We are going to monitor what the Air Force Academy is doing about this and we're going
to speak to witnesses and people who were involved in getting attacked or being discriminated
against.
We will work with our attorneys at Americans United and see what our options are.
We may even sue the Air Force Academy.
In Colorado Springs, Colorado, I'm Maria Cecile Collier for Free Speech Radio News.
Free Speech Radio News is produced at Pacifica Stations WBAI in New York, KPFK in Los Angeles,
and KPFA in Berkeley.
And this is Radio Station WBAI in New York, where it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bondedly bond for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bondedly bond!
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Maria Goldstein here with you for the next hour or so.
With a special fundraising edition.
An extra fundraising edition, if you will.
We had our fundraiser a couple of weeks ago here on the station.
We did great, thanks to everybody who called in.
But we've received a number of emails from people, and phone calls, and visits even,
that people wanted to pledge and they missed the show.
Now is your chance, we'll be giving you details in just a few moments.
We have a full cast of characters tonight.
I use that term pretty lightly.
Jim is here.
Hello.
And Mike.
Hi.
Redbird, Walter.
Good evening.
Joonce is here.
Hello.
Joining us on the phone, Bernie S. from Philadelphia.
Greetings.
I'm just recovering from my sunburn at the Dayton Hamvention.
And Rob from Amsterdam also joins us.
Hello there.
And you're on a very strange phone connection of some sort.
Redhacked is on his way back from New Orleans.
And Arsene is at the Kraftwerk concert.
You bastard.
But that aside, yes, we had an interesting time out in Dayton, Bernie.
We certainly tore up the town, I guess.
Any highlights that you'd like to recount?
It's just great meeting hundreds or thousands, really thousands of people.
You met thousands of people?
Well, there were probably 20 or 30,000 people there.
I'm sure thousands of people stopped by the 2600 van.
And it's just good to talk with readers and listeners to the show in person.
It's just a lot of fun meeting kindred spirits.
Yeah, we did meet a lot of kindred spirits.
And we got to wander around the town.
We saw Star Wars and had all kinds of fun occasions.
Redbird, you were there too for the first time.
What are your impressions?
They don't have sidewalks.
Dayton doesn't have sidewalks.
I never thought of that, but you're right.
It's true.
We had to walk from one mall to another.
And it was not possible unless you wanted to jump on plants and whatnot.
But, oh yeah, there's all kinds of neat cheap stuff that you can grab there.
And it's definitely a one-of-a-kind experience.
At the Hamvention.
At the Hamvention.
Not just in Dayton.
No, not just in random places.
You can grab cheap stuff in Dayton, I'm sure.
But we didn't do that.
And, of course, we want to thank our friend Lurid out there in Dayton
for showing us around and keeping us safe.
Because it's a very dangerous place sometimes.
Yes, it was very fun.
Yeah.
So you guys all walked away with radios and scanners and things like that?
And radiation detectors.
Walter, you got something too, didn't you?
Yeah, I got a survey meter, an old civil defense survey meter.
A survey meter?
Yes.
Is that something that they use for polls or something?
It's like the Nielsen device.
It's something, well, something like the Nielsen device.
It measures radiation exposure.
Radiation exposure?
Yeah.
Oh, that's very trendy.
What have you found so far?
I actually haven't found anything.
I've been very disappointed.
I've been walking around the city with this device
and I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary.
Everything looks not radioactive to me.
Only you would be disappointed by a result like that.
Very disappointed.
But you once found radiation in your dishes.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of old dishes, things like that.
And bathroom tiles, specifically, were glazed.
Bathroom tiles are radioactive.
Why in God's name would they be radioactive?
My sister's bathroom.
Uranium oxides have this nice yellow color
and they use them to glaze bathroom tiles and dishes.
You know, your survey meter has this nice yellow color.
It does.
Yeah, that's it sitting on the table.
It looks like a traffic light almost.
Yeah.
It's pretty big.
It's very noticeable.
So I don't want to scare anyone on the subway.
I kept it in my bag.
You know, just thinking, walking around the subway
with that device, my goodness.
It's too bad this is radio because,
picture this big rectangular device,
almost a foot in length and half that in width.
Maybe a little smaller than that.
It screams radiation.
It does.
What's on the front?
Oh my goodness, it's like a handle coming out
and a little round dial with a meter.
It's got this really cool civil defense logo
on the side from, you know, the 60s or so.
So after this show, we're going to go over
to the New York Stock Exchange and get the cops nervous.
And we'll take a survey.
You may do that.
You may do that.
Without the device.
Oh boy.
Have you done anything else with it besides scare people?
Yeah, I've been looking around.
My sister had radioactive bathroom tiles.
It's true that a lot of, you know,
Fiestaware is famous for this.
It was glazed.
The glaze, the coloring in the glaze had uranium in it.
So plates, dishes are radioactive.
I actually had a friend who had a kind of heirloom dishes
from her grandmother that were radioactive.
And you got those dishes for a song,
I believe, after she wanted to get rid of them.
I got them for free, yes.
And the best thing about them is they keep your food warm.
It's a great negotiating tool there
to get something for cheap.
Oh yeah, your car is radioactive.
Take it off my hands.
Now, Jint, you also attended Dayton.
Any comments from you?
I was surprised.
I didn't realize it would be as much fun as it was.
I figured, you know, Dayton.
Hanging out with us, no matter where you go,
it's going to be fun.
I was told where I was going.
They're like, well, what's in Dayton?
Why are you going there?
But I had a really good time.
I think I'm a lifer now.
Even the trip back where we had to stop on I-78
for over an hour and watch as something
happened up the road.
That was interesting.
That was fun, yeah.
And congratulations to Walt, who got his license there.
I got my FCC license at Dayton.
Your FCC, your ham license.
I'm licensed by the FCC to transmit on the amateur bands.
Well, then go ahead and transmit away.
Not here, though.
Okay.
Any other thoughts on Dayton before we move on
to other subject matter?
No.
Okay.
Well, Rob from Amsterdam joins us.
And if you've been reading the 2600 website recently,
you might have noticed a story there about a problem
that has come up with regards to the upcoming
What the Hack conference in July.
Now, there have been updates.
There are all kinds of details to fill in.
So I'll just let Rob do that.
Tell us what happened and what's happening now.
Okay.
Can you hear me?
I hear you just fine.
Okay.
We're organizing the What the Hack conference.
Your listeners may know a little bit about it.
It's a continuation of these every four-year conferences
that we've been doing mostly since 1989.
And every edition has seen its problems.
Every edition has seen its sort of antagonism
with the Dutch authorities.
In 93, they tried to sort of antagonize the people
that were renting the campsite to us,
which is sort of the Dutch automobile association,
I guess you would call them.
In 97, the National Forest Service,
the Dutch National Forest Service,
got a visit from people that said they would be
accomplices to any crime
that could possibly be committed there,
which the National Forest Service said,
no, we won't be.
Sorry.
Then in 2001, they tried the same thing
with the university.
And now they're trying it
with the Boxtel municipality,
where this estate is,
where we're going to be having this year's edition.
What we've received from the mayor of that municipality
is a nice letter that says,
in light of the fact that there is grave fear
that this event will endanger law and order
as well as public safety,
I in my capacity as an authorized official
am herewith informing you
that I will not issue such a permit,
which we felt was sort of uncalled for.
So we organized a small protest,
wrote some letters,
got other people to write lots of letters.
And I think we're in the process
of resolving it.
In fact, tomorrow,
which is a mere nine hours from now,
I'll be having a meeting with these people.
And we're going to straighten the last sort of details out.
And I expect to have a permit for the event
in my hands really soon.
Now, Rob, you say this happens every time.
Is there a reason why it happens,
I don't want to say at the last minute,
but pretty close?
We're two months away from this thing.
Is this a tactic of theirs?
Last time it happened much closer.
Last time it was two weeks before the event
that they tried to scare
the College of Deans of the university
into becoming accomplices again
to all these horrible crimes
that we would be committing.
And how many horrible crimes
did you actually commit?
Well, that's the fun thing.
We haven't had any incidents since 1989.
We have a 16-year incident-free event,
which bothers them to no end.
And I should point out
that's simply because
that's when you started the events,
not that there was a horrible crime in 1989.
No, no, no, no.
We started the events in 1989
and we haven't had any incidents
since our inception.
Okay.
They've been sending ever more cyber cops
to look at us,
to study what we do,
to sit around and show that
the Dutch state cares about law and order.
But much to their dismay,
they haven't been able
to uncover any crimes.
And I think the realization
just won't set
that we're not committing any.
Mm-hmm.
Well, now, of course,
we all have a perception
of the Netherlands
as a very sort of a liberal oasis
where you can pretty much
do whatever you want.
Everyone's all laid back.
There are no problems whatsoever.
Are we mistaken in that assumption?
I would advise anyone
with those sort of ideas in their head
to read up on the last 10 years
of Dutch history
because whatever was there
that resembles that
is going down the tubes
really, really, really fast.
Mm-hmm.
Unfortunately.
You guys just had an election today, actually,
where I think a lot of people
said no to the current government.
Is that true?
Well, it was a referendum, actually,
on whether or not
we should ratify the treaty
that is mistakenly called
the European Constitution.
And people voted overwhelmingly,
in fact, voted no,
which is more seen
as a statement
against the current government
than it is as a statement
against this particular treaty.
Now, are those people
who are against the government
because they're not clamping down enough
on law and order
or people more along your lines?
Well, that's the weird thing
about a referendum
where you can only say yes and no
is usually the opposition
to whatever the government point of view.
The government is a coalition
from the center,
so the opposition comes
from the two extremes,
left and right,
of that center.
So it's really hard
to say what that no means.
In France, it's more clear
that the no,
because they had a referendum
about a week ago,
and it was also,
the outcome was also no.
And there you can sort of say,
well, that's linked to xenophobia.
It's more coming from the right.
It's Front National,
which is the sort of extreme right
in France.
And here it's,
I would guess you would say
it's more from the left.
So it's hard to say what it means.
Well, the thing is,
people are expressing themselves,
and hopefully that will lead you
in a positive direction.
But with regards to this kind of event
that's coming up in July,
you've had several of them.
You've always been challenged
close to the last minute.
What can we expect to happen next?
Well, my fear is sort of
that for lack of any crimes
being committed there,
at some point they'll just
make crimes happen there.
How so?
Well, they've tried
really, really hard
to stick crimes to us.
They've tried really hard
to look at everything
that was happening
to sort of beg
system administrators
to please report
whatever they saw
that they even thought
was suspicious
that could be coming from us.
And my fear is
they'll just send somebody
to do something horrible
and then sort of
point the finger at all of us
and say,
see, they're evil hackers.
But that didn't happen in the past.
That did not happen in the past.
No, but they,
I think,
sort of my general feeling
is they're sort of tired
of looking at us
really, really closely
to see if we maybe commit crimes.
So either they should,
by now,
have accepted the fact
that we don't commit any,
that we're just there
to learn from each other
and that the word hacker
just means so much more
and that this is not,
in fact,
about causing World War III,
but that this is about sharing
and it's about
some political issues,
that it's about
whether or not
the content industry
owns it all.
It's about
European software patents.
It's about all these things.
And either they should have
gotten that by now
or they're just
out to get us.
And I'm not much
of a conspiracy theorist.
I don't really want to believe
that my government's
out to get me.
It's just that
it becomes harder and harder
to see what the objective
could be otherwise.
Well, do you think it's limited
to just your government?
I think this thing
is mostly limited
to my government, yeah.
The opposition to this
particular conference
is some people
in Dutch government
being either scared or...
You could think of
all sorts of things.
You could think of people
just not wanting
to have to go here
with a bunch of cyber cops
at the end of July
because they want to be
on a campsite in France.
It doesn't have to be
a complicated conspiracy.
But it's abuse of power,
that's for sure.
So, now,
what do you say to the people
that want to go to this thing,
people who have already
bought tickets,
people who are considering
buying tickets?
Oh, we've had massive
tons of support
and it's going to happen.
We've pretty much
resolved our issue
with the Boxel Local Council.
Boxel, over the past
week and a half,
has been answering
media calls from
all over the world,
literally,
from the New York Times
to all the Dutch
national newspapers.
They were on the radio.
They were everywhere.
And they want out.
They want this thing to happen.
As they say on their own website,
they have additional
information now
and they're looking at
our application favorably.
And it is my impression
that they're doing
everything now to help us
to get this permit
really quickly.
Okay, so that's good.
We've received lots of support.
Members of Parliament
have written.
Writers, journalists,
professors,
people from all walks of life.
I only spoke briefly,
but I spoke to
a general practitioner,
a doctor from Denmark,
who on the very first day
that we put out
a press release
had been on the phone
with the mayor of Boxel
for over an hour.
How does a doctor in Denmark
call the mayor
of a town in the Netherlands?
That was my question exactly,
but apparently
this doctor in Denmark
that I don't know
had spent an hour
on the phone
with the mayor of Boxel
telling him that
he was indeed also
going to this conference.
This is the hacking GP.
He was also going
to this conference
and that he was in no way
an evil hacker
and sort of describing
what he,
sort of his whole background
and educating the mayor
as to what kind of people we are.
And I think that's all been helpful.
I think the Boxel municipality
has gotten the message.
That's amazing.
I do want to meet this doctor
from Denmark
that was able to have
this long conversation
with the mayor.
Things like that
are pretty unheard of here
where you can actually
reach a government official
and talk to them
and engage them in conversation
for a lengthy period of time.
But I agree.
I think it's going to take place.
I think it's going to be
a great success.
It's just a shame
that we always have to have
these hassles
from some uninformed people
that think it's just going to be
a complete madness and mayhem.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree.
We have the same thing
here in the States of course
when we do the HOPE conferences
but they always happen.
You know, we always...
You don't know what goes on
behind the scenes
but a lot does.
And in the end
we always figure out
a way to make it happen.
Okay, Rob,
I have to apologize now
because what we have to do
is beg for money on the air.
And unfortunately
that's a necessary part
of our survival.
And that's what keeps
this radio station alive.
So let me quickly tell people
what we have available.
And again,
this is only available
for this airtime period
between 7 and 8 p.m.
here in New York City.
So after 8 o'clock
you will not be able
to get these premiums.
All right?
You'll still be able
to pledge to the radio station
but for different things.
Yes, Jim?
It's available outside
of New York City though.
Wait a minute.
It's available outside.
You said it's available
only between 7 and 8
in New York City.
No, I was referring
to the time in New York City.
It's available there
as long as you call us
within the next 40 minutes
I'd say.
212-209-2950.
Let me tell you
what we have.
Will we pay the shipping
to Pluto?
Well, yeah,
if you calculate it.
Sure, why not?
All right.
We have a bunch
of different things.
First of all,
everybody who pledges
$25 or above gets
what, Mike?
They get an
off-the-hook T-shirt.
That's right.
None of you are wearing
an off-the-hook T-shirt.
I'm surprised.
I'm stunned.
I'm shocked.
Maybe on the phone,
Bernie,
are you wearing one?
I'm not wearing
one tonight,
but I wore one last week.
You know,
you could have lied
so easily
and told me
you were wearing one.
I wore one
to a radio transmitter
reconstruction project
this weekend.
People were familiar
with the show.
Okay, well,
that's the kind of thing
that happens.
If you wear the shirt,
people come up to you
and talk to you
and say,
why?
What is that?
And you can have
conversations like that, too.
212-209-2950.
That's for every
pledge of $25 or above,
but it gets better.
It gets much better.
For a pledge of $75,
you'll get the
off-the-hook DVD.
Now, what that is,
that's a special DVD
that has every single radio show
that we've done
between the years 1988
and the end of 2004,
last year.
They're in MP3 format,
and, yes,
they are all available
on the web,
but it would take you
the better part of a lifetime
to download them all.
Well, maybe not,
but a long time.
It's a real pain to do that.
It's a real pain
to download them all.
It's a real pain
to download them all.
It's a real pain
to download them all.
It's a real pain
to do that.
Here, we have them all
on one disc,
on one DVD,
and you can listen
to any show you want
in that period of time.
That's for a pledge
of $75,
and you also get the shirt.
You also get the shirt
with that.
You could remix the shows
into something
even more exciting
if you want.
Yeah,
that's called fair use.
I think so,
while wearing the shirt.
Yeah,
you could go crazy
with that.
Oh, hey,
even more.
If you want to pledge
$100,
you have a choice.
There's two things
you can get
for a $100 pledge.
You can get a copy
of the Freedom Downtime DVD,
and it's autographed,
a special autographed copy
of this.
We were selling these
at Dayton,
and they were very,
very popular,
extremely popular.
You will get
a Freedom Downtime DVD
signed by myself
and Kevin Mitnick
along with the
off-the-hook T-shirt.
That's for a pledge
of $100,
Freedom Downtime,
of course,
being the documentary
that we made
a couple of years ago
concerning the whole
Kevin Mitnick story,
the hacker world,
traveling across the country,
all kinds of fun
things like that.
Also,
for $100,
you have this choice.
You can get
the new Kevin Mitnick book,
which is
The Art of Intrusion.
In fact,
I have a couple of words
about The Art of Intrusion
from a local newspaper
in just a moment.
That book
will be signed
by Kevin Mitnick.
That's for a pledge
of $100,
and again,
you get the 2600 T-shirt
on top,
not 2600,
the off-the-hook T-shirt
on top of that.
Now,
if you want everything,
you want the DVD,
you want the book,
you want the
off-the-hook DVD as well,
off-the-hook freedom,
downtime,
Art of Deception,
I'm sorry,
Art of Intrusion,
and the off-the-hook T-shirt,
for a pledge of $150,
you can get it all.
All right?
212-209-2950.
That is our phone number,
and we have
a roomful of volunteers
down in the tally room,
people who have
sacrificed their
Wednesday evening
to be down here
to take phone calls
to keep this radio station going,
and we've donated
$100,
and again,
you can get
And we've donated
all this material
to the radio station
so that
we can help
incite you to call.
I see one caller
on the line,
and that's good,
but we know that
there are a lot more of you
than,
a lot more of you
out there
than just one person.
212-209-2950.
Two quick things.
First of all,
not only do you get
the premiums
when you pledge,
but you also
have the satisfaction
of helping support
esoteric thoughts,
ideas,
and facts
that are presented
on this show
off the hook,
and have been
for the last 15
some odd years.
And secondly,
in with those premiums,
there's a hidden
virtual premium
when you get the DVD.
You can enter
the DVD Easter egg contest.
That's right,
the Freedom Downtime
DVD Easter egg contest,
which I believe
has a deadline
of September 1st
for all entries
to be submitted.
We have so many Easter eggs
on this thing
that I think
we've lost track
of them ourselves,
and we're going to have
to figure out
where they all are.
You're guaranteed
to find at least one.
There's no question
about that.
And there are many
on there.
There's a double DVD set.
We have all kinds
of fun things going on.
The rules to the contest
are on the website
and in the magazine.
And the prize
is something
really wondrous,
I think.
It's like
a lot of stuff.
I forget what the prize is,
but it's really,
really cool.
212-209-2950.
Again,
for a pledge
of 100 bucks,
you'll get that
Freedom Downtime DVD
signed by
Kevin Mitnick
and myself
for a pledge
of $150,
you'll get that
plus everything else
we're offering tonight.
The Art of Intrusion,
the Off the Hook T-shirt,
and the Off the Hook
DVD collection.
Two calls on the line.
212-209-2950.
Up to 25 bucks.
We need to
raise that substantially
in the next hour or so.
And again,
this is the last time
we'll be doing this
during the fundraiser.
And only about
35 minutes left.
212-209-2950.
Now,
there was a story
in the
Newark Star Ledger,
Newark being over there
in New Jersey,
all about
spoofing
caller ID.
It was a pretty
interesting story,
actually.
It was a
page one story.
When a hoax
led sharpshooting
SWAT teams
to shut down
a new Brunswick
neighborhood last month,
the world learned
about a dangerous
new game called
Bombing.
Yeah,
prank phone calls.
Wait, wait.
What is this new game?
It's been going on
for a long time.
In this context,
I think it might be.
Prank phone calls
once a
summer pastime.
Actually,
I'd make
prank phone calls
in the winter.
I did.
They have morphed
into a blood sport.
Details are still unfolding
on how the
New Brunswick
emergency call
and others like it
were faked.
Experts on privacy
and security
warn that internet
technology and legal
handling hoaxters
a powerful
weapon to dupe
everyone.
Caller ID
spoofing.
Now,
Kevin Mitnick,
the co-author
of The Art of Intrusion
and a reformed
hacker himself,
says you can't
trust caller ID.
There is no
assurance that it
is coming from
the entity that's
displayed on
the device.
In fact,
this was demonstrated
at one of our
conferences back
in 2002,
H2K2.
We demonstrated
how caller ID
can be faked.
There's companies
that do it now.
Now,
Kevin basically
in this interview
demonstrated it
by calling a
reporter's cell phone
and making it seem
as if he was calling
from the reporter's
office.
And the reporter
freaked out
and ran away.
Came back later
and finished the article,
but the point was made.
Now,
spoofing 911 calls
over conventional
phone networks
is much harder,
they say.
They deploy
an embedded
billing technology
called SS7,
which automatically
calls with the
physical address
of the telephone.
Not always,
but we won't
get into that
right now.
Oh,
look at all the calls.
About four calls
on the line.
212-209-2950,
please help bring
some support
to this radio station
and get some
really nifty things
as well.
So, yeah,
Kevin has been
talking quite a bit
about this
over the last
couple of years.
In fact,
we demonstrated
that at the
Fifth Hope
last year,
it allowed us
to enter a phone
number that we
wanted to call from,
and we called
somebody else's
phone number,
and sure enough,
that's the number
we were calling from.
So there are
companies now
that offer this.
There are all
kinds of different
companies.
Are you surprised?
No.
Should I be?
I don't know.
You know,
there's,
I'm trying to find
the list of companies
here.
They basically,
okay,
SpoofTel.
SpoofTel is one of them.
Star 38 is another.
Now, Star 38 is interesting
because that's only
offered to police.
Yeah,
the police
are supposed to
use Star 38
to help the good guys
hunt the bad guys.
Does it say that
in the article?
That's what Star 38 says.
Okay,
we call up SpoofTel,
and we have them
call Star 38 for us,
and give the phone
number of the NYPD.
Is it going to work?
I don't know.
I don't know what
the phone number
of the NYPD is,
actually.
I don't know
what the phone
number
of the NYPD
is,
actually.
But,
yeah,
a lot of these
companies are
popping up,
and it's really
kind of strange
and bizarre
to see this happening.
SpoofTel was born
in Vancouver
two months ago
when a computer
security specialist
named Ryan Perita
got bored.
There was no
hockey season on TV,
and he was looking
for something to do.
He thought the Star 38
service sounded cool,
but was miffed
it only served cops,
so he cooked up SpoofTel
and says it now
has about 800 active users
who use it between
5,000 and 5,000 minutes
a day at a dime
per minute.
Canadian.
He promises to deal
swiftly with any
reported abuses,
but defends
caller ID spoofing.
We're offering a service.
If someone is using it
illegitimately,
what can we do?
That's the internet.
They still sell crowbars,
don't they?
They can be used
for many different things.
I don't see anybody
being stopped
from selling guns.
I would guess more people
are killed by guns
than from spoofing
caller ID.
You know,
he's probably right about that.
I would imagine so.
I've heard this analogy before,
but, yeah,
it's pretty interesting.
Now, this is all feasible
because of free software
called Asterisk.
It turns a PC
with a fast internet connection
into a full-fledged
telephone system
with features
that once cost
thousands of dollars.
The barrier to entry
became very low,
they said.
And Asterisk was hatched
in 1999
by Mark Spencer,
an Auburn University
computer engineering student
who was also bored
with no sports on TV.
He also ran
a tech support business
for a number of years
in the United States.
Now, Asterisk is a
free software
and a tech support business
for people using
the free open source
Linux computer
operating system.
I needed a phone system,
I couldn't afford
to buy one,
so I decided to make one,
recounts Spencer.
And, well,
the rest is history.
But, yeah,
you see sort of
how these things develop.
People just write
their own software,
develop technology,
and before you know it,
you know,
the powers that be
don't know what to do.
That's what it's all about.
Yeah, I mean,
as they touched on
in the article,
you used to,
in order to do this,
you needed
to control a PBX,
which was something
that not that many people did.
Mm-hmm.
But now,
with this free software,
you know,
IP telephony,
you can set this up
literally for free
and make calls
for pennies
with your choice
of caller ID,
and it's getting
very, very easy.
212-209-2950.
Keep those calls coming in.
We have lots
of pledge levels.
If you find this conversation
interesting,
then I think you'll find
everything that we're offering
tonight interesting.
Yeah.
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Thanks.
Yeah.
Well, I think we demonstrated it at the H2K2 Conference to
show how well the caller ID spoofing works.
We were able to project it on a big video screen,
and it basically overlays the caller ID digits over any video
source.
You know, your TV set, you can run it in series with your
cable box or your T Vo, your DVD player, or whatever.
And when the call comes in over your phone line,
a little pop-up window at the bottom of the screen comes up
the caller ID, name, and number, which is kind of neat.
Although it could be annoying.
I imagine it would be very annoying after a while, especially if you get a lot of phone
calls.
Well, you can always turn it off.
You can always turn off your TV for that matter.
Yeah, that's true, too.
Definitely true.
We did a lot of that in Dayton.
Yeah, in fact, do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Again, one more time, the phone number, 212-209-2950.
We have one call on the line.
Let's make that five.
Go ahead, Bernie.
Oh, as far as turning off TVs, yeah, a bunch of us there came into the possession of a
small electronic devices which will shut off TV sets in their vicinity.
We found giant video screens in movie theaters that mysteriously were shutting off and store
windows and all kinds of places.
Wherever there was a TV screen, they were just mysteriously just shutting down.
I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, but these TV-begone devices are pretty neat.
We've all played with them now since you had a bunch of them in Dayton and we were walking
around the streets.
Yeah, they are fun, but I got to tell you, after walking around the streets of New York
with one of these things, it's also very frustrating because there's so much you want to do and
I just wish they were more powerful.
I was in one of those big mega stores yesterday or actually two days ago and I was trying
to get all their TV sets.
I really was, but it took a very long time.
I was able to get maybe two at once and I had to wait for it to recycle, get two more.
I had to be fairly close to the sets.
This thing would be so great if it was more powerful like your standard TV remote that
has AAA batteries, which means it would have to be bigger.
The other thing that I find annoying is that you don't know what stage it's in in the whole
cycling phase.
Every time you hit this thing, it cycles through all of the possible codes.
That means that it's going to eventually hit the vast majority of TV sets, but let's
say you hit it and you're not sure if you're at the right angle and you want to reposition
yourself and hit it again, you're not sure if 60 seconds have passed or 50 seconds or
however long it takes and there's no way to really tell.
I've spent a lot of time just standing somewhere waiting for something to happen and eventually
it happens usually, but other times you're frustrated because you want it to be better.
I have noticed that too.
On the way back from Dayton, Walter was kind enough to drive Redbird and myself back.
We were discussing a way to increase the infrared output of one of these devices with an array
of high brightness infrared LEDs, like maybe 20 or 30 LEDs, which would be sort of like
an infrared flamethrower from the standpoint of infrared.
I think we're going to work on that.
I already have a whole bunch of high output infrared LEDs and we're going to experiment
with that and see how many hundreds of feet we can work this from.
Yeah, now you're talking because that's the kind of thing that ... I had fun walking up
to one of those display windows that have big screen TVs that they leave on all night
long and that's easy.
You walk right up to it and you stand there for a second and you turn the thing off and
you walk up to the next one.
That's great, but if you like ...
You're saving energy.
Yeah, you're saving energy and light pollution and all that kind of thing.
Let's say you're in a bar and the TV's annoying you.
You kind of have to get fairly close and noticeable.
It's risky to your health, among other things.
But yeah, it's a great idea.
We're working on it.
Not only does it turn them off in closed storefront windows, but it also turns them on, which
can probably freak out the people once they open the store again.
Yeah, Rob, do you have anything like this in your country?
I know lots of people that have gotten this TV-B-Gone device, which I think is what you're
talking about.
Yes.
But we were thinking about something similar years and years ago with sort of a hat with
lots of very bright infrared LEDs, just like what Bernie was cooking up, and put it all
in a hat so they were shining in all directions and transmitting off all the time.
You could also build it in the shape of a gun so you could actually shoot the TV to
turn it off.
Yeah, that would be very popular here in New York.
We have no end of conversation about that, I'm sure.
The MTA has a solution for this that they put on every single LED screen that they have
in the subway.
Black tape.
Which is duct tape.
Yeah.
Oh, this is duct tape.
Yeah.
And that's what you have to do.
But I imagine, how are people going to deal with this?
I mean, yeah, we're playing with this technology.
We're figuring out ways of turning things off because they're annoying, and they really
are annoying and intrusive in many situations.
But how are people going to respond to this?
How do you make the technology so that somebody can't just come in and turn off your TV set
whenever they feel like it?
No ideas?
Duct tape works very well.
Yeah, but then you can't do it yourself.
You put a little individual code on each remote.
A pin code that you have to program the first time you introduce a remote to your TV set,
a universal remote.
You have to enter a four-digit pin code or something like that, and then that remote
is allowed to turn off and on your TV set.
Well, even more interestingly, that code is transmitted to the TV, and it's transmitted
with every command.
So in other words, every code would have, let's say, for argument's sake, 1, 2, 3, 4,
and then off, which would be whatever other digit it is for off.
A different digit for louder, a different digit for softer, a different digit for channel
up, channel down.
But it would be unique for every remote.
Right.
But keep in mind that people don't even program their VCR clocks.
But some people do.
That's the point.
Some people would do this to the remote.
Those that don't do it to the remote, you can turn it off with TV on.
Those that do do it, they're protected.
You're real fancy with the challenge-response system.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's evolution.
That's what it's all about.
All right.
Again.
Fingerprint recognition on the remote.
Fingerprint recognition.
There you go.
The fingerprints.
You know, we were given fingerprints for a reason, and that's for verification so the
government knows where you are.
No.
No, no.
We weren't given fingerprints.
Why?
We weren't given fingerprints for libraries.
Well, the government runs the libraries, right?
In Naperville, Illinois, they're installing fingerprint scanners on 130 library computers
this summer to prevent unauthorized users.
The library.
Wait, wait, wait.
What do you mean, unauthorized users?
What is an unauthorized user in a library?
That's what I couldn't figure out, you know.
But anyway, the spokesman for the library named Mark West said, a fingerprint is just
a barcode, but it's built in.
You know, he may be, you know, on acid saying that, but he does have a point because it's
unique for every person.
I said this at H, what was it, H2K, you know, it's the mark of the beast on the right hand.
It's the sign of the apocalypse.
You know, I did that tongue-in-cheek, totally tongue-in-cheek.
I'm starting to believe it when you get idiots from the Naperville, Illinois library saying
it for real.
Usually librarians are pretty open-minded, but this one is not.
I couldn't believe it when I read it.
I still can't believe it.
All right.
Well, I can't believe there's no calls on the line, actually there's one, but we need
more.
212-209-2950.
We have 480 bucks.
I hope they haven't added up all the numbers yet because we really should be breaking 1,000
in this hour.
212-209-2950.
We're offering a lot of interesting things and they won't be available after 8 o'clock.
In the next 14 minutes, they will be gone.
We won't be on again with another fundraiser for the foreseeable future.
Now, Mike, you have some names of people to thank.
Yes.
The names belong to people who we want to thank.
People are our best contributors.
Yes.
These folks are James, who is in Springville, Indiana, Mark, who is in Rahway, New Jersey,
Kevin, who is in Monroe Township, also in New Jersey.
We always get a strong New Jersey response.
Some New York people.
Yes.
To the east.
Long Island.
Where are you guys?
Connecticut.
We know you're out there.
We have Anthony from North Augusta in South Carolina.
Okay.
That's down there.
Yes.
We have Jeffrey from Kirkland, Washington.
That's way out there.
Indeed.
We have Gregory from Scotch Plains, New Jersey.
Again, New Jersey.
New Jersey.
There's nothing wrong with New Jersey.
Nothing wrong with New Jersey.
Well, I wouldn't go that far.
There's Brad from Madison Heights, Michigan, and Earl from Vernon, Connecticut.
Am I right in hearing you that there's not a single New York contributor there?
I think so.
I think you're right.
There's no one in that list from New York.
There's something wrong here.
Something seriously wrong.
Nobody from New York has called in to support this radio show.
Not that we don't love our New Jersey listeners, but we would have to change focus of the show
to appeal to a more New Jersey-
I mean, should we just turn the transmitter and point it west?
Maybe that's what we have to do.
212-209-2950.
Come on, New Yorkers.
Your honor has been challenged here.
We need to hear from more people.
And New England, too.
We've got a Connecticut person.
That's great.
Okay.
And we're getting people from South Carolina and Washington.
Nobody from out of the country yet, though.
No.
Unless they're being anonymous.
There's always all these anonymous people.
That's true.
There are anonymous people that don't like their names being read.
But again, you have 12 minutes to call us, 212-209-2950.
Off the Hook has been on the air since 1988 in one form or another.
And we've tried to cover technology, developing technology in all sorts of interesting ways.
And throughout the years, I've been spending a lot of time listening to the old radio programs,
neatening them up, archiving them, that kind of thing.
And just the history that we have covered over the years, just the way things sound
differently, just the way people are, the events that we've been a part of, the governments
that have changed, the world events that have happened.
It's a fascinating time capsule.
And this radio station has made all that possible.
Rob, I've heard your voice a number of times on radio shows dating back to the 80s.
And we're always talking about something interesting, something that's changing in the world.
And it's just it's really cool to be able to sort of check in and hear that.
Yeah, there's been some interesting stuff, some interesting events.
And of course, Bernie, we heard your whole story back in the mid 90s when you were incarcerated
and going through hell.
That certainly made for some riveting listening as well.
I felt like I was riveted to the floor, actually.
I think that was one of the suggestions that they were imposing sentence on you.
So yeah, you know, that's that's part of the whole off the hook package.
Every single show from 1988 to 2004, pledge of $75, 202-209-2950.
But more importantly, your call keeps the radio station on the air and keeps this radio
show possible for the foreseeable future until they come for us, which will probably
be one of these days when we when we cross over the line and say something we're not
supposed to say or talk about technology that they don't want us to know about.
Well, they've already come for us, haven't they?
Yeah, but they couldn't find us.
Well, they've come for us many times and they end up going away, actually, don't they?
Yeah, they do.
They do.
Because we have a lot of friends.
We have people out there.
We have our listeners.
We have our readers.
Who just know what is right and what is wrong.
And those are the people we're here for.
So if you have not already called up, please do so now, because strength is in numbers.
And that's the only reason this place exists is because of listeners.
Now, we don't have commercials in this radio station, and it's annoying, I know, to hear
people begging for money, and it's really annoying to be begging for money.
But it's essential.
If we didn't do it, we'd be off the air and the station would be another Clear Channel
station.
And let me just say something about Clear Channel.
There's a story that came out very recently about Radio Free Ohio.
Now, everybody thought Radio Free Ohio was a pirate radio station.
For weeks, it sounded as if amateurs had been bleeding their voices into the broadcast of
stations in Akron, Ohio, owned by Clear Channel, the corporate radio giant.
At the website, www.radiofreeohio.com, there was a manifesto about corporate-controlled
music playlists that took potshots at several local Clear Channel stations, but there was
no information about who had posted the screed or what exactly Radio Free Ohio was.
Last week, it came out that Radio Free Ohio was not a prank on Clear Channel, but in fact,
a prank by Clear Channel.
Yeah.
So, at AM station, the company owns in Akron is switching formats from sports talk to quote
unquote progressive talk, and Clear Channel would very much like anyone suspicious of
corporate media to tune in.
Now, I mean, you know, where else but in the United States can you have corporate radio
operating a station that's anti-corporate radio?
It's a mirror image of the elections that we have in this country.
I think you're giving them a little bit too much credit.
You're saying it's a station that is actually anti-corporate radio.
It's a station that purports to be anti-corporate radio, which is a key difference.
Well, they say Clear Channel is dedicated to entertaining radio and to getting results
for our advertisers.
There's a hole in the market here, and we're going to fill it.
Everything to them is a market.
Well, that's the key is the advertising, and we don't have that, so we can say what we
want without having to worry about anything.
Yeah.
When we say Clear Channel sucks, we mean it.
You know, we really do because we're not trying to sell you something.
We're expressing an opinion, and we have phone lines so our listeners can express opinions
as well, and that's something you don't really have in Clear Channel land.
You have commercials.
You have marketing.
You have all kinds of fakeness and lying, but, you know, an opinion might get out occasionally,
but the only reason the opinion gets out is so they can sell a product and get attention.
It will shock somebody.
Here we talk about issues.
Here we learn.
Here we teach, and if you want to be a part of that, we really do need your help.
212-209-2950.
We have five calls on the line.
Make that six.
We have a whole lot of people down there that are ready to answer your phone call.
Again, pledge of $25 gets you a shirt.
Pledge of $150 gets you everything, and there's all kinds of levels in between.
I just want to go briefly to a story that we've talked about before on the show, which
had some interesting developments.
We've talked about this company called Covance, which I guess tests drugs for safety, and
in so doing, they seem to manage to abuse a lot of animals, breaking the law in the
countries in which they operate generally, and just being kind of not nice to the animals.
We talked about some evidence that they did this in Germany, and now, to no one's surprise,
an investigation in the United States has found they're doing the same thing here.
This group called covancecruelty.com is their website, has put this video footage of this
animal abuse in Vienna, Virginia on its website, and this is all a bunch of Americans.
Covance, as we've mentioned before, is headquartered in Princeton, New Jersey, and for some reason,
they're suing this time in the UK courts.
They're always suing overseas.
They're always suing overseas, so in the UK courts, they're trying to get this video out
of the UK, but you can still see it in the US, and you know, we kind of joke why they
do this, but their own lawyers in court say that independent advice had been given from
the US council to the British council that placed a question mark over whether injunctive
relief could be achieved in the US.
He described it as debatable under US law as to whether an employer could obtain an
injunction acting in this way because of a concern that such relief would infringe the
First Amendment of the US Constitution.
So here we have the lawyers for Covance saying in court in the UK that this sort of thing
is quite probably legal in the US, and so I would encourage US residents and other people
who, you know, might want to go there to check out this footage at-
But did they mean for us to see that comment, or was that only for the British people?
I don't know.
Wow.
It's pretty telling right there.
They usually, they don't say that.
So you know, we do have the First Amendment, we should take advantage of the First Amendment
and express views, that's what it's all about, because you can see how they really want you
not to, and they will go to any length they can, and fortunately they don't have that
ability here, but they would if they could.
The original website for the footage is covancecruelty.com, and if you are not in the UK and would like
to make a copy of this footage, you can come to my website, which is mlcastle.net slash
covance.
How do you spell covance?
C-O-V-A-N-C-E, and there will be a copy, but please don't look at it if you're in the UK.
Now, Raph, have you heard about this over in Holland?
No, I haven't.
It sounds like an interesting story, though.
Yeah.
And it's another thing that we would have never been able to mention if we had advertisers,
because there are tons of people that are testing these products, and certainly we would
have had an advertiser if we were Clear Channel or any other company that would be testing
products.
Oh, they'd be mad.
They would be very mad.
Yeah, because we're criticizing what they do, their very reason for being.
Bernie, you had something?
Is this the one with the pigs?
I think they have everything.
They have all kinds of animals.
I know they have monkeys.
I don't want to say what else they do and don't have, because I'm not quite sure.
Yeah, we talked about this last year.
We wouldn't want to upset our sponsor, Jimmy Dean Sausages.
Well, that's more than experimentation on animals.
All right.
212-209-2950 is our phone number.
If you support anything that you've heard, any of the ideas that we've been expressing,
we're pretty much out of time now.
Now, we want to thank these people.
Sure.
We want to thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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