And that wraps up today's program. The newscast was produced by Catherine Kopp. Headlines
editor was Jess Burns. Washington, D.C. editor was Tanya Snyder. Today's tactical production
team at KPFA in Berkeley is Rose Katopshi and Scott Pham. You can visit us online at
fsrn.org. You can send questions, comments, or news tips to comments at fsrn.org. Thanks
for listening. In New York, I'm Dorian Marina.
And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York. The time is 7 o'clock. Time once again for Off the Hook.
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And good in February the program is off the hook Emmanuel Goldstein here with you tonight joined by Mike
I thought Rhett Jim Rob T firefly good evening Voltaire howdy and Bernie s down there in Philadelphia greetings
from Philadelphia actually I'm somewhere else in Pennsylvania I just didn't want to confuse our
listeners so I just said greetings okay well you can say greetings from Pennsylvania Pennsylvania
okay well Bernie's in a mysterious place somewhere in Pennsylvania we're here to talk about all kinds
of new technology and new ways of thinking perhaps something that's really exciting that
I just found out about actually I'm sure a lot of us are following this with with bated breath
because we follow the the new trends and the new developments and inventions and things that will
be used in the future that to affect all of our lives of course I'm talking about what the Los
Angeles County Sheriff's Department has been trying out it's a new way to break up fights
between inmates a high-tech heat ray yeah it's called the assault intervention device it showers
a person with an intolerable heating sensation that's according to the sheriff's department
according to the inmates we can't print what they said about it but they agree pretty much that it's
an intolerable heating sensation inmates just have to step away from the heat ray to stop the pain
and authorities hope inmates will also step away from the scuffles they were in in the process we
believe it said Sheriff Lee Baca that technology can help solve problems facing the corrections
community including addressing issues of inmate violence the assault intervention device a ID a ID
it's it's the aid device yes it aids them in in in controlling their inmates appears uniquely
suited to address some of the more difficult inmate violence issues without the drawbacks
of tools currently available to us such as batons and feet and various other implements that they
use the heat device will be handy dealing with fights in an inmate's dormitory in the dining
room or exercise yard situations where jail officials often have to wait for backup to
safely deal with the situation this device will allow us to quickly intervene without having to
enter the area and without incapacitating or injuring either combatants instead they'll
simply blast them with intolerable heat weight heat rays and wow that is something now what I
wonder is what happens when there's no place for the inmate to step away to what happens when this
is beamed directly into their cell as as payback for something that they may have done at some
point what happens when this device is eventually used on the rest of us because this is what
happens they test things in the military they test things in prison then they use it on the rest of
us at demonstrations and various other gatherings where they want to control what it is we say and
what it is we do you can count on the assault intervention device being used at the next
convention to control free speech zones and and unruly activist and various things like that or
am I just being too pessimistic is this really something that that can help us Rob I don't know
are you really suggesting that those in positions of authority when given tools that are able to be
used unfairly against their enemies would do so I think they're almost expected to thanks of Walter
we've already seen those ear bleeding inducers use that demonstration so the loud things yeah
they've they've done that what was in Pittsburgh they did that recently yeah and and then in the
was it Toronto or Vancouver the purchase I was somewhere in Canada they use these things in
Toronto thank you they use these things in places like Iraq and Afghanistan then they use them here
at home and they they try things out in prison and then they try them out on the streets dot
red well based on this discussion before we go any further I want to throw out the question I mean
besides the fact that it seems pretty obvious that if they have tools that aren't necessarily
lethal that people say they're more willing to use it mm-hmm still a long range how many other
useful implements do they have besides guns so the question is what to break up fights haven't
been breaking up fights for decades now centuries even do they really need this this tool of the Sun
to burn people and to control them I'm prepared to argue me know that breaking up fights probably
like predates written history probably probably does in fact that's probably what they were
fighting about is how to start writing history yeah who knows but yeah this is um it's a torture
device there is no question about it but the way they're phrasing it they're making it sound like
such a such an amazing new device the assault intervention divine they're throwing assault in
there because it's it's battling the assault of the evil inmates and not defining itself as a
weapon well that sounds a lot better than saying that you're microwaving somebody which is yeah
who knows what the health effects will be Rob if it's such a peaceful non-lethal device are we
allowed to have them that's an interesting question I know Bernie you want to go in on
one of the question was is it the mic is this using microwaves and the fact the fact is yes
this is a microwave device that they plan to microwave humans with this thing if you there's
pictures of it you can just search up search through some search engine just look for Raytheon
that's war r-a-y-t-h-e-o-n and pain Ray this device was actually designed for use in the
in Iraq but after it was it was deployed but not used on for crowd control there once the
State Department realized this would not look really good in the eyes of the world that we
are microwave people who whose hearts and minds we were allegedly trying to trying to win so it was
called off and Raytheon was left with this product with with no market for it so they started
actively marketing it to the the correct the the correction industrial complex here in the United
States and LA County prison it would it was only was only too glad to to test it so that's where
it's gonna be deployed it looks like a like a like a small truck it's on a it's on a cart and
it's a big square panel maybe about four feet four feet on a side like a dish and you point it at
your target and switch it on and and they feel intense burning sensations on their skin and what
kind of a what kind of a range does it have how far can it go good question it looks like it's
a few tens of feet the larger ones that I saw demonstrated on with videos or maybe a couple
of 300 feet but this looks like a smaller one for use in in buildings so I would guess at least a
hundred some feet depending on they could probably adjust it a couple couple 300 feet but you said
it's like a small truck that means a couple of people are gonna need to carry it around this
isn't something you can hand carry this is something that's like a it's on like a like
one of these large office carts that you would wheel equipment around on so let me say I get
the scenario straight there's a fight going on somewhere in the prison and you know you're in
trouble when when the the mini truck gets backed in and people start setting up a satellite dish
looking thing and pointing it at you didn't that's enough time for the fight to stop don't you think
well you know it probably be a one or two correction officers would would wheel this
thing in then plug it in and switch it on but you know I would think that the the prisoners
would just move out of the way and can you continue fighting yeah clearly the the the
answer to this is to have it permanently mounted in various places but a very wide range so that
they could flick it on any moment and you know imagine somebody's trying to escape or just
walking out of line somewhere that's it's you just flick the thing on and then all of a sudden
they they towed the line or imagine if they were installed in in smaller rooms like individual
cells just only need to be switched on remotely when interrogation chambers for instance yeah
it's just someone was misbehaving or not answering the question we're not giving the right answer
Wow what happens if the prisoners have mirrors actually it's a good question it wouldn't be a
mirror you'd want you'd want a metal just basically a metal surface even tinfoil rolled out on some
sheets is street activists if this is used on them tinfoil is there nothing it can't do good stuff
you'd probably even use duct tape but yeah just a just a metal reflector a few feet in diameter or
square you could point it back at the at the at the attackers and that would be really interesting
to see what happens you probably get charged with something horrible oh you're well the rest of your
life in jail but it would be amusing for a few seconds I mean we hear about these developments
and technology that are used against people but when the people use it in the other direction
all of a sudden it's the worst crime in the world case in point the recent GPS case that was brought
out in the news where police are saying they should have the right to to trespass onto somebody's
property stick a GPS device onto their car without a warrant of any sort and and track their movements
and their rationale is well you know we can we can follow them anyway we can follow them in the car
they're in the public street so they don't have any expectation of privacy so why shouldn't we be
able to do this but if you flip the logic and and you decide hey I'd like to see where all the police
cars are going day and night and you put GPS devices on their cars all of a sudden you'll
find out that it is a crime it's a it's a big crime and a big violation of privacy there have
been a number of cases relating to this issue just in the past week or two and what's interesting is
that they conflict some of the circuit courts are saying that it's legal for the police to do
this and some of them are saying that the police need a warrant to do this so it's probably headed
to the Supreme Court yeah I would imagine so Walter no okay yeah so yeah go ahead Bernie
one of the interesting arguments at the most recent circuit court case I forget where it was
the federal judges a couple of them were saying well most of the judge the majority decision in
the most recent case which was saying it was a it was legal for for police to to creep onto your up
to driveway and attach one of these things to your car they were saying well you could if you
want privacy you could build a big fence around your property and the police wouldn't come on
there and then the minority opinion judges were saying well wait a minute this only ensures
privacy for for wealthy people who can afford to build a big high fence around their or moat
around their property I guess most judges since they get a high salary don't necessarily think
of things in terms of yeah it would cost a lot of money to build a big fence around your property
but isn't it isn't it trespassing just the same if you don't have a fence and somebody goes on to
your property as if you climb the fence and one of the decisions said one of the one of the opinions
from that court said that if it was put if the property was posted as private no trespassing
but without that no because because the past rulings along these lines have been for other
types of things where it's like you know sales people can walk up your driveway and knock on
your door and that's not trespassing unless it's posted no trespassing so if you don't want if you
want to positively protect yourself from having that surveillance used against you in court of
law if you can spaciously approach all your property with a no trespassing signs and or put
up a big fence then it would make it more difficult for it to be used on against you in court but
doesn't mean they won't use it on you how about those new devices that if somebody goes up to your
car and starts touching it still spikes come out and severely injure the person attempting to do so
that would be you would be found liable for injuring them because it doesn't matter that's
interesting Wow what if you don't own property what if you just rent a house or an apartment
somewhere and you don't have the right to stick signs up around that's a good question wow you
screwed then totally unbelievable GPS devices that we're not able to use against police it's
things are as simple as taking photographs are videotaping police and there are lots of states
that kind of outlaw that well if you actually videotape a cop doing their job or interrogating
somebody doing something wrong doing something right you're somehow violating their rights they
can do the same to you anyone else can do the same to you but if you do it to a cop all of a sudden
they become privacy advocates all of a sudden it's it's insane because that's that's how you you
actually find them committing all sorts of acts of wrongdoing and Rodney King and all kinds of
videotapes of cops doing bad things if they're if they're doing their job they should not object to
this and and that's probably why they don't want it to be done I mean you just named a few people
where situations anyway where Pete where cops are get in trouble because they hurt somebody and there
was videotaped to prove that they were in the wrong and personally I think that these kinds of
things are very important to have because the whole thing of who watches the watchers you know
well they're a bit more than just watchers they're enforcers as well but it's it still is true you
know if the public doesn't hold them accountable and we're not allowed to then and in this in this
day and age where we're videotaped surveillance is all the rage basically everywhere we go we're
on tape but there's a story this week about new subway cars having having all kinds of video
cameras in them and everyone's everyone's looking at that everyone's everyone's looking at that as
as a good thing you know it's a good thing but their video camera ready and I don't know who
everyone is but everyone if you look in the news if you read the news stories about this the public
the the authorities the police the the the MTA I have not seen negative comments in any of the
mainstream media I know I'll hear negative comments here I'll say negative comments myself
but if you look at the stories it's seen as a godsend well the MTA is running a trial with one
one subway car or two so one subway train sorry which is more than one car of course on it's on
the 8th Avenue line running this trial and they're not sure if it's a success or not so it might be
deemed a failure they have them on buses already they have cameras everywhere on buses well
apparently it's much harder to put them on subways I don't know I'm not exactly sure what the
difference is but and if you if you look at London if you look at Singapore and all various
other places in the world that have cameras everywhere basically what you wind up having
you have people that start demanding that you put more cameras up in the streets and on public
transportation to protect them because somehow they get lulled into this sensation that cameras
are good same thing that we see everywhere with increased security and I put that in double
quotes because we somehow are convinced that it's making a difference years ago to come to
this radio station for instance you didn't have to show any ID you just walk into a building and
come upstairs and visit us and now even even we here at the station or some of us here at the
station have the idea that you have to sign in you have to be listed on some master building
list to get in otherwise we're insecure how is that any different if you if you look at schools
today ask yourself does your school have an armed policeman in it it does well you know back back a
few years ago that would have been seen as extremely messed up now it's the norm and we
somehow convinced ourselves if we don't have that then there's something seriously wrong and we are
at risk so the same thing with the cameras same thing with all kinds of tools that are introduced
and you don't see the change happening until it's too late until it's already occurred what's
interesting is there are very few studies done to check if cameras actually deter crime or prevent
crime or anything I know how you would know well you could you could set up two similar cities one
with lots of cameras one with relatively few cameras parallel universes that's the only way I
can think there was a study done in the UK that showed that the effect of the cameras was to move
the crime like a block away where the camera wasn't or into the forest motivation then to put
up more cameras then you'll just keep pushing the crime out and out now that is that is the response
that people give that yeah we need more cameras because obviously it's pushing it away from the
cameras the cameras work but something else I wanted to say when you were mentioning about you
know security guards and schools and all these things how how you know we keep on having all
this extra securities it feels it feels like it's sort of like lowering the bar conditioning us that
that becomes the norm then when something bad happens what was wrong you know what do we need
to do to stop this from happening again and then we do some increase the security and before we
know it we're gonna end up with video cameras everywhere cops telling us to show them what's
inside of our bags which we already do in the subways actually already yeah we you know they
they've they've won they've won when people start asking and demanding for these intrusions into our
lives which is what they they really are it's it's that go ahead Bernie I want to say we were talking
a little bit earlier about about new laws are making it illegal for people to videotape a police
doing their jobs there's about a half dozen states that already have laws in the books that make it
a felony to record the audio of someone speaking without their consent or or knowledge and that
that's what these these new laws that are coming down the pike in some states or are addressing
it these are already states where it's illegal Pennsylvania being one of them I figured with
the other six I think can we prosecute our any of our listeners who might be recording us now
without our knowledge New York is not one of the six states that makes it a felony to record someone's
speech but what if they're somewhere whether in a different state and they're recording us
I don't think you're hearing me if they're in a different state we're recording us can
we prosecute our listeners I think you're saying no because this is a broadcast medium so we there's
no we have no expectation no reasonable expectation of privacy well no neither do people walking on
the street doing their their job why would they have a reasonable expectation of privacy doing
their I'm just that the law sometimes is an ass but what I wanted to do in this case what I wanted
to inform our listeners is if you do want to video record police in the act yes if there's any way
to turn off the audio recording portion of that with some cell phones you can't do that with a
lot of video cameras you can but if you just want to protect yourself against being charged with
some ridiculous law how about this Bernie I'll erase the audio after I determine that they haven't
done something so heinous that it won't matter because the audio will be captured and it'll show
them planning amongst themselves to to do all kinds of torture to somebody and if you reveal that to
the public maybe they'll overlook the fact that you recorded their audio without their permission
well that's a good question but in many cases the cops will probably grab grab the recording
before you get away but some states like Pennsylvania have an interesting exception
there's an exception to the rule if you're recording someone's audio covertly if they
are in the process of committing a felony then you're allowed to do it but you know if the police
confiscate it it's it's a whole there's no black and white but if the police confiscate it doesn't
matter if your audio is muted or not they've still confiscated it they're gonna confiscate it
and then charge you and they may edit out the parts where they were committing the felony on
the audio but it's the best practice is to try to mute the audio with your recordings of police
if you can yeah I don't agree because I think you should record as much as you possibly can
and if they try to charge you with something later you would simply erase the audio because
otherwise they could just take your equipment and say there's audio on there and there's no
way you can prove there isn't well I'm just giving out some advice I'm not a lawyer but
I'm saying that's what you should try to do if you want to avoid the audio law yeah I just I'm
never in favor of following stupid laws that wind up hurting you in the end I mean yeah I see what
you're saying but I think you know if if people can walk around all over New York City recording
things with video cameras it's ridiculous to say well when a cop shows up you got to mute the audio
you know here's another way around it if you tell the cop right then and there we're recording your
audio then they have no reasonable expectation of privacy because they've been advised that it's
being recorded you don't need their consent you just need to tell them they have no reasonable
expectation of privacy their audio is being recorded okay so what constitutes telling them
just shouting at them and like if they're in if they're in camera view and it seems evident that
they can hear you because they're not that far away from the person holding the camera and that
and that's recorded in with the recording that you're yelling at them saying or just politely
telling them loud enough for them to hear I'm recording audio and video you have no
reasonable expectation of privacy well what if we just put up signs all over New York City saying
police we are recording your audio you have no expectation of privacy with that suffice they can
say they wouldn't see the sign oh they can read I've seen proof of this I know that but but most
of them can I've checked this out of my own personal time Wow okay a lot to a lot to think
about tonight Wow all kinds of legal challenges okay now we were talking about a particular
challenge last week and I know a lot of people roll their eyes right back into their heads when
they hear about this we spent a lot of time talking about the new voting system in New York
that's taking place starting this month actually with primaries and for everybody in November now
the reason a lot of people are very impatient with us specifically when we discuss this is
because New York is the last state to to cut over to a different system we've been relying on the
huge mechanical clunking machines that have been around since since Abraham Lincoln times I happen
to like the machines but you know it's there are problems with them as as Micah said previously
there really is no paper chair I know a listener last week who works with the Election Bureau said
there was I think what he was referring to was the actual I don't know if it's paper tape or
whatever it is that that the machine actually generates and is somehow tabulated but there is
no actual ballots there's no way to actually recount other than to recount the the paper tape
or whatever that particular device is so yeah you know there there are ways of modifying their ways
of improving but I think what what New York has done and what many states have done is simply
make things worse now what I what I found I did a little bit of research on what's happening on
Long Island because every single county is doing this a little bit differently and there's a video
and obviously I can't show the video on the air but I can play the video on the air and and tell
you some of what's being said here and I think maybe maybe I can I can voice some of the concerns
that I have with the new system as it's being rolled out and maybe people here people on the
phone our listeners can call in and maybe convince me that it's not such a big deal or maybe see for
the first time or second or third time that yeah this is a really big deal and we should be worried
this is a video that Suffolk County Board of Elections has it's it's called it's here a new
way to vote in Suffolk County it's got a nice picture of a lighthouse I guess that just makes
you feel better let's let's listen to what they have to say and tear it apart it's here a new way
to vote in Suffolk County make sure your vote counts we are pleased to introduce you to the
new voting system this video will show you how easy it is to use we encourage you to familiarize
yourself with the simple steps to casting your paper ballot voting this way is fast and easy
and assures that your vote will be counted okay now let me just let me just stop you right there
because every time they say that it assures that your vote will be counted they're implying that
your vote isn't counted in any other system and that this is the only way your vote will be counted
I'm pretty sure my vote was counted before pretty sure I mean what why why well I mean the thing is
you can't point to any system and know that your vote was counted okay but what is the evidence for
your vote being counted on the big mechanical machine well I can throw that right back and say
what's the evidence that's gonna be counted on this I mean you can't audit your own vote in fact
I even heard that New York forbids recounts I don't know what that even means but there how do
you do it you tell me how it's done here I'll tell you how it's done there what no I think the
system's no good but but you keep praising the mechanical machines I'm saying they're no worse
than this okay that's a pretty low bar well it is a low bar when you consider how much money has
been spent on this so far and how confusing and complicated it's getting we're just at the
beginning of the video we haven't gotten 10 seconds into it let's listen listen to what
else is ahead of us let's get started yes there are three easy steps to voting one check in at
your election district okay that's that's the same as we did before very easy to mark your
paper ballot okay and we would clunk the machine and throw the little lever down we don't mark a
paper ballot in the old system but okay and three must be pulling that lever to close the curtain
right and three insert your paper ballot in the tabulator huh insert my paper ballot in the
tabulate okay I don't know what a tabulator is but I guess I'm gonna I'm gonna find out
we'll begin with checking in at your election district when you arrive at the poll site be
sure to go to the table that matches your election district or ED there may be multiple election
districts at your poll site if you do not know your election district please visit our website
at www.suffolkvotes.com or call 631-852-4554 okay I should point out this is pretty much the same
you walk into an election district and and you go to the right tables and you find where you're
where you're supposed to go what particular machine you're supposed to go to I'd just like
to point out that they suggested you visit a website on that website you're right I'm on a
website already that doesn't make any sense well okay you know what that's that's that's the theme
that's the hardest part of the whole thing is finding the right table it really but it's it's
not it's always changing yeah but the thing is you walk into the room there's somebody there
actually you know what it is and they never know how to work there's a book that that they can look
in to tell you which table you're supposed to go to and the people at the table sitting all day
with the book never know how to work if you know your election district which is on a little piece
of paper they send you in the mail you simply go to the right table if you know your name they look
up your name and then you sign a piece of paper and then you go into the voting booth and you
vote and you leave that's that's what it is that's how it has been it's very simple so far nothing
has changed but let's let's hear what what's new when you arrive at your election district give
your name to the inspector he's giving his name to the inspector then sign the poll roster book
he's signing the book now then the inspector will provide you with three items a paper I'm sorry
he's saying he's gonna supply you with a paper ballot and when we never were supplied with
anything before we simply was said we're told to go ahead but okay I saw I interrupted paper
ballot is the first item paper ballot a secrecy sleeve and an ED card whoa okay I'm sorry a
secrecy sleeve that's the silliest thing I think I've ever heard and an ED card okay you know
that's nice I'm getting all these things I walk in it's kind of like I'm getting gifts of various
sorts but really I just want to vote that's all I want to do is walk in there vote and leave and
now I've got all these items in my hand I got a paper ballot a secrecy sleeve secrecy sleeve and
an ED card why do I need to carry three items and and where am I going with these three I do
get a pen oh good question Mike good question let's find out the paper ballot is used to cast
your vote in case you didn't know what a paper ballot was okay the ballot may have two sides
whoa whoa whoa hold on a second the ballot may have two sides may have two sides okay when when
I voted before I go into the booth and you know what it's all right there in front of me I never
had to flip something over to see if maybe there's something on the other side you know maybe there's
something in the back of the voting machine that I have to go and and throw the lever there may
have two sides come on where does it tell you if there are two sides I need to know that when I go
in are you really having trouble with this or you're just like hamming it up for no I'm not
hamming it up seriously how many people are going to flip every piece of paper over to see if
there's something on the other side that's something we never had to do before I think
it's valid may have two chances if they only get on one side and the machine tells them hey
hey you forgot you think the machine's going to do that well you have a lot of faith in machinery
let's let's uh let's let's let's take a listen to what else
okay there's something on the other side there one side has the contests with candidates
we're looking at the candidates here
actually uh yeah these are fake well if they're fake names i'm seeing james mccormick david
goodsell randy hynix i don't know who these people are but they're various uh justices of
the supreme court in the 10th judicial district i'm not sure if that's fake or not but uh yeah
it looks pretty much like the um uh the thing you would see in a mechanical voting booth
but that's on the that's on the first side nothing about the second side yet
there may also be proposals or questions brought before the voters
in which case they will appear on the other side of the ballot now explain to me please why can't
it all fit on one side like it used to why do we have to flip pieces of paper over um and
potentially not see something it just seems like they're making it really easy to miss things
this was something i didn't like about the old voting machines because sometimes there
would be these proposals and things but they'd be 20 rows down after the main contests and so
you might not know to look all the way down and look at every row but that's on the same side if
you couldn't see it on the same side what are the odds that you'll see it on the other side where
it's not even visible unless you flip the thing over i'm just you know i'll flip things over i'll
look at all different angles and and see if things are there i'm just saying not everybody is going
to do that think of your 86 year old grandmother not that there's anything wrong with 86 year old
grandma i'm just saying people sometimes new technology is a little bit uh confusing and uh
and uh it just seems like uh there's a potential here dot right maybe they made an executive
decision and decided they couldn't make the ballot possibly make it any bigger than it already was
is all these executive decisions i don't know let's uh let's keep listening
the secrecy sleeve ensures the secrecy of your ballot by covering your ballot after you have
finished voting okay that just sounds silly i'm sorry but um covering your ballot after you've
finished voting covering it from who exactly should it already be in the tabulator then if
you already voted it's i mean these are extra steps that i'm not used to and uh i'm sure it's
gonna our new york city listeners will be pleased to know that this is only not this doesn't happen
in new york oh there are no secrecy sleeves in there it's different it's a different machine
or something really okay so we don't have the same system so if i if i move from new york city
you know out to uh suffolk county i will be totally confused and not know how to you're
totally confused anyway you know how much i can do to help you if we're confused imagine imagine
how confused uh a lot of other people will be that uh don't deal with technology on a daily basis
let's keep listening the ed card identifies your election district and the machine that is assigned
to receive your completed ballot can somebody please explain what he just said because i don't
get that i thought i already was in the right uh the right polling area based on what they told me
at the table what's this ed card that tells me what electric election district i'm i mean what
is that it seems like i'm doing the same thing twice can anybody explain this the table has the
region they give you the card and that card is associated with that region so you're not explaining
it i've already gone to the right well you have to do it all over again because first you have to
go to the right people and then you then they give you the thing so you can tell so you can
tell the machine that you're at the right if i've already checked in what's the point of an ed card
that's all i'm gonna go through the electronic machine i don't get that let me have to go through
the electronic the ed card goes to the machine what are you you're trying to confuse yourself
and you're succeeding i'm asking questions here i'm asking questions and i i don't hear any answers
rob do you have an answer i i think i've got this um you go to the correct table for your district
they hand you the proper ballot and the proper ed card so that's how you know you got the right
ballot for your district then once you've uh filled it out and done your thing you've still
got the card which uh makes sure you go to the right machine for your district now to get that
tabulated no i'm sorry i've i've gone to the right table yes right they they find my name they send me
to the machine so isn't that enough why do you need a card they don't they don't send you to the
machine they send you off to go fill in your uh boxes and then you have to then you have to get
yourself uh to the right machine which is why you have the card have you ever had to um fill out a
paper ballot in the past no as you can see this is new to me okay so i have because i i guess i
move more often than you and the board of elections is kind of incompetent so they sometimes do and
sometimes don't transfer my registration and sometimes they send me a piece of paper saying
they transferred it and then when i get there it turns out they didn't and and what they do
is you it sounds real smooth to me yeah and they give you a paper ballot and you fill it out and
you give it back to them and it's it's really not that hard what about your ed card you didn't
mention an ed card i didn't have the ed card right well you see this is the point but you know what
if they gave me two things i could hand them both back to them what happens if i don't hand back the
ed card what happens if i keep the ed card they get a heat ray and fire all right let's continue
that is all there is to checking in at your election district
realize we've only gone through one step so far there are three okay let's continue now to step
two marking your paper ballot oh boy you will need to select a privacy booth before marking
your ballot the privacy booths will be arranged in pairs when selecting a booth please be aware
of other voters do not walk behind a voter while he or she is voting are you kidding me there's a
there's a there's a video here of some guy walking around the back of somebody where he can totally
see what it is they're doing uh there aren't little booths anymore with curtains around them
you're basically at a table in a room where you can make eye contact with all sorts of other people
they can see what you're doing where you're looking uh it's very different from the privacy
that you used to get inside a voter booth and you have to walk around the right not around the left
if you walk around the left and you're you're basically in the booth with the person i wonder
how many times that's going to happen instead walk around the other side of the booth
now you are ready to review the ballot the ballot may be printed on both sides
okay now we see there's this little desk area uh where there's a looks like a pin attached to
the wall with a string of some sort uh this person has nicely placed their ed card on the table and
their ballot on the table as well and they're setting up shop there uh in the uh little tiny
space that they have uh to do this uh right next to somebody else who they can easily communicate
with familiarize yourself with the contests which appear across the top row of the ballot
okay we're looking at the fake names again
take special note of the number of choices you are allowed to make in each contest now this is
another extra step that we didn't have to take before because the mechanics of this process
we didn't have to take before because the mechanical machines simply were programmed
not to let you pick more than what you're allowed to pick if you don't take special
note of how many names you can you can check off and you get it wrong guess what you have
to start all over again or have your vote not counted the parties appear down the left-hand
column of the ballot in some cases a candidate may be listed in more than one party
okay we see many instances of that you only vote for them once
to select a candidate use the pen provided in the booth which i assume means you can't
use your own pen you got to use that pen i'm not really sure if that's true or if you can
use a pencil or or whatnot but what's interesting here is i said the the pen was attached by a
string or a cord to the table that's not entirely true at least not in this example
only the pen cap is attached according to this uh you simply take the pen out of the pen cap
which remains securely fastened to the table but the pen you're free to take with you
to make your selection fill in the oval completely next to the candidate's name
okay we see the guy filling it in very completely very perfectly just like i'm not make any stray
marks and do not use an x or check to mark your ballot yeah don't use x don't use checks and all
this silence that you're hearing right now they're showing you all the different ways not to mark
things no x's no checks uh no slashes no circles because if you do any of that your vote's not
going to count you have to do it you have to fill in that box exactly and not too much not too little
you got to get it just right unbelievable make sure you fill in the oval completely
yeah whereas before you threw a lever now you got to get this if you would like to write in a
candidate whose name does not appear for a contest print the candidate's name in the write-in box at
the bottom of the column for that contest have you ever successfully cast a write-in vote on on those
mechanical machines i've never actually done a write-in yeah yeah because no one knows how to do
it well you know when's the last time a write-in candidate even got more than one percent of a vote
well in new york city they don't count the right they don't even count it's against the law you
could sue them if you're a writing candidate and win but in past at least i voted for candidates
and my vote hasn't been counted because no one knows how to work the write-in button yeah well
the right in that's uh that's an issue that i think is uh is ongoing but this this goes beyond
all that okay we're looking at the right in line at the bottom now he's writing in adam smith
your ballot is complete when you have made all of your selections for the contests and proposals
be sure not to select more candidates than a contest will allow if you do your ballot will
be rejected due to an overvote and that's the error we mentioned last week the overvote error
people that's a word that people are going to have to get used to is overvote
and i imagine that's going to happen quite a bit
after you have finished marking your ballot please review your selections to make sure
you voted the way you want that is all there is to marking the ballot of course
unlike in the mechanical system what if you decide to change your mind what happens then you've just
marked it with a pen uh many is the time i've been in the mechanical machine and i've changed
my mind and i've i've gone back and forth a little bit what you've never done that you've
never changed your mind well if you change your mind after marking you have to get another ballot
and you know what you can only do that three times yeah three three chances you get apparently
sorry then you have to see a judge or something after the third time i don't know all right let's
continue the final step is to insert your paper ballot in the tabulator before going to the
tabulator put your ballot in the secrecy sleeve oh boy it doesn't matter which direction it goes in
so basically you're putting you're putting your ballot into this uh semi envelope thing and uh the
only purpose of that envelope is to is to hide what it is uh that you've done from people around
you i suppose but you got it you got to insert it just right and sort of feed it in manually
go to the tabulator whose color matches your ed card and hand your ed card to the inspector
so now there's a person standing by what looks like a copying machine and you hand them uh um
what you hand them the card and uh you wind up feeding in your your your ballot
make sure to protect the secrecy of your vote by placing the ballot in the secrecy sleeve
while inserting the ballot in the tabulator okay who can repeat that anybody repeat what that guy
just said oh my god it's uh it's gonna be fun now next you'll insert your completed ballot
into the tabulator grasp the side of your ballot and slide it into the tabulator
wow this is going so slowly the machine will process your ballot and will display a message
once the ballot is successfully cast and look how long it takes for that to happen
there return the secrecy sleeve to the inspector after voting what happens if i don't do that they
have no more secrecy at the uh the polling place i'm just thinking of all the things that i've been
given i've been giving this ed card a secrecy sleeve a paper ballot um and a pen so you stole
the pen well it didn't say i couldn't do that but um i was never able to take things away before and
of course also another thing uh with this new system it requires all this power that the old
system didn't require i mean manual materials apparently having these sleeves and these papers
they don't require power but the actual tabulator does this is all stuff that they're i feel like
it's almost like a waste of material well yeah there's a lot of extra material here a lot of
cost has gone into this let's uh conclude this okay they're leaving now you've just completed
voting it's that simple voting this way is fast and easy and assures that your vote will be counted
for more information please visit our website at www.suffolkvotes.com or call 631-852-4554
of course there's not a whole lot you can do about it that's the system at least in suffolk
county and that's what uh we're going to have to uh to deal with looking forward to this vulture
well it's too bad that this is uh suffolkcountyvoting.com as opposed to .gov
yeah i'm not sure what that's all about because then it'd be .gov of the week now bernie you're
in pennsylvania is this the kind of system you've been using no they have a in philadelphia county
where i reside um they have a a membrane uh voting system it's a big uh it's a big uh plastic you
walk up to a machine that has a a big plastic overlay and behind that uh red leds that uh light
up when you press the the press the plastic sheet behind which there's a momentary switch
but for for the suffolk hold suffolk county listeners who just heard that suffolk county
voting video um a lot of people in suffolk county have horses and would know why you can't walk
behind uh someone who's voting uh just like horses you can't you shouldn't walk behind them
because they will kick you and if you walk behind a voter in suffolk county they might kick you
is that really the strongest defense we can come up with here i'll tell you if someone walks behind
me i'm gonna cause uh holy hell you should react like a horse would well there's all kinds of all
kinds of mischief with all these devices plugged in and and things that um i don't know just i can
hardly wait actually there there are a bunch of things they tell you not to do they say uh make
sure you mark the thing perfectly don't make any extraneous marks now if i make an extraneous mark
somewhere is it going to tell me where the extraneous mark is or do i have to figure it
out when it rejects it and start all over again what if there are extraneous marks already on the
ballots uh what do you do then and and what happens if i replace the pen with a pen that
either doesn't work or maybe has um uh invisible ink that'll disappear or something like that so
then a recount will be completely useless all kinds of things you can do i mean i'm not trying
to cause trouble well i am trying to cause some trouble but you know i think these are questions
that should have been asked and uh maybe there was a way to take a system that that uh was pretty
solid and and reliable and improve it so that there was a paper trail rather than introducing
you know there's nothing worse than bad software i think we've all used bad software
uh where um maybe we're using a version of something and and somebody decided they were
going to upgrade it and it stops working from that point on we've all been there this has all
the makings of that to me where it just uh is confusing error messages all kinds of conditions
ways that you have to uh basically conform to the software rather than have the software
uh follow your needs emmanuel yes one other thing uh uh one other point of confusion i think
listeners who just heard that suffolk county bidding voting video is the the term ed card
the pharmaceutical industry has has widely promoted the term ed to to as to define a uh
a particular a medical malady electro uh erectile dysfunction so i'm wondering if this is going to
cause confusion and flaccid ballots in suffolk county you know i i'm getting the feeling bernie
if you're not taking this as seriously as you might uh with some of the defenses you're coming
up with here i think there are some really uh legitimate questions to be uh to be asked
uh without coming up with scenarios of horses kicking you in erectile dysfunction
but um i don't know i guess we can battle it on all different all different fronts rob
you know i've been living in suffolk county all my life and um you know first of all i was never
issued my horse so uh if bernie you could look into that for me but um also i've been i've been
watching people every year um get really confused by the machines that have been around since
time immemorial okay what are some of the confusing things that people find with with
the old mechanical machines i am curious about that i think with the old mechanical machines um
i i particularly remember an incident where somebody was angry that they couldn't pull more
than one lever and they were like shouting about it and that that was a safety feature
they couldn't put more if they did put more in one level they won't lever they would have
overvoted now they can mark more than one ballot but if they do that their votes not going to be
counted so uh wasn't that a way of protecting them yeah um but if if uh if those if those
machines were confusing people what are the new ones going to do at least at least we had the uh
safety sleeves to hide our arterial dysfunction yeah these safety sleeves they're they're
intriguing to me i can hardly wait to get my hands on one all your questions and worries are just
making me think you know why wasn't there just simply some sort of a competition where they
picked out whatever they wherever the most uh the best performing things and let the public
decide that's supposedly what they did years ago when uh not kevin and i went up up and jim you
were there i don't i don't remember we went uptown we went uptown and um and and and played
with these machines and made all kinds of suggestions but of course uh those suggestions
aren't really counted the questions we asked weren't really answered those machines seem cheap
confusing and uh not very reliable back then and i i fear they will be when they're put into
practice this is the same issue a lot of non-profits get uh where they end up choosing the product
especially with software that has the biggest marketing budget as opposed to the actual best
product and it's it's um problem that a lot of industries face when they go out to purchase
privatized well i mean just ask yourself how many times are these corporate improvements that we're
faced with uh whether it be your your uh banking statement having a new look based on your feedback
to uh new features of your favorite piece of software how many times does it seem like it's
going in the reverse direction that's not really helping you at all this is our vote this is uh
the the foundation of a democratic society it's something that i think we should take very
seriously we're taking phone calls 212-209-2900 if you have any uh feedback questions um if you
call me from a different state i'm sure you're going to be very angry with us for wasting all
this time on something you probably been dealing with for many years but new york is the last state
to uh to make this jump i'd like to hear from people in different countries maybe uh you have
a better way of of doing things i do think there are ways that this can be handled uh that cover
all the um all the concerns and and um and and are uh are safe for example well okay uh if if you
have um something that um let's say an on-screen um metro card looking machine okay because i like
the metro card machines here in new york and you simply place all your all your votes there
on the screen and then something is printed out an actual card an actual piece of paper is printed
out showing what you voted for and you approve that piece of paper goes into a tray and the
electronic vote is cast you have your paper trail you have your electronic voting next to each other
what's wrong with a system like that and why could why couldn't that have been piggybacked
onto the mechanical system that existed before well it can't be piggybacked because the mechanical
system doesn't have those kinds of features oh no well they could be uh enhanced they can't because
no one makes the mechanical machines no one makes them because nobody uses them that's the reason
no one makes them if we use them they'd make them don't you see it's a catch-22 that doesn't make
any sense at all but it makes perfect sense if you stop using something if you stop buying
something then guess what they're not going to make them anymore if everybody still used these
things and they'd make them if if new york state bought the system you just described and that very
slow talking man who just narrated the video that we just watched described that new system equally
as slowly you would interrupt him every three seconds and say it was complicated just the same
what's complicated about uh pressing buttons indicating what you want to vote for seeing
confirmation of that on a piece of paper hitting yes walking away it's much more complicated than
filling in a bubble on a piece of paper okay except there are so many ways to do it wrong
there's so many ways to press the wrong button on a screen there's so many wrong ways to do anything
wrong show me show me we'll go to a metro card machine later you can show me how many wrong ways
there are to buy a two dollar metro card it's it's it's really simple when things are are done right
and this just isn't done right let's take some phone calls good evening you're on off the hook
yeah hi hi what's on your mind yeah i went to vote last time i went to vote they uh
because i live on the lower east side right i went to a 10th street uh school and uh they didn't allow
me to vote they said they couldn't find my name on the thing okay well i don't think this system's
gonna gonna fix that in any way it's got nothing uh to do with electronic or um or uh mechanical
voting what they should have let you do is cast something called an affidavit ballot where you can
vote anyway and it gets set aside and then it's determined uh later if you were in fact allowed
to vote or not um it sounds like a case of poor training if they didn't let you do that yeah but
again that poor training is going to translate itself to any kind of system good evening you're
on off the hook speak up hello yes go ahead uh computer show um no not the computer show
we're off the hook get the show right good evening you're on off the hook good evening
emmanuel this is bobson from bulgaria hey bulgarian caller how are you all right i have a
couple questions about what you talked earlier today okay uh the not trespassing thing with the
cars and the gps devices what happens if you put the no trespassing bumper stickers on your car
is that gonna remember these are police they can do whatever they want so uh good question yeah i
don't think i don't think they'd respect it you know they simply well i i'm talking can you have a
case about there being a no trespassing sign on the car and then there's somebody
doing the opposite of it well another thing i when you discuss
go ahead oh i just got some um the the other thing you somebody said that uh there were
usb ports on the new voting machines i haven't gotten to that and believe me if there are usb
ports i'm going in there with a hard drive i'm going to see what i'm going to see what's possible
i mean you know believe me if there was a usb port on a mechanical machine i would have done
the same thing but i know what i what i hear there is there are devices that plug into usb ports and
pretends to be keyboards or mice or whatever and they are they look like a cap on the usb
port so it's it's a very small device that is can i can i ask you how how is voting
done in bulgaria what kind of system do you use there uh you select a piece of paper among uh
several many uh about a dozen or maybe two dozen pieces of paper with the names printed on it put
it in an envelope put the envelope in a big transparent box and then somebody counts it
afterwards that's uh that's pretty high tech isn't it and no one ever has any trouble placing a piece
of paper in an envelope well not really well i haven't heard of anybody all right apparently
you guys are more talented than emmanuel believes suffolk county voters to be listen you give us
you give us that kind of a system i think i think we can handle it i think it would also be a lot
more secure than what they're unleashing on us here uh listen thanks for your call we're going
to try and move on and see uh what other people have to say good evening you're on off the hook
speak up please yes hello hi what's on your mind yeah uh guys i'm the election uh inspector that
has called several times and you seem to remember me emmanuel you called last week right yes i did
okay make it fast emmanuel you're you're cute and positive but let's stay positive uh we're going to
try and do our best now i got a question there's four different voting districts in the gym i'm in
and they're telling us they don't have funding for extra pens what's going to happen when somebody
takes a pen from another district do they think they're going to come over to mine because what
you can see is the whole privacy screen and desk being pulled away as they try and pull our pen
away what do you think then we'll see how honest and dishonest some of the other elections inspectors
are well i'm kind of curious what kind of pens are being used is there only a particular type
of pen that'll work they haven't told us that no no they just only said that they don't have
funding for extra pens but some will be supplied in the kit i just think there are so many ways
things can get messed up but uh you don't prove me wrong well we'll we'll find out i wanted to
call in with a tongue-in-cheek thing like that all right thanks uh listen what i'm going to do
is i'm going to personally email 2600 and let's get an open forum going and uh it's all good i
don't have anything i'm going to give you illegally because that's not fair no you know
i'm i'm a respectable elections inspector that's it and i'm 2600 all right well that's good to
know you're out there looking out for our interest and uh yeah feed us whatever information you can
we'd like to uh to hear about it let's uh take some more calls good evening you're on off the hook
it's on your mind with that gps already there's a battle in the supreme court over whether
like a police helicopter needs a search warrant with a thermal heat unit you know
to walk you know search determine whether there's marijuana going in that house with the gps like
with the five support you know with national security uh listening devices it doesn't hurt
because i mean you don't want you don't want political police if i can't see a court refusing
the police a warrant to attack somebody in criminal activity i just can't see yeah they
tend not to refuse those warrants it's very true and um uh i'm afraid of uh what this is going to
lead to which is precisely what makes it so worrying that they don't even want to get a
warrant you know when they could get a warrant and almost automatically and they think that's
too much hassle it's it's a little worrying one last phone call good evening you're on off the
hook hi emmanuel how you doing uh as a disability advocate i like you testified all over upstate new
york about these help of their america vote act machine that were supposedly put in to help the
disabled vote and i have a visual problem and i just received this week a uh brochure from the
board of elections that says state step four review the screen and basically what it's asking
you demanding that you do is interact with a touch screen and in the partially sighted community that
uses paper we for the most part have a saying that if they can't photograph the screen it's not going
to be uh... good enough for a disabled person to see and uh... they have a right here a picture
and it looks like an empty etch-a-sketch screen it's probably one of those cheap screens
okay we have to wrap this up actually nobody with a visual disability this is going to
disenfranchise us all right we're going to have to see if that actually holds true that's very
disturbing if it does write to us oth at 2600.com be back next week probably talking about this and
other issues 2600 meetings this friday all over the world uh... have a good night
that was special
and today is a very special day for a little young man who turned one years old today one single uno
miles jasper stern he's this young man that i've met out there whose name is miles
and that's what you know his name he's such a cool young man but now it is 8 p.m. this
september the first two thousand and ten