From 530 till 9. For ticket information, please go to www.citizensinc.org or call 347-626-7233.
Extension 3. Again, for ticket information, please go to www.citizensinc.org or call 347-626-7233.
And don't forget Extension 3. I'm David Rothenberg and I hope to see you there.
And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York. The time is 8 o'clock. Time once again for Off The Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would. Bundledly bound for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. Bundledly bound.
And a very good evening to everybody. The program is Off The Hook. Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this wonderful program.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T. Firefly. Hang on a second. Why isn't your microphone working? Try that again.
Good evening.
Ah, there you are. Kyle?
Hi.
Alex.
Great to be back.
And Voltaire.
Hello.
Oh, we've got a crowded room today. I guess doom and gloom brings out crowds of people because we have a little bit of doom.
Yeah, I guess we could sort of say that. Our goal for the Just Started fundraiser has been increased a little bit. As of today, we have to come up with $1.8 million.
They want it right away. I've never actually looked at a building before and seen an enemy. But when you look at the Empire State Building, wow. It's like a big middle finger they're giving us.
And they want their money right now. And it's debatable as to whether or not it's their money. We can get into the whole thing. But I think probably the best way to bring everybody up to speed is to play the news piece that we've produced here at WBAI to basically explain just what in God's name is going on here.
This is an amazing story. Amazing in a bad way. Let's listen to this. The number to call, if you want to just start pledging immediately, is 516-620-3602.
You can also text to the number 41444 and simply send the letters WBAI. Those are our call letters. Send that to 41444. And then you'll have all kinds of options on how much you want to pledge and how often and things like that.
You can also go to the website givetowbai.org. That's givetowbai.org. And there are all kinds of options there as well. And we'll get into more specifics right after this.
Therefore, this court brings a summary judgment to the amount of $1,819,687.52.
$1.8 million. That's the amount WBAI and the Pacifica Foundation need to raise immediately. That's because Judge Gerald Lebovitz decided against WBAI and the Pacifica Foundation in its dispute with Empire State Realty Trust.
This over rent being charged to house our transmitter in the Empire State Building. Attorney for WBAI and the Pacifica Foundation, Sam Himmelstein.
So they got a judgment for more than $1.8 million, which is not even everything that WBAI Pacifica owes. They owe more than that. That's only through the date they made their motion.
So they have a judgment, which is a piece of paper that allows them to now seize assets of Pacifica. They can place liens on its real estate. They can seize its bank accounts unless we work something out with them.
I made a new settlement offer to them just before the argument, which I'm not at liberty to say what the substance of it was. And they're going to consider it.
But this was about as bad a result as we could have expected. The judge had written his decision before we even went in there.
The judge read from his prepared decision directly after arguments were made by Himmelstein and the Empire State Realty Trust lawyer.
WBAI and Pacifica argued that a waiver was in place because in 2014 until now, the Empire State Building's parent company accepted $12,000 a month for transmitter rent instead of the $45,000 to $53,000 a month they were charging.
The judge ruled against this defense, saying the waiver wasn't in writing and it wasn't signed.
Outside the courtroom, standing among WBAI supporters, Himmelstein says the law wasn't on the side of WBAI and the Pacifica Foundation in this case.
There's a clause in the lease, there's actually several clauses in the lease, but there's a clause in the lease that says that waivers have to be in writing.
And there's a clause in the lease that says that when they accept less than the full amount, it's not a waiver of their right to collect the rest.
And that language is in just about every lease in the United States.
Leases are made by and for landlords.
They give tenants the right to occupy a space for a certain number of years, but the rest of the contract is generally designed to make sure that the landlord can enforce its rights.
And that's what happened here.
We tried to come up with whatever arguments we had, latches, waiver, unconscionability, but the judge had already made up his mind clearly before we walked in there.
Yeah, it was all written out.
It was. I don't even know why he had us argue it.
WBAI Pacifica also argued unconscionability.
That in the lease, the Empire State Building charges the station four times the market rent with an escalating contract involving increases of about 9% per year.
And that it took advantage of being the only site in town to house an antenna after 9-11 when the Twin Towers were attacked.
The judge read the legal definition of unconscionability and ruled against the station and the network.
Himmelstein.
If you heard the judge, unconscionability is rarely found in commercial leases, right?
Because the presumption in a commercial lease is that you have two business entities that both have counsel and that the court's not going to find unconscionability.
And unconscionability also has to, according to the judge, and there is some case law that supports this, has to exist at the time the contract is made, not by subsequent events.
And it usually involves some inequality in the bargaining power, a take-it-or-leave-it situation.
So the judge, in his decision, recited all the elements legally of unconscionability and said we hadn't met that.
And needless to say, if I thought, if I could have said more, I would have.
But unconscionability is not what you and I think of as unconscionable, you know.
Like, we think of unconscionability, oh, that's horrible, that's not fair.
It's not just that.
So that's what the judge found.
What is happening now is not unexpected.
We had a horrible contract signed by the Pacific National Office like a couple of years ago.
Berthold Reimers is WBAI's general manager.
And so we were basically going for, you know, hopes.
And we had a very good lawyer who gave us tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of services.
And also, you know, he's not exactly one of those, you know, those lawyers with millions of dollars and resources to fight them to fortune.
And so this was another aspect that we could have taken.
But we chose to go the semi-amicably way to see if the Empire State Building would be reasonable.
And if the judge would see this as, WBAI, as an asset.
This is a public air.
You know, it should actually be free.
And this is our air.
This is the air of the public.
You know, none of these towers should be, no radio station should be charged for this.
You know, and I mean, we are paying for renting the top of the Empire State Building.
But most of the money we owe is for the right to have access to the air, which is actually kind of nonsense to me.
You know, like, you know, we should call our politicians and, you know, locally and nationally.
This is like a travesty.
You know, this air should be free.
It should always be free.
The $1.8 million payment is due immediately.
There's no payment plan.
And the only way to get a stay is if the station and the network post the $1.8 million.
According to Pacifica and WBAI's attorney, political pressure is the station's only recourse.
That and a large sum of money from a donor or from donors.
An account has been set up expressly for these donations.
Please contact ed at pacifica.org.
That's the Pacifica Foundation's executive director, Bill Crozier, ed at pacifica.org.
If you can make a large donation.
And as Himmelstein suggests, reaching out to your local elected officials on behalf of WBAI will help with this crisis.
Which is why I've been, and I think you all agree, urging that this case has to be litigated, if you will,
in the political arena as well as the legal, because the law on contracts and leases favors landlords.
And they had the law on their side, at least that's what the judge believed.
So I think what people have to do now is keep the pressure on them, especially because I did just make them a settlement offer.
Keep the pressure on them to negotiate.
After the court hearing, one listener mournfully asked, this doesn't mean the end of WBAI, does it?
It's a setback, but no, it doesn't mean the end of WBAI.
Linda Perry, WBAI News, New York.
Yeah, I should rename this network the Phoenix Network, because we're always rising from the ashes.
But this is a tough one.
This is a tough challenge to meet.
$1.8 million judgment against us based on a really, really raw deal from the Empire State Building.
And you heard the facts there as far as how it came to be.
Alex, I just wanted to ask you, you're a resident lawyer here in the room at the moment.
What do you make of this kind of a case?
What are the realities?
It's not good.
It's fairly dire.
It's not entirely over.
But I think it's important to understand the posture of the case here.
A lot of people are probably wondering, how did this happen?
What's going on here?
I thought there would be a trial.
I thought there would be something that was a little bit more drawn out, not just the judge reading a pre-canned decision before the lawyers even had their remarks.
Yeah, let's address that for a second.
He had the decision already typed up before.
What's the point of even showing up to court then?
Well, if something extraordinary happens, he may be able to change his mind.
Unfortunately, that is par for the course, especially in state court.
That also is an indication that he felt very strongly about the position of the parties based on their papers and that oral argument likely would not sway them.
I mean, I'll tell you, when I was a federal law clerk, we would sometimes write opinions prior to oral argument.
But you would obviously never issue them until you had the proper process and the parties were allowed to argue.
But sometimes you just know how a case is going to go.
Sometimes the law and the facts are so lopsided that you necessarily understand that you can write a decision beforehand.
So it's not entirely uncommon, but it doesn't bode extremely well for WBAI here either.
What we're talking about, though, is summary judgment.
And summary judgment is a dispositive motion, meaning that it's something that can make or break a case.
It's like a motion to dismiss.
If you are a plaintiff and somebody files a motion to dismiss and they win, then the case goes away.
That's why it's called a dispositive motion.
Summary judgment can be filed by either a plaintiff or a defendant, and it's in lieu of actually going to trial.
And this is what's very important to understand here is the standard for summary judgment is that there is no genuine issue of material fact such that a fact finder is not necessary to the legal process.
That means that there are only issues of law that need to be decided.
And so you don't need a judge to act as a fact finder and you don't need a jury.
And it's a pretty tough burden to shoulder because you have to prove through affidavits, through documentary evidence, and through emotion, through your legal papers, that there are no genuine issues of material fact.
And the other side can kick up dust and say, yes, well, there are genuine issues of material fact.
And the evidence is viewed in the light most favorable to the nonmoving party.
That's the standard.
So that means if the Empire State Building Realty Trust is the plaintiff, they can file their motion for summary judgment.
All the evidence that they submit is going to be viewed in the light most favorable to WBAI.
That's the situation we found ourselves in.
That's why it's a little bit dire here because even with all the facts construed in favor of WBAI, the judge still decided to write a pre-canned decision and read it aloud after the oral argument, finding entirely in favor of the Empire State Realty Trust.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of the road, however.
There is still some hope here.
You have an appeal as of right to a grant of summary judgment to the appellate division.
In this case, it would be the first appellate division here in – I'm sorry, not here, but in Manhattan.
I forget sometimes that we're in Brooklyn.
We're in Brooklyn, yes.
That's right.
I forgot that.
So the first appellate division, to give you an indication, we've had summary motion – summary judgment motions overturned.
In fact, we argued a motion for – we won a motion for summary judgment at the trial level against Walmart, as a matter of fact, and then had it reversed in the appellate division.
And then last week, we had it reversed again in the highest court of New York establishing new law in a case called Parietti.
So reversals of summary judgment happen all the time.
And this is definitely ripe for an appeal, but as Sam Himmelstein had noted, and I know Sam, and in fact, his firm and I have actually worked together on a couple of matters.
And I actually know Sam because he represented the tenants of the Chelsea Hotel in Manhattan, and that was quite an interesting case as well.
But if you go into the appellate division, they're going to look at the facts and the law pretty much anew.
So they're going to look at this as if they're seeing it for the first time.
But I will tell you, though, that appellate divisions and appellate judges, you have to convince a panel of them.
It's not just one.
You're going to have to convince them that the judge below got it wrong.
And appellate bodies don't necessarily like to disturb trial judges' rulings when it comes to dispositive motions like that.
Well, there is another court at play here that we haven't discussed, and that's the court of public opinion.
And now that this case has been decided and people hear that the Empire State Building is after us for $1.8 million that they want right away, they might start asking some questions as to how this came about.
Our general manager, Berthold Reimers, is joining us right now.
And I know, Berthold, this has been a tough day.
It's been a tough couple of years, really.
I mean, this Empire State Building contract has been a Damocles sword over our head for a very long time.
You know, since we were at 120 Wall Street, we were paying, you know, between this and the rent to Silverstein added up to close to $100,000 a month for this not-for-profit organization.
So this was pretty – such a burden on us.
And we can't just say we're done, we want to walk away from this.
No.
They won't let us do that.
They won't let us walk away from this.
So a quick history is about 10 or 15 years ago, right before – two years before 9-11, you know – well, 9-11 happened.
And three years after 9-11, when there was only one game in town, our contract came for renegotiation.
And the national office and the national board went and negotiated it with the Empire State Building.
And if I want to look at it in a positive way, I would say that they had no choice but negotiate whatever the Empire State demanded because they were a monopoly.
The only game in town.
There was no World Trade Center.
Times Square didn't exist yet, the transmitter that's there now.
Yes.
So we had no option except – and this is the national office deciding this – if we want to keep broadcasting in New York, Empire State Building.
Empire State, that's it.
And so they wrote into the contract that it's going to go up by a certain amount.
Up 10% every year.
And so you can imagine now – for example, this contract now is saying that we're paying about $55,000.
When I took over WBI about seven years ago, it was like $27,000 and change.
Now it's $55,000 a month.
And that's not for renting the little square, that five-foot square that we have.
Yeah.
How much space?
It's not that.
That is a very cheap contract.
It's about $1,200 or $2,000 and change.
What we're paying for is the rights to use the air.
This is the air of the public.
This is our air.
The air should be free.
The Empire State Building has gotten so many tax advantages to do whatever they do in New York.
Then what happened is on July 2014, after WBI and the national office lost the CPB funding
because of not having updated tax audit on time.
A whole other issue.
Other issues.
Went to the Empire State Building and told them that we cannot pay $55,000 a month.
And that was going up and up and up.
They said, well, you bring your account up to date and we can negotiate.
So in early July, I brought the account up to date, meaning that as of July 2014, we owed them $0.
And I went with Andrew as the development director.
We played good cop, bad cop.
So we negotiated.
But before we did that, we did our homework and we went to Four Times Square.
And then we figured that we could get $12,000 a month over there.
$12,000 a month?
Yes.
As opposed to $55,000 a month?
$55,000, $65,000, $75,000, depending on how much they charge you for the electricity, the utility, the water.
And then you have no idea what that means.
How do you check that?
So we went there and we negotiated with them.
And they said, OK, you can pay us $12,000 a month.
Now, to put this in perspective, we've been paying the Empire State Building $12,000 a month for three years now.
So you know how much a year it is?
$1.7 million, right?
In the past, when we used to pay rent, regular rent, if we were a month and a half behind, they used to send us court papers.
So as far as I'm concerned, just accepting the $12,000 a month for a year, two years, three years, was an implicit acceptance of the contract.
But they didn't actually write it down.
They told us they would not write it down.
One of the reasons they said is that if they write it down and it's in the public domain, then everybody else at the Empire State Building is going to come to them and say,
how come you're giving WBI a break and you're not giving us a break?
We're not putting this on paper.
So the national office and the Pacifica National Board went on to negotiate this deal that I made to see if we can come to a situation where we could have this legitimately put on paper.
Because at that point, not being an officer of the foundation or anything else, I have nothing else I could do.
This is the job of the national office and the executive office to pursue this.
And I don't want to be negative, but I think they should have pursued this a lot stronger.
They kind of sometimes did not do that for three years.
So for three years, it's been going on.
There's no chance anybody might have bugged them while they were having the conversation with you guys?
They went to the Empire State Building two or three times to talk about it.
And the Empire State Building had promised they would come up with a proposal in the contract to settle this.
And then the Empire State Building just, it's not in their interest to settle it.
It's in our interest to push them and to keep asking.
They played a game with us and they just never settled it.
Just to touch upon a point that you made a little bit earlier about the airways being free.
People might say that that's just dreaming.
But it's not something that is unprecedented.
There are many instances of stations, non-commercial stations, of which we are the bastion of non-commercial stations, get donations of transmitter sites.
In fact, one of our own stations in the Pacifica network, KPFK, has a donation for their 110,000-watt station in California.
They have two towels that relays the message.
All you have to do is maintain the towels.
So, I mean, when we are paying $55,000 to $65,000 of rent a month for this thing, they're probably paying a few thousand dollars.
Yeah, and that's reasonable. That's manageable.
That's something that it's tremendous pressure.
Like you said, the sword of Damocles, that you have to constantly be worrying about.
And it's not like the people at the Empire State Building don't have all the other radio stations paying them a huge amount of money, the ones that can afford this, the ones that sell commercials.
We don't sell commercials.
That's why we're fundraising constantly, because we don't have commercials.
My frustration is that, you know, the Rush Limbaugh's of the world are getting hundreds of millions of dollars of putting trash on the air.
Rush Limbaugh himself could afford a transmitter on top of the Empire State Building more than we can.
And so, you know, I am—let me be positive.
I'm putting a call out there to all those so-called progressive people who have made it, who have millions of dollars.
You know, I'm thinking—
Why stop there?
Why not go to the Rush Limbaugh's and the conservative people, too, and say, hey, you really want to embarrass us.
Why don't you give us $1.8 million, and then we'll have to thank you on the air, you know?
Absolutely.
I don't have a problem with that.
I challenge you.
I challenge you to do that out there.
But the challenge is to the progressive, the liberals who are making millions of dollars.
You know, they need to declare this money in taxes anyways.
And so what it is is they give those monies to other stations.
Well, people have to stop sniping at each other, and that's something that the left-wing liberals tend to not know how to stop doing.
I've already seen people saying, you know what?
BAI got just what it deserved.
They didn't listen to me years ago.
I hope they go down in flames.
These are people that used to be on our airwaves.
These are people that are supposedly on the same side, and because it didn't go exactly the way they wanted it to
or they had their precious time slot moved to a different day, they are now cheering for the demise of everything that they once cherished.
That has to stop.
We have to think differently.
We have to come together and realize that it's not always going to be what we want, but either we have this place or we don't.
Simple as that.
All right.
Perthold.
More important than ever before with Donald Trump and all of this thing going on here, you know, I don't want to brag,
but these past six months we keep on running into listeners after listeners who say that they feel that the air has improved,
the quality, the content.
They thank us profusely for what we do, for what you guys do.
You know, you brought Julian Assange on the air when he was not known like four years ago before the whole thing broke up,
and so forth and so on.
We get that on a regular basis.
It's only within a small circle people talk about how bad or good we don't do or anything like that,
but, you know, my wife went to the Friends Alliance of NYU, you know, all bougie thing, French speaking and stuff like that.
When she mentioned that her husband was the general manager of WBAI, they followed her.
She said she was talk.
She says she and my wife does not like WBAI, so she would not relay that message.
Your wife doesn't like WBAI?
Because of the, you know, I put 24-7.
Oh, okay.
Just like what it does to you.
Yes.
Okay, I get it.
And so she would not relay that message to me to encourage me to spend more time here,
but she was so impressed that she told me.
She mentions all the time.
You have a tent in your office.
You're here all the time.
So, you know, the intellectuals, these were intellectuals.
They were talking about books, French and stuff like that.
They support us.
You know, people love us, and so we need to see that in kind and donation, you know, from all those who can.
And some people can't.
I'm sure one person listening right now can just give $10 million to WBAI so we can take care of this problem, settle,
you know, build a nice studio instead of what you are dealing with right now here.
Yeah, what's up with that?
Yeah, it's all about fundraising.
It's all about building, and we can do it if we get together.
Berthold, thanks for stopping in, and hang in there.
All right, that's Berthold Reimers, our general manager.
Hard day today for all of us.
I don't know.
Alex?
Yeah, I wanted to go back to a couple of things that I said because I'm afraid that I may have painted, you know,
a picture that was extremely dire here.
It is dire.
You know, when someone says pay up $1.8 million, I tend to feel dire.
There is.
There's a couple things here, though.
I mean, this isn't the end by any means as well.
You know, there's going to be a way out of this.
WBAI, OA, Soldiers On will succeed.
In terms of the merits of the case, to touch on something that you guys mentioned is this unconscionability issue.
I think that may have some legs.
You know, Sam Himmelstein is a great lawyer, and I haven't read the actual papers that were submitted,
but I think that there is some merit to this notion that in light of the circumstances after 9-11,
when the Empire State Building was the only game in town, that the terms of that contract may have been unconscionable.
They have to be unconscionable at that time, but they certainly may have taken advantage of that particular situation
to put in terms that would otherwise be commercially repugnant.
Even though sophisticated parties allegedly negotiated this, I think one definitely had greater means,
and this could possibly even be argued that it was a contract of adhesion at that particular moment as well.
A contract of adhesion, what is that?
Well, there's really no bargaining.
It's like you're given this and you take it or you leave it.
Contracts of adhesion are generally what you get from some kind of software supplier,
like terms of service, terms of use.
You don't have any opportunity to negotiate that.
There's been lots of arguments about whether those particular contracts are binding or whether they're contracts of adhesion.
So I think this has some legs.
The other thing that I want to touch on is that the piece that we aired noted that there's a judgment now.
The judge rendered a decision.
However, New York State Courts, being what they are, if they are still as backlogged as they were last year,
we had a case that was reversed on appeal in the First Appellate Division,
and it took about 13 weeks to actually get the judgment entered by the county clerk.
So that means there's some time.
There's some time for us to rally.
There's some time for us to organize.
There's a lot of time for us to fundraise as well, to put political pressure on the Empire State Realty Trust,
to bend and be a little bit more flexible when it comes to accepting something reasonable as a settlement for this judgment.
Because after that judgment is entered by the county clerk,
that's when they have the ability to freeze bank accounts, to issue subpoenas, to take depositions, to enforce the judgment.
That can become very painful.
Depending upon the posture that they're taking with respect to WBAI, that can also get really expensive for WBAI.
So I think the time is now to rally, to organize, to support WBAI as best as you financially can.
And I'll leave it to you to segue for the reason why we're here.
Well, yeah, and I mean, there are so many things that you could point your finger at and say,
this should have been done differently.
This was mismanaged.
The thing to remember, folks, is that there are a lot of people here, a vast majority of people volunteer.
The number of people who are paid are relatively few and far between.
But everybody, paid or unpaid, does a lot of work, does an incredible amount of hours, and it's extremely stressful.
I've seen firsthand the health effects, and sometimes it costs people their lives.
I've seen people who have lost their lives to stress because they just spent every waking hour here dealing with a lot of crap.
And that's something that none of us want to see, none of us should have to deal with.
But it's kind of in our blood when we get impassioned and want to support a place like WBAI that we believe strongly in.
And yes, people are going to make mistakes.
People are going to do things in ways you might not agree with.
I hear way too much that someone's not going to contribute one red dime until this person is gone or that person or a particular strategy has changed.
And we have to grow up.
We have to realize that it's not always going to be the way we want it to be.
The people that we don't like are sometimes going to be here as well.
You might hear a program that you hate.
You might not like the program that you're currently listening to.
You might want the schedule to work differently.
But the thing is, you know, there's only one person that manages the program schedule that makes the final decision.
We have to realize that that's how a radio station works.
There's only one person who is managing the whole thing.
You might not like the person.
You might not agree that's the person that should be in the job at this particular moment.
But that's the fact.
And you have to deal with those facts and you have to work within the constraints of whatever system happens to be in place at that time.
And I just see way, way too many complaints that constantly don't get addressed or don't get resolved or just last forever.
And we need to compromise.
We need to move forward and realize that it's not going to be perfect, but it's all we have right now.
If you want to donate to WBAI, you can do so in a number of ways, chief of which would be online at give to WBAI.org.
We also accept via SMS.
You can text WBAI to the number 41444.
And I encourage you to give whatever you can, any level.
All of it is going to go towards our regular goals as well as whatever else we can contribute to this ruling that we're faced with with regards to the Empire State Building.
We also are taking calls.
The pledge number is 516-620-3602.
Again, call to pledge whatever you can, 516-620-3602.
Now, the issue of premiums is something that always comes up, and we're in the middle of that as well because we basically donate all kinds of premiums to the radio station.
And most of them have been sent out for the spring fundraiser.
We haven't gotten to the summer fundraiser yet.
There was only one premium for that, but we are getting to that.
But, okay, I want to address full on one of the issues that we're having with premiums.
And this will give you an idea of how overworked people are here and how crazy it can get sometimes.
We have premiums that we offer that we get donated, and we have, say, a dozen of a particular item, maybe 20 of something else.
And we give out the phone number, and people call in, and they say, yes, for $50, I'll get this.
And the way it's supposed to work, when that number is reached, you shouldn't be able to get it anymore.
However, because of the way our website is put together, if you – I'm going to tell people exactly how it works.
If you click on the item, it'll say out of stock.
But if you click on add to cart, you'll be able to add it to your cart.
You'll be able to add 1,000 of them to your cart.
It's a bug in our system.
And we have this problem that keeps coming back to us because we donate items to the station,
and then all of a sudden we're being asked to donate even more that we can't get anymore.
And that's why tonight we have to say that we are only offering the Hope Keynote Series on DVD or on flash drive, your choice.
Actually, I have to look up how much that actually is as far as pledges, because we can continue to make those.
That's the reason why limits don't apply.
But for the other thing, we have to fix that.
We have to fix that particular thing on the website, which nobody has time to get to,
but we have to do that if we're going to offer things that are of limited quantity.
We're telling everyone, but please don't do that.
We're going to know right away if you do any kind of –
Well, you're not going to get 1,000 of them.
I'll tell you that right now.
Yeah, we'll tell you what.
You'll be very disappointed if you're expecting it.
Yeah, if there's a book or something that you find, you can do this one.
A, we don't have it.
B, we'll know.
And yeah, it's not that funny.
I think it works just fine if you call the pledge line, 516-620-3602.
They know what we have and what we don't have.
The problem is when you go to the website and there are ways that you can click on things and add things that we don't have any more of.
But the thing that will work everywhere is what's called the Hope Conference Keynote Series for a pledge of $75.
You can get every keynote address that we have had, including Edward Snowden, Steve Wozniak, Corey Doctorow, Kevin Mitnick, Jello Biafra.
The pledge is $75.
You choose whether you want that on a bunch of DVDs or whether you want that on one tiny flash drive.
And it's a video presentation, a lot of very interesting talks, things that we've presented at the Hacker Conferences since 1994 up until last year.
And it's something we're very proud of as well and something we're happy to offer to the radio station.
Call 516-620-3602.
But think, please, of the radio station.
That should be the main reason why you make the phone call or why you go to give to WBAI.org in the first place, to keep the radio station broadcasting.
Because it's those donations that we pay the bills with.
It's those donations that have kept us on the air since 1960.
And we do our very best.
I can say for the off-the-hook staff that every single inquiry about premium issues is dealt with, is addressed.
And while we have these occasional hiccups, we're coming to you.
We're telling you exactly what the problem is in case you have run into a problem.
And we take them very seriously, and we make sure they're resolved one way or another.
Yeah, I just want to add that when that does happen, we're unable to send out for people that do actually have an item that corresponds with what they pledged for.
E.g., people that get the items, the first however many that we've got, they're held up by this process.
The point is, please, if you're not as important about a specific item or anything, just give what you can in recognition of the cost to just simply have the discussion, have the airways, be WBAI.
It is costly, and your dollars go to that.
Whether you get something, it's not really about that.
Remember, it's a thank-you gift.
We're saying thank you for your gift, and we intend to do that.
But these problems that we run into occasionally, they might slow down the process.
If you're willing to donate without a material item as a thank-you, and you just really want to support the station through and through, that's a great way.
Because it lessens the burden on creating the thank-you gifts and dealing with these kinds of hiccups.
That's the most important thing.
516-620-3602.
Call that number.
Make your pledge.
Or go to give to WBAI.org.
Make your pledge there.
Or text to 41444 with the letters WBAI and make your pledge that way.
And with all of that, with all the people who listen to us and listen to the radio station throughout the course of the week, we can get through this crisis, and we will continue to fight the injustice that we face on a local level, on a national level, on an international level.
And God willing, one day on an interplanetary level, we will be here for that.
So please, keep us going.
516-620-3602.
Rob?
Yeah, so if you think what we do here is at all important, especially in the media environment and the governmental environment and just the world that we're in right now, I think a voice like Pacifica's and a voice like BAI's is more important than it's probably ever been in this station's history.
And if it were lost, I say this every pledge drive, but it's always true, if we lost this station, we would not get it back.
We would not get anything like it back in this part of the FM dial, in this major metropolitan area.
This was basically the biggest fluke, the biggest, weirdest accident, the biggest, wonderful mix-up of events that led to the existence of this place.
And if you look up WBAI on Wikipedia or whatever, you can read the full history of that.
It's fascinating.
But it would not happen again, not like this.
So call 516-620-3602 or go to give2wbai.org and help keep this madness going because we need your support.
And we also have to start thinking differently about how we do things around here.
We know that.
And we need your suggestions, your opinions on this.
And, you know, in a constructive way, not, you know, the things we see where people say either you do it this way or I'm done, I'm not even going to listen anymore.
We need to work together.
We're not going to get everything we want.
But, you know, things like finding an alternative way to have the transmitter without paying $55,000 a month, that's a start right there.
We have to think differently.
We have to try and find people who can help us get a donated site or help us deal with these financial constrictions.
Premium issues.
I mentioned before that we donate our premiums to the radio station.
You know, there is no reason in the world why the radio station should be buying premiums from anyone.
And lots of times I hear about this, that the radio station has to buy premiums at cost.
Now, look, I know what at cost means.
At cost is basically a financial trick that you can put forth to not spend money yourself, to maybe make something back, but you're offering it for less than you would if somebody were paying the maximum price for it.
You know, we believe in spending.
When we donate, the radio station spends nothing for our premiums.
We make the premiums.
We spend the money to produce them.
That is what every producer should do.
I don't like, you know, issuing mandates saying what every producer should do, but to keep the radio station going, it's a tremendous privilege to be on the radio, to have a voice, to be able to reach your audience and to get your opinions and your various agendas put forth on this massive radio station that reaches four different states just with its transmitter.
So for that, yeah, I think we all should be donating in one way or another however we can.
And the idea of actually taking money, even for something that is at cost, it's something that's very distasteful to us.
So I think that needs to change.
Also, we were listening earlier when Tony Bates and Berthold were on, actually taking listener phone calls, and the issue of underwriting.
You know, we don't do any underwriting on this radio station.
Underwriting is, it's not a commercial.
It's basically saying that, well, as an example, this edition of Off the Hook was underwritten by E Corp, you know, Evil Corp.
Well, that's not what they really are.
Yeah, that's good.
No, they support us.
Yeah, they do.
And, you know, something like that.
You make an announcement.
You maybe read their address or something at the beginning of the hour and the end of the hour, and they pay for that.
They pay a substantial amount for that.
If we were to do that throughout the course of a day, a lot of money would come in that's not coming in right now.
Now, you know, from the beginning, Pacifica has been dead set against doing any sort of underwriting.
You hear it all the time on other non-commercial radio stations.
NPR, they go a little too far.
They have virtual commercials.
I'm not talking about going that far.
You hear underwriting on pirate radio stations.
You do.
Well, you hear full-fledged commercials on pirate radio.
They don't care.
They don't care.
It doesn't make a difference.
But, you know, the rule is, the rule is that below 92, you're not allowed to have commercials, but you can't have underwriting.
We're above 92.
We're 99.5.
And, you know, technically, we could have commercials, but we will never have commercials, not while we're a Pacifica station.
But we can have underwriting, and I think we can do it without compromising our sound.
It's something we should be exploring.
It's something that we could actually turn a corner and start, you know, doing much better, significantly better.
And it gets the community involved in ways that they're not involved right now.
So, you know, ideas like that.
You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
That's 2600.com.
If you have ideas of your own or feedback of any sort, how this radio station, how this radio network could be run differently so that we don't constantly face the specter of falling apart.
You know, we have so many intelligent people, so many competent people, so many really brilliant people.
And we all deserve better.
Voltaire.
I have a good idea of a source of money.
What's your idea?
Hey, Siri, text WBAI to 41444.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
All the Siris that are doing that now, we thank you.
And Alexa.
No, no, come on.
This will catch up to us.
It will.
But, you know, the creative ways.
And, you know, we talked about celebrities.
There are a lot of celebrities out there.
$1.8 million is nothing.
And if they believe in what we stand for, consider it.
Consider being a hero to us at this time of urgent need, at a time when we all need a voice like WBAI and Pacifica.
I want to build on something that Rob had mentioned a bit earlier.
You know, there's a storied history of WBAI soldiering on and fighting the good fight.
Think back, and I frequently go back to this period when we're talking about fundraising.
I know this.
Think back to 2000 when the Pacifica National Board was infiltrated by supposed corporate interests and we almost lost the station, right?
The station was about to be sold, and we fought that.
Can you believe that was 17 years ago?
And here we are facing another dire situation, another existential threat to the station.
We're going to survive.
We need your help to do it.
You can go back in the off-the-hook archives at 2600.com slash off-the-hook and listen to every single show we've done and hear a lot of these crises play out.
So, you know, when we say, yeah, this is dire, we've done dire before.
And that's why I think we'll figure out a way through this with ourselves and our listeners.
But we've had a very tumultuous history in this place.
There's no question about that.
And in 2000, the year 2017, it never crossed anybody's mind.
It sounded like something out of a science fiction novel.
And 17 years from now, I want us to be in 2034 looking back at 2017 saying, yeah, we got through that.
We did it again.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, if anyone else were faced with this, any other radio station that's used to having everything done for them, they would never survive.
We're used to the struggle here.
We're used to challenges.
And I'm not saying we're definitely going to survive, but if anyone can, it's us.
No question.
And it's our listeners.
Hey, speaking of our listeners, I like to open up phone lines so people can say what's on their mind.
347-335-0818 is our number.
But again, please, it's not about who you want to see in power.
It's not about, you know, your way or the highway.
It's about bonding together, thinking creatively, coming up with ways around this, and realizing the importance of WBAI, of Pacifica, of alternative media in general.
We've seen a lot of bad things happen over the past number of years.
We've seen a lot of noncommercial radio stations disappear.
We've seen a lot of printed publications disappear.
And we've seen a lot of homogenization.
Consolidation.
Consolidation.
All these horrible things have happened.
And there's a reason.
There's a reason for that.
It's basically a trend.
When you have alternative thought start to get wiped out, people think differently, and they realize there's no hope.
And that's exactly where the powers that be want you to be.
We become fragmented, sort of siloed in our little communities, and only listening to very little things.
That sort of mass communication, that ability to broadcast widely and then share that ability, that resource with the people you serve, it's unlike anything else.
It's worth investing in.
We're encouraging you to invest in it.
Please text WBAI to 41444.
You can also pledge by calling 516-620-3602.
That's 516-620-3602.
Or give to WBAI.org.
Yes.
Again, our phone number.
And we can only take one phone call at a time.
So if you get a busy signal, well, you might ask yourself, what's that?
Because you hardly ever hear busy signals anymore.
Just try again.
347-335-0818 is our phone number.
347-335-0818.
That's not the pledge line.
That's the call-in line.
347-335-0818.
Let's try and keep it brief and as succinct as possible.
Let's take a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Yeah, it's Tom from the Bronx here.
Hi, Tom.
One of our loyal listeners.
I'd like to say your station, unfortunately, has a lot of corporate enemies, obviously.
Oh.
You know, if we didn't, I'd worry.
Imagine that.
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is this.
Some time ago, I had an idea that if you had some, like, movie houses, you know, tied to Pacifica or WBAI,
that you may be able to put out some, like, movies.
Have, like, a BAI film festival.
Well, and we could show movies downstairs.
We have a great space right here at 388 Atlantic, you know, that we could use for that.
That's a great idea.
That's a good idea.
What kind of film would you like to play there?
Well, I would say, like, maybe you can—well, not all educational.
Maybe you can have a, like, movies made by newcomers that they could put in.
I mean, it's only an idea I have.
It's a good idea, and it should be pursued.
You know, imagine somebody like Michael Moore comes and shows one of his films downstairs.
And, you know, people pay $75 a head to see that, to ask him questions.
And I think that would happen.
We'd raise a lot of money.
You know, it's probably about $10,000 we could raise just with that one thing.
That would be awesome.
Well, how big is a movie theater there?
And that's not putting the pressure on Michael Moore.
Just he's an example.
It's an event space, but it could accommodate a small gathering, of course, for a movie or any number of different events.
It's our event space, but it's not the only event space in town.
You know, there are other event spaces that could rent out or even donate space to us.
All kinds of things.
New York City.
I mean, for God's sake, there are so many possibilities here.
There's so many things and ideas that are worth pursuing.
There's a lot of smart people here that are investing time and thought.
And we're asking as well as a donation, but we would love more ideas like this and people to invest those ideas in WBAI to support its mission.
And to take ownership in the station themselves when they do that, to realize this is their station.
They have a say in how things go, and they should be a part of it as much as possible.
I would like to say, too, that the movie wouldn't be as big as, you know, what you get in a regular movie theater.
Right.
We can't compete with that.
But they could be entertaining.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I mean, if you're talking to somebody who's in the movie or who made the movie or who is an expert on something, you know, that adds so much more to it.
It could be comedies, too.
Of course.
It could be musicals.
Anything's possible.
Hey, Tom, let me ask you one final question, Tom.
How did you find WBAI?
What was your introduction to it?
I was just spinning the dial one night.
Just spinning the dial?
Originally, I mean.
Wow.
How I found it originally was just spinning the dial, and all of a sudden I heard the station that didn't have advertisements, and I was very curious.
So you were, like, moving from Hot 97 to Z-100, and you just happened to stop in the middle, and you got us.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's how it actually happened.
I think the first person I heard was Uncle Sidney on there.
Oh, yes.
Oh, yeah.
We've had some amazing people on these airwaves, and we continue to have amazing people on these airwaves.
They have so many good programs on.
I had an idea in this respect.
Like, Uncle Sidney, if they brought him back, he can have, like, a puppet with him, like somebody who's a ventriloquist.
Wait, what?
A ventriloquist program on the radio.
I love it.
Wow.
It works for Edgar Bergen.
It would be, in other words, have a ventriloquist with him, and he'd be talking to the dummy, and the dummy would be talking about events of the world.
Well, you know, Tom, I hope you consider doing radio as well, because I think you'd be really good in addition.
Well, I was on CB.
That's the only thing I was on years ago, Citizens Band.
Awesome.
Wow.
How about a CB radio show?
I don't know what it would be like, but there's so many ideas.
We have the space.
We have the airwaves.
There are all kinds of things that we can do.
You know, building on something we said earlier about donating and fulfilling our own premiums, I'd like to put a call out there.
I know we have a lot of creative people who listen to the show, people who write, people who make things, people who make music, all sorts of things.
And if you produce something which you think might make a good premium for this show that you'd like to donate any amount of to, get in touch with us, OTH at 2600.com.
We're always looking for new ideas and new things that we can provide as a thank you.
OTH at 2600.com, or you can tweet at Hacker Radio Show on Twitter.
Tom, I want to thank you very much for listening and for calling.
Thanks for listening.
All right.
Take care.
Tom is just one of our many loyal listeners out there.
Glad he stopped when he was going through the dial there.
That's how it is.
That's the randomness of radio.
We're glad he's there.
We're glad he's a part of the VA.
All right.
Let's try and take one more phone call.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Go ahead.
Make it quick.
You didn't finish the Times Square story, the fourth Times Square.
That antenna was supposed to have been moved for one third the price.
What happened?
I think what happened, I'm not an expert on exactly.
You'd have to ask somebody who was intimately involved.
But I believe we couldn't get out of the contract with Empire State, and we were forced to pay them 10 percent more every year until that contract ends.
And it's insane.
It's crazy.
It's something that I'm unfamiliar with.
But that's the world of commercial leases, apparently.
Alex?
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I mean, my understanding of what happened is that if you broke that lease, then we'd be responsible for those damages.
They'd probably have a duty to mitigate those damages.
But who could they get?
And those damages would be what?
All the rent that we would have to pay for those remaining years?
That's correct.
You know Empire State Building can't afford this.
You know, it's a tiny amount of space, as Berthold was saying earlier.
And basically what we have to pay 55 grand a month for, soon to be more than that even, is just having an antenna up high.
That's really all it is.
That's right.
And we'd be on the hook for that unless we found somebody, or they found somebody to take our place.
That's my understanding of what likely would have happened.
All right.
Well, somebody is going to take our place now.
It's a personal computer show.
They're moving in at 9 o'clock.
So we're out of time.
I want to thank the people who are calling in.
Please make sure you call the pledge line, 516-620-3602.
Text to 41444.
The letter is WBAI.
Or go to the website, give2wbai.org.
And pledge whatever you can afford.
Again, we're offering the premiums for the HOPE keynote addresses, all of our HOPE conferences since 1994.
You can get that on either flash drive or DVD, your choice.
There are a number of other premiums that are offered as well that are non-off-the-hook premiums.
But the biggest premium of all is WBAI.
And I hope people realize that and appreciate that.
And that's going to do it.
I believe we have meetings coming up this week.
We do.
2,600 meetings going on all over the world this weekend.
Go to 2600.com slash meetings to find one near you or start your own.
All right.
Thanks again, everybody.
Stay tuned.
Hopefully we'll be back next week.
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Today is October the 4th, 2017.
Welcome to the Personal Computer Show.