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Thank you. And you're listening to WBAI New York. The time is seven o'clock. Time once
again for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call. We couldn't get much worse. But if they could, they would. I'm
Diddly Bum for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. I'm Diddly Bum.
I'm Diddly Bum.
I'm Diddly Bum.
I'm Diddly Bum.
All right, we've killed about enough time here. We're trying to make a phone call, which
Believe it or not, in the 21st century here at WBAI is a challenge.
This is Off the Hook.
Emanuel Goldstein here with you.
Joined tonight by Mike.
Hi there.
Rob T.
Firefly.
Good evening.
Bernie S.
Are you with us?
You see, this is part of the problem that, um, um, he has to make the phone call for
us because we're not able to make the phone call from here, apparently.
Um,
Is this a long distance call?
It's a long distance call, which I was assured at the beginning of the program
would work.
Uh, unfortunately I didn't test it on the very instrument we were going to
use until just before the show.
I'm so sorry.
Um, and we seem to have lost Bernie.
Bernie, are you with us?
No, he's not there.
I don't know what happened here.
Actually, you know what?
That's the wrong color.
This, this phone line is the wrong color.
And now it's, now it's not on at all.
It just winked out.
Hopefully we'll hear, we had this so well planned out.
Unreal.
Unreal.
Okay.
Well, we have, uh, we have some stories and updates and things like
that, uh, to, um, uh, move us along while we're working out our technical issues.
Uh, this is off the hook.
We're back on the air.
We're not asking for money tonight, although you might be able to
see why we desperately need it.
Um, we have all kinds of, um, interesting things coming up.
Uh, let me tell you about something that's happening in a week,
a week and a couple of days.
Um, as you know, the HOPE Conference is underway.
It's, it's not underway, but the planning for it is, is well underway.
Uh, it's taking place July 18th, 19th and 20th, Hotel Pennsylvania,
New York City.
Uh, we've already had a phenomenal response as far as a speaker submissions,
people pre-registering, things like that.
Um, but, uh, we would like to get more people involved in the actual
coordination of the conference because many people ask, how can I get involved?
And we figured we'd have a, um, a method for people to do this.
So the next 2600 meeting, which will be a week from this coming Friday,
uh, I believe it's April the, um, Oh, hang on.
Uh, the fourth.
Is that right, Rob?
You seem to know these things.
Uh, I believe it's the fifth.
Is it the fifth?
Okay.
I think the fourth.
Well, you know what?
You guys can debate that.
Whatever Friday, uh, first Friday of the month.
I think it's the fourth.
Um, will happen, um, um, at the Citigroup Center here in New York City.
And, um, we are inviting people to come to that meeting if they're interested
in, uh, helping out with, uh, HOPE coordination.
Um, now that's in New York City, obviously for people who are local, it's, it's easier.
Uh, those of you who aren't local, there'll be other opportunities
for you to get involved as well.
But, uh, for now we're going to have our, our first big coordinating
meeting, uh, in, in New York City, uh, on Friday, the 4th of April.
It's the 4th.
I confirmed.
Around 5, 6 PM Citigroup Center.
That's on 53rd street between Lexington and, um, and park.
I'm glad I found this out now and didn't show up on Saturday.
Well, uh, yeah, I think we show up on Friday regardless of what the date is.
So, uh, that's, that's how it's going to, uh, work as far as that goes.
So we basically meet in the lobby of the atrium was there's room for many people
there and, um, and, and that's, um, that's how we've coordinated things in the past.
So we're looking forward to that.
Um, I'm going to try and find Bernie because he seems to have fallen
into a telco hell or, or, or whatever.
This is amazing how, how things can get so messed up so quickly.
Um, do you guys have anything to talk about while I, while I do
this or should I play some music?
There, there's lots going on.
Um, I don't know what we're going to talk about later, but, uh, did you
hear Obama is going to, uh, end mass dragnet surveillance?
He's going to end it.
That's what he says.
But of course the New York times of all entities, editorialize, you know, if he
wanted to, he could just do it tomorrow.
He doesn't need, uh, Congress to help, but he's submitting a bill to the Congress
anyway, to, uh, his way of ending dragnet surveillance is to, uh, to legalize it.
So I'm not sure exactly how that works.
Oh, well, that makes perfect sense because wait, so he's going
to end it by legalizing it.
Yes, apparently.
So he's, he's got this crazy idea that, uh, that only two hops away.
So if, if there's a suspected terrorist, which is not the same thing as an actual
terrorist or a convicted terrorist or anything else, but if there's a suspected
terrorist, um, then people who that person calls can be surveilled and people who
that, who they call can also be surveilled.
Um, and as our friend, uh, Matt Blaze pointed out, this means that, you know,
like if you've called American airlines, you are two hops away from the nine 11
people who are actual terrorists, not just merely suspected terrorists.
So it's, it, it's a huge number of people who are going to be covered by this
thing that Obama says is okay.
And, uh, and apparently they're going to get access to more telecom carriers than
they had under the secret program.
And this is Obama's way of ending dragnet surveillance.
It's really, I'm impressed at his way with words, but not much else here.
Well, that makes a certain kind of sense.
If you want to end something illegal happening, all you have to do is make it
legal.
Um, but I, I'm not sure, uh, what else this is going to achieve that's in any way
good for the, for the people that are, that are being surveilled unjustly.
I mean, there's, there's always some benefit to, to knowing what's going on.
Um, bringing bad things into the light is, is, you know, a little bit better than
just doing them in secret, but that's, that's the only benefit I see here.
And Snowden already did that.
Let's be clear.
This is only happening because Snowden.
Um, but, but that's the only benefit that I've, I can find.
Well, something else that's happening, uh, because of Ed Snowden, and this is
actually an honor, something that, uh, I know many people have been working at for,
for a number of years.
And, uh, it's, it's kind of, it brings a tear to my eye that, that this actually
succeeded for, um, a number of years, uh, reporters without borders has had a list
of enemies of the internet and, um, favorites like Syria, Iran, North Korea,
Russia, they've always been on this thing.
This year, this year, the United States made it onto the list of the eight biggest
enemies of the internet and the United Kingdom.
And they're crediting much of this with the Snowden leaks or crediting the
Snowden leaks with, uh, with this honor.
Uh, India also made it this year.
So did China.
So, um, yeah, the award ceremony for this is really going to be, um, very touching.
It's the first time the U S has earned reporters without borders dubious honor.
Did you say there's only eight enemies of the internet?
These are the top eight.
I guess everybody can offend it in some way, but you know, eight
is, uh, that's, that's pretty good.
I don't know how we rank on the, I don't know if they, if they rank it by, by
number, uh, but, uh, we're, we're up there.
We're up there.
And that's something, something definitely for many people that I know
personally will be proud of this.
Bernie, are you with us?
I'm here and I have Eva Galperin with EFF on the line, I believe too.
Eva, yeah, it's been no end of trouble trying to reach you from our, from our
system here, uh, we were just getting a fast busy when we tried calling
California, so either all circuits are out or our system just doesn't
want to get through to California.
Uh, Eva from, from EFF, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Uh, and what you guys do is, is really, um, uh, it's mind boggling.
Uh, I just read the story about reporters without borders, uh, monitoring
the United States on the internet and, and the enemy level that, uh, our, our
current government, uh, has, has achieved.
Uh, but this is the kind of thing that you encounter pretty much every day, right?
Oh, absolutely.
Um, I actually thought one of the most interesting things about, uh, the
reporters without borders enemies of the internet list, uh, is who was missing.
Uh, not that they have finally gotten around to adding the U S and the UK, uh,
in addition to the sort of mainstays that we see on there every year, like China or
Iran.
Um, but, um, I was very surprised, uh, not to see Turkey this year.
Um, admittedly, this was, uh, somewhat, uh, before the, uh, the Twitter ban.
Uh, but Turkey has been, uh, violating its citizens' rights, uh, to free expression
by blocking Google sites and arresting journalists who post online, uh, for
years, um, I was not to see Jordan, uh, which initiated a ban on one 300 news
sites this year, um, and those sites remain blocked, uh, and also countries
like, uh, Morocco, uh, which has also been engaged in a whole lot of blocking
and arresting of journalists.
You see, the problem is, is only eight, eight, uh, eight entries.
It would be great if everybody could win, but with only eight posts being
offered in this particular, they need to expand it.
They really do.
They, it needs to be 80.
Yeah, it's just too few.
Um, because yes, all those countries should be on there and many more too.
Absolutely.
Well, how do we quantify, uh, the rankings on this list anyway?
Well, uh, it's, it's largely subjective, which is why I use why you see, uh, so
much disagreement about who and which should not be on it.
Um, but I definitely think that, uh, the countries that are engaged in, uh, in
broad-based, uh, internet censorship and, uh, arresting, uh, journalists engaged
in independent journalism and what we usually think of as, you know, fully
protect freedom of expression should earn a high place on this list.
Absolutely.
Um, you mentioned Turkey.
We're going to talk about Turkey in just a moment.
But first I wanted to, um, uh, tell people about something else that we're
doing next week, which is pretty exciting in conjunction, uh, with the electronic
frontier foundation and the hope conference coming up this, um, this July,
starting at the beginning of April, April 1st, until April 30th, every ticket that
we sell, we will be donating 10% of the price to the electronic frontier foundation.
So what that means is if you get a, a ticket to attend the conference and you
buy that during the month of April, uh, you'll be not only getting a ticket to
the conference, but you'll be making a donation to the electronic frontier
foundation at the same time, which I could not think of a better way, uh, to
voice your support for the kinds of things that we talk about week after week,
the, the, the, the struggles that people are involved in as far as, uh, uh,
fighting for freedom of speech, uh, getting, uh, internet access and, and,
um, and, and equality spread fairly evenly in various parts of the world and
just making people aware of the many things going on.
Because, uh, if you go to EFF.org, you will see how many of these, uh, cases
and, um, and, and, um, the countries that are involved in all sorts of, uh, of,
um, controversies involving freedom of speech, internet access, uh, telephony.
Um, it's, it's mind boggling.
And this is one way to make sure that, uh, that particular, um, that
particular door is always open.
Um, so if you are, if you get a ticket between April 1st and April 30th to,
um, the HOPE conference and you can go to, uh, www.hope.net for more information
on that, uh, you will be making a donation at the same time.
And I think, uh, Eva, we did this, uh, two years ago as well.
Is that correct?
Yes, yes, we did.
And it turned out pretty well then as well.
So, uh, that's starting next week, but Eva, I wanted to bring up the turkey
thing because yes, this is something that's, uh, that's been in the news.
Uh, there is, um, a ban on, on Twitter.
Actually, is the ban on Twitter in Turkey still in place?
Has it been, uh, um, gotten around or, or, or rescinded?
Um, not yet.
As of right now, it is still not possible to, uh, to reach Twitter if you are in
Turkey without engaging in some form of censorship circumvention, the good news
is that Turkey has been involved in sort of widespread censorship of popular
websites for such a long time.
Censorship circumvention is absolutely nothing new to the Turkish people.
And, um, almost everybody knows how to do it.
Uh, earlier, uh, last week, a lot of people were simply, uh, using, uh, Google's
DNS, and I don't know if you saw any of the graffiti that was going around.
8.8.8.8.
That's, that's there.
That's the DNS.
I never thought that I would see the, the fantastic cyberpunk future in which
people would graffiti, uh, DNS servers, IPs on walls, uh, to enable censorship
circumvention.
Well, it's almost, it's easy enough where you can just remember that obviously,
and the need for graffiti isn't even there anymore.
Uh, but isn't it a relatively simple thing for, uh, for the powers that be
to simply block that somehow?
And then they did.
Uh, and furthermore, they went ahead and they blocked, uh, many of Twitter's
IPs, and that made it a little bit harder, uh, to, uh, to get to Twitter.
Um, but it, you know, barely slowed people in Turkey down because almost
everybody knows how to use a proxy or a VPN or Tor.
And Tor is still, you know, uh, the number one tool that I recommend to most
people for censorship circumvention, because, uh, it is much, much harder to
block than just about anything else.
How, okay.
How can people get involved in that to start with?
Someone listening right now, hearing of Tor for the first time.
Well, uh, there are a couple of things they can do.
If they want to use Tor, uh, or become part of the Tor network, they should go
to www.torproject.org.
Um, if they would like to use the Tor browser, they can
download the Tor browser there.
If they would like to contribute to the strength and speed of the Tor network,
uh, they should read the Tor legal FAQ.
And if they feel sort of prepared to do so, uh, I, I strongly
encourage people to, uh, to run a relay.
And let me also point out Tor is spelled T-O-R.
Um, that stand, or it did stand for the onion router.
Is that correct?
Yes, Tor is also the German word for gate.
Nice.
That worked out very well.
Um, you know, a few years ago, Tor was something that very few people use, but
now we're talking about, um, populations in, in, in other countries using it as a
way to get around, um, government censorship and, and, and, um, attempts to
control things.
First of all, what, what led to this in Turkey?
Why did they go ballistic over the fact that Twitter existed?
Well, there are a couple of reasons, but the, the sort of excuse that the Erdogan
government is using is, uh, that there were some tweets about government
corruption, which, uh, they wanted, uh, which they wanted taken down.
And, uh, there was a user, uh, who's, uh, identifying information.
There was an anonymous user that they wanted unmasked.
And so they sent these legal requests to Twitter and Twitter, which does not have
an office in Turkey and is therefore not, uh, not obliged to follow Turkish law,
uh, basically said, well, tough luck.
Uh, eventually, I think as of yesterday, uh, Twitter did give in a little bit and,
uh, instituted a per country block on the offending tweets, meaning that
if you are in Turkey, you can no longer read the two offending tweets that, uh,
the Erdogan government complained about.
Um, however, if you are in Turkey, you also can't read the rest of Twitter.
So, uh, this is sort of not a, not a terribly, um, effective move.
Uh, they still have not unmasked, uh, the information of the anonymous user.
And I don't think that they intend to do so.
Um, so we'll see how long this standoff continues for certainly
through the upcoming election.
Hey Eva, do we know what these two horrible tweets said?
Wait, wait, wait, don't say it or our show will get banned in Turkey.
They can do that.
Right?
I mean, it's, it's, you can't even save these.
First of all, couldn't this, and it could come from anywhere.
It doesn't have to be in Turkey.
Somebody in the United States could tweet about Turkish government.
How are they going to react against that?
Absolutely.
Uh, and, and that is one of the great concerns.
It's, you know, just who, who controls this platform and, uh, whose laws apply.
Uh, which is one of the reasons why, uh, Twitter and, and also Google have these
sort of per country takedowns, which allows them to sort of follow the law in
one place while not necessarily banning the content for all of the other countries
in which, uh, in which that content is still perfectly legal.
And that also makes it very easy to see the content by using some sort of
censorship circumvention technology.
Now, do you happen to know, uh, what was said in those two tweets?
What, what could possibly get somebody so upset in, in two lines of text?
I don't have the exact translation, but it was, uh, it was a reference
to a, uh, to a corruption scandal.
Amazing.
Um, well, I imagine that's, uh, being retweeted everywhere and, uh, you know,
you could just scroll that on a wall pretty easily.
It's not very many characters.
Yes, but I think that people really, uh, really misunderstand, uh, what
is going on in Turkey right now.
Uh, that this is not necessarily about, um, about drawing attention away from
the scandal or silencing discussion of this one particular scandal in, in
Turkish politics, and it is not a failure just because people are able to
circumvent censorship or because people still know about the scandal.
Uh, really this is about the Erdogan government, uh, trying to, uh, reframe
their relationship with social media and frame social media to their, their
largely conservative base as, uh, as something that is evil that we have to
protect our, our, our people against rather than as a sort of empowering,
uh, platform for communication.
And in that sense, you could, you could say that this ban has actually
been somewhat successful.
Now, what is, uh, EFF's role in all of this?
Oh, well, we've done a couple of things.
We've, uh, we've definitely kept track of, of the story and we've, we've
written about it extensively, including providing a lot of political context
and sort of trying to talk about what, uh, what the Erdogan regime is trying to do.
Uh, and also we have, uh, provided technical advice.
So back when, when people were able to use, uh, Google DNS, we said, Hey, you
could use Google DNS, uh, when it was no longer possible to use Google
DNS to circumvent, uh, censorship.
We gave people advice on other things that they could do, uh, such as using Tor.
So, uh, we've, we've sort of, uh, made use of, of our reputation as a trusted
source of technical advice, as well as of, uh, of political commentary and context.
Aren't there also alternative ways of doing the same thing that Twitter does?
Aren't there other services that people can use?
Um, absolutely.
Uh, there are, there are services which provide the equivalent to Twitter.
Um, but I think that much like there are services that provide the equivalent
to Facebook or the equivalent to, to YouTube, uh, people go where the people
are, uh, and, and so simply telling them you, you can get your word out on some
other services, usually not very useful advice.
Interesting.
Now, I imagine this is not something that's isolated to Turkey.
In fact, I'm looking at a story right now, uh, from Saudi Arabia, a couple of
weeks ago, two men found guilty in Saudi courts for, uh, offensive
messages they posted on Twitter.
One, one man was sentenced to 10 years in prison for using Twitter to encourage
protest, undermine the country's leadership.
Um, the accused had sent invitations via Twitter to participate in protest and
gather, uh, gatherings against the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Uh, now in that case, Twitter was not restricted.
Someone used Twitter and then they were prosecuted for using Twitter.
So this kind of thing is not really that uncommon, is it?
No, not at all.
You also see it in, um, in countries like the UAE, uh, where, uh, where a man was
arrested for having, uh, tweeted, uh, some sort of opposition sentiment about, uh,
about the king.
Uh, this, this does in fact happen, uh, in, in many countries and, and this
is a very serious problem.
Does it happen here in other ways?
Uh, well, we, we do see it in the United States when people, uh, tweet, uh,
threats, uh, the same sort of, you know, the same sort of speech that can get you
into trouble, uh, if you were to make it in, uh, in person will get you into
trouble if you, uh, if you tweet it to the internet.
Um, furthermore, there was a, a gentleman in, uh, in the UK, I think it was, uh,
last year who, uh, who tweeted a joke about bombing an airport.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
We reported on that.
Yes.
To court.
So, um, certainly the, uh, governments are watching what people say on Twitter.
We have plenty of evidence to show that the, the NSA is monitoring, uh, both what
we say publicly and privately in social media, um, presumably for, uh, anti
government or, uh, pro-violence sentiment.
Uh, and there's no reason to think that this is not happening in other
countries, sometimes in much more blatant ways than we see here.
Well, we also had the case, uh, where, uh, related to WikiLeaks, uh, Jacob
Applebaum and, uh, Birgitta Johnstarter, uh, had their, their tweets, um,
subpoenaed by the United States.
Is that, is that what it was done?
They tried to get the...
Um, actually the, uh, yes, they got the tweets, but the tweets were already public.
I know.
Like, I can't understand why...
It wasn't the tweets.
Uh, it was, uh, their, it was, uh, their IP addresses and their, uh, geolocation
at the time that they tweeted the various tweets, uh, and also their direct
messages, which were not public.
Ah, okay.
Yes.
Well, uh...
The, uh, the government subpoenaed this information.
Twitter fought them.
Uh, EFF, uh, represented Birgitta, Birgitta Johnstarter, but I think
in the end we lost the case.
Interesting.
Wow.
Uh, so, uh, quite a bit, uh, going on just with Twitter.
We're just talking about Twitter in the opening minutes here, but, uh, EFF
is involved in so much more.
Is there, uh, a case you'd like to, uh, focus some attention on?
Well, sure.
I think that there's, uh, there's one particular case that I
think, uh, deserves a little love.
Uh, a few weeks ago, uh, EFF filed a lawsuit against, uh, the state of
Ethiopia, uh, the first, uh, first, uh, first suit of its kind.
Uh, this was the result of our, our long standing collaboration, uh, with
the Citizen Lab in the area of malware research.
Uh, we found a gentleman who goes by the pseudonym of Kidani, uh, who is a
member of the Ethiopian diaspora who lives in, uh, in the Washington DC area.
And he turned out to have had his computer infected, uh, with FinSpy,
which is a surveillance, um, spyware, uh, built by a European company, a
company, uh, based in both the UK and in Germany called FinFisher.
Uh, and that, uh, that surveillance malware sent information back to a
command control server in Ethiopia, uh, located in Ethiopian IP space.
So we had some, some pretty solid evidence that, uh, the Ethiopian
government was spying on this, um, on this member of the diaspora who, uh,
was a sort of opposition figure.
And, uh, we have sued the Ethiopian government for violating the wire
tapping act, because we have evidence that they spied on several of his Skype
conversations as well as on his, uh, Google, uh, web searches.
And, uh, in the United States under US law, uh, that is illegal.
So, uh, we're, we're going to go and try to hold them responsible.
Interesting.
I noticed that EFF is getting involved in a lot of global cases lately.
Uh, not just things that are confined to our own borders.
Is that, is that something new or is something you've always
pretty much been involved in?
Not something that we have always been involved in, but, uh, our, our
international team has definitely, uh, expanded over the years, uh, from sort
of, uh, just one, uh, intrepid Cory Doctorow who's sitting in a room and
somewhere in Canada, uh, to a, a reasonably sized team, but also the
internet is, uh, is much more global than it was a few years ago.
Uh, internet use in the rest of the world has gone up and, uh, surveillance
has sort of come up with it.
Um, mostly as, uh, surveillance tools become, uh, more and more trivially, uh,
cheap for governments to purchase.
Uh, they become more tempted to use them to, uh, to spy on journalists and
activists and to commit human rights abuses.
Is there something you can point to inside our country that we should be
following or we only have, we only have, uh, an hour, but, um, I don't know.
So what do you think is one of the most important cases?
Uh, well, uh, a couple of different things.
I mean, I would definitely recommend following, uh, Weave's, uh, CFA appeal.
Yeah.
In fact, Bernie, Bernie, you were there last week at that case, were you not?
Yeah.
I was just talking with Eva about that.
I was there last week.
Uh, there were several EFF attorneys and friends there, probably about 50 or 60
people showed up, uh, from the hacker community and, uh, it was really
interesting, uh, unfortunately, only really the third circuit panel only
really wanted to hear about, uh, a venue, uh, arguments, not about, uh,
the specific statutory language of the, uh, CFA, which, uh, people are
arguing is unconstitutionally vague, but, um, the venue issues are really
important too, you don't want to overzealous prosecutor to be able to
reach into another jurisdiction to say, Hey, you violated community standards
here or whatever, at least at the state or local level.
Well, the venue, the venue argument is basically what we can do right now.
But as far as the case itself, there are really some important issues that
were brought about by the fact that this guy's in prison now and really
never should have been sent there.
Is that correct, Eva?
Absolutely.
Um, I, I think that no matter how you feel about Weave, uh, anybody who has
ever, uh, I don't know, uh, anybody who has ever gone to a URL that was not
being generally linked to on the internet, uh, or who has gotten to other
accounts through incrementing any, a URL, um, has a great deal of interest
in making sure that this is not a CFA, a violation that will land them
three and a half years in jail.
Interesting.
There's a key phrase in this all, and it's, it's the term unauthorized access.
And what does that mean?
Who gets to, who gets to decide what is unauthorized?
Can the, can the federal government decide what's off?
And I mean, there's too many, there's too many cooks in the, in the kitchen
here, as far as to decide what constitutes unauthorized access and
without really defining it specifically, it puts everybody at risk on the
internet for doing something that, uh, may be unauthorized, but not known to them.
I'm certainly not, uh, not in favor of leaving the interpretation up to Apple.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or any of those powerful entities.
Uh, Eva, can, can you, can you point to some legislation maybe that's, um, being
drawn up now that, uh, is going to pose a threat to us a couple of years down the
road or a couple of months down the road?
Well, I can actually point, uh, to, uh, some, to some potentially good
legislation, which is, uh, which may be coming down the road.
Whoa.
That's a discussion.
Yeah.
There is actually some discussion in the Obama administration right now of, uh,
ending the, uh, mass, uh, collection of metadata of phone records, uh, of the
sort that is the basis of our lawsuit against the NSA, um, especially in the,
in the Verizon case.
So on one hand, our case might fall apart.
On the other hand, we win.
Uh, so I'm extremely excited about that.
That is a level of reform.
We were, we were not sure that we would ever get to.
And certainly the, uh, the discussions are not over.
Uh, but the fact that this is even on the table right now and that people in
Washington are seriously considering it is, is I think very good news.
Well, was that not simply, um, uh, transferring it from the government to
the companies?
They would still keep this information, but it wouldn't be the government doing
it.
Is that what Obama's proposing?
Uh, that is one version of the proposal.
Okay.
I, I think that there's definitely a lot of work left to be done, but considering
we could not even get them this far, uh, as, as recently as a year ago, I think
that this is a, a sign that this note and revelations have, have really changed
the conversation, uh, in American politics.
Now you guys have gone and sued the NSA.
What is that like?
Well, it's just like suing any other government entity.
What's that like then?
Because we don't really have much experience with that.
They sue us sometimes, but, uh, the other way around.
Well, I think it's, it's very important to have a, a sort of public advocacy
organization that is willing to speak truth to power and that's willing to, uh,
to sue, uh, the government or the NSA or, you know, the attorney general, uh, when
the, when the government misbehaves and, uh, that's, that's our job.
But when you, when you sue a secret agency like the NSA, who shows up?
Uh, lawyers for the NSA.
Uh, we have, you know, sued the entire government, uh, the entire government.
So representatives of various parts of the government show up.
And are they pretty much?
The NSA does in fact have lawyers.
Are they forthcoming as far as answering questions?
Do they hide behind national security a lot?
Oh, absolutely.
They hide behind national security a lot.
And, uh, when we, when we sued AT&T over their involvement in the warrantless wire
tapping, uh, one of the arguments that AT&T and in fact the state made, uh, was
that we did not have standing to, uh, to sue because we could not prove that
there was a program because it was a state secret, uh, to which we said,
state secret, here it is like on the cover of national newspaper.
Wow.
What kind of state secret is this?
And we did in fact still lose on standing.
We filed another lawsuit, which was against the government itself
rather than against AT&T.
Um, they're, but the, um, telcos were actually so scared that we might get
somewhere with this lawsuit that they actually went to Washington DC with their
lobbyists and they got a, uh, they got a law passed, uh, an amendment to FISA,
which essentially granted them a retroactive immunity for their cooperation
in the warrantless wire tapping, uh, which they of course said they weren't
doing and they weren't cooperating in.
But just in case, Barney, did you have some questions for Eva?
I just said the whole concept of retroactive immunity is, uh,
it's just mind boggling.
It's, you know, gross abuses of, uh, of, of, of, of, of the law en masse can
just be with a broad stroke, just erase and said, well, anything you've ever
done wrong before, it's not like pardoning, like, okay, you can't do this
anymore.
It's like you're absolved for anything you've ever done before.
It's just like, so Orwellian.
How do people get deals like that?
You know, retroactive immunity, that would come in handy for a lot of things.
Well, I think you need to be a multi-billion dollar company with a lot
of money to throw around.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
If we could just arrange that, I think we'd all be set.
All right.
Putting that on my to-do list.
Go ahead, Barney.
Eva, I just want to ask, um, why do you think the Obama administration is a, is
backpedaling on this, uh, 215 collection program of, uh, of, uh, so-called
metadata of, of all Americans, uh, telephone calls?
I mean, why should they care?
What, what, what, what's the worst that could happen if, uh, if they did nothing
or do they think that, that, that there could be some serious, there's some
like actual criminal, uh, uh, charges or accountability against government
officials for doing this?
Or why would they care?
Well, uh, until the very recently they haven't.
Uh, and in fact they have, uh, they have defended this program as absolutely
necessary for national security.
They have, uh, claimed that it has actually stopped.
I think it was what, 44, um, potential terrorist plots, uh, nearly all of
which have been, uh, have been disproven.
Um, I, I think that for a very long time they have, uh, they have stood
their ground on this policy.
But, uh, nine months to almost a year of revelation after revelation, after
revelation, showing NSA abuses and, uh, showing that, uh, that most of the
checks and balances, which were originally put in place to make sure that
civil liberties were respected have essentially been, uh, co-opted and
are just rubber, rubber stamps.
Finally, the Obama administration had to move some on that.
Uh, Eva, I was, I was really curious to hear your optimism about this.
Uh, we were discussing it briefly before we managed to make the telephones work.
And I was, uh, kind of skeptical.
I thought this would be sort of window dressing, uh, legalizing
what they're already doing.
But you think there's a chance for some actual, um, reduction in the
scope of the spying through some of this legislation?
I think that we may get some, um, you know, if,
if I were a pessimist, I would have, I would have great difficulty getting
up in the morning and going to work.
I, on one hand, I have to expect the worst, but I still hope for the best.
And I acknowledge that the, the conversation has really
changed so much in the last year.
Uh, the Obama administration would not have even proposed window
dressing as recently as a year ago.
And, and I think that that is a good place to start.
Uh, we so rarely see wins, uh, in the, in the sort of fight against
the expanding scope of, uh, of government surveillance that I think
it's really important to, uh, to hold on to any indication that we have
from the government that they, that they may pull back even a little bit.
And how much of that, uh, change in overall attitude do you attribute
to Edward Snowden and his relations, his revelations?
I think a lot of it is the result of the Snowden revelations and, uh, just
story after story after story about, uh, about NSA abuses and about the scope of,
uh, of the NSA surveillance and their, uh, surveillance of Americans and
cooperation with GCHQ and other, uh, other agencies in the five eyes.
It means that if you open up a newspaper, uh, or a major national
newspaper, there is a very good chance you will see some NSA story in the news.
And I think that really does make a difference.
It, it eventually wears them down.
Even if it's just a little bit, uh, it absolutely helps.
Well, it's amazing to think that the Snowden revelations didn't even
begin until less than a year ago.
And look at how much has changed.
Imagine all the information that's been released in this last year.
Imagine us not knowing any of it because that's where we would be without Edward
Snowden and where would we be going?
What assumptions would we be making about, uh, uh, the status of surveillance
today?
We would be completely ignorant about it.
And instead we're informed, instead we're fighting the things we should be fighting.
It's, it's, it's testament to the power of one individual to, to make changes.
I think that, you know, a lot of, a lot of credit does go to Edward Snowden, but,
uh, in, you know, in the interest of sort of, uh, shedding some light on EFF's
work, uh, we've been doing this for a really long time.
Our first lawsuit against the, uh, against the, um, AT&T, uh, for this program goes
back to 2006 and we owe a lot to whistleblowers, uh, like Mark Klein, uh,
sort of the original AT&T, uh, whistleblower who I think also shed a lot of
light on this situation.
I think the primary difference between, you know, sort of the pre-Snowden and the
post-Snowden era is that, um, before Snowden, we suspected a lot of these
things were going on.
We thought we had, uh, a lot of, of evidence.
Um, but a lot of it was just, and these kinds of abuses could be happening and
we're really worried.
And what we see is just the tip of the iceberg.
But we, we had very little definitive proof and, uh, post-Snowden, uh, there's
just piles and piles and piles of proof out there.
And I think that the main thing that that's done is it has moved EFF's
position on surveillance from this sort of fringe tinfoil hat position, just,
you know, oh, you're just imagining the worst, really, they must be protecting
our liberties somewhere, um, to a very central, popular and mainstream position.
And we did not change our position at all, but the whole world moved.
Interesting.
Well, you know, Eva, you have to figure that listening to us, right?
Is that the hotline?
Is there a crisis going on somewhere?
No.
Okay.
Oh, that's your end burner.
Okay.
Um, you have to figure there are potential whistleblowers listening to us right now,
either live or on the archive, people who are in positions where they can reveal
information that could prove incredibly helpful to people who are fighting for
these things.
Eva, what would you say to somebody like that who would be concerned about what
might happen to them if they reveal information like this?
Well, there are a couple of recommendations that I would make.
Uh, one is to familiarize yourself very well with whistleblower protections,
especially since there are not really a lot of protections for people who want to
blow the whistle on, uh, on government malfeasance.
Um, I would also recommend that they take, uh, technical steps to protect
themselves rather than counting on journalists or media organizations to do
it for them.
Uh, use TOR, use PGP, be extremely careful and familiarize yourself with the
encryption and anonymity tools before you, before you move forward.
Don't count on other people to protect you.
You, you can really take these steps yourself.
You know, we were talking about how, um, uh, where we would be today without the
revelations that we've learned in the last year, but I'm also wondering where
would we be now if the Electronic Frontier Foundation was not there?
It's, uh, it's scary to think all the things, all the battles you've been
involved in over the years, uh, how crucial your voice was.
And without that, we probably would not be anywhere near where we are now, as
far as the rights that we still do have.
Well, EFF has been around for a long time.
Uh, EFF has been around since approximately 1990, which I guess is sort
of around the beginning of the web.
Um, and I would like to think that we've really shaped the way in
which things have developed.
Uh, but one of the really cool things that has happened in recent years, as
the internet has become more global, as more and more people are on it, and as
these issues become more important is that so many other organizations
have stepped up to the plate.
Um, I owe a lot to my continuing collaboration with Citizen Lab.
Uh, the ACLU does a lot of very important legal work, uh, in this area.
Uh, there are, uh, uh, organizations like Access and Privacy International in the
UK, uh, that are, uh, that are also doing this kind of digital rights work.
And, uh, I'm, I'm very glad to be in good company.
And just, uh, thinking of the, uh, conversation that's happening now that
we have this information from people like Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning,
and, uh, all these other whistleblowers who have brought out information into
the public that needs to be known for us, the public to make, uh, to make
decisions when we're having this conversation, when we're given the
opportunity to have this conversation and inform our government, how we feel
about it, um, and yet we're looking at, uh, Edward Snowden's trapped in
Russia, Chelsea Manning is in military prison, um, what, what can, uh, what
can be done as far as, uh, protecting people, um, not only for, uh,
whistleblowers to protect themselves with, uh, with things like, uh, with
things like the, the whistleblower protections, uh, available on the
technical level, like TOR and things like that, but, uh, what can be done
to sort of affect, um, better protections for whistleblowers in the,
in the, in the law, in the public sphere?
Well, certainly I would love to see, uh, greater, uh, whistleblower
protections at the federal level.
Um, I would also like to see a federal anti-SLAPP law, uh, the, uh, strategic
lawsuits against, uh, public participation.
I, I think that these are both excellent ideas and they're things that, uh, that
EFF has been pushing for for many years.
Um, but since this is a largely technical audience listening out there, uh, the,
that your best defense is crypto.
Absolutely.
Eva Galperin, we've been talking, um, with you for the last, uh, few minutes
about various things going on in the world, uh, uh, surveillance, what
the EFF has been up to.
You're the global policy analyst.
Is that, that's your title over there, right?
Yes, it is.
Wow.
That's pretty cool.
Um, and you don't have to wait by the way to donate to the
Electronic Frontier Foundation.
You don't have to wait until April to buy a hope ticket.
You can donate right now by going to, uh, EFF.org.
And there's all kinds of, uh, of, of things to read there and a way to contribute.
Is, is there anything else that, uh, Eva you'd like to give out
as far as contact information?
Um, no, I think that's about it.
Uh, just go to www.EFF.org.
And, uh, if you would like to donate, uh, go to slash support.
And you guys are going to have quite a presence at, uh, the HopeX
conference here in New York in July.
Uh, I know there's a, a number of talks that, uh, you guys are going to be giving.
Uh, there's going to be at least one table where you can get all kinds of
information and, and get involved yourself.
Uh, anything you can say to encourage people to get involved, not only in this
conference, but in, in other similar conferences around the world?
Well, uh, I will be, I will be at Hope, uh, this year and in the summer,
I will be on the Ask EFF panel.
So if people have, uh, have questions, I am happy to, uh, I'm happy to answer them.
They can contact me directly at Eva at EFF.org.
That's E-V-A at EFF.org.
So if you can remember who I am, you can remember how to get in touch with me.
Uh, we will also be at, uh, DEF CON and Black Hat this year, uh, as we are every
year and, um, EFF staff has expanded a bit.
So I think you'll be seeing us at a sort of greater variety of conferences in the
near future, which I'm definitely looking forward to.
Well, thanks for everything you guys have done.
And let's just hope that, uh, you're around for a very, very long time to keep
doing these things because we're going to need you and, uh, and, and people in
other countries are going to need similar organizations as well.
Uh, and it's, um, this is one of the, the more positive things that we can talk
about is, is how much you guys have accomplished and how much you've, uh,
you've taken on.
So thanks for that.
And, uh, we look forward to seeing you in July.
It's my pleasure.
I look forward to seeing you too.
All right.
Take care.
Eva Galperin from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
And again, this reminder, uh, we will be donating 10% of all hope ticket sales for
the month of April to the EFF.
And, um, that means if you buy a ticket to our conference taking place July 18th,
19th, and 20th at the Hotel Pennsylvania here in New York City, 10% of that cost
that 10% of the price that you pay will go directly to the Electronic Frontier
Foundation.
So you can get a ticket to the event of the year as far as the hacker world and,
uh, civil liberties and, and, and all kinds of controversial topics.
And you can also help an organization which has done so much for us.
Now, uh, Bernie, um, since that works so well, we were talking through your
BlackBerry just now, as opposed to talking through the BAI phone system.
Uh, do you think you can, you can contact our next guest if you have not already
done so?
Um, I think I'm going to have to call back and then bring them in because I can't
let go of Eva's call.
It's hanging up on my phone.
You know, it's amazing.
Okay.
You go ahead and do that.
It's amazing that, uh, in this day and age, we still have trouble disconnecting
phone calls that are three way on, on cell phones.
And, you know, if you ask somebody nine times out of 10, they will not know how
to make a three way call on their cell phone.
They really won't.
It's a, it's pretty incredible.
That's okay.
We can, uh, easily, uh, fill the time, uh, in, in, in other ways by, uh, talking
about other things that are, that are coming up, right?
We certainly can.
All right.
Oh, actually, you know what Bernie's already calling back.
So, um, well, if you can kill maybe 10 seconds, I'll try my best.
Um, yeah, if, uh, for those who would like another way to support the EFF, I found
this out recently, if you sell things on eBay, um, one of the selections you can
make to, uh, automatically support a charity with, uh, with the, uh, money
from your sale is the EFF.
So I've started doing that.
Are you still talking?
Wow.
We were already finished here.
All right.
Well, I'll continue to finish with you.
Uh, got all the information on.
Okay, good.
Uh, well, uh, joining us, uh, right now, uh, through, uh, Bernie's BlackBerry,
uh, it's, uh, somebody who's, um, who's running another conference taking place
this, um, next month, actually early next month, uh, Evan, uh, Koblenz, are you with us?
Okay.
Evan, uh, you are, uh, one of the people behind one of our favorite events.
Well, and one, I really would like to make to someday that's the vintage
computer festival happening, uh, down in, uh, New Jersey.
Is that right?
Yes, sir.
That's us now.
When is this one happening?
This year we're doing a three day show for the first time.
It's April four, five, and six, which is a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Wow.
Okay.
So, uh, you guys are getting bigger.
Well, we always had a two day show with lectures in the morning
and exhibits in the afternoon.
And, uh, a few people were bugging us for a third day.
We said, if we're going to do a third day, let's do something different.
So what we came up with for Friday, April 4th with VC at East University,
which is a separate initiative and the whole day is nothing but technical
classes, everything from how to program an assembly to how to use an oscilloscope.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm looking at the schedule.
It's, it's really interesting, interesting stuff here.
Uh, bootstrapping CPM, uh, when's the last time anyone could, uh, take a course on CPM?
I had probably 30 years.
Wow.
Uh, so tell us, tell us more.
What else is being offered?
Well, this year we have 37 exhibits, uh, with 12 technical workshops,
six lectures, and one film debut.
Uh, we're giving away a brand new oscilloscope on Friday.
That should be a big attraction.
Um, the exhibit hall itself has some really neat hacker friendly things this year.
For example, if anyone remembers the classic Commodore 64 game called artillery
duel, which is basically battleship, one person shoots, the next person
shoots back and forth, it's fun for a while, but eventually the novelty wears off.
Two of our members reprogrammed it.
So it was an eight player game and everyone can shoot at the same time.
Oh, wow.
And they're going to be debuting at our show and then open sourcing it after the show.
Running Evan, Evan, what, what will this be running on?
Running on eight Commodore 64s using custom hardware to network them.
That is awesome.
So there are eight Commodore 64s we network together with, with each player on each one.
Exactly.
And you could, you could all shoot at the same time and it's done through a custom
hardware hack somebody made to do an ethernet adapter for a C64 from 1982.
Evan, how do you get the equipment to work?
Our hobby is, you know, very analogous to antique car collecting, right?
We're not saying they're better than modern cars.
No one would argue a 57 Chevy is a better automobile than a 2005 Chevy, but it had
chrome and white walls and fins.
So people in our hobby save, rescue, steal, beg, borrow computers from the
fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties.
And we're not saying they're better than modern cars, but we're not saying they're
better than antique cars, right?
So we rescue, steal, beg, borrow computers from the fifties, sixties, seventies and
eighties and restore them and show them off just for fun.
From the fifties?
What do you have from the fifties?
Believe it or not, in our museum just last month, we acquired a 1956 vacuum tube
computer from Bendix called the G15.
Oh, wow.
That's, that's worth going down there just to see that.
How do you, how do you power that?
Uh, it would take, uh, several 30 amp sockets.
Right now we don't have enough electricity in our facility to power it.
Wow.
Okay.
That's, that's something that's a project to, uh, to, to achieve.
Um, go ahead, Bernie.
I wanted to ask, one of the amazing exhibits at this year's, uh, uh,
Bendix Computer Festival East is a, uh, is a VAX cluster.
Can you explain what that is?
I mean, I know what it is, but maybe our listeners would like to hear.
I hacked into one of those ones.
So yeah.
There's actually, uh, there's actually two different people each
bringing a VAX cluster.
Uh, VAX, the plural was Vaxen, uh, was, uh, DEC, the DEC
mini computers, uh, most popular line in the seventies and, uh, DEC, of
course, is bought by Compaq, which is bought by Hewlett Packard.
That's basically, I hate to say invented, but more or less invented the SAN.
Um, so a VAX cluster is what you best know as a SAN today.
And, uh, someone's going to be running that original software.
So you'll have, you know, maybe up to a dozen or so independent
Vaxen all networked together running what became the SAN.
Yeah.
Evan, do you think, do you think people in the future say, uh, 30 years down the
road will be proudly displaying today's computers?
Well, it's happening already.
Um, I got into it.
I'm only 39.
I got into the hobby that nine years ago, you know, I grew up on
Apple's and Converse and Atari's.
And we're already seeing younger guys in college in their twenties
talking about three to six years as, you know, Hey, retro, man.
And we kind of put our noses up with those kids, but we know
they are the future.
Uh-huh.
But I mean, the things we're using today, it just, it seems like whatever
you're using in the present doesn't have the same romance
as something from the past.
I'm just wondering if I'm just not seeing the bigger picture and
that 30 years from now, people are going to be all thrilled about, uh, you
know, the, their latest Mac or whatever.
It just seems to me like it's all over the place now.
Everybody's got one of these things, you know, as far as
Yeah, that, that takes away a certain, a certain attraction.
I do think, however, in 30 years, if somebody has the very first iPod
or the first smartphone or something along those lines, it's certainly, you
know, or those, those, you know, the first smartphone was 1992 by IBM and
Dell South and already is a collectible.
Okay.
The Simon.
The Simon.
That's exactly right.
A few other, if it's like to point out, they're definitely hacker friendly.
Um, you know, we encourage people to do the real thing, the original
thing, whatever possible at our show.
But one of our members got ahold of an IBM system three 70 front
panel, but not pressed to the computer.
So he emulated the computer for raspberry PI, and he's going to use that
to control the front panel of our show.
Oh, wow.
Um, we always have a wide assortment of Apple one replicas.
Somebody is bringing a real one for the first time this year.
If anyone remembers, Franklin Franklin was one of the many Apple two clone
companies soon to oblivion by Apple.
Um, one of the original Franklin engineers is bringing with him to our
show, several original prototypes that were never released, and they're
actually donating to our museum, which is at the facility where a show is the
original lawsuit filed against him by Apple.
Oh, wow.
Well, that'll bring back some memories, won't it?
I see on Saturday, there's a presentation, the inside story
of Franklin computer corporation.
Right.
That's being given by the president and founder of Apple Franklin.
Amazing.
And as a Viva Amiga Commodore port three Amiga till the end, a couple of Amiga
talks here, whatever happened to the Amiga?
I have fond memories of that, uh, that system.
Well, there, there's still something you can buy today.
That's basically an open source or, you know, evolution of Amiga.
It's still out there.
Um, and there's a, you, and it means it's actually got a cult following Europe.
Uh, but just like the rest of the world that we, you know, two was a two horse
race between windows and Macintosh after a while.
Um, we also have a, uh, classic Mac repair course.
I think it's Sunday.
I forget which exactly.
Um, Jason Scott, he's with the internet archive.
Oh yes.
We know, we know Jason.
Uh-huh.
Great.
He's given a lecture on our show and, um, there's going to be all
sorts of technical repair workshops.
Someone's giving a talk called how to fix your hope of the vote, how to fix
your hopelessly broken vintage computer.
Awesome.
Wow.
Uh, now how does, if somebody has something really old that they
don't know what to do with, do you guys accept donations of old equipment?
We do, but you can't just drop stuff off because we have
an upjunk of our own already.
We have about a 7,000 square foot warehouse.
Everything from, we actually have some 1940s equipment.
We have an IBM 1948, uh, punch card loader, um, all the way up to 80s.
So we do accept donations.
Uh, however, we have a consignment sale at our show.
Our show is not a swap or a flee, but we do have a consignment sale.
So if you bring something that's on topic as determined by us, you can
sell it at consignment at our show.
And we take a small percentage to benefit our club, which is
a nonprofit and you get the rest.
What is, uh, your website so people can get more information on all that?
Yup.
It's a vintage.org pretty easy.
And the first thing you'll see front and center there is VTF East 9.1.
The name is kind of fun little story.
Every year we call our show 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, because we
get to go to version numbers.
Uh, last year, our show was canceled.
We canceled it last spring because we still didn't have power after
Hurricane Sandy and we were on a generator.
Our facility is on a dirty shore, which was dead center
where we are for Hurricane Sandy.
So this year being good computer nerds, we decided to call it 9.1.
We thought that was fun.
Nice.
Now, uh, you guys are called VCF East.
That implies as a VCF West.
There was, it went on hiatus a few years ago and we're looking for someone
who's got the business sense and marketing shops and event manager
experience to bring it back.
Um, if you know anyone just ask them to email me, uh, meanwhile,
there's a VCF Midwest in Chicago.
There's a VCF Southeast in Atlanta.
There's a VCF Europa in Munich, Germany every year.
And we're open to events in Canada, Japan, South America.
Oh, there's one in the UK, uh, where, you know, we're open
to events around the world.
We want, we want to conquer the planet.
We just need people to run each one.
And of course it's a thankless job.
Hey, Evan, before you go, I wanted to mention that a lot of the
business computer festival East is done by largely by the folks at March,
the mid Atlantic retro computing hobbyist group, right?
That's right.
So March is basically to continue my earlier analogy.
We're basically the same as an antique car club.
But we're chip heads instead of your, your heads conference, all the most
recent hope conferences going back quite a few years, March has brought an amazing
interactive, uh, hands-on exhibit of vintage computers to the hope conference.
Isn't that right?
Yeah, we, we love the whole conference.
We're totally stoked about this year's show.
And this year we're also playing a lecture called what if, and we're
going to look at maybe 10 or so historical moments in the history of
and talk about what if they had gone just a little bit different?
What would have happened?
Wow.
Listen, Evan, we're, we're out of time, but one more time, tell us the
information about the conference.
So people interested can make their way down there.
April four or five and six at the info age science center in wall, New Jersey.
Uh, yes, you can get there by train from New York city.
It's all on vintage.org and it all benefits, uh, nonprofit computer club.
Everyone from families to hardcore techies is welcome.
Evan Koblenz from the vintage computer festival.
Thanks so much for what you do.
And, um, hopefully people will make their way down there.
It's, it's a great event and, and really inspirational and that's
going to do it for us here tonight.
We are pretty much out of time.
Uh, you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
See you next week.
Good night.
I'm doing it for the wrong.
I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to.
Oh, Oh, Oh.
Hey, Hey, Hey.
Wow.
That was it.
Well, you know what?
Uh, I say that we should have more snow.
Maybe not here in New York, but the DC is fine.
It can snow down there.
I don't care.
All right.