talk freely about their lives. We'll also offer a CD of gems from our collection, clips from the 1969
first abortion speak out, Loretta Ross on family planning in the black community, who is behind
the doctored Planned Parenthood videos, the late great Roz Baxendall, and music of the movement.
That's Thursday, November 5th, 9 to 11 p.m. because...
And you're listening to radio station... where am I? WBAI New York. It's 701, maybe 702,
depending on where you are. And that means it's time once again for Off The Hook.
♪♪♪
♪♪♪
It's the two-hour version of off the hook here on WBAI. Emmanuel Goldstein here with you
Joined by Gigi D'Agostino, I think for the whole two hours.
I don't suppose anybody understood what he just said
No, I don't think it would be appropriate to translate. Maybe not. Maybe not. Joined tonight was the voice of Mike over there. Hi
Kyle
Wait a minute. Hold on. I forgot to turn your mic on.
Hello. Yes, four microphones here and Rob P. Firefly. Buongiorno.
And down in
well somewhere
Hang on. I can't figure out which. Why don't we mark the thing that with the phone to say phone?
Which one is it? This one? That's it. I can tell because my voice gets all tinny. I hear it. Bernie
Greetings from Philadelphia. Welcome. Welcome. I heard in the news today that that that
Runaway blimp got away. You hightailed it in your car
on the interstate and
Managed to track it down using GPS and then got a high-powered
Shotgun and was able to bring the thing down in a field
Somewhere in Columbia County. Am I getting that right?
Not exactly. I was looking for it, Emmanuel. It kind of passed near Philadelphia
It was spotted north
Northwest of Philadelphia about about an hour from me and it was it was over
It was about a mile high dragging a 6,000 foot steel cable. This is a this is a military
Aerostat like a like a blimp only it's tethered something called Jaylin Jaylin the joint land-attack cruise missile
Defense elevated netted sensor system. It's supposed to look for cruise missiles. Basically, it's part of this big network
But this one this one escaped and it was floating all the way up from you saw it down in Maryland the other day
Didn't you?
Yes, I thought you had no involvement in it coming. I wonder how I got that wrong. All right, so
What I really would have liked to have done is grab on to that cable and hook a shortwave radio transmitter at 6,000 fire
6,000
Foot long wire antenna and start broadcasting because that signal would have gone global
Yes, yes it would have and and yes, you're right Kyle and I actually
Went down to Washington DC last was it Thursday? Yes
It's kind of cool because we weren't on the air last week
So we were able to sort of just stay up all night and I guess could have done that even if we were on the air
but we took a train down and we
arrived at 7 in the morning and and walked right into the Hillary Clinton hearing and
Afterwards on the way back
You noticed it Kyle, you noticed the blimp up in the air. Yes, mr. Speaker. Yeah, and what did you say when you saw that that that blimp I
Said look, it's a it's a blimp
No, I hate I knew exactly what it was
I knew it was some kind of like surveillance or military blimp because I think we were we reported about these
We've talked about them in and out over the past like a couple years maybe and it's come up
But to really see it in action it was worth
Well, I ran to the front of the train to try to see out the window and I tried to take some pictures of it
But it looks like a white speck
Well, that's loose. That's kind of what it is. It is a white speck, but it was it was weird-looking
We saw it right over Maryland
They have two of these things
So this is a 50% chance the one you saw
Was the one that tried to escape today and I think that's kind of what we were seeing we were seeing yet another
Member of the intelligence community trying to escape and
Leak some secrets and it was heading towards Canada before
Well, I guess Bernie wasn't the one who got to it, but somebody got to it. Somebody brought it down over, Pennsylvania and
Its secrets will not be known I suppose
There's a big it looks like a pregnant blimp on it
And actually the technical name for these is an aerostat which is a tethered blimp and I had this big bulbous thing on the bottom
That had a special radar on it, it wasn't it didn't have a bunch of cameras on it like some surveillance platforms, but
Things
Depends on what you consider a camera. I mean, it's a visualization
Bernie I have an important question
You said this is an aerostat and not a blimp because it is tethered but the whole point
The reason we're discussing it is that it became untethered. So does it then revert to being a blimp? Yeah
That's a very good question. I don't know
You know, it could be called a free aerostat or or a blimp
Well, okay. I'm very ignorant about this
But what the tether is that is that the thing that?
Attached the big cable or does it have to be attached to the ground for it to be tethered? Yes
Yeah, well, yeah the big cable it's supposed to be tied down and because well it had the big cable
It had the big cable throughout that was the problem
The big cable was hitting power lines and about 25,000 people lost power as a result
I was hearing reports on the way in. This is great. We were using the tune-in app and
Listening to this station called W I L K in Wilkes-Barre. Is that a pen? I was aware. Yeah, and it was great. We were listening
980 kilohertz. Okay, and 103.1 FM if you want to be legal about it. We were listening to them talking all about this big
Balloon that came down near them and it was it was really kind of awesome because they knew about it landing
I think about 20 minutes before CNN ever reported that it landed
So that was kind of interesting right there and it's just it's the magic of radio
Especially with the Internet where you can just tune in to where something is happening and listen to it live listen to actually what's actually
Going on. But yeah the thing
Had its it's I think
10,000 foot cable
Stringing along behind it and it was uprooting trees and damaging cars
I'm surprised it didn't hurt people and maybe it did we might not know yet
Trucks hit it on I think I 80 the highway some trucks big trucks hit the cable and then then it went over
high high tension power line and
Shorted out the grid in that area and like you said like about 20,000 people are still out of power from this thing
But we're all really amazed that this happened in the first place
I you know
I saw the bulletin come over and I was like wow
This is going to be an interesting story as as this plays out because how do you bring something like that down?
I still don't know how exactly it came down because supposedly they can stay up for 30 days with the helium they have
Yep. Well, you know as American citizens
I think we should all be used to having power drained from us by large bags of wind from DC
So I think it's all appropriate just another day and the exciting lives that we all lead here in this day and age
We are here tonight though as part of another two hours show as
I think when the concluding shows of the fundraiser the WBA I fundraiser
Excuse me, we are
About to offer some interesting things want to thank people who called in two weeks ago, and we did another two-hour show
Tonight we're offering something completely different and I think maybe we should just sort of plunge into that to start with
What do you guys unless you have some urgent business you'd like to put forward?
There's no more urgent business than keeping us on the air. That's that's true. It is true
I second that well if if if you agree with that and you want to keep us on the air
the way to do that is to call 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 and
Pledge a huge amount of money
Just without even thinking about it that that would that would start off on a good note
But if you want to know what we're offering tonight, we have a couple of items
Both based on our amazing hope conferences that we hold every two years
we have
Had over over the course of a couple of decades now
Some of the most amazing people speaking as keynotes at our conferences
And what we're offering tonight is your choice of either a DVD collection
and that's a bunch of DVDs or a thumb drive collection of all of our keynote addresses and
Those include the likes of Steve Wozniak
Richard Stallman Aaron Magruder
Edward Snowden
William Binney, I know I'm leaving out people feel free to jump in
I mean
I think it's really amazing that we can just say
You know include someone like Edward Snowden and just this long list of people who are as amazing
As he is and of course his speech is in conversation with Daniel Ellsberg another
Amazing person who and I really enjoyed it
I think it was the first time the two of them had spoken publicly, which is something
well, you know they chose hope for that because we are the you know, the kind of venue that will really hear them out and
And you can really hear them out and hear what they had to say to each other and to the audience
If you pledge for these packages
Yeah
And and the amounts are asking for it for these these two gifts are rather rather low actually
$50 pledge $50 pledge the two one two two zero nine two nine five zero will get you all the DVDs with all of the
Keynote addresses over the ten conferences that we've had from nineteen ninety four to two thousand and fourteen
So you'll get everything you'll get Jello Biafra. You get William Binney Aaron Magruder Edward Snowden Daniel Ellsberg Richard Stallman
Kevin Mitnick is in there
just an incredible array of
diversity and and and just
Enlightenment and
It's it's amazing to me because the hope conferences started as well
It was a big conference when it started the biggest of its kind in the United States
inspired by the Dutch conferences that had been taking place overseas and
It's grown. It's grown so much since then not just in size
but in in content, it's not just about
Hacking into computers and and breaking security. It's about social issues as well. It's about
All kinds of things that are in the news that we hear about every day it's about leaks it's about
all kinds of other
Technological and non-technological things we had Jello Biafra speak for instance
He had never even owned a computer at that point. Maybe he still hasn't I don't know
and when we had Aaron Magruder speaking people wondered what does he have to do with computer hacking and
After he gave his talk nobody asked that question anymore
so it's just an incredible way that the hope conferences have had over the years of reaching out and
encompassing other communities as well and
That's what we've what we succeeded in is is expanding in that particular manner
So have you said the amount to pledge yet? I said 50 for the DVDs is 75 for the thumb drive thumb drive will get you
video of all the
The keynote addresses as well. So it's your choice. What media you want to receive it in? I mean, that's just
You know
There are many programs on this radio station who you pledge $50 and they send you a DVD and it's totally worth it because it's a
Great DVD
We're sending you
over a dozen DVDs for your pledge of $50 and
You're keeping us on the air for another few months
Where we'll say more things some of which might by chance be, you know, just a small percentage as insightful as these talks
That's that's amazing. Yes. Yeah, it is. It's and it shows the power that
That you have as a listener as well and how you're a part of this community in addition
So what we're gonna do now is we're going to go back to
2006
And that was the year that Richard Stallman
Gave a keynote address at Hope number six
In fact Kyle you were in the room at the time. Did you remember this? Yes, I
Remember it too. We didn't know each other at the time, but we were both in the same room. It was kind of cool
Richard Stallman was giving this this
Keynote address on a disc platter on his head hit a disc platter and I don't remember that
Okay, it was on the 18th floor of the Hotel, Pennsylvania
Which is where the conferences take place and there was this raging thunderstorm going on outside in the July afternoon
And there was lightning and thunder and and Richard Stallman all together. I'm not sure how much of that came across in the video
Because you'll note the first thing he does well apart from complaining about about not having enough ice in his in his glass
He was complaining about the light. So he made us dim the lights on him
So I'm not sure if that makes the lightning show up more it might it might so that could be a good thing right there
Yes, this is Richard Stallman walking in with a disc platter on his head
He takes it off when he starts talking, but he he did have a disc platter on his head
All right. So let's go back to
2006. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think a disc platter you probably think like a CD or a floppy disk
But he's like, I don't know. Yeah from like 30 centimeters from like
Yeah, the multi-user systems, you know the big big discs. I don't know how to describe them
We can't do it justice
You you're both failing miserably at describing this the only way that you can appreciate what they are attempting to describe is to see it
Yeah
it's beyond words and you can see it by pledging either $50 or $75 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 and
Getting all of the keynote addresses that we have had since
1994 from the very first conference with Robert Steele to the very last one with Edward Snowden and Daniel Ellsberg
so
that's what we're offering but we're going to go into a clip now from from 2006 in a
storm ravaged, New York
Richard Solomon
Oh
Everyone a man who needs no introduction. Oh, it's warm Pepsi. Is it it seems to be is there any ice available? We'll fix it
Ladies gentlemen RMS
You
Why are you turning those lights on it's too hot in here already
Besides so turn them down. Okay, you don't have to shine lights in my face to make me talk
Sit down down down down down down now a little more light in the audience would be good so that I don't fall asleep
You you're it's okay if you sleep
No, you won't make a bunch of people unhappy if you do
But I shouldn't sleep here
anyway
We apologize for this delay
We apologize for this delay due to late arrival of equipment and
We expect to get you moving shortly and wish you a pleasant
Listen on the way to the end of the speech or wherever your final destination may be
So I'm going to talk about free software and the hacker community
First of all, I better explain what free software means since probably even a lot of you have not heard what it means
Free software means software that respects the users freedom
There are four essential freedoms
for the user of software freedoms that every software user should always have and
These four freedoms make the definition of free software
Freedom zero is the freedom to run the program as you wish for any purpose
Freedom one is the freedom to study the source code and change it so that the program does what you wish
Freedom two is the freedom to help your neighbor. That's the freedom to make copies and distribute them to others
including publication and
Freedom three is the freedom to help to contribute to your community and that's the freedom to
Distribute your modified versions including publication when you wish
None of these is an obligation. You're never required to do any of these things
but the point is you're free to do them if you wish and
That means the software respects your freedom and respects the social solidarity of your community
If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number two
You're in danger of falling into a moral dilemma at any moment
When your friend says could I have a copy of that program?
At that moment you will be forced to choose between two evils
One evil is to give your friend a copy and violate the license of the program
The other evil is to deny your friend a copy and comply with the license of the program
Now once you're in the dilemma, you should choose the lesser evil
Which is to give your friend a copy and violate the license of the program
This is the lesser evil because
It's directed at somebody who has done wrong
We can suppose that your friend is a good friend a helpful person and ordinarily would deserve your cooperation
Whereas
The developer of a proprietary program has deliberately attacked the social solidarity of your community now
That's wrong
So if you can't help doing wrong to somebody better, it should be a wrongdoer that you do it to
However, to be the lesser evil does not mean it's good
It's never good to make an agreement and not keep it
Now it may be less bad than keeping the agreement depending on what you agreed to do
But it's never good
And an unauthorized copy of a non-free program
Shares most of the ethical ills of an authorized copy
The only one it doesn't share is that of rewarding the perpetrator
So
What you should really do once you have understood this dilemma is make sure you're never in it
Don't set foot on the path. That's going to lead you someday to that dilemma
And there are two ways to avoid it. One is don't have any friends
That's the method suggested by the proprietary software developers
And the other method is don't use proprietary software. That's the method I prefer
That way I don't have to worry about a moral dilemma
If someone asks for a copy of a program I've got on my computer
Because I will only accept free software onto it
If someone offers me an attractive, convenient, or a free copy of a program
An attractive, convenient program on a condition that I promise not to share it with you
I will say no
Because that's the right thing to do
And I would rather forego the convenience and fun of that program
Than put myself in a situation where I'd be ashamed of what I had done
Thank you
But just being free to share does not mean that you're in control of your own computer
For that you need freedom number one
You need to be able to study the program and change it
That's what enables you to decide what your computer does
If you use a program that doesn't give you freedom number one
The freedom to study the source code and change it
Then the developer controls what you can do
And you are under the developer's power
This is unjust
This is an unjust system of subjugation
If you don't have freedom number one
You can't even tell for certain what the program does
Lots of proprietary programs have malicious features
Because once a developer is in a position of power
The developer faces the temptation to go one step further
And start using that power specifically to mistreat others
So they put in spy features
And features designed to restrict the user
And even back doors
Now spyware is quite common
One proprietary program that you might have heard of
That spies on the user is called Windows XP
When the user of Windows XP
And I won't say you because I'm sure you wouldn't use a program like this
When the user of Windows XP searches her own files for a word
It sends a message saying what word was searched for
That's one spy feature
But there's another that we know of
When Windows XP asks for an upgrade
It sends Microsoft a list of all the software installed on the machine
Now these spy features were not announced by Microsoft
People had to discover them through investigation
Which was not always easy
There may be others which we don't know about
But spying is not limited to Windows
Windows Media Player also spies on the user
It reports everything the user looks at
Total surveillance
But please don't think that this is something that only Microsoft
The great Satan would do
Because in fact Real Player was the first such program to do this kind of spying
Total surveillance reporting everything the user looks at
And all Microsoft did was imitate them
Lots of companies spy on the user
And interestingly the TiVo spies on the user in the same way
Reporting everything the user looks at
Now this is particularly interesting
Because the TiVo uses a lot of free software
It has a small GNU Plus Linux operating system in it
And when it was first released a lot of people in our community
Applauded it for using free software
But it also contains non-free software
And it has malicious features like spying on the user
And digital restrictions management
And this shows that
To use free software
Which implicitly means to use some free software
Some of the time is not a sufficient target
The target has to be to use only software that respects your freedom
So that you have full freedom
Anything less is insufficient
And the TiVo is also an example of another malicious practice
That I'll talk about later
But malicious features go beyond spying on the user
There's also the functionality of refusing to function
Where the program says
I don't want to show you this file
I don't want to let you copy part of this file
I'm not going to print this file for you
Because I don't like you enough
This is DRM, digital restrictions management
Or digital handcuffs
Where the program is designed
Specifically to restrict you
For the sake of someone else
It becomes a simple instrument of someone else's power over you
And then there are backdoors
There was a proprietary program called Interbase
Which was liberated
And then the users could see that it contained a backdoor
And they could fix it
Presumably it had the same backdoor when it was proprietary
But the users couldn't see it or fix it
Another proprietary program that has a backdoor
That you may have heard of is called Windows XP
You see, when Windows XP asks for an upgrade
Microsoft can identify the user
Which means that they can deliver that user an upgrade
Designed specifically for him
They can take total control of that person's machine
In any way they want
And that user has very little recourse
So, we know about this backdoor
Because we can deduce it from known facts
But there might be others
Microsoft was caught in 1999
Having put a backdoor in a piece of server software
For the NSA
And there might be backdoors introduced by others
That Microsoft doesn't know about
For instance, some programmers in India
Working on the development of Windows XP
Were arrested and accused of working for Al-Qaeda
To introduce another backdoor
That Microsoft wasn't supposed to know about
Well, apparently that attempt failed
Was there another attempt that succeeded?
We can't tell
Now, there are various kinds of malicious features
That proprietary software developers can put in
But not all of them do so
Some do and some don't
Of course, you can't necessarily tell which is which
So, the result is that all proprietary software
Is just trust me software
Where you surrender
To a blind faith
In a developer which you know might not deserve it
But what of the ones
That don't put in malicious features?
Well, they may be honest
But they're still human
So they make mistakes
And that means that their code has bugs
And the user of a program without freedom number one
The freedom to study and change the source code
Is just as helpless
Confronting an unintended error in the code
As she is confronting a deliberate misfeature
The user of a non-free program
Is a prisoner of his software
Now, we the developers of free software
Are also human
So our code has errors too
Every non-trivial program has bugs
The difference is that we respect your freedom
So when you find errors in our code
You can fix them
We can't make ourselves perfect
But we can treat you decently
Wow, we could listen to that all night
We have to stop at some place
But that was Richard Stallman
Giving the keynote address at Hope No. 6
Back in 2006 here in New York City
It's always crazy to hear a mention of the NSA
There are some premonitions
It feels good to hear that
It's encouraging
Makes you feel like some of the things people have been saying for a long time
Are being looked at in new light
Guess what guys
We were on this decades ago
People were talking about the NSA spying on Americans then
It took a long time for the masses to catch up
For the media to actually report this
But the hackers knew what was going on
And people like Richard Stallman were sharing that information
I dare say
As much work as there is to be done
People are more aware of surveillance in general
The woman sitting next to me on the train
When I was talking about this
Freed Aerosat
She was the one that told me it was Aerosat
You were getting all excited about the blimp
She knew what it was
We now talk
Everyday discussion can cover
Surveillance dirigibles and the like
This is the kind of world we live in
There's so much speculation
That we're affirmed
That we get information from
Of course any that we dismiss
It's not something to dismiss
This stuff is real
And it's an everyday conversation
As that conversation continues
As people are talking about the NSA
It really strikes me
We were talking about that at our conferences in 2006
We've been talking about it on this station for much longer than that
And that's the sort of thing that this station allows to happen
That's the sort of thing that would not happen on other stations
Because there's nothing else like WBAI
And the only thing that's been keeping WBAI in the air
For so many decades, generations even
Has been you, the people listening to this
That are willing to put your money where your mouth is
And say, yes, I believe this station should stay on the air
I think programs on this station should stay on the air
And the only way you can do that is by calling 212-209-2950
Or by going to give2wbai.org
Now what we're offering tonight is a collection of all of our keynote addresses
For all the HOPE conferences
There have been 10 of them since 1994
We just heard an excerpt from HOPE No. 6
Of different kinds of speakers, different subject material
And you get all of that on DVDs
Each one a separate DVD, some multiple DVDs
For a pledge of $50, 212-209-2950
If you prefer a flash drive instead
Where you can copy the files, no DRM on our files
You can copy them and then use the flash drive for anything else you wish to use it for
You'll get that for a pledge of $75
212-209-2950
Bernie, I know you were in the room during the Richard Stallman talk
Any memories?
It was riveting. He was one of the volunteers
I found RMS to be one of our more challenging
Keynote speakers
But riveting talks
You're talking about the ice in the Pepsi glass? That was a challenge
He's just a challenging speaker
Not only was he challenging to manage
It challenges you to think
That's why we choose all of our HOPE speakers
They challenge us to think
And that's what this radio station WBAI does
It challenges you to think
It doesn't just cram commercial crap down your throat into your ears
Hoping that you will buy something
This is a radio station unlike any other
That would air this kind of material
Thank you for donating these DVDs and flash drives
Which are a tremendous value to our listeners
The radio station is a tremendous value
But this particular set of premiums is outstanding
I applaud you for putting this together, Emmanuel
I want to encourage our listeners
If this is the kind of material you support
Hearing on this station or anywhere
Call 212-209-2950
You get at least a dozen DVDs
With this kind of riveting material
Over $75 you can get a USB flash drive
You can just put it in your pocket and listen to it without an optical drive
But the most important thing is to support this station
Which is the only station I know of that has the courage
To air this kind of material
212-209-2950
I'd like to very quickly play one more excerpt from a different conference
I was just looking at h2k.net
You know we still have the website up?
And it looks like it hasn't been touched since around that time
I see there's a mention of H2K2 in 2002
So that might be the last time anyone ever touched that website
And it's cool because you see that we're planning it
And H2K just happened and we just kind of moved on to the next website
We didn't change the page at all
We just changed the name and got a different site
Speaking about Jello Biafra giving the H2K keynote speech
And how much of a milestone that was
That really was a milestone
Because at that point in the year 2000
We selected a keynote speaker
That was not really known to the hacker world
It wasn't somebody who was a security expert or a hacker extraordinaire
It was somebody with interesting ideas
That anybody who was open to them would find fascinating
And we find that most hackers are open to interesting ideas
Whether they agree with them or not
They are always interested in hearing it and debating it
And learning more and spreading information
So with that in mind we asked Jello to give the talk at H2K in 2000
And from that point
I think the tone of Hope Conference has changed
To include not only
Talks about computer hacking and security
And various other things like that
But also social issues and a much bigger world
And in so doing we also brought more people into the community
And I think that was a real turning point
I think so
I think with people like Jello Biafra
Like Aaron McGruder who created the comic strip Boondocks
And later the TV show
All these interesting people we get in who aren't necessarily
And didn't even have a computer at the time
But they approach their own fields and subjects of expertise
With a hacker spirit
Something that's very much in the hacker spirit
Jello Biafra coming from the punk world
Aaron McGruder coming from the art world
People like the Yes Men
Just all these different individuals who are willing to still challenge us to think
As Bernie said
And showing your support for us
Okay, this excerpt is only a couple of minutes
And it's from Jello Biafra
Back in the year 2000 at the H2K conference
Oh, who are some of the other ones?
News Corporation, owned by that noted progressive humanitarian
Rupert Murdoch
Their agenda certainly isn't to tell it like it is
Let alone put interesting stuff on the air
Part of the way you get people to shut up and shop
Is to dumb down the news
To help dumb down the people
Even in the late 80's there were surveys pointing out
Like from fairness and accuracy and reporting
Who everybody here should support and get to know
But even then there had already been a 25% reduction
In actual news on the news programs
And now what you get is
Good evening, here's the news
20 minutes of O.J. Simpson, Monica Lewinsky, JonBenet Ramsey
Or Princess Diana or whatever
Then a quick shot to the instant cam
Well yeah, there was some weird ass car wreck here about 4 hours ago
But the street does seem to be empty now
Now back to you
And that's all the news you need to know
Dumbing down the people
And deliberately keeping them that uninformed
Is rather anti-democratic
If you ask me
Because people can't make informed decisions
If they don't know what the hell is going on
And it's basically a way of just keeping people asleep
So it's better
Because after all, for the corporate world order
It's better that we function as livestock
Instead of active and proactive thinkers
It's like in the old Soviet evil empire
And communist China
The way you control the masses and make them livestock
Through advertising is basically fear
Of not keeping up with the state
And give them as little information as possible
Here, we bombard people with so much information
They don't necessarily know where to begin
To sift through it all
And it's fear of not keeping up with the Joneses
Instead
So it's sort of a modern lobotomy through fear
If you will
It's like, oh my god, what's wrong with me
I'm not making a million dollars as a dot com executive
It's coming up
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Well, I don't know why we needed him to say it if it was down for five hours, but whatever.
Police then linked him to the hacks when he used his own IP address to check how effective
the attacks had been.
Boo.
Yeah, I mean, you know, he was 16 then.
He didn't know anybody.
He's 17 now, and probably...
Well, maybe...
Actually, I don't know how old he is now.
Maybe you should take some lessons from some 14-year-olds.
This is how we learn.
Okay, after he was nicked, officers—again, a British term—officers also found Float
had downloaded—oh boy, here we go—111 prohibited images of children on March 31st,
April 7th, and June 2nd of last year when he was aged 17 and 18.
Not the same time.
Okay, there was some kind of progression there.
Here's the part that's really kind of weird.
The pictures were in cartoon form and had the common theme of mature mothers engaging
in sexual acts with their sons who were as young as 9 or 10.
Cartoons?
Cartoons are prohibited images now?
Oh, yeah, obscenity is pretty nasty.
Yeah, but prohibited?
Illegal?
Cartoons?
Yeah.
Really?
Depiction.
Yeah.
I mean, Prophet Muhammad was one thing, but this?
Really?
This is a whole show.
We need, like, a whole four-hour show to unpack this.
But this is the UK.
I mean, that's not the case here, right?
If you draw a stick figure and say, that's, you know—I don't want to give people ideas.
Depends on who's asking.
But come on, we're getting a little crazy here.
It's true, it's a little crazy, but yeah, I mean, depends on who you're asking in this
country and what you're asking about, but anyway, there's a lot to it, but that doesn't
surprise me.
Well, anyway, this guy was spared jail, sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 18
months.
I don't understand how that works.
I was bad at math.
Sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 18 months.
So that means—
Yeah, if you don't do anything else for 18 months, then you don't have an eight-month
prison sentence.
I thought he got, like, ten free months somewhere.
Okay.
So he stayed out of trouble for 18 months.
With a supervision order—
I mean, I assume that's what it means.
I don't know the British legal system.
The sentencing recorder, John Steele—I don't know, he sounds serious—he said, these actions
were wrong, serious, and criminal.
You must have known this from the outset.
They are absolutely nothing to be proud of.
The defendant was, at the time of offenses, 16 years old, partially driven by fascination
of computer hacking.
He was craving for recognition by fellow hackers and driven by a sense of youthful bravado—
This was written by native speakers of English?
To a like-minded community, boasting to others in the hacker's community about his prowess
and achievements.
The consultant forensic psychiatrist found insufficient evidence that you suffer from
an autism spectrum disorder.
And it goes on from there, basically, he read the Riot Act and promised never to do anything
bad again.
But, you know, I think it's good that he didn't go to jail.
It would be nice if that was the default, where people who get into this kind of trouble
didn't wind up going to jail.
It would be nice if hacker bravado did not include bragging about that kind of crap.
I mean, it would be nice if adulation and acknowledgment from your friends didn't require
that.
I mean, I think he's, you know, but also at an age where you kind of have to expect there's
a little of that going on.
Well, these are social issues that, yeah, we have to deal with, absolutely.
But I think the bigger issue is keeping kids out of jail and keeping kids from having criminal
records that will follow them around for the rest of their lives.
And not charging people with crimes for ridiculous things like cartoons and things like that.
Yeah.
And I'm willing to wager that if not all, then most people maybe in this room, as well
as listening to us, maybe did something irresponsible when they were a teenage kid.
Maybe?
Maybe.
Maybe?
Possibly.
Absolutely not.
I waited until I was an adult.
Yeah.
Good job.
But yeah, if everything that a stupid kid did that was stupid, that was maybe not a
good decision, ended up in a huge sort of write-up like this where they're taking gleefully
every opportunity to say everything possible, possibly negative about this kid.
Oh, look, he also had cartoons that might scare you.
He also yelled at his mother and crossed the street without looking both ways and all this
stuff.
So it really tells a lot about not only this media outlet, but also the attitude in general
when it comes to the press and, look at this hacker, oh my God, this is a scary person.
Look at all this other stuff they're doing.
Well, and justice in general.
Yeah.
Exactly.
This is in particular hacking and stuff, but you should have a chance to say your side
of the story and present yourself in the best of light as you'd like to explain.
Get your day in court, as it were.
But to a certain degree, the media and so on is free to do what they will and characterize
people in the ways they will and without actually looking at some of these crazy, crazy laws
and ways of interpreting them in some instances.
Yeah, I'm actually having a little bit of a hard time getting worked up about this compared
to some of the stuff that would happen in the States in an equivalent situation.
Look, look, it's not nice to take down other people's websites.
And if you take down a powerful person's website, you're more likely to get into trouble.
It's not nice.
You're right.
It's not nice.
But at least he's not suffering decades in jail.
And I hate that I'm rationalizing it in this way, but compared to the States, this sounds
great.
Yeah.
Well, I'm sure there are bad things that happen over in the UK as well as far as sentencing
people for ridiculous crimes.
And there are cases in the States where people don't get sentenced to prison for being mischievous
or even stupid.
You have to look at what we're really talking about here.
What we're really talking about is the FBI website going down for five hours.
Okay, you know, pain in the ass, but I think the blimp escaping is more of a pain in the
ass for the government and nobody's going to prison for that.
This is education.
This is how we learn how to design better websites and how we learn what the weak points
are.
If our own teenagers are defeating the security of our infrastructure, imagine what true enemies
of the state would do.
So consider it a learning experience and maybe communicate with these kids a little better
and you won't have criminals in prison for decades that wind up hating you.
Yeah, they're finding out what is cool and what is acceptable and appropriate behavior.
And yeah, there should be some allowance for that.
There should be measured responses.
And I think that's been kind of a theme in the last couple of months is the kinds of
responses we get all the way from corporate letters to people suggesting things to specific
incidents like this and on and on.
Absolutely.
Bernie, any thoughts?
Yeah, it just reminds me of other crazy cases we heard about in the UK.
This one doesn't really work me up either like Mike, but we had the mom of Richard O'Dwyer
on this show three or four years ago who set up a website called TV Shack and he was providing
links to other websites where you could download TV shows that other people had recorded and
put on other servers.
And that guy really was looking at some serious time.
He was extradited to the United States.
It was really crazy stuff.
But like you said, these are young people who have discovered vulnerabilities and donate,
frankly, a public service to these companies who have really, if they really want to protect
their property or protect their intellectual property or what they would even claim is
their intellectual property, protect it better.
So this is the kind of stuff we talk about on the show that I don't know many other radio
stations would play this kind of material because commercial media has an interest in
intellectual property and protecting it and whatever.
But we sort of have a different viewpoint of it.
Certainly, RMS, who we played earlier tonight, has a very different viewpoint about this
sort of thing.
So if you like hearing this kind of material, I'd encourage listeners to support this station
and get a lot of this content shipped to you by calling 212-209-2950.
You can get a DVD set with more than a dozen keynote speeches or a USB flash drive with
the same material on it for $75.
But the main thing is to support this station by calling 212-209-2950.
You will have many, many hours of really riveting stuff to listen to, and you'll keep this station
on the air so you can listen to many more.
I echo what you said about saying things and playing things, talking about things that
are not popular.
I mean, think about the last thing Jello said was basically that you have peer pressure
to make your million dollars in the dot-com startup arena.
And I think that's so funny, and it's apropos, it's now, I mean, gosh, that seems like such
a little amount of money in that world.
And today, I think it's even overcrowded to the extent that it's not even what you would
aspire to.
You just want to go work for one of those companies.
The people coming up now aren't even thinking that way.
I don't think the pressure's there.
They just want to find one of those places that maybe will pay them, and on and on and
on.
Or maybe they want to create something that's even more massive and costly.
To what end?
It basically is another behemoth of a tech company that does nothing and either spies
or ruins tech for people.
Whatever it does, it does.
These are ideas that you wouldn't normally hear.
People talk about tech in passing so easily, we aren't as critical, we're not conditioned
to be critical of the structure of some of these industries and the kind of mediated
world that we are navigating with all of these new tools and stuff.
We have the promise of such easy information and ease of so many things, but the ramifications,
the implications, the sheer greed at play behind it and the impact that greed is having
— that stuff matters.
You're not going to hear that on your commercial stations, the kind of evening news that Jello
was talking about.
That's not popular.
Even in the tech world, I think we would have a hard time because we wouldn't be talking
venture capital numbers.
We wouldn't be talking about which business we started this week and how our serial entrepreneurship
is going and our portfolio, this and that and the other thing.
We wouldn't do well in those circles either.
That's what this is about.
This is community broadcast.
We can talk about whatever we want here and we're here opening these things up.
We're here to learn too.
We're by all means not experts.
Gosh, I've been meaning to say this for years.
In case you haven't checked, we're not experts.
We are here to learn, we're here to analyze this stuff, we go over it, we're familiar
and we are absolutely passionate and interested in this area, but we depend as much on listeners
and the community around us, this special community here at the radio station and beyond
to support us and to challenge us, maybe provide us with corrections.
You can do that.
Hey, oth at 2600.com, that's where you write.
You write a letter.
You can write us an email.
We'll play a file.
If it's clean, we'll play something.
If you observe something, you record it.
We've done all kinds of things like that in the past and we really do benefit from
this community.
I just want to get that out that this really does matter.
This is important stuff and what Bernie's talking about is no joke.
It's a special thing to have this transmitter and this station going the way it is and gosh,
we've got a lot to hope for in the future.
Absolutely.
Well said, Kyle.
You are listening to WBAI New York.
It's just after eight o'clock.
Personal Computer Show is not on tonight, unfortunately.
Well, the fortunate part is that we're on.
We're on for another hour and we're going to bring you a few more excerpts of talks
from the HOPE Conference.
Kyle, you got something else?
Should I get off the table now?
Yeah, you can sit back down.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
We are going to go now to the year of 2012.
That's when HOPE No. 9 took place.
This is particularly interesting and as we've been saying, we're offering a special collection
tonight of all of our keynote addresses that have taken place at HOPE Conferences throughout
the years.
For a pledge of $50, you'll get a bunch of DVDs.
For a pledge of $75, you'll get a thumb drive with all of the DVD quality files on them
that you can copy and spread around to your heart's content.
212-209-2950 is the number to call.
Mike, the secret words to say to the people to not confuse them?
What were they again?
It is the HOPE Archive's thumb drive or the HOPE Archive's DVD collection.
212-209-2950.
If you say the HOPE Archive's, that should pretty much trigger.
You think so?
Yeah, I hope so.
212-209-2950.
That's our phone number.
Now what we're going to do is go to some excerpts, a couple of excerpts actually from William
Binney's talk.
William Binney was an NSA analyst who turned into an NSA whistleblower.
Keep in mind, this was before Edward Snowden appeared on the scene.
It was particularly interesting because Laura Poitras was there.
Remember this, Kyle?
She was.
Yeah, I do.
We met Binney at the train station, at Penn Station, and we all escorted him up to the
hotel before his talk.
The things he was saying, they seemed unbelievable at the time.
He was talking about the NSA spying domestically on Americans, and the numbers he was giving
out just seemed so incredible, the amount of data.
I remember the mass media just basically brushing this off, not taking it seriously, even though
this guy had been raided and harassed by the authorities himself for daring to release
this information and to actually share with people that had every right to know what the
NSA was really up to.
It wasn't until Edward Snowden came on the scene a year or so later that people really
started to wake up.
But this is a good example of how the speakers at HOPE conferences were ahead of the game
and are courageous, too.
A lot of them have such guts to come out and speak out against what are really, really
powerful adversaries.
That's something that William Binney will forever have my respect for because it took
a lot of guts to do what he did.
So many people don't even know his name, and I think that needs to change.
You'll get his whole talk, 202-209-2950, pledged for the HOPE Archive premiums.
Let's take a listen to William Binney from 2012 in New York City.
He most certainly was in the NSA buildings that we saw just a moment ago.
Well, after 9-11, he noticed a change in what the NSA was doing.
He saw that the technology was being used against Americans in our own country, and
that was too much for him to deal with.
And he became, instead of an NSA analyst, he became an NSA whistleblower.
And I think there's nothing more courageous than standing up to such a powerful entity
and letting the rest of us know what's really going on.
And with that, it's my honor to introduce as our keynote this Friday, William Binney.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you to the coordinators of HOPE for inviting me here, to give me the opportunity
to express my story.
Some of it was hard to believe.
I'm sure you'll find some of it difficult to believe.
I find some of it difficult myself to even believe that actually things like this happened
and our government did these kinds of things.
So what I'd like to do is go through my entire background with NSA and how I handled
the events in 9-11 after that, and all the things that happened with the Department of
Justice and us after that.
Plus, then I'd like to go into some of the technology that is involved in large data
database analysis with you.
And then give you my impression of what the White House's new initiative on big data analysis
is really all about, even though they can't say it correctly.
This is really what they're asking.
And I'll try to define that for you, and hopefully that'll give you some idea.
It'll certainly give you a better idea, I believe, of how these events are occurring
and how dangerous metadata is to monitoring the entire population.
As I said before in different forums, the KGB, the Stasi, and the Gestapo could never
have dreamt of having anything as great or as comprehensive as this capacity to monitor
the population.
Their primary focus, they tried to get information about their population so they could
control it.
And that's fundamentally what dictatorships and totalitarian systems do around the world.
And that, unfortunately, is the way our government is going.
So I'll try to define what that's all about, the technology behind that, and what they're
asking now and in the future.
And they're spending hundreds of millions to do that a year here.
Here's how this solution worked.
It was actually penciled out.
It wasn't done in the computer.
The point is that miracles don't happen in the computer.
They happen in your mind, and you relate them on paper.
And you can see them on paper, and then you build the programs to manage them.
So I mean, computers can do a certain amount, but fundamentally the trick is to get your
mind wrapped around the problem to where you can understand it to the point where you can
see into it and begin to break it apart and solve it.
So at any rate, 9-11 happened.
So I started thinking, gee, maybe I should reconsider retiring, because I always wanted
to do something positive, like stop the bad guys, even though there was all this corruption
around me.
But it must have been right after, a few days, no more than a week after 9-11, that they
decided to begin actively spying on everyone in this country.
And they were doing it by taking billing data from telecoms.
But what I didn't know at the time was in February of 2001, they had already started
requesting that data from different telecoms.
This is when the CEO of Quest refused them, and he went into court and testified to that,
that he was approached by some three-star general out of NSA to provide customer data.
But that was in February of 2001.
Well, the point was that we had put our system together from end to end and had it functioning
in November of 2000.
So this is three months after that, which meant that they wanted that back part of our
program to run all this spying.
So that's exactly what they did.
So then they started taking the telecom data and it expanded after that.
The one I knew was AT&T, and that one provided 320 million records every day.
That was just phone calls.
And then when they got the taps in, like the ones in San Francisco, they started the nearest
devices to take the data off the internet.
So what I did after that was, I was naive enough to think that the government would
really, if people in certain positions of the government knew this was going on, that
they would take some action to correct it or at least bring it back into some constitutional
form or some process that was constitutionally acceptable.
So first I went to the House Intelligence Committee, the HIPC, and the staff member
that I personally knew there.
And she then went to Porter Goss, who was the chairman of that committee, and also Nancy
Pelosi, who was the deputy or the minority rep.
We were all briefed into the program at the time, by the way, and all the other programs
that were going on, including all these CIA programs.
And Porter Goss referred her to General Hayden out at NSA, by all I mean, it's going back
to the origin of this program.
And he went out there and of course she talked to him and he said, of course, we don't have
to worry about that now.
It's all been approved by the White House and it's legal.
So spying on everybody then was legal internally and it was all written up in memos by you
and I guess others held in, in fact, I know the NSA lawyer went down to Addington's office
in Cheney's, who was right outside of Cheney's office, Addington was his legal rep there.
And he asked for the memos that said that the spying was legal.
So we'd have a written record documentation so that his ass wasn't on the line, you know,
and he never got it, of course.
Because if he got anything like that, and I don't think anything like that was written
because that would be direct evidence for impeachment.
So, but they didn't do that, so, and they didn't get the record.
So they kept going and that program was reauthorized every 45 days by the, what I call the Yes
Committee, which was Hayden and Tenet and the DOJ.
So shortly after that, I mean, I went from there, I went, we, Kirk, I wasn't alone in
this by the way.
There were like, there were four others out of NSA and one staff from the HPSC, one member
of the staff.
We were all trying to work internally in the government over these years, trying to get
them to come around to being constitutionally acceptable and take it into the courts and
have the court's oversight of it too.
So we naively kept thinking that that could, that could happen and it never did.
In fact, even now they're trying to keep all these issues out of the court.
That's why I signed the affidavit for EFF to help testify.
I wanted to testify in court about all this stuff because in my mind, these people are
still hiding behind this quote, national security curtain.
And all I want to do is move that aside and say, see, don't pay any, don't pay, pay attention
to that man behind the curtain because he's affecting you.
He's affecting every one of us.
I mean, in my mind, we're slippery at this, we're going down this slippery slope towards
totalitarianism and that's why I told Jim Bamford that I thought we were about that
far from a totalitarian state.
At least everything is set to make that, turn that key and have that happen.
I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest
with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going
to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you,
I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest
with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going
to be honest with you.
And we've been listening to William Binney from Hope No. 9 giving the keynote address
just part of our special keynote package that we've been offering tonight on Off The Hook.
William Binney, ex-NSA, what a talk that was.
You guys remember this?
It was a heck of a talk to listen to.
Yeah, really, it was inspirational and made you angry at the same time.
Bernie, I know you were there for that as well.
I was, and I have to say that was some of the most terrifying and scary talk I have
ever heard in my life, not just at a Hope conference.
It frightened the hell out of me that our government, I mean it shouldn't be surprising
to any of us what he was saying, but to hear someone who was there that actively tried
to get our government to follow the Constitution, and the part we didn't hear was he was arrested
by gunpoint in his shower in his own home, and basically charged with espionage.
They wanted to lock him up for the rest of his life for talking about this stuff.
There's a backstory, Emanuel, I think you've probably heard this too, that Laura Poitras,
who was at that talk at Hope, filmed Binney and used some of the footage from this talk
you just heard in her op-doc produced along with the New York Times back in 2012.
And the word is that Edward Snowden saw that documentary while he was working for an NSA
contractor, and I think he's actually spoken or at least touched on this.
And this is the talk that inspired Edward Snowden to realize that going through official
channels to report illegality by our own government on a massive scale, even, was not the way
to go, because the government will just arrest you at gunpoint, lock you up for the rest
of your life, or try to.
And that's why Edward Snowden decided to leave the country and go public from a safe place.
Had he done what William Binney did, is try to work within the system, we wouldn't be
hearing much from Edward Snowden right now.
Interesting.
Well, so you're saying that what Binney was saying was a direct inspiration to Snowden.
I have heard this from more than one source, that op-doc that Edward Snowden saw called
The Program, produced with the New York Times and Laura Poitras.
Excerpts of this Hope talk were in that documentary.
I've seen the documentary.
You can just search online for The Program and Laura Poitras, P-O-I-T-R-A-S.
You'll see part of this Hope talk in that documentary.
And Edward Snowden is reported to have seen that and been inspired to realize that going
through official channels to report gross illegality and unconstitutionality by our
own government was futile.
And I think we all know that had Edward Snowden tried to go through official channels like
Bill Binney did, we would not have learned huge amounts of information we've learned
from his leaks.
It just wouldn't have.
This information never would have gotten out.
The huge troves of information we've learned from Edward Snowden would have never reached
the public ears and eyes had Edward Snowden gone through official channels at NSA.
So that's why he did what he did.
But this talk we've just heard is a key part of the puzzle of how all this stuff works.
And I encourage, if you want a real scary, you know, I've seen scary movies before.
If you watch this DVD, you will be frightened to death.
I think it's really scary.
212-209-2950, you'll get this talk.
You'll get like a dozen more, either on a DVD set or on a flash drive, $50 and $75
respectively.
And you'll be supporting a radio station that makes this available to the public.
There aren't any other radio stations that are going to air this material.
So please support this station and what we're trying to do here by calling 212-209-2950
and ask, what is it exactly, the name of the premiums we need to ask for?
Okay, well, we have a couple of updates.
So we need to give people here, because I know a number of people have been calling
in, trying to pledge for these things.
It's really frustrating when the government tries to prevent you from getting word out.
It's exceptionally frustrating when incompetence prevents you from actually doing it when you've
surpassed that particular challenge.
We have had the premiums registered here at the station, but they were hidden and nobody
could pledge for them for the past hour and 20 minutes.
And since we're kind of isolated here in a radio station with no phones, we had no way
of knowing what was going on until we did a little bit of investigation ourselves while
we were doing the show.
So we're sorry about that.
Not our fault.
We had the things registered, but somehow they were registered wrong.
And if you were calling in and trying to pledge for these things, you were probably told that
you couldn't do it.
And I'm sorry about that.
They are now visible.
If you search for HOPE at give2wbai.org, go to the third page, you'll see them at the
bottom there.
And if you call 212-209-2950, and please, I hope all the people who have been calling
for the last 80 minutes call back, 212-209-2950.
The people there now will know what you're talking about because whoever hid the premiums
has now unhidden them.
And I'd like to give a special shout out and thanks to the multiple listeners who emailed
us and tweeted at us about this problem.
I can't use the words I want to use.
But yeah, I hope our listeners are still with us and will call in droves now to make up
for all the time that this mistake has cost us.
And I hope you've enjoyed what we've played so far because it's pretty inspiring stuff.
And I know a lot of people want this package, 212-209-2950.
I fear the pledge people will be overwhelmed by all the calls that come in, hopefully.
Good.
I think that's the way to go.
And if you go to give2wbai.org and search for Hope Archives, they'll be at least on
the first page of results.
And if you call 212-209-2950 and say, I would like the Hope Archives DVD collection or the
Hope Archives thumb drive, they will be able to find it too.
So that'll be exciting.
In charge of things here, when you see that we raised a big fat goose egg for the first
hour of the show, hopefully that won't be something that is judged on us.
And we wind up at four o'clock in the morning in a graveyard shift because we don't have
any listeners.
We have plenty of people out there that support us and want this package and have been trying
to get it for a while now.
212-209-2950.
We apologize to our listeners for this oversight, whatever caused it.
And for those of you listening to us in the mysterious future because you were unable
to listen live and you checked out the podcast or the archive copy, for as long as these
last, they will still be listed on the site and you should be able to get them.
Give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950.
Limited quantities available, but if you call or visit the website and you should do it
now before they run out, but if you still see them there or they can still find them,
they're still available.
Yeah, well, they're all there now because none of them have been touched.
Well, if you're listening live, then you definitely don't have this problem.
Again, 212-209-2950.
You'll get all the DVDs for $50.
You'll get a big fat thumb drive for $75.
All the keynote addresses for all the HOPE conferences.
So even though it's not our fault, I think as an apology to our listeners for this trouble,
if you pled for the thumb drive, we will throw in a few extra talks.
We're going to do that anyway.
Well, but yeah.
Okay.
Now we're doing it because of that.
That's what we'll say.
That's how I'm trying to be nice to the people.
Well, our most supportive list.
We already said we were throwing in extra ones.
Oh, I was out of the room when we said.
All right.
But yeah, we'll make it up somehow.
We'll try.
We'll work extra hard.
Yeah.
Like we'll have another HOPE conference this next summer.
All right.
I guess we'll do that then.
Yeah.
212-209-2950.
The problem is we're so cut off here.
We can't see calls coming in anymore.
We can't talk to our listeners on the phone.
And things like this happen.
And thanks to the listeners who were.
How did we hear from them?
A couple of people emailed us.
Someone I know direct messaged me on Twitter about it.
You shouldn't be checking your phone during the show.
We've discussed this.
Fortunately.
You're assuming I checked it on my phone.
We have a remote producer reading the emails who notified us.
All right.
That's the kind of thing that can happen with live radio.
You won't hear this on NPR.
That's for damn sure.
212-209-2950.
There's something else we haven't mentioned.
If by any chance these premiums are not of particular interest to you,
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We hope it's one of yours.
Also, if you don't want to donate $50, you can donate lesser amounts,
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On the other hand, if you are able to contribute more,
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Yeah, isn't the end of the fiscal year approaching?
I don't know what that means.
Yeah, I think that happens in September or something.
I don't know.
I don't understand it either.
212-209-2950.
Help us keep going here at WBAI on off the hook.
Hey, I'd like to go to another excerpt,
just so I can maybe stick my head out the window and scream a little bit.
This is from the year 2002.
That was the year we had Aaron Magruder show up.
And again, people were asking, this was after we had Jello,
the previous conference, people were asking,
what does he have to do with the hacker community?
And I'll tell you what Aaron Magruder had to do with the hacker community.
He was the guy that actually got the whole DECSS controversy right in Boondocks.
He portrayed it in every single newspaper in the country,
which carried Boondocks, a large number did.
This was back when print newspapers were a thing.
Well, yeah, yeah, they still are somewhere.
But the point is he was able to do what the people writing news stories
were unable to do, and that's get the story right.
And I believe we described that as a really good hack back then.
And it's something that we appreciate to this day.
So here's a little bit of an excerpt from Aaron's talk back in 2002.
Again, that phone number 212-209-2950,
$50 gets you the entire collection of all of our Hope keynotes,
plus a few other talks.
$75 gets you all of that in thumb drive form.
So it's either DVD or thumb drives.
212-209-2950.
I mean, what's scary to me is we at this point are at a loss for what to do.
We don't know what to do about our politicians.
You know, we don't know what to do about foreign policy.
First of all, there's a few things that you should think about.
One, I mean, I remember at September 11th all these people were like,
let's go get them.
Let's go fight them.
Let's go do this.
Let's go do that.
Oh, yeah, like it's up to you.
Shut up.
All these people in coffee shops.
I hate that.
I hate people talking about foreign policy in coffees.
You know what?
Why?
You have no say.
Shut up.
First of all, you don't know anything.
Americans, I just wish.
See, I'm the guy that says, you know what?
I don't know anything.
I'm standing in front of a room of people.
You all know a lot more than I do about a lot of stuff that's actually practical,
has practical uses in the world.
God bless you for it.
Me, I know nothing.
But at least I admit to that.
I tell jokes.
I have a halfway clever sense of humor if you catch me on the right day.
That's it.
You know what?
Most Americans are just like me.
They don't know anything.
So shut up.
You are an idiot who has been raised by advertising since you were two and a half years old.
You don't know anything.
Americans, they watch the O'Reilly factor and feel educated.
And talk about things as though they knew.
You know what the problem is with Cuba?
No, and you don't either.
Because you've never been there and neither have I.
Cuba could be like nirvana for all I know.
You don't know about Cuba.
You don't know about Iraq.
So that really angers me.
I was having a discussion about September 11.
I can't believe it.
We need to go kill them.
Why?
They took out our buildings.
Ours?
I didn't own any of those buildings.
Well, they killed a bunch of our people.
Well, you know, we killed half a million Iraqis.
No, we didn't.
Yes, we did.
How many people you think died over there when we was dropping all them bombs day in and day out?
Not as many as we got killed.
Yeah, that doesn't count even like the million or so that died after because of the sanctions and all that.
Americans, look, the world is ignorant.
People in oppressed dictatorships, communist countries, whatever,
they don't know what's going on in the world because their media is controlled.
And you know what?
Neither do we.
Our media is controlled.
But you know what?
If you go to Iraq and ask somebody, and I haven't done it, but I figure,
if you go to Iraq and ask somebody and say, what's going on in the world?
They probably say, I don't know.
Sudan doesn't let us watch anything.
But the difference over here, we think we know.
We have the illusion of wisdom.
We swear we know about what's going on in the world, and we don't.
So just like we swear we live in a democratic society, so we say these things to each other,
like, yeah, we need to go over there and do that.
I'm going to write my congressman.
Nobody cares.
You have no say.
You're not important.
Who'd you vote for?
Gore.
No, that's a thing.
But if you voted for Gore, you know what?
You should just leave.
Like, at least I voted for Nader.
He didn't have a chance.
And that was Aaron Magruder speaking at our 2002 conference, H2K2, giving the keynote address,
one of many talks that you will get for a pledge to 212-209-2950.
You'll get all the keynotes for a pledge of $50 on DVD format.
You'll get all of them on a flash drive for $75, 212-209-2950.
That was quite a talk.
It was controversial, to say the least.
It angered some people, including some other speakers as well.
But that's the beauty of it.
That's the beauty of giving talks and having a free exchange of ideas.
It makes you think, because even if you disagree with some of the things that Aaron was saying,
he got to a point where, yeah, you know what?
What he's saying rings true.
Particularly us believing we know things, and we really don't know things.
We really aren't experts on the rest of the world.
And we're told a lot of things.
The media spoon-feeds us garbage.
The government controls the media.
We're starting to wake up to that a lot more.
Back then, it was a little bit more difficult to get that out.
But it was a real honor to have him at our conference giving this talk, controversial as it was.
In fact, we embraced the controversy.
Again, just one of many talks that we are offering here tonight.
So, look, if you pledge $50 for the Hope Archives DVD collection,
pledge $75 for the Hope Archives thumb drive, 212-209-2950,
you're going to get this in the mail, you're going to get these videos,
and you're going to watch them, right?
And there's going to be someone on that who says something you disagree with.
Yes.
Probably every single keynote will say at least one thing you disagree with.
They better.
You're going to get perspectives from some of the smartest people in the world on these crucial issues,
and you would be a fool to not at least consider their viewpoints.
And you can do that if you pledge and you receive these premiums.
You'll get them all in one package, all in one place.
You can watch them.
You can just binge-watch them, stay up all night.
Probably you'll need a lot of caffeine or something to watch them all at once.
Or you can watch one a week for half a year.
You've got lots of options, 212-209-2950.
We're not saying you're a fool if you don't get the package.
I think we're saying you're a fool if you just dismiss different viewpoints out of hand
or label an entire community of people or an entire conference or anybody
just based on one perspective that's presented.
Exactly.
I'm sure there are things that I will strongly disagree with that are on this set,
but there are also things that I strongly agree with.
There are things that I'm on the fence about, but each one of those things,
whether I agreed with it or not, was something interesting.
It was something that made me think.
It was something that got a discussion going.
And that's something that I love about Hope.
It's something that I love about this station because I listen to WBAI a lot.
I'll turn it on sometimes, and there will be something that I don't agree with at all,
but it will still be something that makes me think.
It will still be something that I appreciate has a chance to have this forum
to do their thing on the air because that wouldn't happen at other stations,
212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org to help this keep happening.
And some of these are a little ahead of their time.
I mean, it would have been hard, I think, to hear what Benny was saying.
It was hard, I remember.
And related, not having the hindsight, the perspective that you have now,
years and years later, I remember at the time it was surreal.
It was like these huge, massive, massive numbers in terms of data sizes, amounts of files.
It was unbelievable.
And where he was coming from, there was not some massive media institution behind him.
This was an individual who had worked in the industry at a time when whistleblowing itself
was under a lot of scrutiny.
We were basically on a bit of a high, I think, as a country coming off the elections.
But in fact, what was occurring with drones and with surveillance and whistleblowing,
it was just emerging then.
And so a lot of this would have been a little bit odd coming down the path.
But now, I mean, looking back, it was so dead on.
And I would say the same thing with some of the critiques Jello and Aaron have had of media.
And some of that stuff we're still looking at now.
It's hard to actually listen to these talks and say, oh, that's obviously from that period of time.
Because you're talking about Benny, who gave a talk in 2012,
and we just heard Aaron McGruder giving a talk in 2002, 10 years earlier.
And they're both keyed in to the hypocrisies and the injustices that are happening around us,
things that affect us very significantly and things that the mass media was completely ignoring
or just totally missing.
And that's the beauty of it.
Because that clued-in attitude exists in all the conferences that we've had,
exists with all of our keynote speakers.
Brock Meeks was our keynote speaker for Beyond Hope in 1997,
the only conference that did not take place at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
He was working with MSNBC then, and he's gone on to do all kinds of incredible things since.
But he also gave a great talk.
Just so many amazing pieces that you'll get as part of this package when you call 212-209-2950.
And Rob, you pointed this out to me during the break, that Aaron McGruder's Wikipedia page.
Ah, yes. If you look Aaron McGruder up on Wikipedia, as of this broadcast,
the photo of him used there is a photo I took of him at Hope in 2002,
which is kind of happy in one way, but in another way.
Come on, Wikimedians, it's been 13 years. You can find a better picture of him.
Wait, you took this picture?
I did.
And it's been up since whenever his page came up?
Pretty much, yeah.
Wow. I saw that he was at the Hope conference in 2002.
That's his picture, but I didn't know you took the picture.
That's really kind of weird.
But yeah, and Aaron has continued to do all kinds of amazing things post-Boondocks.
Black Jesus, incredible program that he's involved in,
and hope to see many, many more creative things from him
and from all of our speakers at the various conferences.
Not just the keynotes.
Average of about 150 speakers per conference,
and some of them are really amazing people.
And with Aaron in particular, he was talking a bit about at the time
he was just doing Boondocks as a comic strip,
and it had something of a cult following,
but he talked about how he wanted to build it up into a TV thing,
and of course years later it became a TV thing and was very successful.
So successful, in fact, that network took it away from him
and tried to do it without him. It didn't work as well.
No.
I'm talking about the animated Boondocks.
Yes, the animated Boondocks.
But yeah, he's gone and been to so many good places
and done really interesting work since then,
and it's great to see him back then still as interesting,
still doing neat things, and still coming at it
from a direction that's very much of a hacker perspective.
And what I find really amazing too is people like this,
people that we respect so much,
whether it's Edward Snowden or William Binney,
Aaron McGruder, Jello Biafra, Steve Wozniak, etc., etc.,
they are all amazed by our community.
They are impressed and blown away by what hackers are doing.
And to me there's no better honor than that,
to be able to see that kind of appreciation coming from people
that you really hold in high regard.
We are going to run out of time if we're not careful,
so I want to make sure we have enough time to play this last excerpt,
and that's from our most recent conference in 2014,
HOPEx, the 10th HOPE Conference.
You don't have to look too far to know who we had as our keynote speaker then.
Actually we had a couple of people for our keynote speaker.
They gave kind of a combined talk, a conversation,
and we basically made history.
I don't know how we're going to top it,
but Daniel Ellsberg and Edward Snowden gave a joint talk,
a conversation as we've been saying, last July.
Well, actually a year ago, July.
And this was shortly after Edward Snowden came upon the scene,
and just the most recent chapter in incredible talks.
You can get all these talks.
You can get all the keynotes plus a few others in DVD format
by calling 212-209-2950 and asking for the DVD set for $50
or the flash drive set for $75, 212-209-2950,
or go to give2wbai.org and look it up.
Type HOPE into the search bar there,
and I think it comes up on the third page,
or maybe it will show up easier if time goes by.
If you type HOPE archives, then it will be on the page.
It comes right up.
All right.
Let's go back and listen to something from July of 2014.
Again, 212-209-2950.
♪♪
Hardly anybody was willing to extrapolate and say,
well, Ellsberg has shown that four previous presidents
lied in the same way, escalated in the same way,
made the same kind of secret threats,
Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson,
but it ended with those.
It ended before Nixon.
So I thought maybe they'll figure out
that maybe the current president is doing the same.
No, it took documents, and I didn't have that.
So for years, I've been saying to people,
it's got to be with documents,
even though that increases their risk.
Well, people know that, basically,
but they weren't willing to take the risk, I'm sorry to say,
and couldn't do it anonymously.
So then Manning came out with his millions,
hundreds of thousands, actually, of cables,
and they knew with documents,
and it's like Mordecai Venunu in Israel with photographs
that Israel had a nuclear program and even an H-bomb
that they weren't willing to admit,
and it took those documents, which took the risk.
So what I was saying is I saw right away,
without having met you, without having met Manning,
that this is someone who I identify with,
and at the same time, new heroes.
He said, what was my feeling when I heard Snowden's name?
I said, well, I have a new hero now.
And so thank you.
Thank you.
If I could actually follow up on that,
I think there's a really important point there
that hasn't been real well addressed in the media,
and that was you said you acted,
not to reveal a specific illegality,
but to end a war,
to basically correct failures of policies
that were costing lives,
that were costing us the future of our country
at a critical moment where things could be changed,
where we could step back sort of from the brink
and enjoy a better society.
And I think people need to remember
that these stories that are being published by journalists,
the journalists are working together with their editors,
with their institutions,
to really analyze whether these things
are in the public interest,
whether they will benefit us as a society to know,
and not publish things that are just gossip
or they don't have a significant justification
for going into the public domain.
Since these stories were revealed,
we not only learned sort of the new truth of our world
about the fact that all of our communications
are being intercepted, collected, analyzed,
and stored automatically,
and that means that all of our ideas,
all of our thoughts, all of our expressions,
all of our associations,
who we talk to, who we meet, who we love, who we hate,
all of these things are now subordinated
to the officials, to the policies
of a few guys behind closed doors,
and we don't know, we can't hold them to account.
They don't answer to us.
They don't even answer to the full body of Congress.
There are only eight members in Congress,
they're called the Gang of Eight,
who get fully briefed on these intelligence programs.
And interestingly, the intelligence committees
that are supposed to oversee these programs
these guys who have access to classified information,
they receive more money from actually all of them,
every single member of this committee
receives money from the top 20 intelligence companies
in the United States.
And they also receive more money from these companies
than any other members in Congress.
In fact, a single one of these congressmen,
his name is Dutch Ruppersberger,
received over 350 grand from these companies alone.
That's not all of his donations,
that's just from these top 20 companies.
So when we think about the revelations,
when we think about the fact that we've learned
what's going on, when we have an ability to debate it,
when we have the ability to correct this overreach,
when we have the ability to protest
unconstitutional activities that never should have begun,
but we also have a broader civic understanding
of how our government works.
We see that the most senior officials in government
have been lying under oath.
They've been making false statements to Congress,
for example, James Clapper, but not just Congress.
It's not just the lies we know of.
There are other ones that didn't get as much attention.
For example, the Department of Justice,
the Solicitor General of the United States,
he lied to the Supreme Court twice in writing,
and it was in the New York Times.
But, you know, this didn't become the front-page news
that persists and we respond to.
But it was a direct revelation
that came out on the newspaper on June 7th,
was when we found out that people had been surveilled.
To dial back, because it gets technical
in terms of surveillance authorities,
what happened is the government was using
warrantless surveillance to collect evidence
to justify warrant applications for warranted surveillance.
That's a violation of both the Fourth and the Fifth Amendment
for people who are keeping score.
And what's interesting is they didn't report this to the courts
and they didn't report this to defendants,
but then they later told the Supreme Court that they were,
and it turned out that was untrue.
If we don't know these kind of things,
we don't know our government.
We have to be able to know not just what governments do,
but how they act in order to decide
how closely we need to scrutinize their behaviors.
If we didn't have whistleblowers like you, like Tom Drake,
and like everybody else who's come forward at tremendous risks,
we would have a less open, less free, and less accountable society.
And because of that, I think it's worth taking risks to do this.
And it's not just what's illegal.
The scandal is what is legal.
The scandal is what's happening every day,
the unconstitutional activities that are still occurring right now.
The fact that we look at, for example,
one of the things that's been talked about a lot is how to fix this.
The fact that the most, the least controversial problem
in terms of do we end it, does this do nothing,
is Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
And Section 215 of the Patriot Act basically says that,
hey, we can collect the call records, metadata records,
from everybody in the country,
regardless of whether they are suspected of any crime, any wrongdoing.
And we have to ask, you know, what does that do?
Why are they doing this? What is the value?
Because if you encrypt communications, right, they don't get anything out of that.
This is just the signaling records.
This is like what a private eye collects.
Who you meet, who you talk to, when it happened, where it was at.
Not the exact content of what was said during these calls.
So encryption protects the content, but we forget about associations.
And that's what this is about.
These programs like Section 215, mass surveillance in general,
is not about surveilling you.
It's not about surveilling me.
It's about surveilling us, collectively.
It's about watching the company for everybody in the country,
and on a global scale.
This is basically a big data program,
which provides the raw data that can then be analyzed,
it can be filtered, it can be subjected to rules,
for example, like we've seen in this case before,
that says everything you do is being analyzed.
It's being weighted.
It's being measured.
And that's without regard to whether or not you've done anything wrong.
So when people say, you know, why does this matter?
Why do I care?
You know, why should I get up off the couch?
It's because, again, when we think about this in terms of the Fourth
and Fifth Amendment, you know, it's an unreasonable seizure,
because there's nothing to justify doing it.
It happens in advance of any criminal suspicion.
Or the due process violations under the Fifth Amendment,
where the government is basically saying,
we're going to use warrantless surveillance to collect evidence
to then secretly use to get a warrant application.
Or the First Amendment violations of our freedom to associate.
Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of the press,
freedom of speech, or our right to associate,
to enjoy the company of whoever we want.
If you let go of your rights for a moment, you've lost them for a lifetime.
And that's why this matters, is because it happened,
and we didn't know about it.
We weren't told about it.
In the post-September 11th period, we had programs set up like StellarWind
that collected all of our Internet metadata, all of our calling metadata.
It was creating a massive, deep, robust data set that allows us to look at
connections and actually programmatically analyze the connections of everybody
at every place all the time.
And I think that's not what this country is about.
I think that's a fundamentally un-American thing.
And I think we, the people, you, the people, you in this room right now,
have both the means and the capability to help build a better future
by encoding our rights into the programs and protocols upon which we rely every day.
And that's what a lot of my future work is going to be involved in,
and I hope that you will join me and the Freedom of the Press
and every other organization in making that a reality.
Thank you.
APPLAUSE
Yeah, so I should mention both Dan Ellsberg and now Ed Snowden
are on Freedom of the Press Foundation's Board of Directors,
and we really want to make it our goal to help journalists and sources
and everyone connect in a way that can be protected from the government's eyes
and essentially protect our right to privacy and freedom of speech.
And so I think that brings me to my next question for Ed,
and this comes from one of the Ask Snowden questions on Twitter,
is what specifically can designers and developers and others working in technology
start to do to make things better?
And are there specific examples out there that you would like to see people follow?
So when I talk about this, it's always difficult,
because it's entirely dependent on the threat model of the individual who's operating.
You know, a gam-gam in the home has a different set of priorities
than somebody who's working to report on the malfeasance
of a deeply irresponsible government in an authoritarian regime.
And so generally when I talk about this, I say encryption.
I say encryption, encryption, encryption,
because it's an important first step that denies the government access
to anything more typically than suspicion, which is drawn from association.
But when we talk about how we fix this stuff for the future,
we've got to realize that association is often the problem.
It doesn't end at encryption. It starts at encryption.
Because if you don't think about the links, sort of the signals that are happening,
when I email you, and the government can't read the content of the communication,
but they go, you know, why is an employee of the government
who was at work on Thursday at the Central Intelligence Agency
or the National Security Agency or the FBI,
who works on programs which would be deeply embarrassing to the government,
why are they contacting someone at the Freedom of Press Foundation
or the Washington Post or the New York Times?
And so we get tools like SecureDrop, which are good
because they allow us to use mixed routing networks like Tor
to sort of obfuscate our direct network path.
But we've got to think about the fact that today
if people are connecting through a phone, that's not super helpful
because the phone, for example, sees that you're connecting to Tor.
It sees you're a Tor user.
A good example of this, or really a bad example in terms of OPSEC,
is this recent American spy who was discovered in Germany.
He was apparently, allegedly in the newspapers,
spying for the United States against Germany.
He then, I guess, wasn't satisfied with what was going on.
So he said, hey, I'm going to shop myself to what I think are the Russians
because he got an email. He was using Gmail, by the way.
Great, great OPSEC there.
He got an email that could clearly be the Russian embassy.
And they said, hey, you want to sell some documents?
He said, oh, yeah, sure, sure.
And he sent them three classified documents.
Now, this is an email.
I don't know whether it's encrypted or non-encrypted.
That hasn't really been covered in detail.
But the key is the adversary that was on the distant end of the communication,
in this case German counterintelligence for his model,
although he's actually allegedly a spy.
He's not interested in public interest.
What's funny is the fact that when he did this,
he was the only one who had access to these documents
who was out of the office at the time,
who took the day off to send this email.
So, again, we're not talking about the most sophisticated guy in the world,
but this is the kind of thing you have to worry about
in terms of how do governments discover their adversaries?
And the same techniques they use to discover spies,
they use to discover journalists.
You know, the Risen case and the Rosen case,
both of these are journalists in the United States where, for example,
the government was trying to get James Risen,
a New York Times reporter, to reveal his source,
or they were subpoenaing an AP reporter, I believe,
all of the phones in their office to say who from the government
called the Associated Press.
These are associational records.
They didn't get the content of the calls,
but they were trying to figure out what was going on.
When we think about how we fix these programmatically,
when we think about these in terms of protocols,
we need to have protocols that are resistant to traffic analysis
and need to be padded, basically,
even if there's some level of performance penalty.
So you can't look at differences in, for example, Skype conversations
and tell which phoneme or word was spoken
based on packet size, the signaling speed, so on and so forth.
You also need to use some sort of mixed routing,
some sort of shared infrastructure
that divorces the individual connection
from the individual origination point.
And that's still a hard problem.
We haven't solved that in sort of a performance-respective manner.
Tor does a really good job, but Tor is also TCP-only.
It doesn't handle UDP and a lot of other things like that.
But this is something that's better to really get down
and have everybody get in together, sort of red team.
If somebody pitches an idea,
and the other people in the community, whether that's Twitter,
whether that's a mailing list, they tear it down.
It's the peer-review model.
That's how we do these things and we fix it.
We need people to attack these systems.
We need people to work as adversaries to try to find holes
so we can fix them.
And there's also the user experience issue.
For example, GPG is robust and pretty reliable encryption.
Unfortunately, it's damn near unusable.
I mean, it's fine if you're comfortable with command line.
It's fine if you're good with key management.
But again, gam-gam at the home
is never going to be able to do that sort of thing.
We need encryption, mixed routing.
We need non-attributable communications
or unattributable Internet access, UIA, for example,
that's available to people.
It's easy, it's transparent, and it's reliable
that we can use not just here in the United States but around the world
because, again, this is a global problem.
The National Security Agency, the FBI, these guys led the way
because we've got the biggest budgets and we're the most aggressive.
But we're only the first.
We're not the last.
This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
And we have to, you know, the grad students of the world
have to be thinking about what they can do to fix this.
They need to think in adversarial terms.
They need to think about how are the worst people on Earth
going to try to subvert and break your system
to not just damage individuals but to damage governments,
to shield themselves from oversight and accountability.
And what can you do?
What do you know?
What can you think up to help shield us from that?
And the techniques are only limited by our imagination.
Thank you.
Okay.
I hope people are taking notes here or in the darkness
or texting the suggestion.
He's giving you your marching orders.
Okay.
They know this stuff.
All right, that was an excerpt from Edward Snowden at Hope X a year ago, July,
giving the keynote address.
Wow, what a talk that was.
What an event that was.
I could just listen to that forever, and I wish we could play the whole thing here.
But, you know, you can get the whole thing along with every other keynote address
that we have had at every Hope conference since 1994
and a bunch of other talks as well by calling 212-209-2950
and pledging either $50 for the DVD set or $75 for the flash drive.
And again, we were having trouble before with the premiums,
but they are all in stock now.
Please give us a call in the last couple of minutes of this extended program.
We are not going to be on next week.
We'll be on in two weeks, and we'd like to see a last-minute burst.
212-209-2950.
We want to give a special thanks to the people who did call back
after the problem was fixed and pledged, and we have a few of those
and some people who probably just tried for the first time later in the show,
but there's still a few minutes left.
212-209-2950.
You pledged for the Hope Archives DVD collection.
That's $50.
The Hope Archives thumb drive, which is $75 and includes all the DVDs
plus some extra special talks,
and really there's nothing like this collection of material anywhere.
To have it all in one place, there will be stuff you learn from this.
There will be stuff you hate, but I think it will be worth it.
All right, we are out of time.
I want to thank everybody who called in,
and thank those of you who have your finger on push buttons or dials or whatever
and are calling 212-209-2950 to keep Off The Hook on the air
here on WBAI New York.
It's 9 o'clock.
Something else will be coming up right after this,
and you can write to us, othat2600.com.
We'll be back in two weeks.
Good night.
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