I have to tell you that we need your support now more than ever because those voices that you rely on could very well be gone very soon if we do not raise a considerable amount of money in the next few days and dare I say, this hour we need to raise as much as possible so please do give deep, give as much as you can, 516-620-3602.
I am going to wrap it up because I know we're out of time. I want to thank Tony Ryans so very much for being on the boards with me today and I want to thank you all for calling. Keep those calls coming in, 516-620-3602 and stay tuned for more FunDrive programming coming your way right here on WBAI.
And the clock on the wall says that it is just about 7 o'clock. You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM and that means I think it's time for another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
Now I can't make a call. We couldn't get much worse. But if they could, they would. Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. Bum diddly bum!
Are you looking forward to it too? Well, a bit.
Every year we all go to the campsite. After a year of work you want some relaxation and oh, oh, oh, we're so tired.
Arrived at the campsite, you see a lot of strangers. It's the neighbours from the street.
Grab a beer and a bottle of coke, because you're done for good.
On the campsite!
Everyone together!
On the campsite!
Put your champagne on the table!
On the campsite!
Knock on the door together!
On the campsite!
All night long!
On the campsite!
No toilet paper!
This is Nick of the Woods, and the OHM Hacker Camp is approaching.
Rapti Firefly here with you on this edition of Off The Hook.
And I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
Hi.
And Alex.
Good evening.
And on the phone we should have Bernie S.
Bernie, are you there?
I'm from Pennsylvania.
Ah, there you are.
And we should also have Kyle and Emmanuel.
Yes, I'm here. I'm stuck in an airport actually. I can't tell you how annoying that is.
Hi there.
So, Emmanuel, are you going to be stuck in the airport for like a period of hours or weeks like Edward Snowden?
Well, I guess that's up to the powers in charge, how long I stay here.
Which airport?
Oh, I'm not thinking about that information.
But it's not Moscow? Or you can't say even that?
It's nice to say.
We're on our way to... Did you introduce Kyle by the way? I don't think I heard his name mentioned.
Yes indeed, but I'll reintroduce him again.
I can barely hear anything. It's too confusing.
I'm still joined by Kyle.
Oh, hello.
Basically the conference begins on the 31st and we're heading over a little bit early.
And unfortunately the show happens to be exactly when we're in the security line to get on our flight.
So, in actuality, this might be a radio first. We might wind up going through security on the air.
Okay, speaking of the air though, you're getting some terrible feedback from your end.
I don't know if you can do anything about it.
Terrible feedback?
Yes indeed.
Okay, is that a little better now?
It's much better now.
So, Emmanuel, will we hear you put your cell phone in the security basket and will all the listeners be x-rayed tonight?
No, Bernie, you will not hear me put my cell phone in the basket because it's Kyle's cell phone.
Oh.
So, we'll just leave it at that.
I'm open to it. I'll let him do it.
We're almost at the security line, by the way.
Yeah, we might have to... I'll go first.
Why don't we just unplug for now.
Okay.
Yeah, we'll just unplug. And you guys carry on for a few minutes anyway while we get screwed tonight.
Okay, well, best of luck. And if we don't hear from you again, then we'll start theorizing why and we'll get the bumper sticker machines warmed up.
So, while you're doing that, I will mention that this is a fundraising week here at WBAI.
It is one of the weeks when we ask you to help us continue to exist.
We ask you to help us keep us on the air, and you can do that by calling this number, 516-620-3602,
or by going to give2wbai.org.
And we have some gifts to give you in exchange for that, which we will get into in a little bit.
But, of course, the best premium you get is the radio station and the ability to keep the show and the station going.
It's really actually exciting, I think, that this is a fundraising week, or a fundraising station.
Maybe the fundraising weeks themselves are not so exciting.
But it's exciting that this is a fundraising station, because even though it may get tiresome at times, without your support, we would go off the air.
And that's frightening, but I think it's frightening in a good way, because it means that if we want to stand there,
we have to produce the kind of programming that you, our listeners, want to hear.
And other radio stations, other forms of media, don't have to do that.
They have to produce the kind of programming that their advertisers want to hear.
They have to produce the kind of programming that, while you listen to it, you might still buy toothpaste.
We don't have to do that.
We can provide you our own unedited opinions, our own unedited technical content.
We can say, don't use some service or product without any fear ever of offending our sponsors, because you are our sponsors.
Well, I guess if you offend us, if we offend you, you'll send us an email.
But we won't offend you in the same way, I hope.
So, give us a call.
For once, I don't have the number written in front of me, so Rob's going to tell you what it is.
That is 516-620-3602.
That's 516-620-3602.
And show your support for this radio station, for this radio programming.
Because if we go off the air, and I know we say this all the time, and we haven't gone off the air yet,
but if we go off the air, there's no getting back on the air.
There's no way that the circumstances that led to WBAI being created could ever be repeated.
So, 516-620-3602 is the number to call and say, I want to pledge my support to WBAI and to Off The Hook.
And, you know, keep us on the air.
Hey, Rob, can you still hear me?
Yes, indeed. Are you still alive?
Yeah, I'm still here, but I'm coming up next, so I'm going to mute the call, and I'll check back in in a couple minutes.
All right, good luck, man.
Wow, I was really looking forward to hearing what it sounded like inside an X-ray machine.
Yeah, we don't have enough action sequences on the show, I don't think. I've always said that.
I want to follow up on what Mike said about this radio station, WBAI,
and the unique paradigm that exists with listeners keeping the station on the air,
as opposed to corporate advertisers who, by their very nature, influence the content of commercial radio stations' broadcasts.
That doesn't happen here on the station.
We can offend whoever we want, and we enjoy it.
I wouldn't say we enjoy offending, but we enjoy not having to worry about offending corporate companies,
like Verizon, for instance, which willfully is complicit with our government in monitoring all our phone traffic, that sort of thing.
A lot of commercial radio stations would accept funding from Verizon Corporation.
They're a big advertiser, and they can't be openly critical of Verizon.
We don't have to worry about that at WBAI, and that's why it's important that if you support that kind of a situation
where you don't have to worry about the accuracy or the bias coming out, being influenced by corporations,
to call 516-620-3602. That's 516-620-3602.
We have a number of premiums, but when you call, they can tell you what we have,
and the station is really worth supporting.
As Mike said, if the station is really in a bad way financially, if people don't call and support during this pledge drive,
WBAI's future really is in serious question.
We've said that before. We've hinted at it, but it's no longer hinting.
It's come down to that, unfortunately.
I'd also like to add that now, thanks to the way we do things this round,
if you're listening to us after the fact, if you're not listening live, if you're listening to a podcast or an MP3 or things of that sort,
you can still help us out. You can still call 516-620-3602.
You can still go to give, the numeral 2, WBAI.org, and you can still get hold of what premiums we've got to thank you for that.
Kyle, is that you?
Rob, yeah. I made it through the first part, and I'm going to have to put the phone down,
so you'll hear the sound of me going through and opting out and all that.
Anyway, continue, and everybody, please call in and support the station today.
Excellent. Well, with Kyle's trials and tribulations as background music.
I do want to tell our listeners something they may not know,
which is that if you, like I am, are excited by the way WBAI is funded,
by our notion of being beholden only to you, our audience,
but you're not excited to hear me say it all the time,
there's an option just for you,
and that option is you can sign up to be a monthly recurring donor.
The WBAI Buddy Program is what it's called,
and the same way to sign up, 516-620-3602, or give, the numeral 2, WBAI.org,
and what that does is it sets up an automatic donation every month from your account,
and it can be a fairly small donation because it will multiply every month,
so it really helps us if you do that, and we won't have to ask you again soon.
So that's another thing to consider if you like the radio program better
when we're not asking you for money directly.
Okay. Well, with all that being said, there is a lot going on this past week
in the world of tech and freedom and that sort of thing.
We mentioned a guy called Edward Snowden once or twice.
You may have heard of this fellow.
I don't know if you follow very much in the way of current events or what have you,
but, yeah, Edward Snowden, he's still in an airport in Russia where he's been now for a month,
but now it looks like things might be moving in a particular direction.
It looks like he has a Russian lawyer, a man named Anatoly Kucherina,
who handed him a certificate today saying that Russia's Federal Migration Service
is now reviewing his political asylum request,
and it looks like he's got some plans to stay in Russia if this pans out for him.
And, you know, not only did he hand him a piece of paper,
I also read that he handed him some new shirts and some pants as well.
Yeah, apparently he's had the first changes of clothes that he's had in a month.
In the book!
This is all really exciting and not at all a distraction from the NSA spying on us.
I'm sure two books, if I recall correctly, right? Is that you, Kyle?
There were a few books, and I think Kyle's still in limbo there,
but there were a few books, Russian books translated into English,
and this is all the situation that he finds himself in
because he found the situation here with the facts he was keeping secret too unbearable to continue,
which I think should direct people's attention back to the reason he's there at all.
And the reason we're here.
Of course, the reason we're here as well.
Which is to talk about why he is there and the secrets about what our government is doing
and covering them so people hear about it.
I would say that listeners should be hard pressed to find any radio station in the country
or any radio show in the country that has spoken more about this topic in detail,
about what's really going on with government surveillance on American citizens and others abroad.
It's really important stuff that's going on right now.
We're really at the crux of where our Constitution protects us and new technology.
And I think it's worth keeping this sort of thing on the air by calling 516-620-3602.
It's 516-620-3602.
I'm hearing a bunch of rattling. I think that means something might be happening in Kyle's end of things.
But there's also a related story that was going on that I think you sent us, Bernie,
in New Jersey apparently a court has ruled that warrants are needed for cell phone tracking.
The Chief Justice who ruled on the case, Stuart Rabner, said,
no one buys a cell phone to share detailed information about their whereabouts with the police.
That was true in 2006 and is equally true today.
Citizens have a legitimate privacy interest in such information.
And I think what we have here is another example of, and of course,
state rulings and state laws and everything else I don't think will protect anyone from what's going on now.
It is someone in power saying, yeah, this is how we feel about the situation.
It doesn't jive with what we're being told from higher up.
But these maybe are some humans that have some sense. What do you think?
Well, I think you raise a really good point.
And this could be the lead off to some kind of federal legislation that requires a warrant for cell phone tracking data.
As far as I can tell, this is the first time a court case has deemed it actually private to,
well, location data has actually been location data, in fact, private.
And what's very interesting about this is it's the New Jersey Constitution.
It's the privacy provisions of the New Jersey Constitution that actually gave rise to this extra protection for the location information.
It's not necessarily the Fourth Amendment.
But the judges went so far as to intimate that probably Fourth Amendment protection should be forthcoming for this kind of information.
They ruled on it, like you said, that it was not information that people reasonably expected to be transmitting out to law enforcement.
And that it was incredibly sensitive information and that you can tell a great deal about a particular person from this information.
I mean, incredibly pressing and incredibly relevant to what's going on right now with PRISM, with the metadata, even though I can't stand that term, metadata.
And here I am using it again. Mike's going to get mad.
But it's I think it's a really, really important ruling.
You're going to start to see other legislatures and hopefully other judges and other Supreme Courts, whatever the highest court of the state is.
This was actually a state Supreme Court ruling.
Yeah, it's sometimes it's a little confusing because in New York, our highest court is called the Court of Appeals and our state Supreme Courts are the lowest courts.
I don't think New Jersey does that.
No, they don't, thankfully.
I do want to say so. It's I'm glad this is this is a great decision for the people of New Jersey, but it's almost insane that it's a great decision because it's so it affects so little.
It affects only the state police in New Jersey, not the FBI, even in New Jersey or anywhere else.
And they can still get your data if they want it.
They just have to get a warrant, which which they can probably do.
They can probably do.
So at least there's judicial intervention.
No, so it's great. I don't I don't want to pretend that it isn't great, but it's a reflection of the sad world we live in that something this minor could be great.
But it could also be what's interesting of it is that it really could be a tip off.
It's almost like a slap in the face about the collection of this metadata by the National Security Agency and the lack of federal protection saying, you know, New Jersey is going out on a limb here.
I think this deserves to be private.
Yeah, it actually is. It does seem like it's it should be common sense for anyone under understands technology, even a little bit that this data should be private.
But it is always hinged on this kind of anachronistic legal rule about business records in the possession of third parties.
And this is what I believe it's Section 215 of the Patriot Act is relying on as well, which says that you do not have a legitimate expectation of privacy in any record that you give over to a third party.
This is how this is how touchtone recording is done by law enforcement on telephones, because these are considered business records.
We give this data over to a third party. Our library records, our business records in the possession of a third party.
And that is what that precedent, that line of cases is what has given rise to a lot of bad legal precedent over the last couple of decades.
And that's what's been been turned around here by the New Jersey Supreme Court.
It is it does look like it's a very common sensation, but hopefully it will it will send a it will be some kind of a sea change, or at least we'll start to see some people waking up to the fact that that business record in possession of a third party legal doctrine is completely anachronistic and should be overturned.
We can but hope. And I think a lot of the a lot of the sort of shift that's been going on, it really depends on the public just, you know, maybe accepting that, OK, well, nothing I do is private anymore.
OK, they have this information. OK, as a matter of course, I'm basically giving this up and making people OK with that, making people stop.
Hey, Kyle, is that you?
We heard a bunch of rattling and I just assume that was you guys being roughed up, but it sounds like it sounds like you made it through alive.
What was it like?
Getting settled here. Yeah, it just seems like it was a bit frazzled, as you could expect.
And yeah, I don't know.
Emmanuel, did you have any trouble?
Well, I wouldn't say trouble.
Just it was a little crazy.
I almost went to the backscatter machine.
Very, very close to that.
I just wanted to get through it quickly, which I know is exactly the reason not to.
And at the last minute they said the machine was broken and they got everybody through the other machine.
Oh, that's why I didn't go through it.
OK, I thought I was going to have to opt out of that, too.
So, Emmanuel, let me ask you, like, I'm trying to remember why we opt out of the backscatter machine.
Well, it's privacy issues.
This was one concern.
There are potential health risks that people don't quite know the answer to yet.
There was something else, too, wasn't there, Kyle?
Yeah.
I know what those were.
I don't want to make it so easy on the security here.
You know, I'm a bit old school.
And anyway, yeah, it's new technology.
I got asked to go through one of them when I was coming out to the East Coast here.
And they were trying to convince me that as I was getting hand-checked, they said millimeter wave is no problem and all that.
But I agree with Emmanuel that privacy, I mean, I don't want some machine scanning me
and showing images of my body and all of that.
I mean, it's personal and I think it's invasive.
And just because they have the technology doesn't make it OK.
I also understand that people who have piercings for aesthetic lens have particular trouble with these things.
So I'm kind of in sympathy with those people until the system becomes a little bit fairer.
OK, so, I mean, the last time I flew, I opted out of these things.
And they make it unpleasant on purpose.
Well, the whole thing is unpleasant.
The whole thing is unpleasant, but it's especially unpleasant.
You have to like stand around, I think is the worst part, even worse than the actual frisking.
I feel like it's the standing around designated as someone who doesn't want to participate.
Yeah, it does seem like they're basically punishing you for exerting your rights, asserting your rights.
And that's all part of just shifting public consciousness into, oh, that's a hassle to continue to retain my dignity.
I guess I'll just give in.
I would also raise the point that I opt out because I can.
It's still OK.
I'm not forced to do that.
And I very often, even when I don't have enough time, I have enough time to take the extra procedures to not go through that machine.
But, I mean, by having that right, I think it's cool to exercise rights like that.
Yeah, and the other thing I just realized when we were online just now, they didn't tell us we were going through that machine.
I did what I always do.
I emptied my metal objects and put them in trays and things like that.
And then as I'm next to go through this thing, the woman says, make sure everything is out of your pockets.
And everything out of my pockets, where am I supposed to put it?
I'm not even anywhere near where the tray is.
And I have $40,000 in cash in my pocket.
What am I supposed to do with that?
I probably shouldn't have said that.
Wait, you didn't tell me yet.
Well, no, it was supposed to be a surprise.
And you wouldn't get a card to carry our bag?
But, yeah, it seems a little bit disjointed at best.
Well, let's move on to happier things.
Why don't you tell us a little bit about where you're headed?
Well, we're headed to ALM, the Observe, Hack, and Make hacker camp.
Yeah, 2013, which will be taking place next.
Well, when is the 31st?
What day of the week is that?
Does anybody know?
Isn't it a Wednesday?
Okay.
Yeah, today is the 24th.
Look at that.
Well, that makes sense then.
We won't be on the air, so we won't be broadcasting from there.
But that's because of the fundraiser.
We also won't be on the air the week after that.
But we'll be back on the week after that.
So we'll be frolicking about in a farm field somewhere in Holland.
And, basically, I guess we'll report back after the event.
You can go to OM2013, that's OHM2013.org, to get all the latest updates and probably live updates as well.
But there should be all kinds of interesting things going on.
We don't exactly know what else we'll be doing.
I guess we'll find out when we do it.
It's my understanding, Emmanuel, that OHM is now sold out.
So if you didn't buy a ticket, it's too late.
It's also my understanding that, Bernie, you waited until the last possible minute to buy a ticket.
I did. I ended up buying my ticket about five hours before they sold out.
And I had no idea. I just got lucky.
I think that means you have to sit way at the back, Bernie.
I deserve it.
And you bought your plane ticket before that.
So you would have been in one fine pickle if you had been sold out.
That's right. I did have my plane ticket before.
It was nonrefundable.
So I might have been able to buy one from someone who had bought their ticket and not been able to go or something.
But it all worked out for the best.
And I think that was a good sign that it worked out well.
And I'll be heading to the Netherlands on Monday.
Hey, have we talked about the fundraiser tonight?
Because we are supposed to be raising funds for the station.
We have mentioned it, yes.
And we've mentioned that we have some interesting premiums, but we haven't mentioned what those are yet.
Okay, well, let me get the premium that I have with me, which is our premium for tonight.
I'll let Kyle take over while I rummage through my bag.
Yes.
So, Kyle, why don't you tell us a bit about this premium?
I understand you were involved in its creation.
That's right.
What we're talking about is the Hacker Calendar.
And we've continued to do that this year.
Well, next year is the one we're talking about, 2014.
And, yes, so it's all about Payphones.
Payphones.
It's a 12x12 wall calendar, full color.
And I helped go through the tons and tons and tons and tons of photos that, well, that 2600 and Emanuel has accrued over the years
and helped with the editing committee, and we're really, really proud of it.
Some of them, some, maybe just a couple, maybe one or two have been published,
but most of them are unique and have never, ever been seen.
In fact, most all of them are brand new, never been seen.
So it's a really, really awesome premium.
This is the third year we've done this, actually.
The first year, it was about telephones.
Telephony was the theme.
Second year, 2013, the theme was surveillance, appropriately enough.
And 2014, we decided, hey, what the hell, you know, Payphones.
Payphone photos are one of the most popular features of 2600.
We get far too many than we can ever print, and some of them are really, really good.
And so what we did was we just went through the last few years and picked out some of the best.
There's still a lot left that are really, really amazing.
But we found that when you blow these pictures up, you make them 12 by 12,
what you have is something with even more detail than what shows up in the magazine.
And, of course, in addition to all the Payphone photos, we have all these dates, hacker dates,
which basically almost every day of the year has something that happened in hacker history.
There are some dates that don't, so I'm going to take a risk here and go with today's date.
Today's the 24th, you say?
The 24th of July.
Oh, yeah, that's one of the dates that has nothing on it.
Oh, well, I'm sorry about that.
How about yesterday?
We'll do yesterday instead.
Some of us like to live in the past.
Go ahead.
All right.
Well, technically, it's still the future.
On the 23rd of July, 1990, Craig Nidor, who was known as Night Lightning,
was put on trial for publishing that Bell South document in the Hackerzine frack,
and the charges would be dropped four days later.
Also, the Polish Cypher Bureau revealed its Enigma decryption techniques to France and England.
That was back in 1939.
And if you want to go ahead to the future, tomorrow, the 25th,
Yale University accuses admission officials at Princeton of hacking their website in the year 2002.
You might remember that.
We talked about it on the radio.
And also, the Afghan War Diary was released by WikiLeaks in 2010.
So there's history all over the place in this calendar.
It's incredible.
Every single day, you can find something that happened that's of interest to the world of technology,
that's of interest to the world of hackers.
And while you're gazing at that, you can also gaze at an amazing,
colorful payphone photo that will grace the wall for an entire month with 12x12 imagery.
And these phones are in communities.
They're kind of surrounding it.
They're in situ.
They're hackers, people that have taken them, the photos.
And you see the whole kind of atmosphere of what's going on.
There's all kinds of things, graffiti, notes to people.
Maybe you left a message and you recognize your own handwriting on some of these,
or you left something on top of one of these payphones.
Who knows?
But they're really amazing, amazing photographs to have on your wall,
and we're including those tonight.
With a pledge of $75, you will get one of these payphone calendars,
hacker calendars with a payphone theme.
It's really incredible.
From all over the world, from India, from Cuba.
What other countries do I have here?
There's one from Greece.
I don't want to give them all away.
El Salvador.
Payphones from El Salvador.
Incredible.
Hungary.
Okay, I can't stop now.
Don't show me anymore.
I have to make some surprises for our listeners.
So I don't have the phone number burned into my head, so you guys don't have to do that.
516-620-3602.
And tell me if I'm correct, Emmanuel, that what people do,
they call that number, again, 516-620-3602, and they say,
I want to support WBAI, I want to support Off The Hook,
and please send me in return the hacker calendar.
Yes, it might be listed as a 2014 hacker calendar,
but either way, they should be able to find it very easily.
Excellent.
So that's by calling 516-620-3602,
or by going on the web to give2wbai.org.
Give2wbai.org.
Yes.
And you'll be the envy of your neighborhood having one of these calendars,
which have not yet even been announced, except for this radio show right now,
of being in existence.
You heard it here first.
First to hear.
Excellent.
And also, for those of you going to give2wbai.org,
give2wbai.org,
there are actually a few premiums left over from the last time we did this.
There are very limited quantities of our older premiums that are still available.
So if you go onto the web,
if you go onto the give2wbai.org,
and you search for Off The Hook in the search box,
you can see what those are.
Supplies are limited.
While supplies last, you might be able to get hold of one of those.
Usually we're very used to saying,
we're very used to replying to emails and stuff with,
oh, I wanted that gift, but it's too late now.
But we're very used to replying in the negative to those.
But now we can say there are some left,
and you might be able to get hold of them
if you go to give2wbai.org and check it out.
I should point out, too,
that we are just about caught up with premiums for past fundraisers,
in case people are curious about that.
If you pledged any time February of this year or before,
you should have your premiums.
If you have not gotten your premiums,
email us, OTH at 22300.com, and we'll look into it for you.
But they have all been delivered, and they should all have been sent out.
We're still working on the May fundraiser,
and generally what we have to do is we have to wait for everybody to pay.
So people pledge, but they don't pay.
We usually give them a couple of months,
and then we like to remain positive.
So before we give up and say, oh, they're never going to pay,
and basically say, okay, how many premiums do we make?
How many do we have to deliver to the radio station?
Basically, we give it a couple of months,
and after that that's when we deliver it to the radio station.
But also you should remember that we're kind of in a temporary state at WBAI right now
where half of us are uptown in Harlem
and half of us are downtown in the financial district,
and the people who process the premiums are down there.
There's rumors that we're going to be moving to Brooklyn, which would be great.
We'll all be together, so it won't be so hard to deliver them.
But these are trying times, but we're getting through them,
and we pledge to honor every pledge that comes in.
So again, that number, 516620, I forgot the last four.
3602.
3602, yes.
And while you mention it, I just want to throw out a quick thanks to WHCR,
Harlem Community Radio, here at City College New York
for continuing to let us crash on their couch, so to speak.
They're the reason we're still on the air after our last location got squashed by a storm.
As you know, you're listening right now to 99.5 FM WBAI.
This is Off The Hook, and we're doing stuff.
Some other stuff is going on in the world.
Right after our show last week, the story came out that the judge in the Bradley Manning trial
had rejected the motion to dismiss the key charge, which was aiding the enemy.
And so from that point, things are still in sort of a holding pattern now.
What do you know about where that's shaking out?
Well, I think we expected that.
I think we called it several weeks in ahead.
Essentially what was at issue there was whether or not the prosecution
had proved all the elements of the crime.
And the military judge, which serves at the pleasure of the commander of the base
who referred the charges to the military judge for court-martial in the first placement,
these things are very, very connected.
I think that the military judge was under a lot of pressure probably to find in favor of the government here.
I mean, I don't think that a military judge is immune to those sorts of things.
I don't think it's the death knell for the cause, though.
I think that it is possible that an appellate court could review this and find differently.
I think that if it was brought up, every service has its own criminal court of appeals,
and above that, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.
My experience with the CCAs has been that it's very, very difficult to get this kind of ruling overturned.
But at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, for which I clerked many years ago,
I think that these are independent federal judges who would be reviewing the case.
There may be a chance. There may be a chance.
It may not be a great chance, but there is a chance.
Alex?
Bernie.
Wasn't the crux of the issue here about the aiding the enemy charge,
wasn't Bradley Manning's defense attorney arguing that the charge should not stand if the government,
I guess the Defense Department, can't prove, if the court could not prove,
that Bradley Manning intentionally made the information that he admitted to leaking,
intentionally made it available to al-Qaeda?
That's right.
Isn't that what the crux of the issue was?
Yes, exactly. It's the scienter element, the knowledge element, that he did this knowingly,
with the knowledge, that is, that it would somehow aid and abet the enemy.
And what you had was, as Mike had mentioned a couple of weeks ago,
I think it was Yochai Benkler, Professor Benkler,
who testified that this is a ridiculous proposition to make,
that if you publish something, somehow it can aid and abet the enemy,
because then it becomes possible for any media outlet to aid and abet the enemy
if they publish some kind of classified or secretive information.
So the implications of the ruling could be very, very far-reaching.
My guess is that journalists are next on the U.S. government's hit list.
The Department of Justice, just a few weeks ago,
showed its hand with its intention to investigate a Fox News journalist
who communicated with a source about classified documents,
and then that journalist was under investigation by the Department of Justice.
So it looks like this White House is, and maybe previous White Houses, we don't know,
but at least this White House is really starting to attack the First Amendment and journalism
by claiming that just doing your job as a journalist and asking a source,
do you have any information for me that may be classified,
you could be convicted of a felony or charged in a military court
if you're in the military.
A couple points, Bernie.
The first is that this administration, the Obama administration, is in fact unique in history.
As we've mentioned before, they have brought more charges of this nature,
espionage charges against people who are not in fact spies
but have leaked information to us, the public,
than all previous administrations in history combined.
So whether the Obama is the first to be this strict
or if it's a trend that will go away after the Obama administration goes away
remains to be seen, but it is definitely new.
The other point I want to make is that even though Manning has,
the judge has declined to dismiss the charges,
he still has not yet been found guilty of them.
I have a guess as to where this whole proceeding is going,
but it's not there yet, so there is still some hope.
That's right. And to go back to what you were just saying, Bernie,
I think that we can tie this, or rather come full circle around it
and somehow tie this back into the fundraiser in terms of the journalism component of this
because here we have the administration, as Mike rightfully points out,
doing all it can to protect the sources and methods of its sources,
protect its classified information.
It doesn't want anything being leaked, but you have to think about the public.
And the public, where do we get our information?
We get our information from the media.
And where do they get their information?
They get their information from their sources.
Why shouldn't those sources receive some kind of protection?
Why shouldn't those sources that are providing information to the media
to give it to the public also be afforded suitable protection under the law?
Journalistic integrity demands it.
This station is a beacon, essentially, and has been a beacon of journalism
for at least, as far as I can remember, for 20 years.
If we want to protect the media, if you want to protect this kind of speech,
if you want to protect this kind of dialogue going out over the radio waves
from New York over the Internet, please call in.
And if you can't afford some of the premiums, any dollar amount will help us out.
I just want to say, though, that what happens here,
what we're seeing around us with these attacks on the First Amendment,
with spying everywhere, it's because we let it happen.
It's because we don't speak up loudly enough.
And, sure, we can say this guy is worse than that guy, but you know what?
They're all going to be pretty bad if we don't stand up and do something about it.
We vote in the congresspeople term after term who support this crap,
and we have to start turning that around and saying,
we're not going to support you anymore, and there's more of us than there are of you.
And right now, I'm not so sure there are more of us than there are of people that say,
yeah, it's okay to spy on me and take all my information because I'm not doing anything,
and I don't foresee this information ever being used in a bad way.
We need to reach those people because that's the key to changing things, turning it around.
Every government, I don't care if it's leftist or rightist,
wants control over their people, wants to be able to spy on them,
and this is something that will continue as technology continues to grow.
If we don't move with it and challenge these types of things as soon as they happen,
and WBAI is the place where you hear about that,
then I weep for our future because I don't see any future as far as liberty
or anything resembling the First Amendment being left.
Hey, Manuel, did you see the story, the NSA says it can't search its own emails?
I'm sorry, say that again?
The NSA says it can't search its own emails.
There's a journalist from ProPublica who filed a Freedom of Information Act with the NSA
because apparently the NSA had cooperated with a documentary that paints the NSA favorably,
and the journalist wanted to understand more about how this sort of PR campaign works.
So the journalist's name is Justin Elliott.
He filed a FOIA request saying, you know, go through your emails and find the one.
It's not classified information.
It's emails exchanged with the documentary producers.
And the NSA wrote back that we do not have a system capable of searching our own email.
Well, that's hilarious. Of course they do.
They have a system of searching all of our emails.
Maybe they leave their own emails out of that system.
Well, whatever. They can use grep or something.
I'm sure it's not that hard for them to do.
The thing is they won't. They obviously won't, and they're answerable to nobody.
I did hear something. I only heard this very briefly, that Congress is poised to vote about stopping the NSA
from eavesdropping on phone calls. Is there any truth to that?
Do you mean in terms of the, I think it's a Pentagon funding bill.
Is that what you were referring to, Manuel?
I just saw a little scroll go by on BBC, and that's all I know.
I think it has to do with the funding, and this is an interesting area here,
where politics makes strange bedfellows, especially with hackers,
because what we have here are very libertarian Republicans
who are trying to stop NSA funding because of the surveillance programs.
Well, not necessarily. I should be actually a little more clear there.
They're not trying to defund the NSA,
but they're basically trying to stop the funding for these surveillance programs.
And they are taking the philosophical position that the US government should not have its hands in this data.
They want a very limited government.
And also part of this, the other side of this, the flip side,
is that the libertarians also don't want to fund the rebels in Syria against Bashar al-Assad
because of, again, this limitation on what they believe the United States should be involved in on a federal level.
So it's interesting. I mean, from a very philosophical point of view,
I think that they're aligned with the hackers.
But if you take their philosophy in wholesale,
you also would have to accept that there shouldn't be things like gun control.
So I think this amendment was introduced by a congressperson, Amash, I guess is how it's pronounced.
And it was voted on, I guess, just before the show.
And the vote, it did not pass, but the vote was 205 congresspeople voted for it,
and 217 voted against it, which is way closer than I would have guessed.
So just six more representatives and it would have been tied.
It shows that people are outraged.
And this thing didn't pass, but I think maybe the next thing will if we keep the pressure on.
If we relax and turn the pressure off, then, of course, things will go back to the way they were.
But a little more pressure.
This shows how people make a difference if they speak up.
And that's something we notice with dismay sometimes, people we disagree with,
how they seem to be so loud and how they seem to have people pay attention to them.
But you know what? They're doing what they're supposed to do.
They're getting out there with their opinion and they're being vocal about it.
And when you're that way, people pay attention to you.
And we can't be polite all the time.
And we also can't insist on only working with people we agree with on everything.
You know what? If you're opposed to what's going on with the NSA and all the spying and eavesdropping,
I don't care what your feelings are on gun control.
I don't care what your feelings are on abortion.
I don't care what your feelings are on the Middle East.
I care about what your feelings are about this.
And we can work together.
And that's something that's essential if we're going to survive.
People listening now realize that that's exactly why you need to support a voice like WBAI,
because you're going to hear things throughout the course of a day that you violently disagree with.
You might have to buy several radios because you have to throw one across the room every now and then.
It happens.
But that's what discussion, dialogue, argument is all about.
That's healthy.
And we need that.
We don't need the complacency and the boring, bland crap that you'll find if you tune the dial a little bit up to the right,
because there's no debate going on there.
There's no discussion going on there.
This is consumerism.
If you want to be a part of that, hey, go leave right now.
No one's going to say anything bad about what you do.
Go ahead.
But if you do want to keep this conversation going, call us at 516.
I think somebody left.
I think somebody left.
Well, call us at 516-620-3602 and keep us on the air.
Keep our show, keep our station going.
Or go to give and the numeral to WBAI.org for a pledge of $75.
They were yelling at me.
I was standing on a chair when I was saying all that.
I somehow pictured you would be.
I've got a little crowd around me, too.
You could donate.
You could call 516-620-3602.
No, the payphone over there.
Go use it.
Dial 1 first.
If you can still find a payphone, because payphones are an endangered species.
And at some point, I think very soon, we're only going to be able to see them in photographs.
And so if you get this hacker calendar, you'll get some nice, big, full-color photographs
beautifully showing the ins and outs of this endangered species.
And for a pledge of $75, you can get hold of that.
Or you can get hold of what remains of our earlier premiums.
If you ask what those are or if you go to the website, give numeral to WBAI.org
and search for off the hook in the search box.
You can find out what those are and see if they're of interest to you.
But either way, the most important premium you get is this station.
You're the reason that the station has been kept going for over five decades.
It's nothing but you, the listener, that has kept the station going.
We don't tell you what kind of soda you should be drinking.
We don't tell you what kind of car you should be driving.
We don't get paid for any of that.
The vast majority of us here don't get paid.
But what we do is we volunteer our time because we believe that this is important, what we're doing here.
If you agree, call us, 516-620-3602.
Or go to give, the numeral to, WBAI.org and help keep us going.
Rob?
Yes.
I just wanted to say, along with what Emanuel was just saying,
that today I heard something extremely ironic.
I heard the White House press spokesman Dick Carney say, quote,
about this legislation that Congress almost got through today to defund this surveillance program.
And the White House said, quote,
this blunt approach is not the product of an informed, open, or deliberative process.
I had to laugh because this administration's own process in implementing and maintaining
this secret dragnet surveillance program has been anything but open or a deliberative process.
The public and Congress has been lied to repeatedly about these programs.
And the so-called judicial oversight, the Foreign Intelligence Frameless Court,
effectively has no oversight because its decisions are secret.
This is a farce.
And if you're interested in an informed, open, and deliberative process,
then this is the radio station you should be supporting,
because we're trying to inform and have a deliberative debate about these topics,
which are really important to all of us.
So if that's important to you, call 516-620-3602
and support an informed, open, and deliberative process on the radio.
Right, because staying quiet is the sort of thing that brings about a government
that can say with a straight face, we don't have the ability to search our e-mails.
I think all of us have that little magnifying glass icon.
We can search our own e-mails perfectly well if we need to.
And to go back for a minute, just to what Emmanuel and Bernie said,
this issue of political accountability I think is incredibly important.
It's something we've also said before, but it's even more important in the context
of our relationship with Europe right now.
One of the unintentional but foreseeable consequences of the Snowden revelations
has been that Europe does not trust us anymore.
And they don't want to share data with us.
They want to strengthen incredibly the data protection rules in the European Union
to the extent that it might result in something like the balkanization of the Internet.
And if that occurs, that's going to be a big problem.
It's going to prevent the free flow of data from across borders.
It's going to inhibit people's ability to use the Internet
as a means of decentralized free expression.
And the way to counteract that is to engage or to call for political accountability
for actions relating to these massive surveillance programs.
If the U.S. citizenry does not demand accountability,
Europe is going to have no choice but to believe that we don't care,
to believe that we support these programs, and that we need to make these calls.
We need to make it known.
And if you want to hear these things, again, going back to WBI,
please support us because nobody else is out there talking about these types of things.
I think, though, Alex, it's a bit naive to pretend that Europe is the sort of promised land
in terms of protection for its citizens' data.
Everyone knows, except apparently Angela Merkel,
that the German secret service is involved in spying on the world.
The British secret service is involved in spying on the world.
Again, everyone except David Cameron knows.
So all these secret services are in it together,
and one might be slightly worse than the other,
but it's naive to pretend that it's Europe versus the U.S.
Well, I don't think that I was pretending.
I think it's a bit unfair for, at this point in history,
when we've just now been able to communicate and connect on a scale unlike any other,
that now we're going to get xenophobic and nationalistic,
and now we're going to break the Internet because we don't trust each other.
I mean, that's the makings for more what, like world wars?
I don't know.
I mean, anything's possible at that point,
and it's just a real sad, disappointing result if that's the direction it goes.
Yeah, and talking of David Cameron and the balkanization of the Internet,
there is a story that came out recently that we're definitely going to be keeping an eye on.
I wish we had more time to devote to it today, but we're almost out of time.
But David Cameron is spearheading an initiative
to basically create an opt-out Internet filter for all ISPs in the U.K.,
where they will filter out, quote, pornography, sick material.
He refers to the, quote, corroding influence of pornography on childhood.
And basically the end result of this is going to be that there is going to be a filter
on everyone's Internet connection in the U.K.
that they have to specifically opt out of if they want to look at so-called filtered material.
And this is dangerous, and this is basically Orwellian in the extreme.
So basically you have to call up your ISP, like BT or whatever,
and say, I want to look at pornography?
Yeah, and this is also trusting everything to a static filter,
which we all know how well that works.
So these filters, okay, first the filters are going to be filtering out pornography,
and you're going to have to ask for the pornography.
Now, what will the filters be expanded to include later on that we'll have to ask to read?
Yeah, and what are they going to want to know that you want to read?
Imagine if you're not in this situation yet, imagine having to call up your service providers
and ask permission for everything you want to read or consume that might offend somebody else,
because that's the direction things are going.
And we'll definitely keep an eye on this story and those like it.
You can always send us stories that are happening near you.
Send us emails, oth at 2600.com.
We want to hear about them.
We have just a few minutes left, so I want to give people a last opportunity
to hear the phone number, 516-620-3602,
and hear the premium, the Hacker Calendar, the 2014 Hacker Calendar,
12x12 calendar with a payphone, a photograph of a payphone on every month,
and a date in hacker history on almost every day, 516-620-3602.
You can get that calendar for your pledge of $75.
You can make a larger pledge if you can afford it and keep us on the air for a little bit longer,
keep us from fundraising for a little bit longer.
You can make a smaller pledge if that's all you can afford.
Every bit helps, 516-620-3602.
That's also givethenumeral2wbai.org, givethenumeral2wbai.org.
Another benefit you get is if you pledge at one of these levels,
you will become a member of the station.
You will have a say in where things go for this place, this organization.
I'm sorry, I just got to say we're sitting here at the airport.
It's kind of hard to hear all the announcements being made and all that kind of stuff,
but we have the calendar here because we wanted to describe it and have it in front of us.
People keep stopping and looking at it, and one person almost took it.
So, yeah, that could be you as far as having people paying attention to it.
It's something that you will cherish and admire,
and a lot of people will also want to know how they can get theirs.
And there's a lot of really terrible calendars.
This is one that is really awesome.
Yeah, and you'll know before anybody else how the days in 2014 are going to shape up.
When does July 24th fall next year?
Nobody knows unless you have the calendar.
Excellent, and on that note, we have to wrap things up around here.
Send us an email, othat2600.com.
We will be off the air for a couple of weeks, back in the third week, and you can hear from us then.
Until then, for Off the Hook, this is Rob T. Firefly,
signing off with Rap News from Juice Media, the latest episode.
Juice Media
Good afternoon, viewers.
Thank you for clicking through to view this exclusive brand new edition of Juice Rap News
back through with a global transmission with your host Robert Foster.
And we're glad to begin by introducing this routine interview scheduled today
with our regular U.S. guest, now director of the NSA, General Baxter.
Can you provide via satellite an update on the state of the empire?
I have to confide.
I'm satisfied.
In fact, I got no axe to grind.
Our Nobel Peace Prize president mastermind has a healthy appetite
for sending drones to smash the lives of brown children, Muslims, I mean terrorist hoodlums.
Egregious.
No, he's damn right we agree it's just.
Every American will feel hot pangs of pride when they hear of this.
But guess what I'm most excited about this finally happening?
What?
The court martial of Private Bradley Manning.
Three years without trial and a touch of torture.
That's how we punish dissent in the free world order.
With this, no one will dare blow whistles or leak intel
or question our right to read every single freaking email.
Oops.
Did you just say you read everyone's emails?
But emails?
No, we don't read, scan, track, record, and store every detail.
At all?
No, sir.
Not wittingly.
Perhaps a few billion emails accidentally.
OK, General.
We're just getting sent a signal.
It's the fearless journalist crusader direct from Rio,
the guardian of civil liberties, Sir Glenn Greenwald.
Robert, hello.
Hi, Glenn.
What quest are you and your steed on?
A hero has leaked classified documents,
finally proving that the NSA has secretly obtained access
directly to all the servers of Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, YouTube, Skype, and Google.
This PRISM system for spying on users from the dark side of the moon
will record everything that arrives on screens, emails, chats, Grindr feed.
Robert, it took great courage from this whistleblower to decide to leak.
They've taken a great risk in getting us, their fellow citizens,
this critical glimpse into what is really happening behind the scenes.
Mark Zuckerberg, your position?
Word.
Sit back, listen.
You're rocking with Zuckerberg.
Nick Offner, tactician.
So, PRISM?
What's that, PRISM?
Never even heard of that system.
Yeah, we got a program running, but we call it fascism.
Do your users like that?
A billion likes, cousin, and if you dislike something, here's my dislike button.
I'm in charge, you nigger turds.
Interview's over.
Finished.
Ended.
Uh, Mark Zuckerberg, CEO, bitches.
Unfriended.
Okay, then.
General, would you like to make a statement?
I'm disgusted.
You are?
That's amazing.
I had no idea that this could occur.
It's devastating.
Shocking.
I concur.
So, will there be an investigation?
You betcha.
Wonderful.
I think the whole world feels the same.
Wait, what?
That might lead to a revolution.
Indeed.
See what I mean?
Look, we welcome this debate, openly.
Free speech is sanctified.
Okay, then.
Does the NSA keep—
Sorry, that's classified.
So, what are the laws for the—
Eh, access denied.
Well, how can we see—
Oops!
Debate time has expired.
Uh, hold on.
We're picking up another feed, this time from Hong Kong.
Glenn?
It's me again.
I got an update on what's going on.
Greenwald, we're gonna prosecute you for reason.
I mean treason.
Uh-uh.
Your threats are no match for my shield, and you'll cower under the weight of words when
I'm wielding my pen sword.
By the power of Greenwald!
Did you have an update for the people?
Oh, yeah.
Now, uh, world, meet the brave leaker Edward Snowden.
Snowden!
He's made a video to reveal his motives for whistleblowing.
What's up, Edward?
Hey, Glenn, what's up?
Yeah, what's going on here?
Me want big up the hot stuff of them Ellsberg and Manning, you know what I'm saying, eh?
Yo, Snowden, they're gonna come around here looking for you today.
Word!
Word.
Bust it.
Whistleblower!
You know the Eddie Snowden dem go blame.
By leaking secrets out.
Dem NSA are saying Eddie Snowden done betrayed USA.
By leaking secrets out.
Whistleblower!
Whistleblower!
You know the Eddie Snowden dem go blame.
By leaking secrets out.
Dem NSA are saying Eddie Snowden done betrayed USA.
By leaking secrets out.
Working upon a mental down in Hawaii.
Finding me suburban and not P.I.V.
Bustin' Babylon from way up on the sea for liberty.
So me decide to betray me safety.
For the sake of defending all me citizens in privacy.
If ya see somethin' said, so me follow me and be.
Whistleblower!
You know the Eddie Snowden dem go blame.
By leaking secrets out.
Dem NSA are saying Eddie Snowden done betrayed USA.
By leaking secrets out.
Well, dear viewers, that's about it for this edition.
But it wouldn't be complete without some final questions.
Whistleblowers, they leak in the public interest.
Now what remains to be known is, is the public interested?
If so, this might be a good day to exhibit it.
Ignorance is a choice in the age of the internet.
Many consider this all very bewildering.
Some praise these acts as heroic, worthy of mimicking.
Others condemn them as illegal and prohibited.
But can't both be equally applicative?
To be good humans, we're sometimes called upon to be bad citizens.
Bad citizens? What, like Floridia?
Where they have the lynch mob?
Anyway, it's 8 o'clock here on WBAI New York 99.5 FM.