and discussing the history and culture of the legendary Garifuna Black Caribs.
Again, that's Midnight Ravers, Friday, June 14th, midnight to 2 a.m. for the legendary Garifunas
on WBAI in New York, 99.5 FM. The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York. The time is seven o'clock.
Time once again for Off The Hook.
For the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood.
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off The Hook. Emmanuel Goldstein
here with you on this Wednesday evening. Joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly.
Good evening.
Alex.
Good evening.
And Kyle.
Hey, what's up?
Well, we have quite a show for you tonight, but we'll be talking about
the whole Maker Faire thing that you've probably heard about.
But we also have other late breaking news. Alex, I saw you all over the news last night,
and apparently something happened with The Strand. So maybe fill us in. What's going on?
Sure. I'd be very glad to. Things really came to a boil with our Strand matter.
Every channel you were on had that happen.
Is that right?
You got good media.
We did. We had a huge press conference yesterday after the Landmarks Preservation Commission had a
vote as to whether to designate The Strand as a landmark, something we've been fighting
since late 2018. And things really came to a boil over the last week. I'll explain a little
bit of the backstory here for listeners that haven't been keeping up with this issue.
So I'm a lawyer. My law firm represents The Strand bookstore.
The city of New York wanted to designate The Strand as a landmark,
which sounds like a good thing. However, it's a little bit counterintuitive because it comes
with a lot of costs, a lot of encumbrances. The Strand is a 92-year-old bookstore.
Its existence month to month could be really an ongoing and marginal proposition,
given the economics of bookstores today and online markets, et cetera, et cetera.
So we've been fighting the designation because it would add so many layers of costs,
administration, architects, CAD renderings, things that operationally The Strand would
need to do on an ordinary and not necessarily daily but very routine basis. A bookstore
like this just can't sustain those types of costs. So we've been fighting the city on this,
and in particular, the Landmarks Preservation Commission. We made some really good headway
with them over the last few months in having several meetings. We put on the table a preservation
easement that would have created a win-win situation by having the building not regulated
by the city, not regulated by landmarks, but the facade protected by what's known as an easement
that would be held by a third party. And they would determine whether certain changes to the
building could be made. All of this is a non-issue because the building itself is not in any danger
whatsoever. Nancy Bass Wyden's family has been an extraordinary good steward of this building for
many decades, and they are the owners of The Strand. So after working with the city to try
to create something called a master plan, last week about seven or eight days ahead of the public
hearing that was scheduled for June 11th, we wrote to Landmarks and we said to them,
we're asking you for really good reasons to delay this vote. Number one, we need more time to create
the master plan. We want you to look at this before we decide to go forward with landmarking.
If you want our buy-in, you want our collaboration, we need more time to do this. And by the way,
it's a hell of a lot more expensive than you led us to believe it was. And number two, on February
5th, way back when this year, we sent you a FOIL request. FOIL is the New York State equivalent of
FOIA. So it stands for the Freedom of Information Law, by which you can access certain agency
records and they have to give them to you. Those are records that belong to the public. So this
FOIL request about their documents that pertain to the designation of The Strand and 826 Broadway,
it was just languishing for about five months. And they never gave us any of that information.
All that information should be, we are entitled to it and it's relevant to how we create this
master plan. And then Friday, late Friday, they told us, they called me up and said,
we're not going to give you that adjournment. We're going to push forward with this vote on
Tuesday, whether you like it or not. I pleaded with them for about an hour not to do this,
because it was a major breach of trust and it would blow up all the progress that we made.
And if you want to work with us, why would you do this? And they barreled ahead with the vote.
We were at the commission on Tuesday when they made the vote. And not only did they unanimously,
all the commissioners, vote to designate The Strand as a landmark, ignoring over 12,000 signatures
of a petition to oppose this landmark designation, ignoring major authors like Fran Lebowitz,
Gary Steingart, Hank O'Neill, Nicolai Erips, a lot of really great people had spoken on behalf
of The Strand, people that would ordinarily support the preservation of these buildings.
But they realized they could have a very destructive effect on The Strand,
ignoring all of the testimony, all of the letters that were written in. And they decided to rely on
their own so-called wisdom that they would be able to regulate this building in an effective manner.
And they unanimously voted to landmark us. And this came really as no surprise. We knew
eventually that we were going to be landmarked. But we just thought that they would give us the
benefit of the doubt and work with us for a little bit longer. Like I said, this was a
major breach of trust. And what was actually really surprising about the hearing, though,
was that one of the commissioners made extraordinarily rude, condescending,
and insulting remarks about The Strand, its arguments, and the over 12,000 people of this city
that have opposed that designation. Well, let's hear those remarks. What were they?
Sure. She said that The Strand... And who is she?
Her name is Adi Ben-Sharon, I think. This is a woman who has a sort of architectural
history background, works at UNESCO and whatnot. But she called The Strand supporters
intellectually dishonest and accused us of engaging in hypocrisy. And that was not
contradicted by the chairwoman, Sarah Carroll, of landmarks. It was just let to stand on the record.
Now, let me ask you, is that something an agency would do or what an agency would tolerate if they
actually have any interest whatsoever in working with The Strand and trying to come up with a
workable solution? And here's something that I think the listeners will be very interested in,
and you too, Emmanuel, is that less than a day before the vote, they dumped on us thousands of
pages of documents in response to that FOIL request. So we had no time to go through it.
And they were going to push forward with this vote. I mean, it all seemed designed
to ram this thing through because perhaps they were hiding something. Well, thankfully,
we have a decent staff. And the day before the vote, we went through lots and lots of these
documents. And some of the things we found in there were actually quite interesting. For instance,
like the fact that Landmarks was doing what would amount to opposition research and was way more
interested in Nancy Bass Wyden's personal life, her finances, her political views than they were
in the architectural integrity of 826 Broadway, the building of The Strand. Moreover, they were
seeking out disgruntled Strand employees to try to get them to testify on their behalf at our last
public hearing. And in addition, there are a whole bunch of documents that are redacted
between the mayor's office, the deputy mayor's office in Landmarks, and then with third parties
that used to work at Landmarks themselves, things that should definitely not be redacted. So there's
a lot of irregularities. This is far from over. We knew we were going to be landmarked. We thought
that we would hopefully be able to work out a plan with them. I don't think there's going to
be a reverse gear here. So we're taking this fight to the grassroots level. This is about
the people now. It's about joining in and helping to protect The Strand. They set up an email
address, protectthestrandatgmail.com, if you want to join in the fight. But this is about working
now from the bottom up. What Nancy had said at our press conference yesterday, which wasn't really
covered a lot by the media, but I think was a really important point, is that change does not
happen in government buildings. Change happens on the streets. That's why we were outside yesterday
at our press conference on the streets of New York, right outside The Strand, major press coverage,
as you noted. So this is going back to the grassroots level. We are considering legal
options as well, given what we have already found in the FOIL request. We have other outstanding
FOIL requests. And in fact, it was incomplete what they sent to us. We're going to still dig
around in that and hopefully come to a conclusion about whether we're going to take legal action
within the next few months. Is there an immediate cost on all of the actions you're looking at,
notwithstanding? Is there an immediate cost, given what determination they came to at this meeting,
in imposing this status? What kind of costs could The Strand and customers of The Strand face
immediately, given that they want to go ahead in defiance of the requests and the petitions that
were made by customers? Well, there's not going to be an immediate cost right now. Anytime something
is going to want to change to the building, if they're going to, well, like, let's say,
put in a handicap ramp. That's actually something that's going on right now, is a changing handicap
ramp. Examples like that that are something that simple. So yeah, there will be. In fact,
we're already having to deal with this bureaucracy, and it's not, and it hasn't been pleasant. Let me
tell you that. It's been contradictory between landmarks and the Department of Buildings. And so
there's a lot of issues there. But the costs are going to be incurred pretty rapidly
when any kind of change is that is going to be done to the building. So for instance,
if The Strand wants to put in a cafe, which they're contemplating doing on the ground floor
level, things can get really expensive really, really quickly. But like I said, this fight is far
from over. We need your support as well. We want you to stay tuned, listen in. And we have some
tricks up our sleeves, some things that may have been borne out of my misspent youth hanging around
with you guys that should be announced over the next few weeks. Okay, no, I would definitely down
for that. And is there a website people can get updates on? I would mostly check the Twitter feed,
which is Strand Books. And I believe it's strandbooks.com as well, where there's constant
updates about this, but the Twitter feed is probably one of the best places to go for constant
updates. Okay. And anybody can reach out to me directly as well. We're blackstone-law.com. Okay,
you need a website. You guys need a website to keep updated because that's how people spread
the news around. Completely agree. Yeah, I feel like that's the next thing is you'll be updating
us with a domain where people can find out more about this movement. Hopefully next time we have
that. Alex, thanks for that. And it was fun seeing you on all the channels yesterday.
We have another major story that broke over the weekend. For those of you who have not heard about
that, I'm just going to read you a little bit from a story from Gizmodo online publication.
That's basically starting by saying TechCrunch has learned another online publication. Okay,
so one online publication is quoting another online publication and saying TechCrunch has
learned that Maker Media, the company behind the DIY magazine and online publication Make,
as well as the Maker Faire science, art, and hacking festivals that happen all around the
world each year, ceased operations last week and let go the rest of its 22 employees.
The company's founder and CEO, Dale Dougherty, confirmed to TechCrunch that since its inception
15 years ago, the business has been a struggle as it has been for, they spoke for wrong. See,
this is the problem. When you have just online publications, the proofreading goes out the
window. Yeah, for countless, more than four. It's been four, I'm confused now. Okay. The
business has been a struggle as it has been for countless print publications over the past few
decades. Yes. Layoffs first hit the company back in 2016, followed by eight more staffers being
laid off in March, which the San Francisco Chronicle reported ahead of the 2019 Maker
Faire. There was some, uh, forebodings of doom there. Uh, the company's flagship event,
which is held in the Bay Area each year. And despite rain though, that event met its ticket
sales, but doubtful it's going to return to the Bay Area after this year. Uh, and then of course,
there were the two Maker, uh, well, actually that was one of the Maker Faires, one of the two
flagship ones. The other one being here in New York, the World Maker Faire. Uh, now according
to Dougherty, other regional Maker Faires simply licensed a name and branding. So those are still,
uh, supposedly going to proceed for at least 2019. But what it, uh, looks like from, from the gist
of this is that Make Magazine is, is finished and Maker Faires are finished. The big ones are
finished. Um, we have on the line with us, the, uh, the, the voice of Maker Faire for so many
years on, on this radio station, whenever, uh, whenever we, um, uh, would participate in the
annual event here in New York. Sherry Huss, uh, the sad times.
Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Hello everyone. And, um, first of all, thank you for your continued
support. I think, um, the 2600 community has always been really special and has been great.
And I think even as Alex mentioned, I think the one thing to remember is that change happens on
the streets and I truly believe it. It's how we built Maker Faire. And I think, uh, even though
it's hard that the big fairs are going to go away and there's some business realities that are
being dealt with, the great news is, is that the seeds have been planted. And even this morning,
I came from a step up ceremony for a kindergarten, kindergartner at her school. And I saw that they
had a maker lab and there was a sign. And it's like, I can't be happier that we've made change
in the first 15 years. And I think it's up to all of us now to figure out where, where we take it.
Well, you know, I think, go ahead. No. And I mean, I think again, Maker Faire has been so
wonderful and I do believe they will continue on a local level. In my mind, when we started
Maker Faire, it was the county fair for me. Like every, every county fair should be a Maker Faire.
And there's part of this, to me, Maker Faires just need to be part of culture and what we
celebrate, just like craft fairs or farmer's markets. The big ones were hard to maintain,
but I actually think that it's an interesting time now. And we have, we have many, many,
many more people around the globe that are involved, even young makers that have been
with us for 15 years that now can actually help come together and figure out where we,
where we take it. Well, you know, I'm thinking of, of all the kids because that, that,
if you've ever been to the World Maker Faire in Queens, you'd be amazed by how many kids show up
and are, are, are completely involved and, and learning all kinds of technical abilities and
sharing their information, their knowledge. But those kids over the years have gone on
to do some amazing things. And I just wonder how many of them work at SpaceX now and so many other
places where they're now designing technology and, and spreading those ideas. The environment
at Maker Faires has always been so healthy. And yes, it's, it's similar to a county fair,
but I think it goes beyond that because you, you you have this spirit of hacking and,
and sharing information and experimenting and being a bit mischievous and just kind of
seeing where the technology takes you. Very, very healthy things for kids. I think I can count on
one hand, the number of unhappy kids I've seen over the years at Maker Faire. So we are interested
here both on Off the Hook and the Hope Conference and the magazine in doing whatever we can to keep
that environment alive. Obviously the small Maker Faires around the world, but the big ones too,
because they were special. And I know a lot of people are asking, you know, we have these,
these massive fairs with I think over a hundred thousand people attending.
How does something like that lose money? Well, you know, and again, this is where I think it
gets complicated. The fairs are one part of the business and one could argue that there were some
fundamental issues with the overall business that actually kind of got funneled into the fair. So I
can't say that the fairs didn't always make money. They maybe didn't make enough money. And if you
read the articles, you know, I had to speak at Sonoma State last week to a group of Maker,
Cal State University Maker professionals that are trying to figure out what to do with this.
And I broke it down into like five-year segments. You know, the first five years we started this
Make Magazine launched in 2005 and I came on board in 2006. I mean, I met Dale back in the
early days. My background was starting with developer conferences. So Java One was the
first event I ever did in 1996. And from then during that period, like 96 to 2002,
worked with Sun, Microsoft, Oracle, Intel. At that time I met Dale Doherty and Dale's
a wonderful visionary. You know, I have to say that that's really the great thing about Dale
is that he, you know, he kind of dreams big and he goes out there. And at that time he had come
up with the idea of Web 2.0 and O'Reilly Media wasn't really on board with, with actually the
Web 2.0, which is interesting. But I talked my boss into the time to say, let's do a joint
venture because I think this next generation of the web has some legs. And I really believe,
and I was looking at it more from a developer perspective, but even from a business and
entrepreneurial perspective, that was where we're going. So, so with, so that's how I met Dale.
The first five years we spent building this event and we really created it as a festival to
celebrate makers. I worked for the company that put on Comdex and so I knew the realities of
trade shows and I knew everything I wanted to stay away from. I didn't want to be in convention
centers. I didn't like pipe and drape. I wanted it to be family oriented. That really kind of
created the whole fair atmosphere. So that first five years we actually went around and once we
decided to get this festival going, we went around and, you know, found groups of people.
We launched in the Bay Area, 2008, 2006, had about 22 to 30,000 attendees that first weekend,
which was like, okay, we have something here. We took it to Austin in 2000, 2007 and eight,
which we actually always, always could get attendees. The sponsorship was a little bit
hard because, you know, it's not a, it's not a standard event and companies don't know what to
do. But then we got hit with the recession in 2009. At that time we pulled back and said,
okay, what are we going to do? We, we had a lot of people coming at us saying we want to make our
fair. And so we decided, and again, this is the brilliance of being part of O'Reilly where
being open source, we said, okay, let's create a playbook. And we had the Kauffman Foundation
gave us a grant for $25,000 to start that. We also launched two events, one in Detroit.
Dale had talked at a TED auto events in Detroit and realized there's a whole host of people in
kind of that rust belt that actually were either kids or family members of engineers.
They could really use a Maker Faire. So we partnered with the Henry Ford and then we
partnered with the New York Hall of Science, which I have to say was brilliant because they're,
not only do they have a wonderful property, but they definitely shared our mission
of making makers and hands-on and creativity and getting kids to go.
Yeah. Such a perfect place for that. Such a perfect place.
Yep. Yep. So the first five years we spent building, we had to readjust quickly in 2009.
And then the next pivot point was 2014 when we did a White House Maker Faire.
And we were so lucky because we had the Obama administration, Tom Kalil and Kumar and their
team. They were part of the Office of Science and Technology Programs. Three of their initiatives
matched directly with us. So workforce development, that's retraining and STEM education.
So we were able, and even at the time, because again, even the great thing of like pulling
back from Maker Faire a little bit is you get a perspective to look up instead of always looking
down. At the time, not even realizing how important that was, especially for a global move,
because once we had a White House Maker Faire, the European Commission was quite interested.
Oh, China was interested. Everyone was paying attention. And as well as companies and
corporations, which through the help of the Office of Science and Technology Programs pulled in a lot
of folks, including the Department of Energy, which I think it was around 2015 or 2016, which
was the height, I'd say, of Maker Faire attendance and sponsorship. And things were just kind of like
working really well, right? I mean, to have the Department of Energy be there and showcase what
they were doing was pretty darn amazing. Absolutely.
Even for kids to see, to talk to scientists and engineers, there were even government science and
engineers, like, how do you get to do that? And that's kind of the brilliance of Maker Faire.
And anyway, the next, you know, the last five years, we pulled out of O'Reilly in 2012. We took
private, not private, we took VC money, which was probably a kiss of death, right?
I mean, there was no way what we were doing that we would ever be, you know,
delivering returns out of Silicon Valley.
Well, Sarah, I think you touched upon it right there. As soon as you inject venture
capitalists into it, there is a sort of a poison that spreads. Because if you look at Maker Faire,
if you look at what you guys have been doing, how can anybody in their right mind consider that to
be anything but an unmitigated success? You had all these people showing up, having a great time
learning so much, coming year after year. How does anybody, and of course, a venture capitalist would
say, well, it's not making enough money, but they don't quite see the vision that you guys saw.
No, absolutely. I mean, they were interested in scaling and, you know, how could we return?
How could we, how could Maker Faire, you know, make more money? And I have to say, I don't think
Maker Faire made money. It didn't make as much money as we should have for the amount of work
that we did. And every one of those dollars went back right into the event or to the team or what
we were doing. We were truly a mission-based organization. And I believe that's what Dale's
trying to figure out now. Like, how do you pull this back and how do you not lose the momentum,
but, you know, you couldn't operate under that business construct that was, you know,
unfortunately entered into.
Yeah. And you start grafting the expectations of that particular business mindset onto what,
you know, works for your event instead of making, you know, doing what works for your event and
trying to make a business plan fit that. And that, I think, a lot of people can relate with who do
run events. We're all too familiar with sponsors not knowing what to do with you. And, you know,
we don't typically take sponsorships. And we started to in the past for specific things,
but not the entire event. But thinking that way, it takes a certain mindset. And I could see
all of the success making venture capital and influx of investment further the mission,
maybe in a short term sense, but have other consequences for what you're actually planning
long term. Absolutely. And I will say,
again, I worked for the Comdex guys. Those guys were making a dollar per square foot,
you know, and in 2000, you know, they sold a million or they were 60 dollars a square foot.
They sold a million square feet, all cash. We weren't a money play. We were using events.
And again, events have so many purposes and events are also they can be incredibly hard,
right, to get everything right. And Maker Faire was never designed to be like,
OK, here's your 10 by 10 space. Move on. Exactly. I had a team that actually cared
about the makers that would say, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your project. Tell us
about what you need on site. And we spent the time because we also felt that the makers were
there giving of themselves over the weekend. And so we wanted to make sure and this was part of
the beginning. You know, we were pulling groups and people out of their own world. So the robot
team, the robot group always talked to the robot group. You know, the Lego group always talked to
Lego group. What was so special about what we did is we pulled them out of their their environments
and said, we're going to give you a venue and you can showcase what you do because we believe
it's special. And every one of those groups had a story. And I will say, so proud of my team
because everyone actually had that orientation instead of, OK, 10 by 10 next, next, next.
And I think that that was what was truly special about Maker Faire.
I totally agree. And that really held true for most of the people that I ever saw at the fair
when I would come and, you know, work with our booth and we'd all take turns manning the booth
so that the rest of us could go around and enjoy the rest of the fair. It's stuff we were interested
in. And when we would talk to people at the other booths and have full on conversations about what
we were doing, what they were doing, and everyone was interested in everything else. This was an
event where so many people were there as a labor of love and just for what was going on and not
just there to present their wares. Yeah, yeah. To speak to that, one of our one of our initial
reactions and something that I thought of was that we need to kind of or should be a part of
the conversation is how do we define success? Like what is a successful Maker Faire from perhaps a
VC bottom line perspective? You might come to a much different conclusion than had you attended
and as he pointed out, seen the reaction to families and people who don't often get to share
what they really are into and also people that learn about new things and get exposed to it or
see the intersections, as you mentioned, with like NASA being there or large companies that sort of
validate and show, hey, this relates to the power company or this relates to another area or sector
that wouldn't ordinarily be thought of to as an inspiring career. You know, sure. I want to make
sure this is absolutely clear. But you guys have changed lives in such an incredible way of kids
everywhere. You have steered them onto a path they never would have gone down, at least not in the
same way, not with the enthusiasm that they got from Maker Faires. So that's why I think we really
have to work hard as members of the hacker community, as people who are creative and technical
ourselves, to save this for the future kids that come along. Because I want to see that magic. I
want to see that continue. No, I agree. About three or four weeks ago, I got contacted by...
I grew up in a town in northeastern Ohio. I went to Elyria High School, graduated class of 1976.
I get a call from the superintendent of school system to say, hey, we just found out that you,
you know, you co-founded Maker Faire. We would love to have you come and talk to our students.
Would you do it? I said, absolutely. I got there and I had to say, they were so great to show me
middle schools. They've cleared out the libraries now. So the libraries now host like three Maker
classes starting at grade eight. The high school, same thing. They cleared out the library, which
was a brand new high school. The new part of the library was built in 2011. They cleared out the
library, which I can only imagine the fights that were going on with the librarians to do this.
But the level of engagement, and this is in a pretty depressed, depressed economic area in,
you know, northeastern Ohio, that for three years, three years, they've actually had making in their
curriculum. And I could see it and feel it walking into that high school that I hadn't been in,
and you know, like over 40 years. Like, wow, this is changing. So I do think that there are
there are really good things that are happening out there. And I like encourage the teachers at
Cal State, like, this is a time for all of us to mobilize and we can affect change.
What I've learned from Maker Faire, I mean, it's been the most rewarding job. It's been the hardest
job, but a lot of it is finding the people that are doing things and then just saying,
you can do this, go do it. Absolutely. Don't ask permission, right? And I think in your school.
I think we might have we might have one of the one of the biggest challenges of things we have
to do now to save this thing, to to have things like this in the future and to keep this spirit
going that, you know, this is a good community to have that challenge, because I think I think
they can definitely meet that. Now, Alex, you have a kid who is very enthusiastic about Maker
Faire. And I understand there have been some temper tantrums like you would not believe,
just as has been going on around the country. I would imagine. Are you still locked out of
your houses? What's going on? You would think, right? I mean, and let me tell you, I mean,
it was really incredible. Last year was the first year that I brought my five year old son to Maker
Faire. And he was just amazed at the breadth of it. It was absolutely incredible to him.
And we spent the entire day walking around. He was so fascinated by all of the robotics.
And now this summer, he's going to a robotics camp. He's six years old. And because of the
Maker Faire last year, he got so into robotics. He's going to a robotics camp this year.
At five years old?
Six years old now.
Six. Okay.
Yep. Yep. And, you know, it shows you how interesting everything else was, because we
were hanging out with Emmanuel and Kyle at the 2600 van. And compared to everything else,
he was incredibly bored hanging out with you guys, I have to say. You know, everything else
was so much more. You're usually the weirdest guys in the group. But, you know, in Maker Faire,
you were, you know, bottom of the barrel to him. So he found the whole thing just incredible. The
big hand that was crushing the cars. And when he saw the R2-D2 replicas, and the BB-8 replicas,
he freaked out. Because, you know, he's such a huge Star Wars fan. When we left that day,
you know, it was in the evening, you could tell he was tuckering out. We're walking back to the
subway. And he looked up at me, and I will never forget this. He said to me, Daddy, this was the
best day ever.
I got to meet R2-D2. He's a real hero. You know, he said he's a real hero. And now weeks ago,
before any of this news came out, this sad, disappointing news, he started asking about
Maker Faire. Daddy, when's Maker Faire? When's Maker Faire? When are we going? And I haven't
had the heart to tell him yet, actually. He could be listening right now, Alex. For God's sake,
he knows how to use a radio. This is true. And in fact, weirdly enough, this morning,
I was going through my bag and taking some old things out. And we had some Maker Faire
tattoos, you know, like the removable tattoos that were given out. And he wanted to put one
on his hand this morning. Looks a little thuggish. But so we did it. We put it on his hand. And,
you know, I have to say, it got me a little bit welled up thinking about the fact that
it might be worth it. Multiply that by a few hundred thousand kids. And that's the experience.
And they remember this for the rest of their lives. But the important thing is,
it happened. He experienced it. He'll never forget it. And it's already, I feel like,
changed the trajectory of his life. Wow. Yeah, I agree. And here's what I'm going to say, too.
I think that, again, there needs to be a little time to figure out, and I know Dale's trying to
figure some of it out. The licensed fairs are still going to go on, again, whether they're
Maker Faire. I mean, hopefully they'll be called Maker Faire. But here's, you know, St. Louis.
There's Detroit. Orlando. That includes the international ones as well. I just want to
clarify. Yep. Rome and Shenzhen. They've all stated. So then you're planning on moving.
Right now, the only ones affected really are San Mateo and Queens. Is that right?
That's correct. Those were the ones that were under the Maker Media Preview.
Great. Yeah, because we're also announcing the Tokyo one, which would be part of that. So that
is... I've heard more support regionally because of this. So I think that the regional fairs are
going to continue in some way, shape, or form. You know, they'll have to figure out the legal,
all the legal stuff. But there is going to be a Maker Festival, and they're starting to pop up
out there. Like I said, I want to see them everywhere. And I know, I mean, the big fairs
do have those special moments with, you know, the fire-breathing dragons and the bigger-than-life
things that actually kind of make you really, you know, if you didn't get how cool it was,
it sort of reinforces it. That they're just things that, you know, even for young kids,
just opening up their mind, which was, it didn't matter what they were interested in,
but just knowing that there are other things out there than what's in front of you every day.
And that's the important thing. And then also talking to makers, right?
Yes.
Like, how often in life do you get to talk to people anymore? You know, not that much.
So those are the things that are important. Those aren't going to go away. And, you know,
I have hope that, again, it's been too significant. And again, I will say it is
a movement from the people. This is happening on the streets. All the regional fairs, even
Rome, Shenzhen, those are all local people that have made it happen.
And again, hopefully this is just a blip and we'll get through it. But I think it's just kind
of raising, I guess what I could say to all your audience, but I know that you practice it every
day anyway. It's just kind of raising the whole awareness around making. And there are little
things that you can do. When I was in Illyria, I noticed that they gave the graduating seniors
varsity letters. Those were the seniors that were on the robotics team and then the maker
and fab lab group. And I went up to them afterwards and said, how did you get the varsity
letter? Like varsity letters are for athletics. And, you know, and they said, actually they went,
they pushed not too many places have done this yet, but these are little signs. They went and
they said, this is, so these are the rules, what you need for a varsity letter. We, because it's
not really a sport or competition, we put in a few things and they pushed to make it happen.
Now, how cool is it that kids that are in the robotics and maker world in high school
can get a varsity letter? That's awesome. Pretty cool. That is really amazing. Those
are the things that, again, I think all of us can actually change the world that we're in.
And then also be sure to share it. Right. And there are enough, I mean, I think 2,600,
you guys are a great medium. There are folks that have been on the maker world, you know,
Gareth Branlin, Mark Frauenfelder, a lot of the editors that can actually have vehicles to get
things out. I think we just have to keep continuing to share and then also supporting education.
So if I'm going to tell you right now, I think the hardest thing that I'm seeing is that
teachers in school really want to build making into their curriculum and they don't always know
how. So I think if there are ways that we can actually help those teachers and, you know,
start working locally, that things are going to trickle up globally.
Absolutely. And I think one of the most important things, if not the most important
thing Maker Faire has accomplished in the 15 years it did exist, was that it created the form
factor for something that had not happened before, but that can be duplicated as the licensed fairs
have proved. So whether it's called Maker Faire or whether it ends up sort of mutating into
something else, I think we can all be confident that this community, the hacker community,
the maker community, everyone who sees value in this can make something like this happen again
in the city and San Mateo and anywhere else that they want, because this is a thing that has been
proven can happen and is of value. And you've now got 15 years of people who have experienced
that value and who maybe want to put something toward making it happen again.
I also want to say a couple of words concerning the founder and CEO, Dale Dougherty.
I totally get where he's coming from too. I know there's a lot of people that online want to say,
oh this is what you did wrong, this is how it should be. No, it's a tough job. I feel every
bit of his heartache as far as keeping print media going, keeping events going. It is difficult. I know
exactly where he's coming from and I think that he gets it as far as wanting this to continue in
some way, but it has to be reorganized. And I just hope that he sticks to that and he gets the support
that he deserves in order to make this happen. Sherry, correct me if I'm wrong, I think he wants
this to continue, right? Oh, for sure. Dale's invested a lot and a lot more than dollars,
but in years and time that you just don't get back either. I think that just like all of us,
that he, this isn't, you know, this is just sort of, you know, it's unfortunately comes down to
business right now, but the great thing is is that there's so much more than business.
Yes. Right? Where the business analogy falls short is that there is so much more here. And again,
I think, you know, it was a hard day for sure. But I do agree. I know that Dale wants the best
for makers and making. And I also see things kind of bifurcating as well. Like groups are also
starting, you know, they've kind of got the mojo, the maker mojo. And like I work with the Future
Food Institute out of Bologna, Italy, and I'm seeing like global networks that are happening
because of Maker Faire, that are helping them take their mission, which is focusing on
food and, you know, positive action, you know, through education and innovation, which is really
kind of what we were trying to do with making. I'm working in San Francisco with the folks from
the Museum of Future Sports. So I'm starting to see some groups that are also kind of finding their,
you know, their special interest area and audience. And those things are also very positive too.
You know, and Sherry, you know, I have some hope, you know, that this will work itself out
at some point as well. Also, because and perhaps you can speak to this. This isn't actually a
bankruptcy. I dug into the legality of what's going on below the scenes here. This is what's
known as an assignment for the benefit of creditors. So it's hopefully going to be a
process that's a lot faster and smoother than bankruptcy. Bankruptcy requires a judge to
approve whatever the bankruptcy plan is, you know, in order to pay off creditors and things. This,
however, it's all based off state law. Bankruptcy is federal law. This should be faster. It should
be cheaper. There's no courts involved. There's no judge's approval involved. And it's all done
by a contract. And my understanding here is that essentially there'll be a contract that will be,
that will sort out all of the details of the bankruptcy. The title of Maker Faire's assets
and control of those assets will then be put into a trust. And then those assets will be sold to pay
off the creditors. But at the point of that sale, and here's my hope and tell me if I'm being
unrealistic here, but the sale of those assets could go to third parties that want to keep this
going. And then the money from that sale could be used to pay off the creditors and another third
party, perhaps Dale Dougherty himself, maybe, would be willing to repurchase some of these
assets and keep bits of Maker Faire going. That's my understanding. Yeah, it is. I mean,
that sounds very optimistic. And I hope something like that happens. I was thinking, you know,
having, you know, just say for a World Maker Faire or San Mateo, having it spun into some kind
of a nonprofit that sole purpose is to run that event and get sponsorships and just make it
self-sustaining. And I think, you know, seeing the success of that, I think it's possible.
Right. I agree. I agree. I think that that's the hope too. So I do think again, it's,
I think probably the most important thing was getting out from under a bad business framework
that was not going in the right direction. So that's been planted. There's a lot of support
from the community. That's a very positive. And I think right now Dale has to kind of work through
a couple of these processes. I think him knowing that he has the support of the community to help
get through this, I think that'll make a world of difference. I agree. I think he does. I agree.
Yeah. And again, you know, I think there's, we should be somewhat optimistic here and be
very supportive of Dale and the Maker Faire community, because like I said, you know,
at the point of the sale, right, it can really go to parties that are willing to keep this going.
And if it goes back to the people that originally created Maker Faire, what this looks like and
what Sherry alluded to is they had a bad business structure beforehand. Maybe this is a year
hiatus, maybe it's a two year hiatus, but it could essentially be a do over with a better
business structure. And it's up to us to keep supporting the organization because it's obviously
so important to our community and to so many kids and adults alike all around the world. So
we really applaud you and we're going to hope against hope here. I agree.
Well, I agree. And I will also say, also, I'd say if you can support the New York Hall of Science
too. I mean, I think they're trying to figure out, this is a big hole in their schedule for
programming for the fall. But they do have a Makerspace there and they're doing Maker
programs and education. I think they're going to need a little time to figure it out. But again,
they're another partner that really helped kind of coalesce and pull together that whole New York
community. And, you know, there are so many people that have touched Maker Faire and there's so much
love that's gone into it from the makers, to the vendors, to the partners, to the Maker Media
staff and crew that, you know, it's too big and there's too much support and love for it to go
away. I'm hoping it's going to emerge something stronger and kind of getting us set up for the
next five, 10, 15 years. Well, that's great to hear the Hall of Science has that attitude as
well, because they're not just somebody renting out the space and not being sympathetic. So it's
with all that together. Yeah, we have a really good team. It sounds like.
And I'm going to say there is no way we could have done Maker Faire in New York,
given the prices with venues and that, unless we had a partner like the Hall of Science.
So they were very much every step of the way there. And even when I would say things like,
hey, can you remove that panel offense? They kind of looked at me, but they were there every time
and they were right there with the Maker spirit. So they do get a big shout out as well.
It was just great to go back to the scene of the World's Fair that I attended as a child.
Most amazing thing.
And talking of the Hall of Science, among the emotional outpouring that we've seen on social
media in response to these posts, our listener, Coney Love, said to us on Twitter, I think we
all know that no matter what, we are all going to be at the New York Hall of Science on September
21st, Maker Faire or no Maker Faire to raise a toast. Well, hopefully we don't get escorted
off the property, but that sounds like fun. If you guys are going to be there, I'm sure we can
work with Dan and the team there, because I know that, like I said, they've been a partner 100%
of the way. I'll be there. If people are going to show up, I'll show up for sure.
And have like a mini pop-up New York, a mini pop-up World Maker Faire.
We'll bring the van too. We'll bring the phone booth. We'll bring the whole thing.
I mean, yeah, just the phone booth and our exhibit alone was all inspired by having
seen other people and what their energy is, what they're bringing for their own exhibits. So
to not have that, it's just for us a big change, but we're still inspired by it.
And Sherry, it's in Corona. We love Corona. It's such a great neighborhood and it meshes
really well with this whole event. We'll find a way.
I agree. I agree.
The only downside I see to this pop-up though, is that if it's just you there,
Emmanuel, my son is going to be very disappointed.
No, it's not going to be just me. All right. Tell him there'll be more
interesting people than just me.
How jaded is your kid?
He's pretty jaded. He hangs right around Alex.
Oh my God.
Sherry, you want to stick around for some phone calls?
Sure. Absolutely.
Okay. Our phone number is 212-209-2877. We're speaking with Sherry Huss, who is
the coordinator of World Maker Faire. Do you also coordinate San Mateo?
I've been the co-founder of Maker Faire, so I've been there from the beginning.
Pretty much all of them. And what an amazing accomplishment that is. If you have any
questions or comments or observations, if you've ever attended a Maker Faire, give us a call,
212-209-2877. And also, if you have anything to say about The Strand, we're talking about
both big topics tonight. 212-209-2877 is our phone number. It's hard to imagine that big
hole in our autumn schedule of Maker Faire. And I just hope that it's a one-time thing that
maybe by 2020, things will go back to normal.
And callers, if you have some ideas, please, I'm sure Sherry and the rest of us would enjoy your
contributions.
Yeah. If you're a billionaire that can solve all the problems with one phone call,
that would be good too.
Well, that's another issue too, is I thought, and I think it's probably a bit more complicated
than this, Sherry, that why hasn't some high net worth individual stepped in and replaced the void
that was left with Maker Faire from the lack of corporate sponsorship or the lack of enthusiasm
from the corporate side? Do you think that that's a possibility?
Well, I actually think the dollars that make needs, especially, again, in the grand scheme
of the money world, it's not huge. So even, and make a take and run with small dollars,
I mean, I think anything is possible. It just, it hasn't happened because, you know,
once money is involved, there gets to be a whole host of things, but.
Yeah. If you have to sacrifice.
Yeah.
The direction.
A nonprofit structure might actually help as well.
Well, that's true. Then it would be a tax deductible donation to save the Maker Faire.
Exactly.
But also you wouldn't have to worry about the venture capitalists. You could just
worry about the event itself.
And making that as good as it could possibly be. Because I can't imagine the pressure of
just having that hanging over your head constantly, pleasing these people that really don't get it.
Let's see if this caller gets it. We have a phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook. Go
ahead.
Hey, so it's Delcini and I have a couple of comments to the Maker Faire and the Strand.
Go ahead.
Stories today. So Maker Faire, I'm going to go all Euro socialist on you because in Europe,
those kinds of programs are tax funded to a large portion. And I think as a community,
we need to start asking for funding for those kinds of problems because there's more at stake
here than just a really great event, but also our position in tech in the United States and how we
educate our younger generations. And as for the Strand, I tweeted at you a link that is by the
Greenwich Village Society for Historic Preservation. People can very easily follow that link
and send a letter straight from there. In that neighborhood, Carlina Rivera,
she's the city council member and it's the second time she struck out in a major way.
And she needs to be sent a message as well that this just can't keep going on. She's been
handing the neighborhood to developers like there's no tomorrow.
Yeah, yeah, no doubt. And in fact, Carlina Rivera, as you correctly point out, she's the
councilwoman who's in charge of that particular district. She spoke in favor of designating the
Strand as a landmark. And it's pretty clear, too, that designating the Strand as a landmark
was the product of a deal between de Blasio and Carlina Rivera and as the result of the
rezoning because of the new nonsensical Silicon Alley that's happening, this new tech hub that's
happening in Manhattan south of 14th Street. Separately, though, I think reaching out to
the Greenwich Village Society is also important, too, because they are not happy with this
designation either. This is a building that was certainly not under threat. It's not going to be
raised. Compare that to the St. Dennis Hotel just down the street where Alexander Graham Bell
in room 208 displayed the speaking telephone to New Yorkers for the first time. That hotel was
not landmarked. It's been raised. And so there's a lot of disparity here. It's really unfair.
It's unfair to wait anymore. Yeah, no, I know. Exactly. This has been an unfair,
ill-conceived process from the outset. And thank you for pointing out.
We have another phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook.
Good evening. Every week I listen to the mayor when he's on with Brian Lehrer on WNYC.
Now, I'm thinking if someone were to call in, it could be me, but I'm just putting it out there
because he does seem to follow up with people. I'm talking about the Strand.
OK, maybe he could help. He's got his own situations with real estate. I understand
that. So I don't know how open he'd be to it. But but he seems to be working, helping people
quite a bit. I listen to it all the time. So that was all I had to say. And thank you.
Thanks. Thanks for your call. Go ahead, Alex. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that entirely.
We're hoping that perhaps there is some chance that the mayor could act on this. Statutorily,
the city council now has 120 days within which they can either rescind or modify the particular
designation. It's unlikely they're going to do anything. The mayor could step in after that.
Thank you. All right. Let's take one more phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook.
Hey, good evening, guys. You know what? I I'm thinking about it because I work at the
Clearwater Festival. Why don't you bring the whole Maker Faire show to the Clearwater Festival?
There's plenty of kids there that would be loving that, I'll tell you.
Uh-huh. What do you think, Sherry? It's just weekend, you know.
Oh, it's just weekend? Yeah, it's just Saturday and Sunday, you know.
That's a short notice. But I don't know.
I mean, you know what? If I knew this sooner, I would have called you sooner.
This is the first I've heard it because I've always wanted to go to the Maker Faire, you know.
Well, hopefully you will be able to at some point. But, Sherry, any thoughts on this?
You know, I think those are interesting ideas. It's probably not going to happen for this
weekend. But, you know, you never know. Maybe put a call out and actually set up some tables
for Makers and, you know, start encouraging making at the Clearwater Festival.
Well, you know, a few of us went to the Mini Maker Faire at Port Jefferson last weekend,
and that was really cool and much smaller, but the same enthusiasm was there.
These things can pop up in pretty much any place you imagine.
People were coming from a long way, too. We had bumped into people that were from Brooklyn,
I think. Probably further than that.
Yeah, it was amazing to see people come from a great... the draw that these events have.
Completely.
And the enthusiasm is exactly the same.
Let's take...
Absolutely. Just because they're smaller doesn't make them any less better. In fact,
you have more meaningful conversations and engagements with Makers.
That is true. Although there is something really special about that Queens event. I hope
we see that again. Let's take one more phone call. Good evening. You're on off the hook.
Hey, you know, why don't you bring your van to the Clearwater Festival?
Okay. You know what? We'll see what we can schedule. Thanks for your enthusiasm.
Clearwater. Okay. Yeah. Let's drive up there. Let's get started.
Ani DeFranco is going to teach soldering, and Immortal Technique is going to
have some races or something.
Sherry, any final words from you? Things people can do? Websites? Anything like that?
You know, I would say, I think, again, this is all pretty fresh and new. I think
that, you know, we'll kind of keep sharing information as it comes out. But again, I think
just keep, you know, keep on making and keep doing what you do. And wherever you can raise
awareness, that's great. And let's see if we can get this back on track.
Yeah. And the kids bawling their eyes out all across the New York metro area.
We're working on this. We're going to make it better. We're going to make it happen.
This magic will come back, but you're going to help us. We need that enthusiasm. We need
your ingenuity. And it's, you know, I feel much more heartened having talked to you this past
hour, Sherry, about the future, knowing these events are happening around the world. We just
have to bring it back here and back to San Mateo and hopefully rebuild other things as well.
Because this community doesn't know the meaning of the word defeat, you know?
That's true.
Idealistic. And some might say naive, but that's our beauty.
And also, while we got a minute left, Sherry, I just want to say on behalf of
us here at 2600 Maker at WBAI and everyone, you've been such a great friend to the station,
you and Make and everyone supporting what we do and with things like tickets and whatnot for our
fundraisers. And, you know, we've appreciated everything you've done and we look forward to
what happens next.
And you mentioned Make. I should also point out, because we mentioned it briefly at the
beginning, that Make is shutting down as well. I hope Make Magazine can be saved. In addition,
they have 125,000 subscribers. And again, how is that not a success? You can make that work
and we're here to help in any way possible, because the death of any printed magazine is,
you know, a death for all of us, as somebody involved in printed magazines can say.
But I think we really need to work together. Well, Sherry, thank you again so much.
Thank you guys for your support, too. It's meant a lot and we'll keep going, keep doing what we do.
All right. And we will see you again at some point. And hopefully we'll see all those people
that would come to the Maker Faire at some other event in the future. And we'll keep you updated
on this and we'll keep you updated on this strand as well. You can write to us, othat2600.com.
We are not on next week. We'll see you again in two weeks. Have a good night.
Hi, I'm Laura Flanders of The Laura Flanders Show. The Left Forum is right around the corner
and they have generously donated weekend passes to WBAI listener supporters who make a $50 pledge
in support of WBAI. I've had the pleasure.