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Time is just about 7 o'clock, time for a special two-hour edition of Off The Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
Bum diddly bum!
And you're listening to Off The Hook, where nothing's working as usual.
Um
Sorry, we were supposed to have North Korean music underneath us
And apparently that's not to be because somebody switched the switch to something else should be CD to Kyle
All right. This is Emanuel. It's gonna be a great night joined tonight by Mike
Should I say something about the great leader? Anyway, drop T Firefly. Good evening, Kyle
Hello and Bernie s
Greetings from Philadelphia. No, let me just take the thing and put it in the other CD player that we know works you guys fill time
It's a it's an exciting week to be here on the air because it is the winter fun drive
Yes, indeed, and our friend Jim is here
That's true. Hi Jim
Hey, Jim
So that's that's good news all around and we're excited to kick off the winter fundraising
That's what I just said. No, no, no over here on this side of the studio
So our audience can't see that you're all the way on the other side of the studio. Well, it's it's dimensional
At least a meter away. So it's a long way. The the news is just reaching you. Yeah
Yeah, we got wind of the fundraiser. It's really exciting because this is how we keep ourselves on the air
Oh
Oh
Oh
Oh
Oh
Yeah, now that's much better that's a better way to enter the the programming night, of course the North Korean classic under the
light of the moon
I'm sorry. You're saying this is better than a fun drive. Oh, no, this is an addition to the fun drive
This is the this is the kind of music that will get people flocking to the phones and once they make the call
Then we ask them to contribute to keep things going
So here we are
again
Welcome, Mike Robb Kyle and Bernie
This is a special two-hour edition and we are playing North Korean music for the entire two hours
But not out loud because we'll be playing other things as well, but it will be going in the background
There's a reason for that too, which we'll get to a little bit later
but yeah, this is the the opening night of the
Season is this winter winter fundraiser mean it may not feel like it especially in the studio, but it's winter somewhere
Yes here. Okay. Reggie's here to figure out what happened this time. I know how to press the play button this this it doesn't work
Oh, yeah, it doesn't come over here because somebody well now you turned us off. Yeah, I turned the music off
Wow
You think it's gonna work just by doing that we did that before
So we had it backwards
Alright guys fill time while I go back and it wouldn't be the same if everything just worked, right?
Like it'd be very disappointing and we have two-hour show tonight. So it's especially a friend anymore
We have an hour and 15 minutes
We will get into why we're playing this a little later
But suffice to say it is mostly in honor of the fun drive that we are listening to these stirring
stirring musical
I don't even know how you describe it opera. I believe it is a form of opera. It's a rousing anthem
I think it it deserves its own its own category. Really opera opera is sort of limiting
I mean when when dear leader invented the opera, I think I think he would have wanted us to appreciate it on this level
It was him, right? Of course. Yeah. No that that sounds correct. I'm gonna get shot for this you realize
We're gonna get banned from Pyongyang. Well, okay, but I think that that's really what
What this station embodies not?
Necessarily those consequences but
It's really about the ability to say all kinds of things and and share those perspectives with the listening audience
so
we like to remind everyone around this time and during these drives when when we're here with you that
it's about keeping speech and
Diverse opinions on the airwaves and and contributing to the wider
Spectrum of ideas that are out there in
Sorry, nothing says diverse spectrum of ideas like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Yes. Yes
I'm glad you brought that up. What I don't even understand what I'm saying. Yeah
It's fine. Just let that wave of
loyalty and dedication
Let that what I don't have any loyalty or dedication
Where we have loyalty and dedication and that's to this radio station
Yeah, that's program because only Rob only at a station like this could you know?
It's one of the very few venues that we can truly express express what we feel we need to
and that that is protected and and kept around for us to do this and
It's it's hanging by a tenuous thread as as are so many. Yeah, just like this analogy
So like this analogy in a few short moments
we will share all the particulars about what we're offering this evening as well as ways you can get in touch with the
Tally room as we have called it in the past. So a lot of exciting things to look forward to there
but it is a it is a celebration of of
off the hook and
WBA I and
this grand tradition of community radio now
In Brooklyn, we've we've done many of I think last time we were doing this kind of fundraising
We were we were in a different location. Well, it's it's partly due to people's support and the exciting
changes that have taken place that we have this interesting studio that throws a diversity of
Configurations our way
but regardless of those configurations we continue to build and innovate and
share news and ideas from the hacker perspective
With the world and we're very grateful to be a part of WBA. I and a part of that community of diverse voices
Quite so and there's there's really something about all of this that that does embody the hacker spirit that you know
We're basically, you know
Like we can repair our broadcast equipment while broadcasting through it because we're a bunch of hackers and geeks and this is the sort of
You know had everything all planned out to
Seg perfectly and it just it just takes one thing failing but thanks Reggie for hooking up a Mac so that we could play CDs
Later, I mean no way of doing it. Otherwise, I was noting before the show to Rob
There's a precariously placed plug that someday will fall out of the wall
And I believe that is what all the other equipment is attached to and so there's sort of a week to week
I watch it slowly
hang more
Precariously away from the outlet and I know I won't be here when it happens
but someday the entire board will go dark and it will be because that
Socket falls out of the wall just part of the diversity and and and fascinating
ride that is
engineering here at
Off the wall or off the hook and and WBA I for the listeners who can't see us
I should point out that Kyle is the one sitting closest to this plug
Yeah, I sit in the same sort of location now I can check in on this particular outlet that is that the entire
technical
Entourage here hinges upon you could also embody the hacker spirit yourself and just kick it into place
Right or move it a little closer
So there's a little slack, but I'm worried that will be the the movement that actually pushes it over and out of the actual outlet
I'm sure someone could push it in further
And and so on okay
Well things are working. Yes, but unfortunately lost 15 minutes due to this. Well, it sounds great
Well, yeah, but that's what we got working at the beginning of the show
But getting the rest of the equipment working took a little bit longer
Sorry about that, but there's no time for us to get in here before the show to make sure things are working
So yeah, we are in the middle of a fundraiser. This is the the winter fundraiser
we're on for two hours and what we were offering tonight is a
package of something that
I'm completely blown away by I always am just by going through all the things that are presented from our
Our last conference which took place in
2014 was called hope X took place in New York City
And we have another conference coming up in July July 22nd through 24th at Hotel, Pennsylvania. That's called the 11th
Hope it's gonna be even better somehow. It's gonna be even better than the one we did in 2014. I don't believe you
yeah, it's it's every every every time you say that but every time we do it and
What we're gonna do tonight is is just give you an example of some of the things that have taken place
Simply at the last conference, which is simply unbelievable the diversity of people the the skill set
It's just like I said, it blows me away. This is a lot of fun for me
I love going back and listening to some of these and it really is the the amount of the the way we're able to
Condense and coalesce all these interests and ideas and get them around
This structure of a talk and a presentation it's it's it's kind of
Amazingly simple, but it's really beautiful in the end what we come up with and we just get these these great
these great opinions and and and
ideas that may turn you
Illuminate your your perspective and turn you on to something you had no idea you'd be interested in and and it really is fun
Fun and gets me excited about the event coming up in July. Yes
and we have picked a
handful of
Of talks here to to highlight but what we are offering for people who call in and who wants to give out the phone number
Go ahead two one two two zero nine two nine five zero. That's right
Two one two two zero nine two nine five zero is the number to call to pledge and if you pledge
Only fifty dollars five zero fifty dollars
You will get every single one of the talks that we presented at Hope X in
2014 on DVD you'll get about a hundred DVDs in the mail. That's gonna be something I was
Putting these premiums into the system last night and I assumed there must be some mistake you get all these DVDs
For a pledge of $50. That's right. That's right, but it gets even better than that if you don't want a hundred
DVDs showing up at your door you can get something much smaller
What has the same amount of information and that is the Hope X thumb drive? It's 64 gigs
That's how big the thumb drive is and it contains all the talks in full quality mp3 mp4 format, I believe
and
You're free to copy them and put them on your own system
And then you have a 64 gig thumb drive as well and that's for a pledge of $75 to 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0
So it's really many talks about a hundred hundred talk at least a hundred. I think the size of my thumb. Yeah
Pledge is $75 and some of them are longer than an hour too, which makes it even even better
So it's it's an amazing amount of material, but you know, don't believe me. Don't take my word for it
I'd like to just play an excerpt from from one of the talks
How many of you did any of you go to a talk called disruptive wearable technology?
I
Did not because one of the sad things about the hope conference is even for those of us who attended it is
Impossible to see every talk. That's true. That's true
But if you got the thumb drive or the DVDs, you can watch them all
yes, so don't be like Mike and miss this talk because it's a really really good talk and you can see it for yourself on
Either a thumb drive or a DVD if you pledge to 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 now
This particular talk was presented by Becky Stern, she's a director of wearable electronics at Adafruit and
They're really awesome organization
Probably heard about them in the hacker world
I read you a little bit of the synopsis of the talk as technology becomes ever more embedded in the fabric of our society and
even our clothes
We must grapple with ever more complicated trade-offs regarding privacy and security
This talk will highlight disruptive wearable technologies that creatively and assertively address these modern technological and social
Changes come learn about underwear that tattles on a TSA agents wandering fingers during a secondary screening
Makeup that makes you imperceptible the facial recognition software and eye tracking glasses that let a paralyzed graffiti writer tag again
I mean, this is just so awesome
This this represents the kinds of things that we strive for in presenting conferences of thousands of hackers from around the world
this kind of excuse me creativity and and technology and and and
Just sharing of the information and I know that this year it's going to be even more of a step in the right direction
So let's listen to this excerpt and hopefully it'll work on this machine and we'll be back
Hopefully with a lot of phone calls 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0
So hi everybody if you don't know me
My name is Becky Stern. I'm the director of wearable electronics at adafruit industries DIY electronics kit company
Here in New York City
It's okay
And we make parts and sensor breakouts and tutorials and source code for makers and hackers to build their own
Technology and mod the stuff they already have but my passion is combining
electronics and crafts to make unexpected useful self-expressive and
mischievous wearable electronics
You good there?
Okay
But in addition to making stuff with electronics, I'm no stranger to using fashion as a hacking tool for culture
This is a project I volunteered on called wall suits where we you know
We brought a whole bunch of donated business suits for men and women to Zuccotti Park for the Occupy Wall Street protesters
and we offered haircuts and a changing booth to
You know transform their look so that their appearance might be more palatable to those they wished to affect
So their message would be more likely to be heard and there's me
There's me down in the corner there at the at the pants hemming hemming station
So to me the definition of
Disruptive wearable technology is the application of science that that disturbs or interrupts an activity
I'm not so not so much talking about the definition of disruptive. That means like groundbreaking
Or innovative because obviously most of these things will already do that, but the ones that interrupt
or disturb
They can you know disruptive wearable tech can solve some problems
You know probably by creating some problems if you took the subway here
Maybe something like this could have helped you and the projects. I'm going to share with you today cover like the last 10 years of
Creative use of technology that impacts culture
Things that you wear on your person. This is the creative misuse of some anti bird technology from the garden store
implemented by a
student in Singapore named Su Ming Cheng I
I
Think that wearables have the potential to inspire us protect us express ourselves and give us real-life superpowers and a lot of that
Hacking the body culture comes from our favorite place MIT
Up here. We've got Steve Mann with you know
Some people call him whether you agree with it or not the grandfather of Google glass
Leah Beakley the inventor of the lily pad Arduino
I have a dear founder of little bits and my boss Lamore freed who you know in her spare time likes to make cell phone
jammers
there's other places a lot of academic places, but I think the main the main place a lot of this culture comes from is is
MIT NYU's interactive telecommunications program lately when I went through my slides. It's like wow. There's a lot represented there
and
So we'll just dive right in I'm going to show you a bunch of projects, and there's more or less in chronological order
We'll go take it back to 2005 from the old afro tech mod site raise your hand for your big fan
Yeah, and I had to fetch this from archive.org because the site's a lot different now. These are the Pika shoes they have
Ion generator in the sole of the shoe and it helps you build up a static charge so that you can shock people by touching
them and
They're not very we're going to go through and see maybe things get a little bit more fashionable
and I'll talk about fashion at the end, but
These are definitely mischievous right and they're they're useful and they give you that superpower like Pikachu
It's hard to get these parts. I've been told it's hard to get their ion generators now, so that's one reason
You can't build this project yourself right now, but it is a how-to guide
This is random search by I have a deer is her thesis project from MIT
And it's it's an undergarment that records the location and pressure of the way you're touched during a secondary screening at the airport
and
She did a lot of research to make this garment
Undetectable by x-ray so that she could wear it through the airport and not you know not be secondarily screened because of the project
but rather
so she used
Some those are conductive velcro up there, and then these are the fabric sensors that she did a test there. You have a little video
Oh, sorry
Oh teaser
So you know as an as a Middle Eastern woman she felt extra targeted and then powerless
To you know complain if someone touched her inappropriately and she was secondary screened
You know all the time and so the this garment gives her the power to track that misconduct
So you'll see that's a theme going through that we have wearable electronics and technology can make us feel powerful
Here she is proving that it doesn't go off in the metal detector
Let's go ahead
So this is a this is one of two projects of my own that I put and I managed to weasel into my slideshow
This is the laptop compu body sock
Maybe you've seen it before and you didn't know I made it well because it's popular on the internet
But I made this I knit it with my own two knitting needles
It was major I made it as a as a sculpture and art piece
I was in grad school
and I wanted to sort of highlight the attention space that you have when you're using the computer like nothing else matters and
But the fun thing about art is that the meaning is whatever the viewer decides it is right and I'm big into that like of
Whatever your interpretation of his art, so if you feel like you don't get art you go to the museum
It's whatever you think it's about and it's the artist's job to sort of like raise questions that make you get gears moving in your
head
And that means that once it's out there in the world on the internet like commentary happens, you know
Like I didn't think it was for porn, but I guess I guess that's what it's for
But really when I made it I
Wanted my fingers were cold and I was typing and I wanted to make a keyboard cozy and then I just like couldn't stop knitting
I read an article actually that Edward Snowden uses something like this like a big red hoodie to like cover his computer because then you
Can't see typing or like what's on your screen?
This is my my old roommate who's such a good sport on our we took a trip to Maker Faire and he modeled for me
on the airplane
The next project is the I writer it's by members of free art and technology or fat
I'm also a member of that group, but I didn't work on this project. So it doesn't count as my yeah
And it's the the I writer is a pair of eye tracking glasses that let this paralyzed graffiti artist draw again
and
That's I think it's really powerful and it's made with DIY tech low cost stupid camera IR LEDs cheap plastic glasses
And I have a little video about that
All right, and that was an excerpt from
Hope X. What do you guys think? I
Liked it. I wish I had seen the whole talk. Well, you can see the whole talk if you if you pledge now
$50 for the for the DVDs
$75 for the thumb drive you'll get that plus about 99 other talks and you'll be able to see
Just what Becky was talking about. Wait, I don't think I understood. These are all video. Yes
Yes, you were hearing audio because this is radio, but there is video attached to this as well
Yeah, exactly
if if you were listening and you were wondering what she was referring to when she was showing off pictures of things or you would
Have liked to see them you can because we're going to present them in
Wonderfully clear HD video
Yes
and 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 is the number to call to pledge to get this talk and about 99 others from
Hope X a lot of stuff going on with
Textiles and new materials and stuff. That's exciting. I want to know more about this kind of
integration of clothing and sensors and stuff like that
For Kyle to make a phone call to pledge for this so he can find out more about this and 99 other times
It wasn't a prediction I had but I think you know fashion is is it's it hacking is is always fashionable
So why not incorporate fashion and and this new electronic?
Yeah ability you can you can integrate into them and Becky Stern who was speaking is well known for
For working at the crossroads of hacking and fashion
Her work is you might have seen it in make magazine if you're if you keep up with that or at Maker Faire
Such events and she does really really brilliant things and she was good enough to bring them to hope cool
And of course if you're not familiar with her work, what better way to become familiar than to see her full talk
Absolutely 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 to get this and all the other talks from Hope X in
2014 again pledges of $50 gets you all the DVDs pledge of $75 gets you all the files on a 64 gig thumb drive
Bernie, what do you think of this talk? I?
Didn't catch that talk either because you know
We're running around trying to make help that conference happen and as Mike pointed out
It's impossible, even if you're just a bystander to hope and not
Not one of the organizers. There's no way you can see all the talks because we have like three of them going on at once
So it's just an extravaganza of content
But now in the palm of your hand you can have about a hundred hope talks and panels and other great information
And support this radio station for a mere
$75 for the flash drive or if you want to have a hundred DVDs, which is a little unwieldy
That's $50 frankly Emanuel. I think you're crazy for donating all
All this because this is a tremendous value a hundred DVDs for $50. That's 50 cents per
DVD with each an amazing video of
Of a talk don't talk me out of it now
Now that you mentioned that does seem like an awful lot that we're giving away here
This is like this is like the deal of the century really. This is pretty amazing
So I just want to encourage our listeners, even if you went to the hopex conference, you know
We had Daniel Ellsberg and Edward Snowden and it's a really amazing speakers at that conference
Even if you were there, I doubt you've seen all the talks
So call 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 and you will have them all you can hold them in your hands and
You can still support this radio station, which is the only station I know of that will
Allow us to cover this stuff in such depth and detail
Also, these DVDs are things that we make available on our own store
And I can't tell you on the radio how much we charge for them because that's against the rules
But I can tell you that this is significantly significantly less than you would pay to get all of these in one package at one time
Anywhere else but here at WBA I because it's it's our donation to the station and
To our supporters for helping us out and helping us stay on the air
so call 2 1 2 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 or you could use the internet go to give to WB
AI org and and find the listing for the for the hope DVDs there or the hope jump track
Yeah, we have to get the exact phrasing right because if you don't get it exactly right
Sometimes I can't find it. This would be the hope archives thumb drive and hope archives DVD collection
So if you're having trouble on the phone 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 or you can't find it at give to WB
AI org that's what you have to look for and it's it's right there looking at it right now 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5
0 we have another talk. Yes. There's more than more than one time. Well, we're not going to play on 99
No one could and the 99 is just an estimate. I don't know. I lost track after a while
but this is another talk that we
Really haven't excerpted before and I think it's a it's a good idea to to do this. This is a talk given by
hacker safecracker and computer science professor Matt blaze who
Did a talk on it was called geolocation location location technology and countermeasures for mobile location surveillance
Something we talked about week after week here on this particular program
Read you a little bit of the abstract to this
We all know that law enforcement and private companies for that matter can track you through your mobile phone
But how exactly does tracking work? How precise are they?
When can they get this data and is there anything you can do to obscure your movements without moving into a Faraday cage?
This talk will discuss the various technologies that law enforcement intelligence agencies and private industry used to track individual movements
And there are a surprising number of different techniques
This is a talk that I didn't get to see that if you folks managed to see this one. No, it's not Bernie
How about you? I didn't catch it. I really wanted to know Matt
He's one of the are really valued volunteers making the whole conference happening and I caught part of it
But then I follow it up later
I watched the video later and it's amazing if you're concerned about surveillance of your cell phone or surveillance of you
Through your cell phone not just by our government but by companies and other entities
This is a worthwhile talk to listen to and watch it. It's pretty eye-opening kind of scary, but
We're checking out, okay. Well, let's do just that
Let's get a little taste of the geolocation location location
Talk from Hope X again phone number two one two two zero nine two nine five zero pledge of $50 gets you all the talks
On DVD a pledge of 75 gets you all the talks on a 64 gig thumb drive two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
So
So, you know, this is going to be very much focused on in 2014
What are some of the open?
technological legal and policy questions
Related to tracking mobile devices and how does it actually how does it actually work?
So when first of all when we say mobile devices, what are we talking about?
so essentially mobile devices
For our purposes here are computers
That have a couple of special
features that make them particularly interesting from the point of view of tracking and make them particularly important from the point of view of
Protecting or violating your privacy. Um, the first property of a mobile device is that it's mobile
You carry it around with you very often
everywhere
and
You know, the the mobile phone is sort of the classic example of this thing that we're really
You know people
Would sooner leave their house, you know without their keys or their pants than without their phones, right?
These devices have lots of sensors crammed into them
They know a lot about what their environment is in particular these devices themselves
Generally know where they are
they generally have
GPS units they generally have directional sensors like compasses and so on
And they have the capability of
Transmitting signals to the outside world in a number of different ways. They have a cellular phone
Transmitter they often will have data cellular data services. They often have Wi-Fi
They often have Bluetooth and they often have other things that they may that you may or may not even be aware
are existing and then finally mobile devices have this property that
They much more than the computers that we as hackers
sort of grew up learning about
These are much more heavily tied to network based services of various kinds provided by various places
then
other kinds of computing devices that we use these devices are designed to be
Online and not only are they designed to be online?
They're designed to be online in multiple ways in order to to function the way we expect them to function
Now, you know at one end of the spectrum we have old-fashioned
You know dumb mobile phones phones that don't have touch screens that you can't run apps on and so on
And you know these have you know have been kind of upgraded to include more computational capability
smartphones
Tablets and then there's this idea of the internet of things
your car
Likely contains a number of mobile devices very often that have been subscribed to with different services on your behalf
When the car was built and you may not have any direct relationship that you know about with the service provider
That's providing them and it's you know driving around with you everywhere
You go your toaster and your refrigerator and so on will will soon be followed
Although your refrigerator is a little less mobile than than your car is
Right unless it's running. Yes. Very good. Okay. Okay, you get the worst joke of the conference award
Okay
so let's
Let's go to kind of some very oversimplified how phones work kind of a baseline
Understanding the basic cellular technology
So basically your phone handset this device is essentially a fairly low power
Because its battery has to last a long time and there are also you know health maybe health effects from zapping you with high levels
of microwave radiation
So it's inherently a low power device that has a crappy
antenna
Making it effectively an even more low power
two-way radio
That you expect to have universal connectivity pretty much everywhere you go
So to make up for the fact that the range of your mobile phone is inherently very limited. It can only reach
You know, maybe a mile or so under even the most ideal circumstances and in an urban area with lots of obstructions around it
considerably less
than that
The cellular carrier has to build out a network of
Towers which are called cell sites that have
Essentially a connection to the back infrastructure to the telephone network to their network
such that
there are
There is a tower a cell site within range of your phone
Wherever you want to take it and you know the term cellular phone, which is more commonly used in the US in in Europe
They call them mobile phones
But as the term cellular phones comes from the idea that you think of these
Ranges of the towers as cells that are adjacent to each other
Tiled across a map and you're in one particular cell at any time that has the best coverage of your phone
So essentially a mobile phone company is primarily in the real estate business
to rent these tower locations to put their cell sites in and
Your your handset is essentially looking for the cell tower
That's broadcasting a signal and you're also broadcasting a signal and you figure out which of these cell sites is
within
range and which has the best signal coverage where you are at any given moment and
Registers with that that now it has to do that in order to work
It has to do that even when you're not making a phone call because that's the mechanism
That your phone relies on in order to be able to receive calls
We have to know where you are in the network in order to know where to route an incoming call to you
So what this essentially says is that right off the bat?
This device is at least doing some sort of course
tracking of your location
because you
It has to in order to work that way. We know what cell you're in
Because that information has to be recorded with the cellular provider in order to route incoming calls to you
And as you move around you're re-registering with different cells
It's generally the one that's nearest you and that essentially list of registrations
identifies where you are within the
Radio range of your phone. So that's the sort of oversimplified version of this. How many people knew that already?
Well, if I could see anything, I'd imagine everyone's raising their hand right now, right?
This is but I can't see a thing
So I'm just gonna pretend that everybody that there are people in the room
I assume all of you have taken your clothes off or something. I just cannot see a thing up here
Okay
the
So
This is sort of the oversimplified version. So you might say okay
Well, I can live with that, right? The radio range of my phone is maybe a mile
So that means I'm within a one mile radius of this this thing can only track me within about a mile, right?
Because that's you know, the cell companies of course
Want to economize. They're primarily in the real estate business
They want to economize on how many of these expensive towers
They have to put up and and all this expensive space that they have to rent and they're gonna want to get away
With putting as few of those up as they possibly can and what you might say is well
We should put them up so that their distance is essentially the typical radio range of one of these phones
And that's a mile or two apart from each other
And so that's the limit of the resolution of the tracking
That these kinds of devices do as you're registering with the network
But it turns out that now that everyone has one of these things
The radio range is not the limiting factor of how close or how far apart you can get away with having these
if
Because everybody wants one of these
Devices and because the amount of radio spectrum
Allocated to cellular and mobile phone services is inherently a scarce resource
There's a limit to how much of it there is and we're using more of it than there are
users
and
We're demanding more and more high bandwidth services
To take up that limited amount of radio spectrum
The
Capacity of a cell tower is reached
Particularly in any kind of populated area well well before
the
Radio range radius would say you'd have to build another one. So you're going to reach all of the radio spectrum capacity
For a cell tower within a much much smaller the within all the users within a much much smaller
Radius than you would if you were just looking at the radio range and in fact what that means is that
How do you how do you deal with this?
Well, there's we could get more spectrum, but we've kind of reached the limit of that
They keep auctioning off more by trying to steal it away from television stations and public safety users
But you know we can auctions we can't auction off spectrum fast enough to meet the demand. So what do you do?
Well, what do you have to what you have to do is have each of these towers serve fewer users
But everybody wants one. So how do you deal with this?
Well, you put more towers in you make the density of these cell sites
Closer and closer spaced together so that instead of a one-mile radius
It's going to have a small enough radius to be able to serve the users that were that are within range of this
So what effectively this means is that because everyone has one of these things?
you are
Your location that's revealed by pairing with the nearest cell tower
Is is going to be a much higher resolution a much finer grained
resolution than it was
You know 20 years ago when cell phones were this sort of luxury item that that rich rich
Self-important people had now everyone is a rich self-important person and what that means is that we're tracked as a sort of side effect of that
We're tracked with much more high resolution when we do this
And that is an excerpt from the Matt Blaze talk on geolocation
At Hope X that we are making available for people who pledge to WBAI
Tonight Bernie, what do you think of that talk?
You just started getting to the scary part
Then he starts going into how you can be tracked with my Wi-Fi and your Bluetooth headset and otherwise and how all this data is
Compiled and sliced and diced and recorded and logged forever about where you've been and where you go and all that
So it's worth checking out and you can do that by pledging your support to this radio station at the same time
By calling two one two two zero nine two nine five zero and pledging a mere fifty dollars
And you get a stack of a hundred DVDs with this and ninety nine other amazing talks
approximately
Over $75 you can get it all in the palm of your hand on a flash drive, but this is this is a tremendous information value
There's no way you're going to get this much content anywhere else
For this price and support WBAI. So give us a call two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
Oh and our last premiums
They're just going out now, aren't they? I believe so. I believe everything is is pretty much in the hands of the right people
Yeah, I think so. I think so
I believe so. I believe everything is is pretty much in the hands of the right people. Yes. Yes. It has all been delivered. Yes
Bernie you sort of hand wave away at the end of what you just said that
And you support WBAI, but I want to emphasize that this is really all linked
We would not be able to do the conferences without the audience that we build here on WBAI
No other radio station in the world would give the likes of us a radio program on an FM transmitter
In uh in a major city like new york city
To connect with the people we connect with connect with you the audience connect with people like matt blaise
To be able to produce conferences like this to be able to produce talks like the ones you'll get if you call
two one two two zero nine two nine five zero and pledge
And if if we go off the air, it really is
Putting a hamper on this sort of
Activity and so we really want
You to support us to keep us on the air and that is why we thank you with these. Thank you premiums
You mentioned that we're on an fm
Broadcast signal, correct. It's true. We're also in new york city, correct
um, and um
What else did you know on top of the empire state building, right? I didn't say that but okay
All right, i'm just trying to help out here. Was there anything else any other qualifiers you you had there as far as uh,
um major signal
Powerful
Getting lots of all different. Yeah, lots of watts
Okay
What you left out was that we're in the middle of the fm dial and being in the middle of the fm dial means
People expect to find commercial stations there
You might notice there's this ghetto over to the left end of the fm dial where they stick all the non-commercial stations
Everything below 92 is supposed to be non-commercial
um, and somehow we managed to escape and
And live free here in 99.5 where you would expect to hear a country music station or a top 40 station or
Another sports station or something like that, but somehow somehow we managed to hack the airwaves and stay in the middle
Um, it's there's a long story behind it. We've been on the air since 1960
But it's very unusual to have that kind of access to be able to broadcast something to so many people
In a major city, but also in the middle of the fm dial
So it's it's it's something that is so precious and unique and hopefully
Uh will always be prized by our listeners and that's that's the reason why we have to do these things every few years
You know how expensive it is to keep a radio station going to pay the rent on on uh the tower
Uh, and all the other things that are involved in in in maintaining
Uh, let alone expanding what it is that we do. So that's why we ask for your support
2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 50 dollars may not seem like that much
What are you going to solve with 50 dollars?
Well, you know what a bunch of people calling in doing that that suddenly solves some big problems
So your contribution does count it does add up. It's all part of the uh,
The whole jigsaw puzzle 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 50 dollars. You get all the talks on dvd
75 you get all the talks on a 64 gig thumb drive and you can copy them to your heart's content and share them and do
Anything else? Yeah, you mentioned manual. Uh, go ahead bernie and then then rob
I I interrupted about there rob one of the advantages of getting this content
Uh this way either on dvd or on a usb flash drive
If it doesn't take up room on whatever device you're playing it on it on its own physical media. I know people people uh
Laugh at me for having a uh, a physical media fetish, but uh, that's not why they're laughing
Okay
Was that a flash drive in your pocket or anyway the um
The the flash drive is tiny your thumb. You got a hundred videos from talks at the hobex conference. It's amazing stuff
And it doesn't make it up any space on your computer. Yes
So that's why uh, this is a great thing, but you're mainly as mike pointed out you're supporting a radio station
That has unfortunately significant expenses, uh operating an fm transmitter in the middle of a major market on top of the empire state building
Which yeah, that may seem antiquated, but it's it's it's really awesome
They're they're it's it's unequaled by any other, uh, no, no other rate another hacker show
If like there's that many hacker shows have this common audience in a major market
When you say it's antiquated what what's antiquated?
well, a lot of people think that uh, the fm broadcast radio is uh is
Uh an antique
Obsolete medium. Oh, I disagree. They think that hey, well a lot of people think that a lot of people
You can't get it. Uh stream it over the internet and listen to it on your cell phone
Then it's uh, then it's old school. Well, you know what? No, it's real. This is best fidelity
You're going to get the best fidelity ever with an fm radio listening to the station
But you can also hear it streaming. I am not one of those people that think fm radio is obsolete
It's a it's a valued medium
You can drive around listen to it. You can be what it's it's got much more
Potential audience than just uh people that happen to have expensive devices
And there are also there are many ways to listen to our signal and that does include podcasts does include
Listening on your phone and various other devices tune in apps and things like that
But uh that says something that people want to hear what's on the radio and how it gets broadcast
Uh isn't really the issue some people listen over the air some people
Uh listen online
Uh, but to have a radio station that is the physical
Point where you produce all these programs and you have people coming together and sharing their talents and and making one cohesive package
That's on the air 24 hours a day. That's something you don't get very often with uh with podcasts. It's very difficult to have that kind of
Of community. So yeah, there there is some antiquity to it, but there's also some uh, some good old-fashioned quality
Uh that is is really really hard to build from from the ground up
Yeah, and one of my favorite things about this place is the existence of this station is ridiculous. It's a fluke
It's uh, if you if you look into the history of the station how it came to be
It was really just the most random sequence of events that led to that led to its existence
It's a sequence of events that would not be repeated again. This could not happen today
What what brought the station about in the 1960s it would not happen today
And if the station were lost it would not rise again in this form because that you can't do this today
Yeah, you just can't you know what those of you out there who think that radio is antiquated go get a radio station
Then that's so you know
so antiquated and worthless should be easy just go out there and get one and uh
If you're looking for something to do with it
Let us know because we'd love to have an opportunity to have a whole radio station at our disposal also. Yes
Okay, we're broadcasting on fm on fm analog radio, which is a very old technology. It's a reliable technology
But we are also streaming on the web. We are also podcasting
We've been podcasting this show since before people called it podcast. That's right
In fact, we were one of the first podcasts we were someone even thought we might have invented the name
But I checked and we didn't I don't think we invented the name but we were definitely
I mean I was listening to this show on downloaded audio files since before the general public knew what a downloaded audio file was
Real audio loving it. It was real audio. Remember that it was real audio. Yes, if we had invented the name
We would have given it a better name. Yeah, I would like to think that I would like to think we did
But i'm pretty sure we didn't
But yeah, so, uh, there are many different ways that you can receive a signal
uh, but uh
The magic of radio you never really know how many people are out there. It's different with um with online
You can actually see how many people are out there. Sometimes you can see a lot about them
Uh, and it can be controlled a lot more easily, too
You know, there aren't many people in north korea that are tapping into online
Broadcast from different countries, but there are people that sneak radios in and can hear via shortwave or fm or am
Things they're not supposed to hear and that's a that's a freedom that
You always have with radio the freedom of being anonymous being passive
Being able to listen under the covers late at night when your parents tell you to go to bed
Uh, you know, it's harder to do that with a computer
All right. Uh, hey, uh bernie. Um, what does the name thomas drake mean to you?
Wow, he is one of my heroes he
worked for the national security agency and he had a conscience and he saw some things that were that were
going wrong illegal things
And he was a whistleblower at the nsa
And guess what happened to him instead of uh rewarding him or finding these problems nsa
they
Persecuted him and prosecuted him and
Tried to destroy his life and his story was told at
Uh hope x by the way, tom drake is one of the people that inspired edward snowden
To go the route. He did ed snowden realized, uh
That thomas drake and bill binney another one of the previous hope speak a previous hope speaker
Um when they went the official route and became a whistleblower and went to proper through proper channels
They got crucified
So ed snowden said, you know, that doesn't work that model doesn't work and he did it the way he had to do it
Yeah, and a lot of people, uh know that edward snowden was one of our keynote speakers at hope x
In fact, you'll get his talk in addition to daniel ellsberg's talk
Uh when you pledge for this package, but um, not as many people know about thomas drake and that's a shame because his talk
It's actually uh an interview, uh with vivian weisman who uh, who made the documentary the hacker wars
Uh, it's so incredible kyle you were playing this the other day and I was just overhearing it and I you know
I I never got a chance to watch the whole thing, but I could not believe how compelling it was
I didn't even realize it was our own conference. It was wow
This this looks like something that you know
You'd see on uh on hbo or something like that and it was just really really riveting
He tells some stories here that uh that I think would uh inspire many people let alone
edward snowden
Yeah, it's another angle another perspective of a lot of the stories and and uh reporting that's gone on in the last couple years
And it's sort of one of those things that you hear that you hear and you you realize wow
okay, so now this other person is is uh enlightening us on on what's going on with communications and so on and uh,
It adds sort of
Definitely, um is emblematic of the the plot thickening so to speak
Well thomas drake, uh is a decorated u.s. Air force and u.s. Navy veteran
He was a senior executive and technical director for nsa software engineering and implementation and that's where he discovered and blew the whistle
on massive multi-billion dollar fraud waste and abuse
The failures that led to 9-11 the widespread violations of citizens rights through secret mass surveillance programs after 9-11
And uh after years of addressing those issues in vain through official channels
He finally went to the press and soon became the first whistleblower since daniel ellsberg in 1971 to be charged with espionage
Well, the whole story is is pretty much. Uh, um
Given in the talk. I don't want to spoil
The whole thing but we will play a little bit of an excerpt at least it wasn't martial law, of course
Uh, no, no, you can always be thankful for that but for this time
Yeah, I like to think though that uh, this is a guy that inspired edward snowden
Uh, and and who knows how many others that every time somebody hears a talk like this every time somebody uh, um
sees what what a person with courage does
Um, it inspires more people to do the same thing and we have more whistleblowers than ever
What a great idea to uh pledge for this premium and send it to your friend who works for the government
There you go
and if you get the the thumb drive you can you can send it to everybody who works in the government because you can make
All kinds of copies and just keep uh sending it out. This deserves to be seen by many people
And uh and and spread around and that's what i'm hoping we accomplish tonight
Getting these uh dvds and getting these thumb drives out
As well as getting some much needed funds for the radio station 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 all
100 or so dvds will come your way
If uh, if if you pledge 50 and you'll get a 64 gig thumb drive if you pledge 75
2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 let's uh, hear a con a little bit of a conversation with nsa whistleblower
Thomas drake from the hope x conference
And it's important to note that my moment of truth was actually the first week in october of 2001
Now this is barely three weeks after 9 11. I confronted the lead attorney at nsa. He actually showed up in the
recent frontline
Documentary called the united states of secrets
And he said you don't understand. Mr. Drake
This is after he acknowledged that the white house had approved what they called the program the president's surveillance program
It was always called the program
So you understand we just need the data
We just need the data
And see when he said that I was thrown back to a period in my other life
My other day job
When I was a crypto linguist flying an rc-135 during the cold war in the european theater
And what country did I become an expert in what country did I spend many many years listening in?
on their communications east germany
It was just a very surreal moment because now i'm realizing that on a far vaster scale
That my own government is now deciding that in the interest of national security
We're just going to collect it all we need to know everything there is to know about anybody at any time anywhere
And we have the platform to do it. That's what's called internet
And all the telephone all the telephone systems
To what end to what end is the security surveillance state it's ultimately about social control
let no one be naive to believe that
Somehow there's a morality in collecting all this information and it won't be used for other purposes
And that's precisely what the government is doing
And if anyone stands up to the power structure like a hacktivist or a whistleblower
they don't just
Indict you they try to destroy you
This is what they try to do to you
Yeah, it's
What does it mean to have your life destroyed?
Okay, just imagine
each of you as sovereign human beings coming under
The purview of the government as a person of interest and then becoming a target of the government
The government has decided you're an enemy of the state
And imagine that they have the highest power microscope a digital microscope and they spend four years drilling down into your life
Everything there is to know about you. What will they find out?
And how could they use it against you? How could they manipulate?
Facts, let's say facts about your life
Especially when they want to punish you especially when they want to put you away as I was
See, I faced
a certain reality
When the original chief prosecutor came to me in april 2008 before I actually resigned from NSA
And he said mr. Drake, how would you like to spend the rest of your life in prison?
Unless you cooperate with our investigation
This is how far the government was willing to go to protect
national secrets
There was no way they were going to let someone like me and others but at that time I was the target
the target of their
Of their multi-year multi-million dollar investigation in terms of who had leaked information about the stellar wind program
to the new york times james rise and eric liffblau
And they were hell-bent to punish somebody I found out from very deep sources with within the government
That cheney had issued a direct
Edict find and fry the perpetrators. I don't care who they are make an object lesson of them burn them
and so
When you're on the receiving end of the government with all the powers they have in terms of surveillance
And the fbi they can make life extraordinarily difficult. And so I was I was made a person of interest in 2006
And I experienced severe electronic surveillance and physical surveillance. I ultimately had fbi
Agents tailing me no matter where I went
Just to make sure I would they kept track of me
What can I tell you I mean it's
I don't think and I keep talking about this in public and every time I tell the story people
Start to appreciate what it's like the government decides to destroy you
Um, it's not it's not
Look, I listen in on east german state. I was very familiar with astazi and and the police state and what they did to isolate
and
And fragment people's lives, okay listening in on the lives of others literally where they had the entire telephone system
designed for surveillance
That's precisely what's happened in this country
I have um another clip which is uh,
Three hacktivists that were targeted and they've tried to destroy them as well
And I think that we'll go back and forth between your story and the story of the hacktivists because I think
We found a lot of analogous situations. Look you don't speak truth to power
You know, you don't poke the bear in the eye with a stick, right
You don't hold up a mirror and expose government criminality
Okay government criminality without them reacting to it
Um, and so yeah, I found myself behind several eight balls in 2008
And it took him a couple years and it was the obama administration to figure out how to charge me
under the espionage act
And that was an excerpt from the thomas drake interview that took place
At hopex here in new york city in the year 2014
Powerful stuff. In fact, i'm a little angry that it ended because I want to hear more
But that's all we that's what we brought with us to the station. Uh, however, you can hear the whole thing
um
for a pledge for a pledge of
50 dollars, you know what I think this one talk is worth a pledge of 50 dollars
But you don't get just this one talk you get all of the talks at the hopex conference
Which is about a hundred of them and they're all pretty damn good if I do say so myself
they we we pick some real, uh,
uh amazing speakers and and and material, uh to cover
Um again two one two two zero nine two nine five zero pledge of fifty dollars
You'll get a hundred dvds about a hundred dvds and a pledge of seventy five dollars
You'll get the full video files on a 64 gig thumb drive again two one two
two zero nine two nine five zero ask for the
Hope archives thumb drive or the hope archives dvd set
Um amazing stuff, you know going to hacker conferences for as long as I have
I've seen the growth i've seen how things have changed over the decades
And how yeah, we used to just talk about breaking into computers and mischief and things like that and then security holes and and and
Various other things but it's grown so much. There is so much material to cover to have somebody
Uh, like thomas drake come to our conference and tell his story. It simply
Blows me away to say nothing of edward snowden and daniel ellsberg names like this, but then at the same time we also have
uh people who are just breaking into no pun intended breaking into the world of of hacking and
Figuring things out in ways. Nobody else has done
that's why you might see a talk by a 13 year old followed by a talk by a college professor and then by
Somebody who used to work for the government, etc
It's it's that diverse that interesting that vibrant and that's why our audience is is so
So interesting as well. 212-209-2950 bernie, uh, bring back memories
Scary memories. I uh, I was there. I listened to tom talk
I talked with him several times on the phone before he came to hope because he was uh
Gracious enough to come all the way up from the washington area where he lives
To speak because he thought this was a really important conference to present his story to
Uh, just like edward snowden did just like bill binnie did just like so many other people who came to hope
To share important information that they knew there weren't a lot of other venues that would that would honor and host
This kind of uh valuable information. So if you think this information is valuable, um
Please check it out and support this radio station. Give us a call at 212
209-2950 support the radio station, uh support what we're trying to do is bringing
Uh this kind of information to you and everybody else and uh, give it a hand because if you don't if nobody else does
We're not going to be able to do it anymore because this venue is just going to disappear
Absolutely, and you know, it does my heart good and I think a lot of people as well
To see a talk like this and to see the young people getting interested in it because they will never hear that story anyplace else
It's not going to be on the mass media. It's not going to be in the newspaper
Except uh in a very distorted and unfair way this way you get to actually
hear
a first person account you get to ask questions you get to actually
Uh experience something that you'll remember for the rest of your life now
We're talking about dvds and and thumb drives right now, but the conferences take place every couple of years
We have another one coming up in july. In fact, if people want to submit
Uh talk ideas we we have our call for participation open right now
If you go to hope.net, you'll see all the information that we have up currently
and if you email speakers at hope.net with your your um information on what you want to talk about and
What you've uh what your expertise is and and various other things like that you might find yourself
Being played on wbai in a couple of years with all kinds of people
just basically
And and raptured listening listening to what's coming out over the speakers
Saying wow, this is amazing. This is something that I never thought was possible
And it's inspirational and we just we'll see the community continue to grow and continue to uh to mature in all sorts of different ways
Yeah, um, just mentioning really quick at the beginning of our second hour here
If you if you've tuned in for our friends at the personal computer show, they have the week off
But they will be back next week. This is off the hook and we are broadcasting on wbai new york 99.5
FM and we are presenting material from our hope conference our biannual hacker conference and uh our
Our our basically our pride and joy where all sorts of awesome stuff happens
Some of which you will uh, you will hear you will hear some bits and pieces of now
I've been i've been going to the hope conference since 2000. Hope 2k was my first one and uh,
I have been i've been uh, you know the 16 years i've been going to the conference
I've been part of uh making the conference happen for maybe half that
And I it it blew me away when I went to my first one
It blew me away again when I went to my second one
Every single one has been better than the ones preceding it and hope x is the best conference. I think we've ever done
It amazed me in so many ways while it was going on. It still does and
The fact that you can still experience the the talks that were presented at at the conference
On a on a really convenient video format either dvds or a thumb drive. Um, no insulting drm. Nothing stupid like that
Um, but uh, but just something that you could watch on your device of choice in your software of choice
And uh and get a taste of what happened
It's it's a really amazing thing to me that that people can do this because the conference itself is such a special thing
And it uh, it really it really bears uh revisiting whether you're there or not
So if you call 212-209-2950 or if you go to givetowbai.org
And uh and scare up some of these hope uh hope panels
You will um, you will get to
Relive that if you were there, um experience of the for the first time if you didn't and
See what we're going on about and why we're so excited about hope 11 coming up in july
The 11th hope rob the 11th. Hope don't call it. Hope 11. We don't just put a number after our conference
Sorry, don't hit everyone is a different, uh concept a different name a different, uh set of artwork and all that
Uh 212-209-2950. Yes. Uh, everything rob said is is true. Um, and um
And this is something that I think we can all
Share in as far as just um hearing what's being said learning
And coming with ideas for ways to do it better in the future
So hopefully the next conference in july will be even better
Uh, and you know the one that took place in 2014 was great not just because we had edward snowden
But because we had so many other people as well
And we could have I think the conference would have been great
Even if we didn't have edward snowden or daniel ellsberg or people like that because there are just so many interesting ideas and demonstrations
Uh that uh that we we get at these things
So, um, we are going to play an excerpt of edward snowden just to prove that he was actually why wasn't there?
He was he that this is the only time that we uh would do a video. Um, um,
Presentation because obviously he couldn't travel outside of russia to be with us
But um, I don't think anybody complained
I mean so the talk with edward snowden is not just a talk by edward snowden
which would be special enough, but a conversation between edward snowden and daniel ellsberg to
Very distinct generations of whistleblowers sort of wondering between each other why there was no whistleblowers
in the generation between but uh
Talking about their similarities their differences and a really fascinating bit of history was made at hope and that is just one
of the hundred
Talks you will get if you call two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
If you don't like talking on the phone, you can go to give to wbai.org. That's the numeral two and pledge there
And and get these amazing premiums and keep this radio station on the air
Keep this program on the air keep these conferences coming so that we have more talks to offer you in the future
It's there's no reason not to do it
Yeah, and I know people aren't happy when we have to go on the air and ask for money
But would you rather we had commercials because if we had commercials, well, that's the other way radio stations
Uh stay on the air and pay all the bills and believe me
You know
We have a lot of bills to pay but it's nothing compared to what a commercial station occupying the same frequency
Would be paying as far as paying all the people on the air and and various other things as well
Uh, so these are necessary expenses that absolutely need to be made. It's worth it
212 209 2950
And and the the station itself has had to scale back a little bit in the last couple years with the move and and various
other
bits of of turmoil
uh, but the the the staff themselves the the management are really doing a tremendous job under the circumstances
and uh, i'll echo what I know bernie has said and I know he feels deeply that um,
People work incredibly hard here and uh, it is a truly unique community behind the scenes that that makes all of this technically possible
And uh fosters this kind of communication
and um and uh information transfer that uh, we've all said that we've said is is so crucial to to what uh,
What we get out of it as well as what um the the community and discussions around some of these issues, uh get
um as far as building and uh, and um
and uh evolving the discussion
You know so little of the audio that you hear, uh on the internet is truly commercial free
You get stuff and there's some really great stuff that I listen to
Where they ask their listeners to donate and some to which I have donated and then they play a sponsor announcement and the sponsor
is often um
You know an internet infrastructure provider of some sort who if they were our sponsor, we could never criticize on the air
um
It would really limit our freedom of speech, which is why we choose
Not to do that, which is why we stay within the tradition of the pacifica tradition, which has been going for 50 years
Our only sponsors are you the listeners and that's why we need you to call 212-209-2950
Or go to give2wbi.org and show your support not not to put you on the spot mike, but uh,
What what can you name one of the sponsors just one of the I I can should I?
There's there's companies like squarespace and mail chimp square chase
Sucks mail chimp mail chimp sucks. They're awful. Terrible. Yeah, you can say that here
Yeah
I have no idea what those things do and you don't have to learn say it
If you if we were like one of the other places that takes the money and if you listen
To a lot of podcasts, there's only like five other companies that sponsor podcasts
and so we would not have a wide variety of
Of options to choose from you would hear us talking about the wonders of those two companies because it would be required
If we were to take their money mail chimp is a silly name. Yeah, actually
They've helped us in the past and it is silly but uh, you know, they'd probably be okay with us making fun of their name
Well, let's hope so they they uh
Have participated in hope in the past. Oh, have they what yeah, okay fine
but we can still say things, uh, unlike other radio stations where you know, if at&t sponsors you you can't
Ever do a story about at&t or criticize them or anything like that
But we can say, you know, it's it's independent thinkers. We're we're people we're not forced to
Pick aside because our our hands are tied
uh
By accepting funds and so on and so forth
Uh this this program is is built on being able to be objective and and uh speak freely about this stuff
And and if someone we think is wonderful today turns out to do something evil tomorrow
We can talk about that evil without uh without worrying about it because we're we're able to we're able to be honest here
And that's a really valuable thing
Um there this is really all we do to keep the station alive
You the listeners are the only thing that has kept us on the air for over 50 years. Um,
No, no sponsorships. No, uh, you know
Piles of uh free money sitting somewhere
No, it's it's all been people who care about this station who listen to this station who want to become part of what goes on
at this station
Um putting in what they can to help this station continue
Um, and by calling 212-209-2950 or by going to give to wbai.org
You can become part of what's going on here and uh and help keep us
Doing what we do and uh what we think is important and what we have done for for such a long time
People are asking why we're playing north korean music
We're going to tell you we said we'd tell you and we'll tell you in a little bit
But first we we have to play another excerpt
Um, this is uh from the edward snowden talk the daniel ellsberg slash edward snowden talk from help x
Uh, this is just one of about 100 talks that you'll get if you pledge to 212-209-2950
50 for the dvds
$75 for the thumb drive and here's edward snowden
Okay, so um
I know there were some of you who felt you didn't applaud enough for daniel's amazing speech. Here he is again
I also would like to introduce trevor tim from the freedom of the press foundation founder of the freedom of the press foundation
He's going to be here
today
He will have selected some questions from twitter that um that you guys have submitted
And I guess this is a good time to remind people on the press. It's not a press conference
So the questions we're going to ask edward later
Come from our attendees and hopefully there'll be questions that you're interested in as well
Um, please just follow our our guidelines and everything will be cool
Um, and that's um, oh, yeah, so I almost forgot we have a third
Panelist who will be joining us
from russia one of uh, one of
My real heroes and I think many people in this room many people in the hacker community many people in america
Edward snowden welcome
Foreign
I'm hoping we can help them pad out the indictment tonight
So i'm having a little bit of trouble here in the stage, but I think I can hear dan's microphone I want to start out
by saying
To dan ellsberg. Thank you
For everything you've done for all of your service both
In the government and outside of the government everything you did for us as a nation as a society
You have given us you have given so many so much and told us the truth
About what our government was doing at a time when the truth was very hard to get
And I have to say I actually uh, I watched a documentary about your life as I was grappling with these issues myself
And it uh, it had a deep impact and really shaped my thinking so thank you for everything you've done
Thank you
Ed uh
I see you've shaved since I last saw you
I I have to tell you you didn't have to do that for this audience
Well, luckily i've i've got plenty of black t-shirts, but I do not have keith alexander brand dad jeans
I'll save this for defcon
So, uh
I'm going to try to stay largely out of the way and let these guys talk, but I think there's a few topics that
We'd like to cover and uh to start with I was hoping uh, dan could describe
Um what it felt like the first time he heard about edward snowden
His feelings on
Um his feelings
on
Hearing his name and seeing what he had
given the world and if his feelings have changed since and how he's he's grown to
Um feel about edward snowden
I can tell you exactly what I felt
hope
Uh, actually which had not been in great supply for me recently when I saw this
Uh name of this conference. I had mixed feelings about it
uh, my my feelings of
Hope go up and down a little and they haven't been too high and there's no question. Uh, I felt that
when uh when chelsea manning
was revealed I used to
You know, I used to ask in a way how how often do you need a pentagon papers, which is a massive
disclosure
That is unequivocal of documents
That really shows you know, one document doesn't do it as as ed knows
And mandarin they can say well we changed that
The next day that was just some particular
Uh little department some low-level person origin invaded that or something
So what you really need is a massive stuff as in the pentagon papers
That shows no
This is what they said the next day and the day after that and here was the official policy and so forth
And I waited 40 years
To hear that and so I was pretty much losing hope that there would be anybody inside
Who was willing
To risk his freedom
His life or her
Life and freedom to put out what needed to be put out
Because uh, if you put out a lot of stuff and I want to get into this with you ed
It's uh, technically you have to be something of a specialist to put out a lot of stuff
um and not be identified
so
I was feeling not hopeful that would come and then just three years after manning comes snowden. So there's no question
I thought it is possible
and uh
and in fact
Uh ed you once told me that
Uh, you hoped among other things to show
That one could do this
and be successful
And i'd be interested to hear actually from you what your measure
There's no question in my mind you have been successful
But what you had in mind when you wanted to show that people could do this because after all you are out of the country
Etc
Well, so there there's a lot of things to address there, I mean that that's a big topic
but you said something that I want to respond to uh first which was
You kind of touched on technology. You talked about how people recently are are
Specialists, they're able to use specialist skills to gather information
That's tremendously important to the public
But we've been denied access to it and they're able to publish that and get it around the world
Before anyone's able to stop it before they're able to kill the story and before they're able to basically
Shut the public out of the room of government, you know, they sort of divorce us from our democracy
and
the key for me there
is that
uh
Technology empowers dissent. This is something we've seen again and again and people forget this because they think about it only in modern times
They only think about it the recent examples. They think about me. They think about manning
They think about other people who followed in the same sort of thread, but they forget that technology actually enabled you
People forget about the fact that you were, you know in a in a garage with a xerox machine
You know a copy machine might not seem like a killer app to a lot of people
But that enabled you to get this back to the public and the same xerox machine that gave you that
Gave us samizdat in the the former soviet bloc
and
What that tells me and what I think is important for our society and I don't just mean in the united states
I mean around the world is to recognize that
Technology empowers individuals. It empowers voices. It empowers democracy in a way that can turn one man into a movement
or a woman into a world power and that has fundamentally changed the way that we relate to our government and
More importantly the way our government relates to us
You know, they say when people fear the government
But when the government fears people we have democracy we have liberty we have freedom
And I think that's very true and we see that more and more when the government has been left sort of in the dark
Even when we have whistleblowers who come up and stand at a great risk to bring things to the public
people like
Bill binnie thomas drake
ed lumas
Who end up getting you know, these guys get pulled out of the shower naked at gunpoint in front of the families
Their lives are destroyed. Their careers are destroyed. They're discredited. You know, they're they said they're disgruntled
There's these these broad campaigns brought against them, but they didn't have hard evidence
They did everything right. They went through the system and the system destroyed the system buried and we see this happen again and again
Something very important happened today. A lot of people haven't seen it yet in the washington post. There's an opinion article
By a former state department official who has basically said
He's bound by classification. He had to get the the article screened by the government
To redact any classified information before he could publish it, but the washington post ran it and he basically said
Executive order 12333, which is one of the signals intelligence authorities
Which allows the united states to intercept basically communications that are occurring overseas is being used
to collect
Incredible amounts of communications not just on people around the world not just innocents everywhere
But specifically on americans, which is precisely what the united states government has said. They are not doing
And this is this is the kind of thing that's that's illustrative because
What he revealed was explosive should be on the front page of every newspaper
But instead it's an opinion article on one newspaper because there's not clear irrefutable evidence
That brings the president to the podium that brings the congress to you know
The the press and says we have to have a national conversation
Where the public is given back its seat at the table of government and we as a society
Are given the opportunity to decide where the lines should be drawn not a few officials, uh sitting behind closed doors
and I think that is
A new power that technology has given us over the last hundred years
That is increasing in frequency strength magnitude and if we pair that with
With a responsibility to use it appropriately to
Police ourselves the way our technology grows and not sleepwalk into new protocols into new usages
Into new applications for these things, but we really think about the implications
Of putting you know our fids in our in our sneakers and our washing machines and the things we buy at the grocery store
We will have not
a dystopian future, but we will have
A democracy in which citizens around the world in every country are empowered
regardless of the policies of their government and we at the very minimum
We'll know the truth of our world and the truth of our governments and it will not be able to be hidden from us anymore
Thank you
And that was an excerpt from the edward snowden talk at this is not at the hopex conference
This is north korea music that we're playing for a reason
um, but that is just one of 100 talks that you will get if you pledge to 212 209 2950, you'll see the rest of the
Conversation between daniel ellsberg and edward snowden fascinating stuff
It's it's truly amazing the kinds of um of talks that we had at this conference
But we are donating this to the radio station so that the radio station can keep going and keep broadcasting material
Like this whether it's through our show or through all kinds of other programs that air during the week here
212 209 2950
Again, 50 you'll get all the dvds about 100 dvds for 75
You'll get all the videos on a 64 gig thumb drive. What do you guys think of that talk?
I like I like the last uh, the phrase he used let's let's not sleepwalk into new technologies
I think that's something that we echo a lot on this program
He said it so much more eloquently than than i've said it
But uh, that's that's kind of how I feel people are sleepwalking into new technology blindly accepting things and and being the victims
And and leaving it to experts the the people that know and and and so on and not questioning that stuff
You could become one of the experts if you listen to all the talks
Yeah, well you can watch all the talks their videos so you'll see things that we can't possibly show you here
Uh, but yeah, you know on all different subject matter
I mean think about the diversity that is represented in a conference this size
And you'll get it all 212 209 2950 and it is really diverse
I mean, we've we've only got time to play you the smallest fraction of the material here and the people that were
That were speaking but uh, I actually have the hopex speakers list in my hand right now
And just this this amazing group of people that's such a such an eclectic list
There are there are all sorts of um, you know, there are big names like daniel ellsberg and edward snowden
but um
There are names that uh people who are of a certain level of nerdiness consider big names people
Like becky stern eva galper and uh, you know other other people
Uh chris segoyan, but uh, but there are also so many people who are just from all walks of life
Who maybe aren't as well known but whose work is no less important. There's all these artists professors academics lawyers activists
purely
unorganizable people
um, just presenting on such a such a wide range of topics and uh, and
Interests and fields that it's just fascinating. We've got lock pickers. We've got uh, we've got you know
Uh community organizers and managers and patent attorneys and uh, just all these different types of people
Uh presenting at uh, you know
You you only find this group together at something like hope and uh, you'll only get this group together in one package
By calling 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 or by going gifted to give to wbai.org
We won't lie. Yeah, we won't lie
It's you know
Nothing compares to being there and being able to actually interact with all these people and see the connections that are being made
But this is the closest you can get to being there without being there and obviously it can't be there. It happened two years ago
but uh
All the talks that were presented in three different tracks over three days
That's uh, you'll get a pretty good sense as to what the conference is all about and uh,
Maybe you'll make it to the next one
I mean frankly to get the full experience you need both you need to have been there which either you were or you weren't
At this point and you need the talks because there there's three simultaneous talks going on
Even if you're there and do nothing but attend talks you missed two-thirds of it
Uh, so you can catch up on the other two-thirds or more likely more than that
If you call 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 or go to give to wbai.org
And get all the talks that you missed if you were there or all the you missed all the talks if you weren't there
and uh
You know get as close to the full experience as you can
bernie your thoughts
uh
that hope
Talk opex talk with a daniel. Uh, it wasn't one talk
It was it was a it was a conversation between a daniel ellsberg and ed snowden was one of the most inspiring things i've ever heard
um
And I know we were getting off the topic about why do we need to support this?
This station, but frankly no other radio station in new york or anywhere else
I know of is going to be broadcasting this kind of material
It's uh, it's critical to our way of life our uh, our democracy
um
our society if you value
uh your privacy and your independence, um
you'd be aware of what's going on with our our government and corporations and
As ed snowden says don't blindly walk
Into uh accepting new technology to paraphrase him. I just want to urge all of our listeners to support this kind of material
Being widely distributed on on the air and elsewhere to call and support this radio station wbai
um by calling two one two two zero nine
Two nine five zero fifty dollars you get a stack of 100 dvds or if you want it on a usb flash drive
It's 75 dollars if you want to just support this without the premiums
Pledge any amount you want just call that number two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
This is a worthwhile cause it's a non-profit station. You get a tax
deduction
But most important, um, you're helping a community stay informed two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
I'd just like to point out, you know the number of things maybe you could count number of things that we do here
At this particular radio station on this particular show
That you wouldn't be able to do in other places. I mean we're airing this content for one thing
We're talking about these controversial topics
And and hearing things that you simply do not hear in the mass media for for reasons of their own
Uh, we're talking about security issues that are inconvenient to the establishment to various corporations
I even
Said a couple of corporations. I don't even know suck before you couldn't do that on a commercial station
Hey, we're playing north korean music underneath us for god's sake all these things that we're doing that would not be allowed in any other
environment
Uh, I think that's worth supporting that's something that's worth acknowledging and supporting. So yeah, we do have to ask for your support occasionally
It's what keeps this kind of thing going and and the line of thinking between what we do at the conference and what we do
Here at the radio station. It's very similar
It's open to all kinds of different views all kinds of diversity and education
And if you support that kind of thing, you should consider giving us a call and supporting the radio station two one two
Two zero nine two nine five zero we have just under a half an hour left
Oh my god in this special, uh two hour off the hook and uh, this is um
This is not actually the end. I think we have one more clip a couple more clips. Okay, we're gonna have to move. Yeah
uh, but uh, just to reiterate that uh, this this station itself and uh, and our program, uh,
they give you these these kinds of um
Ideas and stuff as soon as we hear about we work very hard
uh to curate the content for the for the event and to bring you news and information from the hacker community and
very often you'll hear a really comprehensive talk like this well before other people have uh, sort of explored it and uh,
and I I don't want to uh,
Be a loop here saying that that we've uh that we've covered some of these things very early on
But it is it is true that that uh, we we've sort of almost been touching on a lot of these things
sometimes they uh, they come back around as far as popularity or or uh mention and uh, it it's uh,
it's very it's very often the case you'll hear something on one of these sets or uh,
shows that you've um, you've heard in years past and um, and we're happy to do that work but um,
Part of making that possible is is keeping the station on the air and keeping this program on the air
And your call now will be a vote for uh, both those things this program and wbai
212-209-2950. Hey, i'm going to say, uh, i'd like to change gears a little bit here, uh, and and do something in a different direction
But just as much in the hacker community as what we've been doing before i'm going to say a name
And uh, i'm going to watch how you guys react to the name
johannes grensferther
Did you pronounce that? I don't think I pronounce it. Is the delay turned on? Can you pronounce it better mike? No, I can't
All right. Well, maybe bernie. Can you pronounce johannes's last name?
I can't pronounce it either but he's a great guy. I love him
That's just one of many ways that he stumps us. Uh, but he uh, he does the most amazing talks at our conferences
Uh, and uh, it's completely different than anything you've heard so far
But it just goes to show the diversity in our community and just the amazing talent
Uh, he's just made a film in fact that he's going to be playing at uh at hope the 11th hope uh in july
And um all kinds of other surprises i'm sure but i'll read you the uh, the abstract from uh from his talk
I can't say the title
Even the title contains a word that I can't say over the radio. That's just you know, one of the sacrifices we have to make
Uh, but johannes of our tech group monochrome will indulge in a public rant
About hacker culture and why it has to be saved from itself expect strong language
Indecency and valid critique of the status quo of hack them
And in parentheses it says no wonder his 2008 google tech talk got censored and never made it onto google's youtube channel
Yeah, you can't find that i've looked
All right. Well, hopefully I got all the obscenities out of uh, uh
With the little funny noises that we have to make instead again
212-209-2950. Let's hear a little bit of johannes's talk
Okay, so
uh
So the first thing I see going on going on going on and especially in the last couple of years
hacker culture is
interestingly
Dominated, um, not let's not call it dominated but obsessed obsessed with one thing and it's martyrdom
martyrdom martyrdom martyrdom
And martyrdom in a strange combination with stardom
There are people I mean you pretty much saw it yesterday with snowden
Everyone was cramming their stupid bodies into this tiny little room over there
To see a virtual presentation of a guy who said the same things that he says all the time and you know
Yeah, but it's snowden. It's snowden. He's snow
Snowden I love you
Make me a child really it's
Really
That guy is nice. He did great things
But no one in the entire world deserves so much attention really no one. Yeah, uh, and i'm not saying that
Uh, because I mean I don't even know snowden. Yeah, I like what he did the main problem with that kind of discourse
If you have really complex problems in our world like the stuff with the nsa like other stuff like other stuff
Uh, we tend as human people
to personify discourse
And that's what's most of the time not good for the discourse
It's not good for talking about things by talking about people who talk about things
Because you end up talking about the people and the people are unimportant really they are snowden is not important
What snowden did is important and what it cost but snowden is not michael jackson
And no one should be michael jackson really no one
Because you see what happened to michael jackson he killed himself. Yes
Uh, the same is true for assange. I think that assange is one of the biggest assholes I know
He did some really great things. Yes, he did but at one point that should have just like stepped off the stage
He should just have gone away and leave the project to itself and the other people running it
And just take his stupid face out of the equation. Yeah, he should have done that. Yeah
I have never met assange
But I have a strange reaction to him appearing everywhere and everyone talking about him. The guy is a guy
It's like i'm not hating him. Not really. No, he's a guy who did something really important
Uh, but the problem was that the importance of the person assange suddenly became bigger than wiki leaks and it
Actually killed wiki leaks and that's the biggest sin that was committed in this whole process
Of course the media part of that the media want to personify discourse
They want to have the face of assange and talk about assange. They don't want to talk about wiki leaks
They want to talk about assange. They don't want to talk about the nsa. They want to talk about snowden
They don't want to talk about crypto leaks. They want to talk about apple bomb
Uh, that's what they want to do and I like jake applebaum, but apple bomics really, yeah
He's a good friend of mine. I mean he was so big when I first met him. He's like
Nice guy. Yeah, but no no no no because there is something weird going on in our brains
if too many people are running after a person and saying jake
It's so great. You're
Jake is not christ. Yeah, but some people think that he's christ
They're almost praying to him and that's where the whole martyrdom comes in
Martyrdom is something that people really like they like to be the martyrs
They like to be the ones who have the feeling it's kind of like an exchange. Uh, like it's a strange economy
It's like i'm the martyr. I do all the wonderful things
I get kicked I get by the fbi and whoever else but i'm doing it for you
I'm doing it for you. I'm your martyr and I want to be loved by you. Yeah, and that strange dynamic
Is going on all the time everywhere and it has to be stopped and it can only be stopped by not running after those people
It's not giving them this like the whole the whole idea of the yes, man is so interestingly contrived
Because the biggest yes men are the followers of the yes, man
It's almost ironic, yeah, and the same thing is for people who are into
Into dissent. I mean even the website of hope is presenting faces
It's presenting faces of people who we should worship because they did something really great
Yes, they did it. But actually the facts are important what they want to do
The politics is important and not who did that
political thing
uh to a certain extent, I mean, I don't want to go into details here, but
There are many things like that martin luther king day and that kind of stuff
I mean we have an urge to do something. We want to thank someone for doing something really great in the end
Some people know martin luther king, but they don't know what he did
And that's not how it should happen. One second
Okay, so
Uh, we like worshiping we shouldn't
It's a person-centric debate. We discuss the the failures fallacies of people at certain points like assange is the best example
When we should talk about the project itself
Uh, it's a debate about single people when it should be a debate about content and about theory and about themes
Uh, it's actually anti-topic. It's quite easy to
To not reflect on topics when you talk about about people
Dissidents as heroes. It's okay. I mean people do great things and that's that's perfect
But the problems with the very notion of heroism
Is a problem. It's a very I mean i'm using the term now and you probably will misunderstand it because i'm a european leftist
But I don't like liberals
Liberal discourse means that there are certain liberal virtues, you know
There is the hero is a very liberal virtue the hero someone we have to thank for for doing something
The hero is a really crazy narrative because the hero is like a one person and that one person does something really great
Uh, and it's like, you know, like like frodo. Yeah, everyone is talking about frodo. Yeah
Uh, nobody's talking about the other hobbits and and you know
Like a struggle is always a struggle of people and groups and usually not the struggle of one single person
Even the whole discourse about aaron schwartz that is really really super tragic
Is actually a discourse about the whole scene and people who did not support him or supported him or whatever it is
Yeah, of course, it can be transported over the person very tragically, but that's not how it
Should be so the story of the hero the hero narrative is destroying a lot of good stuff out there
the same
Stuff is going on when especially in the us all the debates about I should move around
Yeah, so all the debates in the u.s are factually in the u.s hacker scene are
Am I breaking your necks? Is it okay?
Turn on
Move the chairs if you like you can you can do that. This is okay
Yeah, it's okay. That's that's good. That's good. That's good. She got it. Yes. She got it
Okay, and it is about freedom it's about the wonderful terms we have here freedom and liberty and
Constitution and we the citizens and all that kind of stuff
The main problem is that all those words mean nothing. In fact, they're all bourgeois crap
Uh, what is liberty? What is a freedom? Where is it? What what what does what's what's a constitution?
Can you can someone really explain what the constitution is to me?
The main problem is that we are especially in the hacker scene. We like to point that out
I am a citizen. The nsa is doing bad things against me. I'm a citizen of the u.s
Nobody gives a shit really
It's a state in a capitalist system, that's what it is. Yeah, what do you expect to happen?
Yeah, of course you can say like i'm a citizen
I'm a proud citizen of the u.s. And I don't like what the nsa did to me. Yeah
Yes, I mean, you know like capitalism is 200 years old and everything up ever since
Uh, the very notion of freedom does not exist the very moment I have to earn money to live
Makes me unfree. I'm unfree from the very second that I get born, you know
And
Fighting for something like freedom is almost like fighting for I don't know. What is it? It is a strange term
We want freedom. We want liberty. We want
The upholding of the constitution all that stuff. It's just like that's templates, you know, like don't use those stupid templates
Nobody needs them. Yeah
Talk about the basics talk about what that freedom means to you
And most people that I talk to find out that they actually don't mean what other people mean with freedom
Because I could talk to you and you say a completely different definition of what what he believes is freedom
Then she believes that freedom is yeah
And most discourses especially in the hacker scene are about words and terms and beliefs
And I could guarantee you
half of the people in this room here do not agree with the other half of the room when they talk about terms like liberty and
Freedom and constitution and rights. I'm pretty sure about that. Yeah, so
We have to go back to the basics. It's not just it's not that easy
It's not that easy and sometimes hackers make it very easy for themselves. Okay, so
The next one is that hackers have a strange ignorance towards history
many many many have there
is
Oh
Well, that was another excerpt from the hope x conference our friend yohannes grensfelder from
Austria giving his talk the title we cannot say on the air
But and a lot of words we couldn't broadcast over the air, but you get the words you get everything and and you know
What uh seeing it in video format really adds so much to it and you don't get that obviously on the radio
A pledge of 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 pledge of 50 to that phone number
We'll get you all the dvds from hope x it's about 100 dvds
And uh, wow, it's a lot of uh, a lot of video to watch
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2014
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Yeah, the actual size of the thumb drive is is probably very small. Yes
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You know, I don't understand people are calling the call-in line. I see I see the lines lighting up
No, that's we're not taking phone calls this week
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It's a it's a two-way street here. We support you and it's important that you support us because otherwise this place
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Bernie, what do you think of that talk?
That was a great talk and uh ed snowden's parents were at hope x as well
I talked to this took him to this talk and they loved it
They said that was one of their favorite talks at the whole conference
Great stuff. Johannes was running all around the room dancing like
Like a ball and it everybody loved it
And it was just one of but one of about a hundred talks at hope that you will really enjoy
And if you just get this package of videos from the hope conference, but more importantly
Support this radio station, uh and get it all 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0
Um, that's all I got to say. It was a great talk
I I wanted to disagree with you slightly bernie. Uh, if you get all these talks if you get 100 talks
The odds are there will be one you don't enjoy
Okay, because there's no way we could take the risks
We do and present the kind of stuff that uh, not everyone does enjoy if we try to cater to giving you 100
You know we could give you 100 dvds of like kittens or something and you would enjoy all 100 of them
But you wouldn't grow
Uh, you wouldn't learn there's always that one cat, you know, the one that just doesn't uh, well i'm not gonna get into this anyway
Uh, but so there will be 100 talks and they will all be interesting
But some of them you will disagree with and that is I think what's uh, wonderful, you know
You can disagree with the talk and still like it. I I I that's true. Yeah, but there's gonna be one
You just don't like it's not to you. It's just not interesting to you. It's not uh
Even something you disagree with
Uh, and and that's okay because there will be
50 more that are interesting. It's amazingly like wbai like all the programs we have here
There might be one program you don't like on this radio station
It's quite possible if you listen long enough
You might find one you don't like but there are so many programs that you will like that I maintain
It's worth calling 212-209-2950 and pledging your support. Yeah, and it's worth really uh, really
Um stressing the fact that this is such an eclectic mix of of talks
um
I I am see at the conference which basically means i'm put in a room and and I see the talks that are happening in
That room because it's where i'm it's where i'm working
Um, so i'm seeing talks that I might not have chosen off the list if I if I were just watching
But every talk that i've seen has been fascinating
Has been educational. Um, i've learned things that I didn't know
I didn't know or that I didn't know I was interested in I developed new interests based on random talks that i've seen at hope
And that's because although this is such a wide-ranging eclectic mix of people presenting at the conference
The one thing they all have in common is they're all presenting on something on which they're something of an authority on which they're passionate about
and uh, which they can really apply the hacker speak the spirit to and present it something like hope and
It's it's really amazing to just uh, pick a random talk and and watch it
And if you call 212-209-2950 or go to give to wbai.org get the hope thumb drive or the hope dvds
Um, you will have access to such a library of information
Most of which you had no idea you wanted to know until you know it and on that topic of just um,
Finding a subject and something, you know and presenting on that that leads us
To uh what we've been leading up to all night with all this music. Yes. We had a talk on north korea
Using social engineering and concealed electronic devices to gather information
In the world's most restrictive nation. Let's take a listen to a few minutes of that talk
So it's quite spooky you can't really hear it in this video
But there's just a loud buzz of 60 hertz or it's 50 hertz actually in north korea like I see buzzing sound
Um
And of course, um when you're in there you're expecting to be found and detected at any time
Um on my first trip down we did we did get caught and we're shoot off the floor
What you also do at night when your mind is fill you're drunk and what was of particular interest to me is collecting
intelligence transmissions so both communications between south korean spies that may be in north korea
And north korean messages to north korean spies
both voice
So if you know anything about number stations, um voice data, um morse code and so on
This one here is a
North korean number station. So sending messages to north korean agents. Actually, this wasn't recorded in ponyang
This is recorded in dandong in china, which is a border city
Oh
So the operator is saying, um, which agent the message is for and then they're sending a
sequence of four sets of
numbers
which actually will be used on a
What they call a one-time pad to which the agent will use to decrypt the message
Um
All night
In your hotel room in the young ghetto you hear this dredging might you have to listen carefully here
But this is really really loud when it's the middle of the night and you're trying to sleep
And this is primarily because the north koreans built a great. Um
Thing kind of like a dam. It's called the west sea barrage at the
mouth of the
River and
As a result the river is silted up so they dredge all night 24 hours a day actually
At six o'clock the pa system through ponyang starts playing trance music
This actually originates from speakers at the railway station, but it echoes through the city
The recording this recording was actually made
Um at a hotel called the
Corio hotel middle railway station, but you can actually hear the young gato in the distance as well
This just plays like a kind of like a trance music
Around 7 a.m. Propaganda announcements start through the pa systems
So all of this is recorded just by poking a microphone out of my hotel window
Radio
And then as workers start going to work patriotic working music starts
And because I had um an interest in radio I was also um
Um collecting samples quite a lot of samples hundreds of hours of domestic north korean radio particularly fm radio, which um
Most of the north korean radio I can actually receive by a satellite back in australia
This is a satellite they're using to send it to their transmitters around the country
But fm radio I can't receive in australia. So that was a particular interest to me to actually collect fm radio
On the fm band in ponyang again. Remember how close ponyang is to seoul?
There's a possibility that fm radio from seoul would reach north koreans in ponyang
So they take measures to avoid that happening
um
So this is jamming and as you go across the band
You'll find any signal which is from south korea is being jammed
And then you'll also find their own radio programs
Of course unjammed
So
Most of these fm stations you'll now find um good samples on youtube and so on they
Pretty well all of them if not, all of them have originated from my recordings
As I just share information so it quickly gets out there now north koreans don't know radios as we know them radios
Usually north korea don't have a tuning dial. They're simply a speaker and it's a cable radio
So north koreans are primarily using radio as a way of distributing the signal around the country to cable head ends
This example here is called the third network, which is a speaker on a wall
they're in every house in north korea in every building and
Reports are that you can turn it down but not completely turn it off
It starts around five o'clock in the morning and finishes around 10 p.m
It's a secure network. I don't know of anyone that's ever
Had a
Managed to get a recording out of the country of the third network
So most secure messages for north korean citizens are sent on that network and not through the airwaves
but because north koreans don't have radios and you
You don't expect to come across one inside north korea
One day I was blown away when I walked into a hotel room in a new hotel recently refurbished hotel in hamhung
which is a
A city, which has only just recently opened to foreigners
because
Wow, look, this is exactly what you'd see in every hotel room around the world except not north korea
There's a radio between the beds
Of course, I went there turned on the radio didn't work
But you know when you go around the world and you stay in hotels quite often the radio doesn't work in hotels
So I decided okay. Well, this radio is not working. This is bizarre
I've never seen a radio before in north korea
And how would they let such a subversive type of instrument be available to foreigners
So I spent the night trying to find out why it didn't work
Um, it's not broken they've actually cut the
Transformer windings they've removed the speaker
removed all of the
cables the audio cables
And so quite deliberately they've disabled this radio and yet they've kept it in the room and this is um
In my book I go a fair
Quite deeply into this which is propaganda for visitors
This is an illusion of being connected to the outside world an illusion of normality in a hotel room
But as you can see
That radio is never intended to work and will never work again
In fact the um the following morning I reported at the reception desk that my radio didn't work and they assured me they'll have it
You know, thank you. We'll get it fixed for the next guest
Well, that was a really interesting talk by uh, mark fahey bernie, I know you were instrumental in getting that talk at hope x
Yeah, uh mark. I I met mark at another event and it's like mark
You got to come to hope and he he'd never heard of him. Actually. He had heard of hope
He's a 2600 reader and uh, but he didn't know how amazing hope was. So he's actually coming back to the 11th hope
Um, maybe he'll do another talk
But uh, that was one of the talks that I think more people commented to me about anything about what what what media is like
In north korea, and it's a really interesting study to watch this talk because it shows what can happen
When the government has complete control over all media fascinating, which they don't have here
Fortunately, uh, we're able to broadcast with impunity, but we're out of time
So we have to leave but please call two one two two zero nine two nine five zero
Pledge your support fifty dollars. You'll get all the dvds from hope x seventy five dollars
You'll get a thumb drive filled with all the dvds from hope x
2600 meetings are happening all over the world this friday. Um 2600.com slash meetings
All right, and we will see you in two weeks
Until then, um, have a have a good night
Pledge your support two and two two zero nine two nine five zero give to wbi.org and you can write to us oth
At 2600.com until two weeks from now. It's manual for off the hook. Have a good night
Foreign
Foreign
Foreign
Foreign
Foreign
It's a shame they're not marked better to make the engineers' job a little easier to
find them.
In the meantime, though, why don't we enjoy some wonderful promotional announcements?