Thank you for listening to All Things Dark.
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off the Hook.
Emanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle.
Yeah.
And Rob and Gila are with us in Skype-land, I believe. Rob? Gila?
Good evening. Hello.
And Alex will be joining us as soon as he arrives. He's currently in transit.
We have all kinds of updates, folks. All kinds of things to tell people about.
We have our first show in two weeks. We're not going to be on next week.
But the good news is we'll be on for five consecutive weeks after that.
So that is where we stand as far as that goes.
Now, I understand, Rob and Gila, you just got back from your second vaccine.
Is that right?
We sure did, yeah.
Okay. I'm going to ask you all about that.
But first, I just want to share some information that is kind of weight-breaking or of great importance, I think.
Maybe it's not. Maybe it's of no importance whatsoever.
But we'll find out, I guess. Hopefully, we'll find out.
A few weeks ago, we received – well, actually, I received an email from Facebook.
Yeah. I don't use Facebook all that much. Not a fan.
But I am on there, and I do communicate with people through Facebook Messenger.
Actually, I have it going through my Trillium client.
I'm able to tie it in, and Facebook Messenger somehow talks to people that way, and I'm able to sometimes, sometimes communicate.
It's flaky at best.
So I don't use it very much.
So I was surprised to receive a letter from records at records.facebook.com.
It's the real thing, and it wasn't fake email or anything like that.
And it was addressed to me. It said,
This notice is to inform you that we received legal process from law enforcement seeking information about your account and produce data as required by law.
The legal process was accompanied by an order that prohibited us from disclosing information about the case until a specific time had expired,
and we were legally required to produce the records specified in the demand.
And this was dated March 4th, 335 in the morning.
If you would like additional information about the legal process, please let us know as soon as possible by responding to this email signed law enforcement response team.
Well, you can imagine we were very interested in finding out just what this was about.
And so we said, yes, please forward all information concerning this case.
Six minutes later, we got a response.
I don't think it was a human.
I think it was something automated.
It said, Hello, for more information, the requesting agency may be reached at the contact information below.
The agency contact information, the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation.
And two agency case numbers were given one number or a different number.
I'm not going to read the numbers out.
I'm not I don't know if it's something that I shouldn't share.
But for now, I don't see any reason to share it.
But there are two different numbers, and one of them begins with 2017.
So read into that wherever you you might.
2017, the first year of the Trump administration.
It was a while ago.
It was what, four years ago.
The court, United States District Court, Southern District of New York.
We are unable to provide you with legal advice.
I would never ask Facebook for legal advice.
Believe me.
If you have questions about this notification, we suggest that you consult with an attorney.
Thank you.
Law enforcement response team.
In other words, that's it.
Our hands are clean.
We're not going to talk about this anymore.
You have to do the work from this point on.
Fair enough.
Since then, since March 4th.
What's today?
Today's March the 24th, 24th, 20 days, literally 20 days.
We have had people trying to get more information from the FBI as to just what this is all about.
And we have not gotten a response.
We have found out that the person who is not calling us back is part of, and get ready for this, the terrorism task force.
Now, read into that whatever you will.
So my Facebook account, which I barely use, was being investigated by the FBI.
And apparently has some kind of relationship to the terrorism task force.
And that might have been going on since 2017.
I would like to discuss this.
I would like to have all kinds of back and forth.
But I think for legal reasons, it makes sense to just try and get more information.
What we're doing here tonight is just telling you what we know.
Now you know everything that we know.
We're not going to answer questions later on overtime when we take phone calls.
Because there's really nothing that we can say at this point that would be constructive or helpful in any way.
We are going to continue to try and get more information as to just what in God's name this is about.
But I got to tell you, as the person who is being targeted here, for one reason or another, it's very unsettling.
And it's especially unsettling when you don't get answers to your questions.
I don't know, did Facebook maybe make a mistake and they weren't supposed to tell me?
Are there other social media accounts that have been also brought into this investigation, whatever it is they're investigating?
I really want to know.
I really want to know.
It's very frustrating and, as I said, unsettling to know that you're in someone's sights like this.
And I wonder, you know, I'm able to talk about this on the radio.
I'm able to talk about this in the magazine and on websites and things like that and be heard.
How many people have something like this happen and are not heard?
What happens when you're not even informed that you're being investigated?
It's a crazy time we live in.
But we're in it together and we're going to continue to keep you apprised.
So keep watching the website, 2600.com.
Keep listening here on WBAI for Off The Hook, most Wednesday nights at 7 o'clock.
And, of course, Overtime follows at 8 o'clock on our YouTube channel, which is channel 2600.
And you can call us at that time with questions or comments about other things.
We're not going to be talking about this anymore because we just wanted to let people know what's going on.
We are curious if other people have had these kinds of correspondence from various services.
Yeah, if this happened to you, let us know that. We'd like to know that.
We'd like to hear some stories about how they kind of handled it or what sort of things helped them navigate
or at least get more information as we've stated here.
But we're not going to speculate. It's not constructive at this point.
We'll definitely pick this up.
It was a busy time.
2017? If that's what that means.
Maybe that just happens to be the number that one of the case numbers begins with.
We'll find out, I'm sure.
This is something we'll, as you said, update everyone about.
Yeah, the other case number begins with 19.
I'm not giving away too much information here.
So maybe 2019, maybe something happened.
Maybe there's two cases. Who knows?
Again, I'm not going to speculate.
Okay, so let's get back to what we were talking about a moment ago.
Rob and Gila, you've just gotten back from your second shots.
Is that correct?
That is indeed correct.
Wow. How was it different than the first shot?
Honestly, the whole process went even faster today.
It took us longer to get to the vaccine site than it did to get the shot
and wait to make sure we didn't go into anaphylaxis.
And yeah, the whole system ran very, very smoothly today.
And we got kicked out of the selfie site.
Someone came over and yelled at people in the selfie site
and sent them to the outside selfie site.
What is a selfie site?
There is a step-and-repeat at the end of the hall, basically,
at the Javits Center that is designed for people to take pictures.
Like, hey, I got my vaccine.
Next to a wall of thanks, which is very lovely.
There is a wall of thanks, which is very lovely.
And then a little step-and-repeat that says, you know,
vaccinate New York, whatever.
And a guy was taking his picture there,
and then one of the staff at the facility said, no, go to the other one.
So there is an official MTA selfie site there.
All right.
So, you know, we had been instructed, and we took the MTA selfie too.
But yeah, very smooth.
I will say that my arm does hurt a little bit.
You just got stabbed in your arm, so it should hurt a little bit.
Yeah, it didn't hurt.
The nurse who gave us our shots today was very, very skilled.
Neither of us had any pain at the injection site, but now it hurts a little bit.
Right, which is similar to the last time.
I mean, it didn't hurt at the time.
Now it's a little painful at the injection site, and we're a bit tired,
a bit lethargic.
I expect to lose tomorrow, from what I hear.
Tomorrow might be a wasted day as far as recovery.
Well, it will be a nice day for it.
It certainly will.
But all things considered, we're doing great.
That's good to hear.
And we are happy to be through it.
That is great to hear.
I've got mine coming up in a couple of days, my second shot.
I was at the dentist today, so I'm feeling some pain.
So I guess maybe pain is the theme of the show tonight.
It's great to know that we're taking these steps, these important steps.
I'd like to look at a letter that one of our listeners sent us from Joseph in Manhattan.
He said, you folks all sound too young and healthy to have procured vaccines.
What's the deal?
Well, Joseph, first of all, thank you.
Thank you for thinking of us as young and healthy.
I don't know.
Are we young and healthy?
It's open to interpretation.
But here's the thing, and you might not know this,
and a lot of people might not realize this, but it's a private bit of information, how people qualify.
Sometimes people are happy to give away that information.
I happen to tell people, yeah, I've got asthma, and that qualified me.
I asked my doctor, okay, and I honestly didn't expect to qualify.
I asked her, would this allow me to get a vaccine?
She said yes.
I didn't push for it.
I didn't campaign for it.
I just asked a question.
And when she said yes, what am I going to do, argue?
I'm going to say, no, I don't think I've got that bad a case of asthma.
So if you qualify under any of the comorbidities or age qualifications, take the vaccine.
There is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.
But most of all, it's not something that other people, other than the folks who are administering the vaccine or qualifying you for the vaccine,
it's not really shareable information.
So I know that you're curious and you want to know if we jump the line.
I can assure you nobody is jumping the line here at all.
If you are out there and you look at all the different comorbidity qualifications from your particular region,
whatever part of the world that happens to be, and you qualify, don't feel guilty.
Take the qualification and take the vaccine.
The important thing is to get that vaccine, to get as many people vaccinated as possible so that we can get past this thing,
so we can go back to the studio, so I can see you people in person.
That's really what it's all about.
And it's really frustrating to hear this information, again, rearing its ugly heads through social media,
through idiotic mass media, and just through people who are not informed.
Well, we try to stay as informed as possible and share the information that we obtain.
And that's what we do here on this radio station.
That's what I hope everybody listening tries to do as well.
And I've been very, very impressed so far with, I'd say, everybody I know who are all doing the responsible things.
It's going to get easier.
If you've had frustration getting the vaccine, I know it's frustrating.
I've helped dozens of people get appointments, people who qualify, obviously.
And here's the good news.
Here's a good sign.
Of many of those people, I've noticed that some of them have canceled their appointments.
Why?
Because they got better appointments, because they were able to do it themselves weeks after I was able to procure an appointment,
say, in April or something.
And the reason it's gotten easier, there are more vaccines available,
and they've actually been able to navigate the site themselves and find something earlier.
It's funny because people thought I'd be offended that they canceled the appointment that I got them.
No, cancel.
If you get a better appointment, I will not be offended.
That's good.
Just make sure you cancel because that opens it up for somebody else.
The fact that the sites are changing, the New York State site has changed.
It's no longer possible to just keep refreshing.
You have to swear that you're a robot, and sometimes you've got to do that capture thing.
And I always get into trouble with that because I have different opinions as to what is a traffic light and what is not.
So it's harder to have an advantage if you're automated,
but that means it's easier for individual people to go out there and get their own vaccine.
So I'm hoping to see more of that.
And I think by the time we hit May, we'll have more vaccines than we can administer.
In Europe, that's a problem right now.
There are vaccines being wasted, and there's a lot of false rumors going around about one of the vaccines,
which is simply not true, but it's inevitable that misinformation gets spread around.
So please don't be a part of that.
Help guide people to logical conclusions.
I see, Alex, you're joining us.
How was the traffic getting to Pennsylvania?
It was pretty bad, I have to say.
There was a massive car accident, about a four or five car accident on Interstate 80 heading west.
That's why I'm a bit late here.
Well, welcome.
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, well, thank you.
It's good to be here, as always.
What did I miss?
Well, I mean, we can talk later about other things, but we're talking mostly about the vaccine right now.
We're going to talk about a lot of other technical issues,
and we're going to have a special guest at about half past as well, so expect some fun.
But on the vaccine, I know you had gotten your first shot.
Have you gotten your second shot yet?
I got my second shot last week.
You did?
How have you fared?
I'm eight days into my second shot.
The second shot really knocked me on my butt.
I had the Moderna shot, which seems to be a bit rougher on the system than the Pfizer.
I think that's what they give the weaker, feeble-minded people, is the Pfizer shot.
The Moderna shot makes it even more—
Are we going to do this, Alex?
Because you know we got the Pfizer shots, Rob and Gila and me,
and you're the only one that has gotten the Moderna shot.
Right.
I think I was the only one that qualified for it in terms of mental and physical fortitude to withstand that kind of—
That's what they told you.
They told you that.
Okay, you know, it's—
But it really did—it knocked me out.
I mean, that first day was pretty rough.
My arm felt like a boxer at the end of a 12-round battle.
I just had his arm pummeled repeatedly by his opponent.
Because you know what that feels like.
Absolutely, I do.
Like I said, I have the mental and physical fortitude to deal with the Moderna vaccine.
Such a hero.
Yeah.
And it really—the next day was really rough.
I was in bad shape.
I had a series of meetings and things, and it was really horrendous.
Take the day off.
If you get the second shot, take the day off afterwards.
If you don't feel bad, then have a nice day to yourself.
You deserve it.
Yeah, I think it's good advice.
But really, I mean, those side effects sort of bled into the second day after, but I was fine.
I mean, by that second day, I was fine, and I was grateful for the side effects, and I feel more confident about life right now.
Well, that's good.
That's a nice side effect.
Yeah.
So, okay, good.
And it looks like Voltaire is joining us.
Voltaire, is that you?
Yes, hello.
Hey, how are you doing?
I see him.
Wow.
Pretty good.
I'm getting my last vaccine on Friday.
Your last.
Your second.
You're not getting a whole bunch of them.
Okay, good, good.
No comment.
And any side effects for you or for the first one?
No, kind of looking forward to seeing how hard it hits me because I hear the second one is the hardest.
Yeah, it's kind of like a challenge to see, okay, let's see what you got, vaccine.
But the important thing is that you are becoming immune to coronavirus, and the more people who do that, the more normal we can get back to, if that's a good sentence.
I just heard news from the CDC a couple of days ago that if you're vaccinated, it's safe for somebody who is not vaccinated to be around you.
It is without any kind of masks, without any kind of social distancing.
Now, that doesn't mean you can mill around with a whole lot of people because those unvaccinated people then are milling around with each other.
That's not safe.
But if you're vaccinated two weeks after your second shot, that's when it's fully kicked in, then it's actually safe.
And there are people that I have not seen in a year, over a year, that I really would like to see.
And some vaccinated now, some not.
But life will start to get back to normal.
Here's a letter from Charlie in New Mexico.
Dear Emmanuel Crew, greetings from Albuquerque.
I wanted to share my COVID vaccine experience with you.
The New Mexico Department of Health created a portal where anyone who wants the vaccine can register for it at cvvaccine.nmhealth.org.
I registered for the vaccine in early January, and I got my first shot of the Pfizer vaccine on March 3rd.
It sounds like New Mexico is one of the few, maybe only states, where everything is being done at the state level and things seem to be going smoothly with it.
Counties are beginning to reopen in earnest now, but hopefully that's not happening too quickly.
Well, Charlie, unfortunately, in some places, Florida, Texas, it is happening too quickly.
And what that means is that more people will get sick, more variants will start to gain strength, and it's even possible that the vaccine itself could be thwarted.
You know, if you have a lot more variants out there because more people are getting sick, the chance of one of those variants being of the kind that can get past the vaccine itself, it becomes stronger and stronger.
So, you know, I know there are lots of political scandals these days.
It's hard to pick one.
But if you're going to pick something, go for the people that are directly killing their citizens.
And the governors of Texas and Florida, I think, have blood on their hands for pretending this is over when it's not.
All right.
Any other thoughts on coronavirus?
Or should we move on to more hecarism?
There's the other bit of news that came out this week where, as of yesterday, I believe, if you're 50 or over in New York, you're eligible.
That's it.
You don't have to worry about other comorbidities or anything.
But age 50 and older in the state of New York, you're eligible to go find an appointment and get vaccinated.
So that's good news.
That's different in every state.
That's New York.
I was looking at Washington.
Washington is still 65.
But there are also comorbidities.
You know, some states you can actually get a vaccine if you smoke.
That's it.
Just if you're a smoker.
It seems unfair.
Maybe it is.
But that's the rule.
And if that's the rule, then take advantage of it.
There also seem to be some anecdotal stories.
I don't have hard evidence for this.
But there's a lot of stories that seem to be going around of pharmacies that are dispensing the virus, at the end of the day, having left over a vaccine.
They're dispensing the vaccine.
They're dispensing the vaccine, not the virus.
As people run away from pharmacies now.
Good heavens.
Sorry, CVS stock goes down.
No.
If you're at a pharmacy that's dispensing the vaccine, good heavens, I can speak.
At the end of the day, they have leftovers that have not been administered.
And that will just get thrown in the trash.
So, some people are hearing of places where they're just put up an announcement.
Hey, anyone want this who's in the store?
You can come get it.
There is a service you can sign up for at the Javits Center where you sign up by 7.
They'll call you at 6 in the evening.
And you basically come on a standby line.
But you can get a shot.
Yeah.
There are many, many ways to do this.
New York State is the one I specialize in helping people with.
But there's also New York City.
There's independent pharmacies.
There are many, many different kinds.
And, of course, every state is different.
It's going to be an interesting year because we're all going through this.
And I think we'll emerge in a much better frame of mind.
Okay.
So, moving away from this and on to other important announcements.
As you know, last year we weren't able to have the Hackers on Planet Earth conference in person.
Instead, what we wound up doing was having a very nice digital conference, HOPE 2020, a nine-day event.
And we said at the time that to make up for not having HOPE 2020 in person like we were planning,
we were going to have a conference this year in 2021, an in-person conference.
We've announced the conference.
It's called Extra HOPE.
And it's scheduled for this August in person, St. John's University.
August 13th through 15th, actually, is the date.
We don't know if it's going to happen.
It's currently being planned as an in-person event.
And, again, it'll be a conference that was supposed to happen last year.
But I have to be honest.
I have to be honest that it doesn't look promising based on how other states, how other countries are doing at the moment,
and the fact that getting back to normal traveling does not seem to be something that will be in place by that time.
If it does happen, I think we'll know pretty soon.
We'll know, I'd say, within a month, maybe six weeks.
For now, tentatively, Extra HOPE, August 13th through 15th, St. John's University.
I guess if we had to have a slogan, it would be don't count on it.
But that's unfortunately what we have to say because, you know, we had to book a date.
We are moving forward with plans.
But if this does not happen, then 2022 for sure, and it'll be bigger and better.
Keep checking.
Hope.net will have more information as that comes in.
The worst case is you're really, really planning ahead for 2022.
And that's the way we're looking at it.
We really have so much to look forward to.
But this is us being really versatile and able to pivot when things change or, in this case, don't change what we've been doing.
It would just be a different thing.
But we've had a lot of success in gearing up, and we'll definitely give a heads up to everyone well ahead of time as soon as we know more.
Other news.
I got kicked off of Twitter.
Did I tell you guys this?
I got kicked off of Twitter.
We all knew it was going to happen at some point, but I guess we just didn't know exactly when.
I tend to say what's on my mind.
And, you know, I said it.
This time I said what was on my mind, and it got me in trouble.
Do you know what I said?
Can I say it on the air?
I think it is allowed.
Is it allowed?
I said Memphis.
I said Memphis.
Actually, a listener wrote to us.
I think a few listeners wrote to us.
This Lobsterminator, thank you for your letter.
If your tweet contains the word Memphis, your account will be locked.
Yeah, it sounded unbelievable.
I and several people I know tested and got locked out.
Now I'm waiting for my appeal to be processed.
People are having fun by changing their display name to Memphis and contacting customer support accounts of companies, et cetera.
Oh, I see what's...
And then they reply to you and say Memphis, and then they get banned.
Yeah, but apparently what happened, the blue checkmark users are immune.
So they didn't...
It's just another reason why it's unfair the way Twitter operates.
I can never get verified.
Anything affiliated with us cannot get verified for whatever reason.
And so we were a victim to this.
Yes, saying Memphis, and right away, my account was locked.
I had to file one of these appeals.
And they were basically saying that if you remove the tweet, then your account can come back.
But if you don't remove the tweet, and I had no intention of ever removing the tweet, it could be very bad for you.
Well, they figured out their problem after a number of hours and just, without comment, restored everybody's account.
I would like a comment.
I would like some kind of explanation as to what in God's name these people are doing.
Just saying the word Memphis.
It's bad programming.
It's bad policy.
And I think it affected millions of people.
And we certainly, at 2600, since our 2600 Twitter account was not affected, we were talking about this.
And a lot of people were replying.
And if you look at the thread, you see that every other comment was deleted by Twitter because it violated their policy of not saying Memphis.
Has anyone been through anything like this?
It was pretty surreal.
I hadn't been through it myself, but I said Memphis, but I obscured the word, you know, like you do with a swear.
Asking Twitter support, you know, which Memphis is it that we can't talk about?
Is it the one in Egypt, the one in Tennessee, the one upstate?
I mean, there are so many that it could have, you know, I don't know which Memphis got up Twitter's nose that day.
Well, it was anything in regular letters that spelled Memphis.
Some people used Cyrillic and they were able to get away with it that way.
It's good training, you know, for when the hammer comes down and free speech is completely made illegal, ways that you can get the message out anyway.
So there were all kinds of people talking about Memphis without actually saying Memphis.
Doesn't this seem like an indicator that they are kind of playing with these sorts of filters a bit more?
I know the climate, along with a lot of the talk in the government and elsewhere about Section 230 and all that,
like this is kind of an indicator that it's like, yeah, this may have been half of something else they wanted to filter,
and it just kind of slipped having any kind of review and disrupted a whole lot of stuff,
which points to kind of what we're facing as far as who and how those types of decisions are made and when.
I had one other run-in with corporate America over the past couple of weeks.
It turned out my – I have an American Express gold card.
I've had it since I think 1988 or thereabouts,
and I discovered that despite all of the hoopla about how you don't get charged international transaction fees if you have a gold card, you do, because there it was on my bill.
So I called them and said, hey, what gives?
I have this card.
It costs me.
I have to pay an annual membership fee, but the only reason I have this card is because I don't get charged international transaction fees.
And the person on the other end of the phone was as confused as I was.
It turns out there's different kinds of American Express gold cards, and I have the kind that now charges you.
They didn't use to charge, but now they charge you.
So I was asking, well, what is the advantage of me keeping this card?
And the representative said, you know, there might not be one.
There might not be an advantage because other accounts don't have an annual fee, and they have the exact same type of benefits that this one has.
So other than the prestige of having this stupid gold card to show people, is it really worth the money?
So I said, you know what, I'm going to think about this.
Well, less than a week later, I got a letter in the mail from American Express thanking me for my request to update my address, which I had never made that kind of a request.
Then they said, we noticed that we don't have, and I'm not going to get into what they're asking for,
but they're asking for personal information, additional personal information that they are now required to have.
And if I don't give them this required personal information by, I think yesterday was the deadline, I won't be able to use my card anymore.
So I want to thank American Express for making the decision for me that this card is not worth it, and I'm not going to hold onto it.
But just, it's weird.
If you call to ask about something, it's like you get punished, and you have to give them more information.
I'm not going to give it to them.
There's no reason they need to have this information, and I can do just fine without.
I think too many people just answer whatever questions they are asked by companies.
You don't have to do this.
You can certainly get by without their services.
They can't get by without customers, though.
All right.
We are welcoming a special guest with us right now.
There is this new service that you might have heard of called Zoom Escaper, and it's basically designed to help you escape Zoom meetings.
We've all wanted to do this.
There might be some people right now that want to do this.
Video conferencing scenarios of all sorts.
It allows you to self-sabotage your audio stream.
This is their words.
Self-sabotage your audio stream, making your presence unbearable to others as if your words themselves aren't enough.
Developer Sam Lavigne is joining us right now.
Sam, can you hear us?
Hi.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
What an amazing service.
Where did you get the idea for this?
Yeah.
I guess, like, I've been sort of working on a series of projects for the last about five years or so that are about digital sabotage in one way or another.
And the first thing I made, which kind of doesn't really work anymore.
It sort of works.
It's called Slow Hot Computer, and it just is a website.
It's a website you go to.
It's slowhotcomputer.com, and it just makes your computer run, like, slow and hot, you know, so that it makes it, you know.
Kind of the idea being the computer becomes almost unusable but not quite as a way of limiting your own productivity.
Wow.
So, like a government-owned cryptocurrency?
Yeah.
Actually, I made it before.
Like, sort of the cryptocurrency miners were web-based, at least as far as I know.
So it's just like downloading an image over and over and over again, and I think just, like, adding some numbers or something.
And it's actually kind of hard to get a website to, like, almost crash your computer but not quite.
It's a little tricky, you know.
It's just, like, a little – it takes, like, a little finesse.
And I think they've changed sort of some – like, you know, the way, like, Chrome and Firefox work now is, like, a little bit different.
So it doesn't quite have the same effect.
Like, your computer doesn't quite get as hot and as slow as it used to.
So, anyway, that was one.
And then I, you know, did another project, which is a little bit different but sort of inspired by a similar impulse called The Good Life.
And that was a collaboration with TegaBrain.
And in The Good Life, you sign up.
It's like a – it's an email service.
You sign up to receive every single email that exists in the Enron email archives.
So the Enron email archives are, like, this incredible – really incredible resource, this archive of, like, all of the emails that were sent between the top executives at the Enron Corporation.
And that were then, like, made public by the government.
Maybe for retaliatory purposes.
I'm not quite sure why.
But they were made public.
And so in this project, you sign up, and then you get every single email, which is, like, 225,000 emails, direct to your inbox over the course of, like, seven years.
Wow.
So, you know, and it's actually this really nice way of, like, looking through that archive, which is this really interesting historical archive.
You kind of see this huge corporation crumble from the inside.
But also, it makes it so that you're getting these emails being like, hey, you've got to come to this meeting tomorrow.
And then you're like, oh, God, what meeting is this?
I don't know.
And then it's like, oh, it was from 2001.
Well, do you get to be the same person?
Can you take on their identity so that you actually have to go to meetings?
You just see them all.
So you just get all of them.
Wow.
And you don't get a particular person's inbox.
It might be handy for Enron ex-employees.
I might have lost track of some of this to catch up a little bit.
Yeah, it could be.
It could be if they want to relive that time.
Remember that special time.
I'm not sure that that's, you know, maybe it's not the fondest memories they have.
But, I mean, what's interesting about something like that is that it's kind of like an act of intentional obfuscation.
I mean, it makes it harder for you to use your own email.
But, of course, it also means that a company like Google, like if you have a Gmail account,
it's kind of harder for them to use your email also, right, because you're sort of polluting your own data set.
I hear that.
And that's something that I encourage people to do with their Gmail accounts because Gmail gets to know you way too well,
and that's not a good thing for you.
Now, Sam, is it possible?
We're on a Zoom call right now.
So let's say that you want to get out of this Zoom call.
Are you able to demonstrate some of what you've designed?
Yeah, I can turn on the old.
Oh, Sam, we seem to have lost Sam.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, you know, you're blanked out there for a second.
Can you hear me now?
Now you're reverberating.
Is it okay?
This is annoying.
I kind of want to.
You might want to unmute.
Yeah, I want to end this call.
Is it okay?
Sam, maybe you should take some time.
A jackhammer?
Really?
You seem really busy.
I heard a dog barking, but that might have been Alex's dog.
So, yeah, that's the Zoom Escaper right there.
That was like the grand finale of the fireworks show there.
It's basically like a sound board, you know, so you go to ZoomEscaper.com.
You have to, unfortunately, install one other piece of software, which is like a virtual audio.
And once that's installed, you can kind of set the output of the Zoom Escaper to go to that virtual microphone,
and then you set your microphone in Zoom or Google Meetings or Microsoft Teams
or whatever to also be that virtual mic.
And then, you know, you can add echo to your voice or simulate a bad connection
or make it seem like there is a man crying in your apartment
or upload your own audio effects as well.
Well, you can upload your own dog's barking because, obviously, they'll know that's not your dog.
Or maybe somebody in your household who's yelling at you,
hey, that's Stanley, he's upset, maybe you should go.
I guess, you know, there's no limit to what you can screw up a Zoom call with.
Yeah, and, I mean, I had built, like, this project sort of emerged.
I had built, like, another project about Zoom called the Zoom Deleter.
And the Zoom Deleter is just like a little, like, cross-platform.
I mean, it's not, unfortunately, I didn't make it for Linux also, but I made it for Mac and Windows.
And, you know, it just, like, sits in your system tray, your menu bar,
and it just looks for the presence of Zoom on your computer.
And if it finds Zoom, it just, like, immediately deletes it, you know.
So I made the Zoom Deleter.
And then, like, you know, I was quite excited about it.
I had it on my computer.
I was trying to get other people to put it on their computers.
And then, you know, I think I ended up getting, like, 107 downloads.
There was not a lot of people willing to, like, adopt, you know, this application.
And so I was like, oh, I got to make something for people that aren't quite ready for the Zoom Deleter.
This is definitely, this might get people to use Zoom more because it's so much fun.
Are you able to tell how popular it's gotten?
It's been, like, really out of control, actually.
Like, I mean, I don't have any tracking stats on the website itself.
I just didn't put, like, a, you know, I'm just not tracking usage there.
But I do have, like, a video tutorial.
And that's just a tutorial of, like, how to get it set up.
It has, like, 200,000 views.
And it made all these, you know, it was, like, on the news a bunch.
And I think it was on, I think they talked about it on, like, the Daily Show or something.
So I think, unfortunately, the cat is, like, a bit out of the bag, you know, with the Zoom Escaper.
So my thoughts is that, you know, at this point, people will hopefully just sort of take up the spirit of the Zoom Escaper
and the spirit of sabotage, digital sabotage and maybe digital self-sabotage
and find new and exciting ways to do it on their own.
Speaking of cats, what do you have in the cat department?
You know, I didn't add any cats to the thing.
You know, that could be, maybe that's version two, is cats fighting or mewing in the background.
Or a lot of, you know.
And you have video effects, too.
I'm looking for suggestions.
You have video effects, too, right?
So a cat walking directly in front of the camera, perhaps, and refusing to move.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
We can help you with all kinds of ideas.
Alex, you have something.
Yeah, Sam, thank you so much for being on Off the Hook tonight.
And I just love the idea of this.
I love the sabotage component of all of this.
And I think one of the reasons why you're seeing this resonate with so many people around the world
is because Zoom is something that over the last year has just really taken over our daily lives.
It's really become an encroachment in our lives.
And we are expected now to jump on Zooms at the drop of a hat, right?
It's the slightest provocation.
And I think to the exclusion of ordinary alternative forms of communication
to which we had become accustomed for decades before that.
So we just think about how annoying it is to, quote, unquote,
hop on a Zoom or stand up a Zoom for two people to talk nowadays.
That is completely common.
People refuse to use the telephone anymore.
If it's just a two-way communication, you can use a full duplex communication method
like a goddamn telephone.
But instead, people have to stand up a Zoom call,
and then you're stuck staring at your camera, looking awkward,
trying to pretend that you're not multitasking while you are multitasking.
You want to get off the call.
You don't want people to see you.
There's a strange etiquette that goes around this about turning your camera on.
Who's the dominant person?
If they don't have their camera on, should you put your camera on?
It's a very strange cultural phenomenon that we have that has really encroached in our lives.
So I see this as being a great way for people to fight back, in a sense,
to push back a little bit against Zoom and against this thing,
this piece of technology that has really just run rampant over our lives.
It reminds me, too, and I think that there's a philosophical component to what you're doing here
because as much as Zoom has taken up a lot of our free time or time that we might have spent,
let's say, on the telephone, going around, talking to somebody, watering the plants,
vacuuming, whatever you wanted to do while you were on the phone,
now you're stuck Zooming and you can do nothing else.
But we also, we're human beings, and we should have leisure time.
And so I love the fact that you called this the Zoom escaper
because you're trying to escape the Zoom so you can go back to being a normal human being.
And I remember, I want to leave you with a quote here, too, at the end of this monologue.
So this is from one of my favorite philosophy professors that I ever had,
and he's been dead now for about 17 years.
He's the Reverend Dr. Cyril Barrett, who is a fellow at Campion Hall,
and he wrote about the philosophy of leisure.
And according to Cyril, he said,
According to the ancients, it is the proper state of man.
Work is what is necessary for survival and a necessary condition for leisure.
It is not an end in itself. Leisure is.
It is the end, the goal of human life.
So I will end there and say thank you for letting us take back a little bit of that leisure time.
Yeah, my pleasure.
It's been really fun to see people take it up.
And like I said, I just hope that I mean, you know, these these things change.
Like Zoom is here this year for obvious reasons.
I'm sure, you know, in a year or two, it'll be something else that sort of dominates all of our lives and makes our lives miserable.
Right. Well, I think it's really important that we develop an imagination in ourselves and in others,
finding ways to push back against these technologies.
Right. It's more than it's more than just a technology.
I think it's an attitude that we've developed where we have to always be accountable, always be reachable.
I remember a few years ago, somebody came up with something that did something similar with cell phones,
basically made a car honk or something that that made it seem like it's impossible for you to talk on the phone right now.
These things become necessary because we're expected to always be on call.
And Zoom is just the latest example of that.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Another thing, I mean, I think it's really interesting to think about here is like, what does it mean?
Like, I mean, we're talking about like, you know, always being required to be on these Zoom calls.
Like, what does it mean that like the same thing that is your work machine, right?
That is like this sort of means of production, right, is also the thing that's mediating all of your social interactions.
How do you have pushback against a device that like is also your window to being a social person in the world, right?
And that's kind of why I'm exploring, I guess, this idea of self-sabotage,
because in a way you do have to sort of self-sabotage your own ability, not just to work, but also maybe to have social communications.
And I, you know, I find that concept and that quite fascinating.
And the question of how sabotage can play out in this interconnected context that we find ourselves, you know,
something that's really, really worth exploring.
Go ahead, Rob.
Yeah, I love that this is sort of forcing us to take another look at this thing that's become such an intrinsic part of our day-to-day interactions,
both for work and for other purposes.
I was talking to someone recently about how, you know, it used to be an acceptable thing that you weren't online all the time, the Internet.
Before the mobile era, the Internet was something that you would go home, sit down in front of your computer and go,
okay, now I'm online for a while.
But like I frequently throughout the course of my day will go, sitting in front of my computer will go like,
this has been a lot, I need to get away from this.
I'll go across the room and I'll get on my phone.
And that's my break.
But I just really appreciate it.
What was the, was there like a particular event or just a question that sparked creating this project for you?
I don't know if there was a particular event.
Like I said, it's sort of been like a longstanding, like a longstanding interest of mine,
this question of like digital sabotage or self-sabotage.
And I just felt maybe like, maybe it was the right moment in sort of like in the year or something to make it, you know,
like I wasn't really, I wasn't really expecting it to go as, I guess like as viral as it went.
But yeah, like I'm always trying to think about, you know, different ways to like, yeah, to explore that basic concept.
Now you basically, the story exploded over the past week.
I imagine somebody wrote about it and then somebody else wrote about it and just kept spreading from there.
Have you been inundated with suggestions or emails?
Is Google trying to buy you, anything like that?
I mean, no, I mean, I've been getting a lot of, yeah, I've been getting a lot of suggestions for different things to add.
I mean, I, you know, a lot of them are things that I actually like really don't want to add to it.
Like, you know, a screaming fight or, you know, there's just some things that I think that like might be,
maybe to the person who suggested the idea sound funny, but then maybe if I implemented them,
they would actually be very upsetting, you know?
And maybe it would sound like, for example, like an abusive situation.
And that's not something that I'm trying, you know, that's not what I'm trying to do here.
So, you know, I've had like a lot of, a lot of suggestions that I've decided not to do.
I do think I've had some, you know, some pretty good ones.
I think some obvious ones to add, like, you know, cats fighting.
I think it'd be a completely reasonable addition to do, you know, for sure.
Or raccoons fighting. That's awesome.
You know, like someone like really, really badly playing the drums or like doing like bad bass guitar would be,
I think that would be a pretty nice, a nice addition.
Or the ice cream man coming down the street and you have to go right now.
Yeah, the ice cream guy, your doorbell getting, you know, rung over and over again.
I think these, those are some of the ones I got and I think those were all, you know,
those are all definitely going to kind of make their way in at one point.
Voltaire, you had something?
Yeah, I've noticed that one thing I really like about a theme deleter is like that you can use it on your own volition
and you get to choose when you can use it.
Like there's a lot of assumption that when people think about the Luddites that they were against all technology.
But in fact, they were only, they were about taking control of technology
and destroying a very specific type of technology that was harming their ability to make a living as laborers.
Wait, that makes us Luddites then. So we're Luddites?
No, I'm saying the Zoom is like, it's like the correct, as opposed to the incorrect understanding of Luddites
because you only destroy the technology that you're, the specific technology that you're opposed to,
but you can still keep, you deploy, it seemed, you only deploy it to get out of meetings you don't want to be in.
But then when you have like, let's say a virtual D&D meetup or something that you want to be in,
you can, you're not destroying that.
Sam, have you had any negative feedback?
No, not really. Not really. I mean, I've had some people, I mean, it's funny,
like some people have told me or written to, you know, written on like whatever my video comments,
like, oh, this is going to be so awful for teachers.
And then, you know, maybe my response is like, well, actually, I mean, I actually am a teacher
and it would just be like, you know, how great would it be if they were talking in class,
you know, like talking in class with, you know, sound effects or not. Right.
So, like, I think, I think for the most part, it's been, it's been pretty, pretty positive.
And a few people who I think don't, don't, don't appreciate the sensibility of the project have been upset, upset by it.
We have to go, but Sam, tell us how people can, can get, get the Zoom Escaper
and also any information that you want to give out, anything that you need people to help with.
Sure. Yeah. So you can go to zoomescaper.com and that's where the website is.
And it's also an open source project.
So, you know, if you, if you, you know, are a coder and you want to, you want to help out,
or even if you're not a coder and you want to help out, there's a good, it's on GitHub and you can,
you can get in there and, and make a pull request if you want, or just send me a message.
I'm always happy to, to, to accept contributions and to work with other people.
So zoomescaper.com and my website is, is lav.io.
So thanks so much for having me. It was, it was really, really nice to get to chat with all of you.
Thank you so much for, for creating Zoom Escaper.
Can you leave us with one, one final Zoom call, Destroyer?
Yeah, I can, yeah, I can see if I can see if I can do something.
I think my favorite one is actually just the man crying.
The man is, the man is the, you know, I am the man.
I am the man we meet in your apartment.
This is, this is it. This is it.
So thanks so much guys.
Thanks so much guys.
Good night. Good night.
I'll see you next time.
See you next time.
All right.
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