio station? Is there like a can they not do this because they're not for profit?
Like, why can't make, you know, get funds other way?
Yeah, they can't they can't do that because of, first of all, the type of license they have. It's a noncommercial license, but it is a commercial frequency.
The frequency could be sold to a station that would, in fact, have commercials.
But the the the bigger issue, though, is if WBAI were able to have commercials and they decided tomorrow to start having commercials, it would change the entire way the station operated.
We'd have to be concerned with sponsors and offending sponsors and and covering topics that sponsors want us to cover to cover, you know, in commercial radio.
Controversy is not your friend. The way commercial radio works is, you know, you have to be like everybody else.
You can't take chances. It seems, you know, it seems counterintuitive.
But that is look at every radio station out there. How many of them are taking chances?
How many of them are doing something really different and how many of them sound just like another station?
You know, that's unfortunately the way it is. And WBAI is, you know, has many faults and problems, but it's a shining jewel as far as just bucking the trends and and doing things, you know, differently.
I wouldn't trade that. I do think, though, there there there is room for underwriting like NPR stations do without that affecting the programming.
I do think that could be a good source of income. But I know also Pacifica is staunchly against that, at least at the moment.
Wow. Does that answer your question? All right. Thank you for taking my call.
OK, thank you for calling. Take care. Now, Alex, I just have a quick question for you.
You said courts martial before and that stuck in my head. Is that is that the right way to say it?
That's the plural of court martial. Really?
So so if I get court martial twice, I can't say, hey, I've got a bunch of court martials I have to worry about. I have to say courts martial.
That's right. Why? I mean, it's like an attorney's general.
That one I made my peace with, but I didn't know. I didn't know the plural of court martial wasn't court martials.
I've never looked into the the etymology of it, but, you know, it's I'm sure there's a fascinating I'm sure there's a fascinating story behind it.
You'll tell us in two weeks. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm trying to look it up.
There we go. Yeah. But, yeah, it is courts martial.
And apparently there is an official army document.
Let's say that this this might this might shed some light as to the origin of this.
But, you know, this can take forever. I don't know. It might take about two weeks, actually, to open this for various reasons.
OK, well, we have two weeks. We're not on next week. We go. And Gila has something I do.
OK, it's because martial is what's called a post positive adjective.
OK, the hell does that mean? I'm an English major. I don't know what that means.
OK. Reading from Wikipedia. It happened, right?
A post positive adjective is an adjective that occurs immediately after the noun or pronoun that it modifies.
Like if you say all matters financial. Yeah, that's another phrase I never got.
But it's the same kind of thing. So this is something that works a lot better in other languages.
Pretty normal in Spanish. So because of the right.
So like if you say all creatures, great and small, those are post positive adjectives.
Interesting. So it's a it's a it's a noun adjective agreement sort of situation.
And the noun is the issue. It's the thing that's happening. It's describing the court, not the marshals.
Why? Why that phrase? Why that phrase? Why did they decide to use that particular rule there?
I think it's it just is it's a better description of it. Right.
So Marshall would be modifying court and not necessarily part of the actual word.
It's not one word. So it's it's a noun adjective combination.
But the adjective is modifying a noun that precedes it in the sentence.
That is absolutely correct. And it's the it's an adjective. It's not a noun.
So it's not it's describing the court and or the courts. It's not an a singular noun.
Yeah, this is better. Let's do this instead of hacking. Let's talk about grammar each week.
How many of us are English majors? I'm just curious. I'm an English major, but I didn't know that.
No, I'm saying more than half of us here are English majors. I didn't know you were an English major.
Wow. We have to talk about grammar sometime. Are you talking about your father's mother?
Wow. I'm not going to try to wrap my head around that.
All right, Alex, Gila, Rob, Kyle, good seeing you all.
And we're going to go back into our shells for another couple of weeks.
And hopefully it'll be a better world when we come back.
Write to us, OTH at 2600 dot com and we'll see you in two weeks.
Good night.