thank you
and
this is wayne kramer from the mc five
nobody
kicks out the jams
like w b a i
he's
we don't have a uh... this is w b a i new york
it's eight o'clock time once again for off the hook
training
the
behalf
god
And
The very good evening to provide the program is off the hook Emanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening joined tonight by Rob
T firefly
And then your microphone is not working for some reason. Let's because someone pressed this button for no reason try that again. Good evening
It's a very popular button on the console is the Rob shut up button
No, if you if you press that button, then this this switch doesn't do anything. Why do you press that button? Who does that?
And Kyle
Yeah, I'm here and loud your button is fine loud and clear. No, you're fine. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, it's another
Another snafu filled edition of off the hook. I'll try not to smack the microphone this week, but we'll see we'll see what happens
We we all just remember that Alex isn't here this week. So
Yeah, there'll be there'll be a bit of a gap
But we'll we'll fill that gap with listeners listeners can call in to our phone number 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 8 7 7
We'd like to hear from
From the people out there. I know we only had a couple of minutes last week
So we'll have more time this week for all sorts of things like that
We've been very busy busy working all sorts of projects digitizing the the hope videos
making that project all finished working on the
The hacker digest finishing that up. So all of the 2600 back issues will be digitized by the end of this month
Working on a brand new issue working to try to save the hope conference. We're
So many things going on at once. It's it's it's really incredible
Of course, we find time to come in here and do radio as well because we're out of our minds
But the world of technology marches on or sometimes stumbles on as as it were here's an interesting
Story, I just happen to see a little bit earlier
Do you know that it's possible to tell what people are typing on keyboards?
By listening to the sounds that the keys make now, there's a number of ways you can do this
Obviously the easiest way is a touchtone phone you hear different tones
You can decode them by ear or with a an app or a program or something like that
And then there are some
Badly designed
ATMs where different keys make different beeps bit different tones and you could actually tell somebody's password that way they make it very easy
But a recent study by the Southern Methodist University
Found that researchers were able to predict what people were typing on their keyboards, you know these things
yeah, they don't make little beeps you shouldn't be able to tell but
You can tell what people are typing the keyboards just by listening to the sound those keys are making now according to the mail online
researchers recreated a real-life office environment with ambient noise and
All the distractions that come with it and ask some of the volunteers to type a few words on their computers
Now by using the microphones of smartphones placed on the same table
Researchers were able to analyze and predict what the volunteers were typing with 41% accuracy
I find that really interesting, but you know what?
What this particular?
Publication decided was the headline to this story
Hackers can detect what you're typing by listening to you type
Yeah that why only them
the thing is all throughout the story it basically says researchers are figuring out ways to do this and
Then the the takeaway is that hackers can do this, right except that they haven't done this the researchers are the ones figuring it out and
It's just you're blaming hackers for something that someone else is figuring out. I think the word is attacker
Uh-huh. Yeah, I mean it is it is true that this came from the Daily Mail, which is not known as the most subtle
source of news there they're very into sensationalizing things and and of course flying the h-word when
When it even remotely involves anything computer like well, I got this they refer to the mail
But I got this from a site called the quint comm I don't know what that is
But they're pretty sensationalist and then that's the headline they decided to go with let me read a little more of the story though
some of the challenges for a hacker because now we're into the
Illegal stuff apparently some of the challenges for a hacker would be to know
The material of the surface the user is typing on because the acoustics from a wooden table would be different from that of a metal
one
So hackers when you want to steal someone's password call the office first and ask what kind of table they have
Do you have a wooden table? Do you have a metal table? Thank you very much. No. No, we're just curious
Just taking a survey. I'm sure you can find a pretense that'll work
The hacker would also have to know the location of the phone on the table and if there are multiple sources recording the sound so
It's me again. Can you tell me how many inches onto the table the telephone is?
Thank you. Okay. No, this is just this is for health and safety. We like to keep track of these things
According to a report in Forbes researchers
Back to researchers now because the hackers are the ones doing it illegally
The researchers are the ones apparently that figure it all out. Are these like hackers dressed up as researchers?
You know, it seems like they found a way to you know that the people figuring this out are the hackers
They're the ones that are thinking this way and saying hey, this is a security risk and telling people about it
That's what hacking is all about
anyway, according to this report in Forbes researchers had developed a tool that can hack Skype and
Then
Because hacking Skype is the easy part
But then after you hack Skype
You use the microphone to listen to the sound of the keyboard when the user is typing and it's called Skype and type
It's a program that has the ability to detect specific frequencies that match each of the keys on the keyboard
Yeah, you can't make this up. That's
So now under a subsection called the anti-hack a hack like this is not easy to detect
Which is why it is even more difficult to counter. However
Researchers believe that something as simple as a tablecloth
Can help block vibrations that get relayed back to the smartphone
Remember when we were growing up everyone used tablecloths for some reason we stopped and this is the result
Well, maybe maybe we can get back into the habit of using tablecloths and then our passwords won't be stolen
that's that's according to a spokesman from the tablecloth industry who believes that we have lost our way and that this this might actually
Make for a more secure America
This is a wake-up call for smartphone makers to bolster smartphone security and ensure that sensors and microphones
Don't get hacked easily and as for smartphone users
It's advised that they turn the keypad sound option off in settings
Which will stop the clicking sound when you type on the phone. I'm not sure what setting that is
The keypad sound option. Oh the thing that actually makes little beeps when you're typing when you're typing a password
That's a different that's a different device
Yeah, then the the keyboards that need tablecloths
Exactly. Yeah, because those are those are actual keyboard. I think they're trying to give comprehensive advice here
Using people because you're calling on a phone and and you're not typing a password right talking to somebody on the phone
I think they're talking about calling on a landline and
Hearing the passwords being typed on the on the keyboard. Can you get to the part about?
Covering up the sounds my mouse makes no, but I can get to last but not least which is the best paragraph of this
This article be aware of your surroundings when you are using electronic devices that have sensitive information on them
You know how they say even the walls have ears
Who we it shouldn't be, you know what they say even the walls have you know, I'm not gonna quibble
I'm just glad I made it through this
And that was an article from the quint comm whatever that is. I have a theory about this
I think someone came up with the phrase Skype and type and then thought we've got to come up with some sort of exploit that
uses that this would make sense because like that's an awesome name and it would be a shame to let it go to waste but
Also, I think this might lend some
Illumination to why so many
computer enthusiasts and hackers
Like myself seem to enjoy keyboards with mechanical switches model M's your cherry switches things like that
Because that that must be all kinds of all kinds of extra obnoxious to try and listen to and decode. Mm-hmm
it's interesting the distinction they're making with
the ambient sound of the clicking itself and the correlation between that in
Proximity to a solid surface like a table
I mean, it seems like they're saying that if it was sort of not
Directly contacting that hard surface even ambient sound is out of the picture
But I think the the crux of the whole vulnerability is that the microphones are picking up clicking sounds
so I'm not quite sure that is it the dynamics that it's so loud when
It's directly contacting that table when you click that it registers high enough for the phones because I mean if it's if it's in
Even close proximity and it's on something like a tablecloth even like a carpet sample. That's much thicker, right, right
I still think there's gonna be clicking and that's part of what's being decoded from the article
So I'm left a little unsatisfied with exactly
where the threshold of
Vulnerability begins and ends. Well, I think the key is if it's no pun intended if keys sound different
You know if one end of the keyboard sounds different than the other end if the top sounds different in the bottom
Everything's gonna be unique as long as you know the system
And maybe you know the way to find out is you just listen for a while and certain keys are typed more than other keys
And like you'll be able to figure it out like which side of the keyboard. Mm-hmm. The phone is on you have to know
Yeah, I think that was in the preamble
If you tell somebody to type something and then you register that
Okay, I mean you might not even have to develop the the skill yourself
There's probably a way that an app can be designed to do just that
interesting
interesting
vulnerability or way to
eavesdrop, yeah
Always more there's definitely sensors all around so developed by researchers exploited by hackers. That's what I learned
Researcher tested hacker approved. Oh, okay. So back into the corporate world where we're never surprised by what happens, but
Did you know this is according to an article in TechCrunch?
there's a movie ticket subscription service known as movie pass and
Guess what? They've exposed tens of thousands of customer card numbers and personal credit cards because a critical server
Was not protected with a password
Yes, it's true
Mossab Hussain a security researcher at Dubai based cybersecurity firm spider silk found an exposed database
One of the company's many subdomains
The database was massive containing 161 million records at the time of writing and growing in real time
Many of the records were normal computer generated logging messages used to ensure the running of the service
But many also included sensitive user information such as movie pass customer card numbers
These movie pass customer cards are like normal debit cards. They're issued by by MasterCard
They store a cash balance which users who sign up for the subscription service can use to pay to watch a catalog of movies
Now for a monthly subscription fee movie pass uses the debit card to load the full cost of the movie
Which the customer then uses to pay for the movie at the cinema
Why can't people just pay with money that they used to seem so
Complex and you're giving out all this information
The the people at TechCrunch reviewed a sample of a thousand records and removed the duplicates a little over half
contained unique movie pass debit card numbers each customer card record had the movie pass debit card number and its expiry date the cards balance and
When it was activated that database had more than fifty eight thousand records containing
Card data and was growing by the minute
They also found records containing customers personal credit card numbers and their expiry date which included billing information
Including names postal addresses all kinds of things here and among the records reviewed we found records
They say with enough information to make fraudulent card purchases. It's not hard
some records, however
Credit where credit is due contain card numbers that had been masked except for the last four digits
Okay, well that's something at least the database also contained email addresses some password data related to failed login attempts
They found hundreds of records containing users email addresses presumably incorrectly type passwords, which was logged in the database
And this was verified by attempting to log into the app with an email address and password that didn't exist
But was only known through this method and our dummy email address and password appeared in the database almost immediately they say
None of the records in a database were encrypted. Let me say that again. None of the records in the database were encrypted
All right. We haven't got to the point yet where hackers could actually
Use this system to do bad things. I don't think maybe they don't get to that point, which is good
But movie pasted issue a statement movie past recently discovered
No, you didn't you didn't discover anything a security researcher discovered it and told you that's what happened
Movie past recently discovered a security vulnerability that may have exposed customer records. All right
Rarely as does a non-trump person say a sentence that I have so much trouble with
But okay movie past. Yeah, you got your name, right, but you didn't discover anything
Security vulnerability. All right, that's that's probably true. But may have exposed customer records. No, we did expose customer records. The proof is right here
Let's continue after discovering the vulnerability
We immediately secured our systems to prevent further exposure and to mitigate the potential impact of this incident
Movie past takes this incident seriously and is dedicated to protecting our customers information. We are working diligently to
Invest the only time you hear the word diligently is when something like this happens
To investigate the scope of this incident and its potential impact on our profit margin not now on our customers
But come on once we gain a full understanding of the incident
ie never
We will promptly notify any affected subscribers and the appropriate regulators or law enforcement
Wow, we won't bet the security researcher gets in trouble because that's that's what happens in the hacker world, you know
He discovered this he discovered that security vulnerability
In one of the company's many sub domains any one of you can do the same thing
You know, you should always be exploring these systems looking for vulnerabilities and I
think people should
Should make it known when they find something make it known to the company. Certainly make it known also if there's
Poor security choices if people's private information is being exposed. They deserve to know that the world deserves to know that we need to expose
companies
organizations that don't take security seriously that use your information and
And don't safeguard it they need to be exposed and and too often we're afraid to to share that information
well
There's people that will listen. We will certainly listen a lot of these organizations that we're reading stories from they will listen
It's important to keep exploring to keep
Exposing this information and sharing it when you find it
Yeah, and that helps with people ultimately in their own personal security because they're they're understanding and the tips and and
and news regarding some of this stuff it just helps build a
stronger sense of where things where technology can go wrong in society and and it becomes a common part of discourse
instead of something that's relegated to only researchers that might think or imagine something as
having
those kinds of
Problems and and so forth. So yeah, I don't know. It's yeah, and it's pretty amazing that like in cases like this
It's it's not it's not anyone really cracking their way into something. It's the company left something
very private out on the open web basically a working database that they managed to get a new email address into
Just by fiddling with it like like described in the article and it was out there on the open net and who knows
Who had a who had eyes on this before this researcher came up and and made a public issue of it and
you know this this sort of thing goes on all the time and
Companies really don't seem to suffer any ill effects from leaving their customers vulnerable to having their info
Just leaked out there like this, you know
it just it happens but if if a person were to go and get this info they would be set they would be such a
criminal and be
Just you know have the whole armada sent after them. I don't know plus movie pass is kind of a hot mess of a company
Anyway, I mean they've they still haven't figured out how to get a sustainable business model together
It's really the same one. I was having trouble last year. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't think they were still around
Yeah, they couldn't they stopped doing a certain amount of movies per month because it just did not work on paper
And yeah, it's the same Wow
Okay, the other thing is they're you don't try to work on that and and the security ends up being like kind of an afterthought
and I think it's really hard when when companies are designing their their systems that they're
You know able to both have a production system that they're relying on all the time and also
You know adjust it and add security as needed
Without breaking it in the process. I mean that can also hamper development of whatever product you should be focused on
While you're trying to create this kind of network that's going to protect all of that hard work
So it's it's a careful balance in it. It's a matter of
Building that kind of expertise into what you're planning on doing and if it isn't there
Consciously making time and putting it forth effort to to adjust it without totally breaking all of the you know day to day
That's gonna keep you alive
Well, I think Rob you raise a very good point and saying that who knows how many other people had access to this beforehand
You don't know and that's why it's so important to expose it when you find something
That's why it's important for us to be looking for these things
actively
Just because you're not a quote-unquote security research. It does not mean you can't
search for security vulnerabilities and let people know when you find them because there are all kinds of
Criminals out there and yes, they're criminals not hackers criminals that go steal things
Use people's identity for fraudulent purposes and all sorts of other things like that. They're not gonna tell anybody
They're gonna keep doing this and if the vulnerability is there for 10 years
They will do it for 10 years until somebody comes along and says hey it left the front door wide open
You better fix that. Yeah, I mean it's it's kind of rule one in the security
Fields that if you find a vulnerability you never assume that you're the first one to find it
You're just the most recent one to find it and you know
They assume that people have been taking advantage of it for long before you got there because it's very possible
Yeah, and that you're under attack all the time
I mean there there are interested and curious people out there and so it is
Incumbent on you to take as much interest in your own stuff, especially if you're relying on it for a business or whatever
It's so much fun to turn on a system for the first time connected to the net and see how long it takes for somebody
To try to log in it's usually within a few minutes
And it's usually from some other part of the world some far away, but somebody is trying something
I don't think it's a person's probably some kind of a script
But it's it's incredible how many attacks are going on out there?
So it's it's it's vital to spread the information. I understand people are afraid to do this because
Every place from schools to businesses to governments if you reveal a problem you become the problem
that happens a lot and and people are needlessly punished and
The folks that actually have the knowledge are the ones that pay the penalty
So, you know we have our secure drop
Address
2600 comm slash secure drop gives you all the information on how to
Securely submit something to us. We've had so many interesting things over the the year or so that we've had this up
we've gotten all kinds of information and and we're able to talk to the people that send us the information without knowing who they are and
Oftentimes we can do something with it. So we're not the only people that have this this valuable
Way of leaking information or whistleblowing or what have you just sending something that you're not comfortable being associated with
There are many news organizations that that use this and in this day and age. It's it's a vital tool
So 2600 comm slash secure drop for information on that and go to secure drop that org for information on
On the system in general you spend a lot of time working on this Kyle
Yeah, and just all the other projects and and great work that the freedom of the Press Foundation and other organizations like that
EFF, of course also working on those things Mozilla and and and so on but yeah, it is it's incredible
To be able to to use this and it's a great great way to send us tips without you know, necessarily
Giving us like, you know your whole backstory or anything really about you
That's less important than the story or the vulnerability and and it's of course
Just augments all the other ways you can submit
articles, of course the magazine or of course find our PGP keys online and and the myriad addresses that you can
Reach us. It's it's all
About creating a way for you to express yourself and and for us to share this kind of really crucial
Technological information you use the the tour browser to to send us stories now
the difference between sending an article if you were say in
Exxon or something and you decide to send us an article using our articles at 26.com email address. That's all fine and good
But now there's a record of you
Sending an email that maybe they can't see what the email is. Although in big corporations. Oftentimes they do look at what you are
What you are actually writing in the email so, okay, maybe he is PGP and you encrypt it
But if you do that, there's still a record that you sent email to that particular address
This goes for anything you send email to with the tour browser
Not so easy to find out who you're communicating with and that's the only way to connect to that secure drop
Address and start that that that process going it really gives you a strong advantage
I mean as with anything else you'd want to take necessary things like, you know, don't advertise that you're doing this
Don't tell a lot of people about these things, of course taking us all of those
Sort of obvious steps you might do to be reasonably secure around doing something like that
But it is it's really far in a way. It gives you a
large advantage over
methods like you mentioned and some places a trail of people people get
Punished for just installing the tour browser in some schools
Some some workplaces that's considered suspicious right there
So it's it's there's always there's always something that will make you appear suspicious. Usually it's just being intelligent
Yeah, it's like when when BitTorrent became a big thing and people were getting punished just for having any sort of BitTorrent traffic whatsoever on their networks
at work or school or whatever, but things like, you know, Linux district distributions and things like that would often use BitTorrent as
as a more efficient way to distribute their perfectly legitimately distributable distributable files
And then then other products started using the protocol
I think the Warcraft game used BitTorrent behind the scenes in some capacity. We distribute our show on BitTorrent. Yeah
We've got that and so like it's not it's not the tech that's good or bad
It's it's the tech that's doing whatever the people behind it set it up to do
Exactly, just like any technology can be used for good or for bad
It's it's up to us to decide which and it's up to us not to blindly follow just because it's cool
We always have to have a critical eye towards these things and figure out ways to break them
That's what we're good at. Here's an interesting story about T-Mobile. Yeah, Ruth Johnson
Didn't know exactly who rang her phone and threatened her around 20 times in 2014
The person on the other end said he was John Edens from the US Marshals with a warrant for her arrest for stealing a car
She was behind on her payments later turned out that this John Edens person didn't have a warrant
Nor was he from law enforcement at all instead
He was a debt collector with a history of stalking and domestic violence who had managed to get a hold of Johnson's phone location data
He did this by pretending to be a US Marshal with the Georgia Fugitive Task Force to T-Mobile
Yeah, he was able to social engineer T-Mobile, but he wasn't a hacker. He was a criminal
T-Mobile
They're definitely not hackers. They then provided Edens with the location of Johnson's phone in a handy Google Maps interface
Pinging the phone in industry parlance. This story comes from motherboard
It's really fascinating and fearful is the word Johnson first used to explain the episode in the phone call with motherboard. It was very fearful
Motherboard previously reported on Edens case using court documents and sources in the bounty hunting industry
Edens was sentenced to one year in prison for impersonating a US officer and now Johnson explained in an interview what it was like to
Have her phone tracked her story demonstrates the very real human impact that the black market use and sale of phone location data can have
I was very upset with the phone company because I was under the impression
that you had to get a court order in order to get information such as that out and
T-Mobile basically put my life in danger
The harassment was relentless Edens turned up at Johnson's place of work. Someone banged on her home's door at
3 a.m
Edens turned up on her porch another day
Johnson said her husband had been recently killed and Johnson didn't know if the harasser was somehow connected to his murder
Yeah, compounding her fear her teenage daughter moved 10 hours away to be with her grandmother just to feel safe
She says you cost me my family. She says that to T-Mobile
now asked to respond to Johnson's case a
T-Mobile spokesperson
Said to motherboard T-Mobile has a specialized legal team that reviews each emergency request from law enforcement for customer information in
Rare cases we receive unlawful requests when this happens. We immediately investigate and introduce additional safeguards. We're needed
We also always cooperate with legitimate law enforcement inquiries and sometimes illegitimate ones
And investigations into these cases of fraud. We are completely open about our work in this area in our yearly
Transparency report. Well, that ought to be a good one when it comes out at the end of the year
but yeah, you're
Not only you're you're dialing information how you talk to your location where you are right now
The wrong person getting their hands on that even the right person getting their hands on that. It's scary. It really is scary and
It's information about all of us that we willingly put out there and there are safeguards you can turn your phone off
You know, there is an off switch
Yeah, but this is also an example of again a very very very old technique social engineering is nothing new social engineering is stuff
That companies especially, you know phone companies have been dealing with for decades and decades
it's it's something that I know a couple of guys who present a panel on that every couple of years at hope and
And you know, the the techniques do not get more complicated
They just involve lying to people and having them having them give you what you want
It also speaks to you know
the the the idea of having privacy at all and the importance of it and and that you know surveillance itself can then
be flipped around as
And and wielded as something that you know does matter and you hear a lot very often people saying well, I don't care
You know, I don't care if the government has these mechanisms or does this surveillance or you know?
Has an arrangement through the phone company or something because it doesn't affect me or I'm not doing anything wrong
Well, what if someone else is doing something wrong and they abuse that system all of a sudden your sense of privacy is
Really just that it's only a mere sense of that
yeah, and as as as just mentioned if a tool exists the tool is not good or bad the people using it are good or
bad and we're doing doing things that are good or bad and
the thing was something like this is if
like we talked about this years ago with the Apple iPhone thing where the government was demanding a backdoor into the Apple software and
If such a backdoor exists
There's no guarantee that only the quote-unquote good guys are going to be the ones using it
We can see we can see plainly that that is not the case
And oftentimes you won't even find out about it until somebody does something so egregious that they're caught
But it can go on for years. You can you can have these systems abused for a long long time
Wasn't Pompeo talking recently about how he wanted back doors and things or that he wanted to reopen that issue
That was I think last week. I don't think we have a story about it
But obviously the conversation has come around to that. And so yes, sir. Well, we do have a story
We do have a story about the Manhattan DA
Looking at innocent people's Google phone data. That's that's that's close enough
Law enforcement authorities in New York are joining a nationwide trend to push Google to share phone data on anyone using its location tracking services
Near the time and scene of a crime this story comes from Gothamist
The technique uses a type of search warrant known as a reverse location or geofence warrant
Which gives authorities location information on Google users who have Android phones or use apps such as Google Maps
Yeah, you notice it's not saying people. It's saying Google users
I mean, obviously they're people but you have to be a Google user to be victimized like this now from this bucket of data
Law-enforcement then tries to figure out which phones may be tied to suspects or possible witnesses the use of this surveillance technique has not been
confirmed in New York City until now
An investigator for the Manhattan DA revealed it during testimony last week in a case involving a politically charged assault from last year
You might remember this defendants are members of the Proud Boys a group of pro-trump right-wing extremists
I'm going to use a few more adjectives, but whatever who allegedly beat up for leftist protesters believed to be associated with Antifa
Outside an Upper East Side event last October the four protesters refused to cooperate with police and authorities were unable to identify them
As part of their attempt prosecutors sent Google a warrant for phone records near the conflict
That's according to the New York Times now in further testimony
The investigator confirmed that the warrant was a reverse location search warrant that's according to a transcript provided to WNYC
Everyone's getting involved in this story here
the court records show that this dragnet data request captured the location data of
Multiple people who were put under law enforcement scrutiny, even though they had nothing to do with the crimes under investigation
according to the investigators testimony authorities were looking for location records from quote
Google's Android platform and Google based apps such as Google Maps that utilize location services
The warrant requested records from multiple sites including where the conflict broke out on 82nd Street and other locations
Where participants in the clash may have been that evening the tech company forwarded an anonymized list of Google device IDs
Based on their request investigators then crossed referenced spreadsheets of Google users at various locations
Attempting to find multiple appearances of those same anonymous numbers
Anonymous numbers authorities said they eventually learned enough about several the accounts to determine the individuals were innocent
But wow, they had to go through and and and survey them and and and figure all that out
Without them even knowing we received approximately two or three records back from them that met our specific search criteria
Said an investigator through follow-up investigation
We were able to determine that we did not believe that the individuals who are the account holders here were involved in this incident in any
way
And the Manhattan DA's office declined to comment on how the data was used in
Minnesota though people police rather have said that after selecting anonymous users of interest from Google's bulk records
They then get another warrant to make the company hand over the name of the cell phone user
Now Google has declined to comment on the case or how it responds to such law enforcement requests in an email Apple told
WNYC that it does not track the geolocation of devices and thus does not have the ability to identify all Apple devices near a given
Location and time so I guess this is a big advertisement for Apple at this point
Anyway, and landlines and landlines and pay phone and not using the damn phone all the time and carrier pigeons
Just walking around enjoying life and semaphore. I
Take issue with one bit of that if you're using a landline, they've pretty much got a good idea where you are
That's very true. That's very true. Yeah, that's a point, but it's distinct. It's not the exact same thing. It's not the exact location
Well, it's it's the exact location, but it's not the exact location as it changes as your mobile, right?
It's like you're there, but you don't necessarily I mean, it's always known that that's where that phone is
But you aren't necessarily being tracked all the time. Yeah, Apple just negated everything positive
I just said about them because the story just popped up online from the verge
I'm just gonna read you the headline Apple warns. You may permanently discolor your Apple card if it's stored in leather
That's I
Mean, why is that even a new story?
This is the
It's a metal card made of titanium
So get another card if you discolor your card that they're treating it like it's some kind of thing that it's like a car or something
They're warning you you might you might discolor you who cares who cares about discoloring a damn car
Where are you supposed to keep it? I don't know
well
the whole Apple aesthetic is like shiny white things and shiny silver things and everything's all bright and shiny and
You you're the fool who has to go and use the thing that you have from them
Therefore discoloring it and getting your fingerprints all over it and just being all grubby and that's that's your problem as an Apple customer
You know I would think if I don't like the way my American Express card looks I can call them
And I'll send me another one if Apple gives you attitude and tries to blame you
You know with one of their geniuses or whatever saying you didn't use the card properly
Yeah, I'm moving back towards Google now. It's a ping-pong game here on what company annoys me the most
Well, that's the kind of that's a kind of headline that I get from from Apple all the time. You know
So annoying okay. It's probably really important to some people though
That is probably earth-shattering news like they're just losing it and and and you had to rub it in we did collectively
How about the leather who takes care of the leather? Well? Yeah, maybe it doesn't react well to the Apple car
Do you ever think of that mm-hmm all right? Hey? We're gonna take phone calls 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 8 7 7 I like to
read a
listener
Letter because listeners do write to us and you can do that too
You can join the few people who write these days OTH at 2600 calm. That's our email address
Yeah, the few people who use email these days. It's it's crazy people communicate in bizarre ways and
Email is such an easy way to do it and so many people don't use it anymore
They don't even use the alphabet anymore really I don't know how to communicate. I really don't it's all
Emoji, I think that's well. Hopefully you can call a phone 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 8 7 7 anyway dear Emanuel
Kyle interested telecom historians my first time writing, so I apologize for the length. Oh, please don't apologize for the length
It's it's great to see long letters occasionally
I was driving through Leslie, Georgia on my way back to my hotel, and I saw a sign for the Georgia rural telephone Museum
I
Didn't know about this. I felt I should stop as I find your shows interesting
And I'm glad that's a reason to stop at a phone museum. It was 4 p.m.. The museum closed at 5 p.m.
So I only had an hour to explore
I'm a listener both off the hook and off the wall discovered your show quite some time back on the iTunes podcast list back around
The Kevin Mitnick arrest and the horrors of Bernie s in prison
I've seen an issue of 2600 magazine on a newsstand in North Carolina and was
Tangent tangentially familiar with you from from that and from the first show of off the hook
I've listened to your coverage of tech and hacking news avidly and anticipate your next episode
off the wall fascinates me with Emanuel's adventures abroad the traveling by shipping container ship and
Visiting Cuba and North Korea were beyond belief. I look forward to
More forthcoming I also enjoy hearing Emanuel and Kyle sharing their opinions of the current state of the world which
We've been known to do for many many hours anyway back to my purpose for writing
I was awestruck by the number of old handsets at the Georgia rural telephone Museum
And then I walked into the next section which had old operator stations and more handsets
Then I passed by the first solar panel installed on a telephone system still mounted to the top of a pole within the museum
The next section showed a small switching group everywhere. I turned I saw a different handset or candlestick phone
They have displays of how wiring on poles has changed through the years with the with the tops of poles
Strong with the different types of wiring use that's fascinating alone right there. I
Believe that's called open wire. That's called open wire. Yes, we're carving a conversation about that on a train in Europe with some people
I don't know why or maybe that was in the States
Yes, and they eventually multiplexed it so they could fit a lot of calls on it. Uh-huh. It's very fascinating
I'd be shocked if one of you have one of your listeners hasn't brought this place to your attention
Well be shocked because this is the first I'm hearing of it
I know some of you have a true love for this equipment. I took over 100 photos
on of all things an iPhone
So many of historical precursors, I'd like to share them with you if you haven't had a chance to visit it I know
These won't be the best quality love to see them. They'll send them to LTH at 2600 calm
I expect some harsh yet helpful criticisms from Kyle. Well, you're a photographer Kyle. So over the photography. Well, I'll do my best
So yeah, definitely send us those photos unless it would contain in this email, you know
I have a printout here
So I don't know if photos were attached if they were attached then our apologies send them again, or we'll track them down
anyway, the
He talked to one of the employees spent the last 15 minutes or so showing the full extent of the collection
Turned on a couple of switchboard. He assured me the second telephone created in the collection was genuine
We chatted I explained my fascination was due to your show
I intend to pass along your website and podcast info on my return and hopefully that won't shock them too much
He told me I shouldn't pay for a second emission
But it won't bother me one bit to pay again to see this place continue and that's that's the spirit
Their website should not be a reflection of the quality of the museum. I'm familiar with that
Grtm.org
Grtm
Georgia Rural Telephone Museum org their Facebook page is a bit better, but still not a proper reflection
That's because you know, they put all their energy into the collection just like we put all our energy into the magazine
So our website sometimes has things to be desired
They have some equipment that was working in the past
But need some parts and a good bit of love and care
To get functioning again, which I'm sure some of the guests you've had on might be able to provide and when I get back, North
Carolina, I'll scan their brochure, which is much better than a website and send it to you
And I hope if you have the opportunity to travel to Southwest, Georgia that you will visit this unexpected pearl
I'm sure if you visited or do visit that it'll be a story to share with your fans
Thank you Wayne for that amazing letter and for that experience and I hope that turns people on to go to Southwest, Georgia and visit
this museum
Yeah, I just want to add if you're at all interested in learning about telecommunications
Oftentimes these places are looking for volunteers and will allow you to help out
It's a great way to meet other people that are also interested in this stuff
it's a great way to learn about some of the systems very often the
curators of these types of spaces are
Members of the telephone pioneers of America or they're
retired or otherwise affiliated with one or the other local or national or
other telephone companies in the vicinity and they may have a lot of advice for you on perhaps a
Career path if that's your interest or just other
general sort of associated
hobbies and arts often
Radio and other things too. So it's it's really a cool way to get involved and to learn about the older
Telecommunications systems and I find at least for me personally that is very instructive about imagining what's going on
I know I've said this a lot of times but imagining what's going on in software imagining what's going on in
Central offices and data centers and places that you you really can't get into and and look under the hood that often
But if you get a sense of it and you you talk to enough people you can start to
start to imagine like the inner workings of how all of that works and
Why it has progressed and evolved in the way it has from those older systems. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's the best way
To get your your actual hands on the old technology. It's so fascinating
we've experienced that at the
the maker fairs when they were occurring here in New York having kids come up to the phone van and and play with the rotary
Dial phones figure out how to use them go to the phone booth and see what a 1950s phone booth is like
There was such fascination with that
it's so important to preserve the technology whether it's old computers old telephones and
Learn from it because very often you can design something better by looking at the old technology seeing how it works seeing how it all
Came together and just letting your imagination go wild
yeah, and I I know as as I was learning about the old analog phone system as
90s phone freak it was very intertwined with my learning about computer science itself
I mean the analog phone system was basically the biggest computer in the world and everyone had a terminal and it was glorious
It was yes
So yes, definitely visit that that phone museum and if you have another one that you know of let us know about that
We're gonna take some phone calls 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 8 7 7. Good evening. You're on off the hook
Speak up
Okay. Well, you can't be shy you gotta say something. Good evening. You're on off the hook
Go ahead
Yes, what's on your mind, hi, my name is Ron and I'm
I'm a long time listener to your show. I enjoy it a lot
I'm coming to an inevitable time in my phone service
Being kind of a Luddite. I never got a cell phone till 2012 and now they're moving into a new I
Guess the next generation and they're cutting off your copper
No, no, no, no, okay. Oh you two you're getting a cell phone for the first time
You know, that's all I have and and it's it's an I it was a hand-me-down phone. Oh, I see
Okay, I I hooked up with Verizon. I don't I live with a woman who's you know, retiree from her, right?
So, you know, I support it at a phone company, but um, they told me that I'm gonna have to get a new phone. I
Don't want a phone that can tell me tell the world more about me than I know. I
Just want the same old simple type of phone
But I don't know if it's available anymore. Okay, so let me let's have this straight you're using a cell phone company
Which I imagine is Verizon Wireless and they're saying that the phone you're using on their network won't work
They're gonna they're gonna change their system and it won't be able to be used anymore they have more
What kind of alternatives are they suggesting and are there offerings that are also flip phones
Sure, yeah, especially if you've had it for a while and you know, it works for you
Yeah, well, I mean if they're changing frequencies that that would explain it but otherwise there's no reason that phone shouldn't continue to work
Yeah, well what kind of what kind of
Correspondence, did you have regarding this or where did you hear about it? Was this sort of a sales thing?
Like what's your gut feeling or this was like a an official?
Kind of transition that you were alerted to was their formal
To a
free paid phone
You know, I'll give them $50. It'll last me three months or so
But uh, I'm I'm interested in who can I go to now that will keep it simple like I had
Yeah
What what you want is is known nowadays as a feature phone
Back then it was just called a phone
But basically a feature phone now is what is what is used to describe any phone?
that's not a smartphone as we know them today and
so any provider you go to
Should still have a number of feature phones available because it is popular for wait
It sounds like the opposite wouldn't have fun with all the features be the feature phone
You're saying the phone without all the features is the feature phone, right? I didn't come up with it
That's the feature the lack of features is the feature Wow, but that's that's what they call them nowadays
So like the old flip phones the candy bar phones the clamshell phones that we used to have before smartphones
Those are now known as feature phones and most of the providers keep at least at least one or two one or a few of them
Available for people specifically like yourself like like yourself caller who are not interested in all the bells and whistles we have now
I just thought I have it. I have an old Omni point phone from the
1990s that has been sitting in a desk and I wonder if I can even get power to it
Would that even work today? Would that even get a signal? I'd love to find out
Yeah, I mean there there were things like the old the older networks
Which were actually switched off at the at the you know service level and you can't connect to anything
Yeah, I bet your Omni point phones like TDMA or some other legacy technology
That is not backwards compatible with like 4g and LTE networks today
But that's you'd have to look at the spec very I just want to see it turn on and have those those three little clicks
It may when it turned on I remember that part
Yeah, it might be CDMA or TDMA like a legacy legacy like really like pre
GSM two little lines for text. That's all I got. But anyway, sir
I advise you hold on to that phone for as long as you can have a backup in mind
But don't ever throw it out and just see see how long you can you can make it work for
well
The
Feature phones, you know of any feature phone
I don't know of any particular ones
But generally I think if you walk into any of the major phone companies these days
They will they will have some sort of thing for you because it is a thing that a significant amount of people still need
It's it's it's a smart move phone companies
There are so many people out here like our caller who want to hold on to their old devices that they're all flip phones
I don't want all these newfangled features on the non feature phones or whatever you call them
So you need to cater to them you need to you need to you know value them as customers because they're they're loyal customers
yeah, you could I just want to say you could probably check all the usual suspects as far as carriers and use the term of
art that Rob was indicating and as long as I guess it's okay with with your
roommate that you're
Using a different carrier. I'm sure they would have at least some kind of offering as well
But I am I'm with you Ian and Rob
I think like we should have like a retro Western electric or some like really stripped down
Phone that runs on the modern network
I would love to see some really durable stuff or really kind of
Innovative designs instead of kind of the same old slab of glass
Also one one thing you might want to do caller is if you're involved with any local senior citizen services
Or stuff at your local library things like that
You know, maybe maybe someone there has has a better idea where you can directly go and find things like this
That's a luck. Thank you. All right. Thanks for your call. Let's see if we get another one in good evening
You're on off the hook. Go ahead. Oh
Hi, yes, I'm the person who's complaining about Verizon and then got immediately cut off. I'm not making any
Any judgments here any I could say what happened on your end? I got a busy signal
Well, we just we just had we just had silence
You just had silence. Yes. Hello. You still there? We're still here. Do you hear us? Okay
Well, I'll try to go easy on Verizon, maybe they'll let me talk. Okay, here's the thing
What there are 800 numbers that I have tried to call two of them
In fact, both of them happen to be radio stations one is in Canada and one is in America
I assume and they will not let me through every time I call I
Get this Verizon message that says you cannot dial this number from your calling area
I've heard that recording in a long time used to be with with toll-free numbers that you would have two numbers one for the
State that the number was in and one for the rest of the country, but I haven't heard that system used in in decades
I remember now that I don't can I just while I was waiting to get on I remembered I had that experience with a New York
City
Agency, you know what?
They call the blue pages where you look up city government agency and they wanted if you were calling from New York City
They gave you a two-and-two number they wanted you to call a toll number
But if you were calling from outside the city, you could use the 800 number
And when I tried to use the 800 number, they gave me that message, but both of these
One is in Canada, you know
What one is the Canadian radio station from Hamilton Ontario and I tried many times to call and I said maybe they don't want calls
From America, but that doesn't make sense. Well one night I heard somebody call in from Albany
Obviously take calls from New York State and the other one is our own Michio Kaku
Who has I think he still has a radio show a commercial?
AM radio show on Saturday night and I got the number from the website and it's a country number and I've tried to call while
The show was on I've tried to call other times and I get that message cannot call from your dialing area
Um, may I ask what is your dialing area? Where are you? I'm in 212 here
That is strange
but there are easy ways around this if you know what the what the
Restriction is getting a Google voice number and and and dialing out of that is one way to do it
And and there are other but wait not now. You can't suggest a Google service. Let's try anything
But that I'm on the calling card is I'm not gonna hold you to it. They're calling a radio station
They're not giving away their lives. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding
That's what a radio station with an 800 number
Not allow you to call from a particular calling area
Chicago lives in New York, you know, I don't know what what city his show comes out of
I don't think it comes out of New York. They used to have it on
WWRL
When that was a talk station, I was just listening to that station the other day at 1600 a.m
They were playing all kinds of good music
Yeah, yeah, right Indian
We call it the thing the thing about setting up an 800 number is this goes back to the days when long-distance cost
Significant money right because when you set up an 800 number you're paying the phone bill for the calls
And so you have the option to if the call that's coming in is going to be too expensive because you're paying for it
You have the option not to not to accept long-distance calls into your 800 number because otherwise you could you could go broke
Nowadays, I don't know quite how that applies because long-distance is basically cheap
And you know what else they they they charge a surcharge if you call an 800 number from a payphone
They charge the people receiving the call an extra 25 cents, which is completely unfair and apparently there's no way to block it
Wait, so I'm just hearing that is if maybe it's only it's not a long-distance technically a long-distance call
Maybe it's it's creating a boundary saying it's denying the 800 call because it's better
For the person in two on two to be calling the local version instead that saves them on on an unnecessary
800 you touch upon a good point. That should be a local phone number. Have you tried looking for the local phone number?
I haven't tried. I don't have the computer here
I had to ask someone to look it up for me on Misha Cocker's website
Uh-huh
And they had the 800 number is the contact number for the radio show and I can't imagine a radio show that gives out an
800 number that would not accept a call from anywhere the the other thing a local call
The other thing that this might involve is there's that there's often been weirdness when trying to call something like an 800 number
from a VoIP line instead of a landline or from a cell phone instead of a
So this is this is from a landline. That's very interesting
It's kind of ironic because Michio Kaku used to follow us. We could have just asked him
And now we can
Well, he's a he's a theoretical physicist they do that definitely definitely try finding a local version
That's just a hunch and and it report back
We'd love to know how you got around this but it may be something where they're trying to lower the amount of 800 calls
If there's an alternate, but they're not promoting the alternate. There's always a way
There's always a way to get a phone call through don't ever tell us you can't call
I remember when they used to tell me I couldn't call Albania
When that country was cut off from the rest of the world and I went up to Canada to call them
But I did it. Yeah, that's the important thing. I was get another phone call really quick. Good evening. You're on off the hook. Go ahead
Speak up
Okay, that's that. Good evening. You're on off the hook. Go ahead
Anyone there? No, okay. We have silent people tonight. Good evening. You're on off the hook
Hey, how are you good?
Listen, I'm trying to solve a couple of problems from callers before the last one
It might have to do with the fact that some you know, 800 is free for the caller
But if the subscription service for the people who have the number so it used to be that some some
Subscribers meaning the people who had the number didn't accept calls from their local area because they figured why should I pay for?
The call when whoever calls me can just make a local phone call exactly that the phone number has to be known to the person
to do that well the
The what do you call it?
The 800 numbers do have all the list of people who call them because they're built for every call
And the other thing is for the caller before
Through the
existential network
He could get I I didn't ask for this I I am on Obamacare
I essentially have Medicaid and my evil provider
One day sent me a phone in the mail
Because they say that I needed a lifeline. They call it. I'm sure my evil provider is not the only one
Others do this as well for Medicaid. I
Basically have now they send me a smartphone. It used to be a dumb phone
But it's free it's free I even have into a free internet access if I wanted I don't
Yeah, because I don't want to give up my location, but you know maybe you should look into his own Obamacare or yeah
I'm a Medicaid provider. It's it's it's true and the Obama phone. I I know a couple people that
Took advantage of that and and enjoyed that that
Benefit, but it is it's also true for telemetry medical devices all these
Monitors and things that people need perhaps for
Pacemaker and so on often have a system to report back to a doctor over phones
And that is part of the care so also a very interesting thing to pursue. Thanks for that call
Thanks for helping out another caller and please tune in next week right to us OTH at
2600 comm and for off the hook. This is Emanuel. Have a good night. Stay tuned to WBA on New York
Mr. God for his squad a marine for his Queen a GI for his cutie pie
I
This is Wayne Kramer from the MC5 nobody kicks out the jams like WBA I New York