Of course, this whole program is dedicated to the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King, you
know that.
There's something strangely inconsistent about a nation and a press that will praise you
when you say be non-violent toward Jim Clark, but will curse and damn you when you say be
non-violent toward little brown Vietnamese children.
On Sunday, April 4th, 2004, the Black Radical Congress, the Riverside Church Mission, and
WBAI welcome you to celebrate the legacy of Dr. King with Reverend Dr. James A. Forbes
Jr., Historian Dr. Manning Marable, Uptown Youth for Peace and Justice, Nuyorican Poet
of the Year Khalil, and keynote speaker, Congresswoman Barbara Lee.
That's Sunday, April 4th, 2004, 7 p.m. at the Riverside Church, 120th Street at Riverside
Drive, free to the public.
For information, call 646-437-5354.
That's 646-437-5354.
And at 7 o'clock, you're listening to WBAI in New York, and that sound means it's time
for Off the Hook.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is Off the Hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you this fine evening along with friends, and Bernie down
there in Philadelphia.
How's it going?
Bernie, are you with us?
Uh-oh.
Have we lost Bernie again?
That's amazing.
Hang on.
Let's make sure the phones are working tonight.
Oh, the phone's working.
The phones are working.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm not quite sure what happened to Bernie.
Oh, I'm here.
The music was so loud, I couldn't hear you.
The music was so loud.
Okay.
Well, I don't have any music at all.
And you have it louder to me than you did to the board, to the rest of the board.
I can't understand this place because we're not playing any music at all right now, and
yet you...
No, not now.
But before, I could just...
I could barely hear your voice.
I could barely hear your voice.
Really?
Okay.
All right.
Well, hopefully, that situation has been fixed right now.
You can't blame Sprint for that.
No.
Oh, look at that.
Music is back.
Oh, this time, it's overwhelming us.
All right.
Stop it, music.
All right.
Bernie...
Bernie, actually, and Mike, too, you both have horror stories involving Sprint PCS.
And I've got...
I've got one myself.
All right.
But I'd like to have you guys...
But you got rid of them.
Got rid of who?
Sprint?
Yeah.
Sprint.
Well, that doesn't mean...
Sprint.
Sprint.
Sprint.
Sprint.
Sprint.
No, it's not that easy.
It really isn't.
There's plenty of misery to be had, even if you've never had Sprint PCS as a company.
But tell us what happened.
Whoever wants to start first, and then we'll maybe solicit more stories and go through
some of the listener mail we've gotten as well.
I guess I'll start.
I got a call the other day at 128 in the afternoon from a courtesy call.
Courtesy call.
I was told...
Courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
From a courtesy call.
I got a call the other day at 128 in the afternoon from a courtesy call.
Courtesy call.
I was told from Sprint PCS wanting to know how my service was.
And any time I would happen to tell them that it sucked, they would offer me some product
or service that would make my life better.
Such as switching to another phone company.
But they didn't offer me that.
They did offer me multiple phones.
This was a human being that called you or a computer?
A human being called me.
Okay.
Courtesy call.
Yeah, a courtesy call.
The interesting thing is I was told that this would not use up any of my minutes.
Really?
They told you that?
They told me that.
What showed up on your caller ID?
On the caller ID, I got a toll-free number.
Oh, wait, wait.
Hold on.
We're going to call this number.
Okay.
Go ahead.
877.
1-877.
Yeah?
858.
8-5-8?
7590.
7590.
And what happens when you call this number?
Well, we'll find out.
Okay.
What's the name of the person who called you?
You didn't get the name of the person?
For quality and training purposes, your call may be monitored and recorded.
It doesn't even say who they are.
If you are calling this toll-free number from your PCS handset, you will not be charged
air time.
Thank you for calling the loyalty group.
Loyalty group?
All of our representatives are currently- The loyalty group?
Thank you for choosing Sprint PCS.
The Loyalty Group?
Thank you for choosing Sprint PCS. My name is Santiago. May I help you?
Can you just tell me what this Loyalty Group is?
I'm sorry?
They said thank you for calling the Loyalty Group.
Right.
Are you the Loyalty Group?
Yes, sir.
Is that part of Sprint?
Yes, sir.
It is. Can you tell me what Loyalty Group is?
Basically, it just rewards loyal customers with promotions, updating accounts, stuff like that.
But you have to be loyal.
You have to be loyal. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Well, thanks anyway, then.
You're welcome.
What's the definition of loyal?
Well, I think we have to look that up. He's gone, though.
I just couldn't carry that on in good faith because I know I'm not loyal and I'm not even a customer.
And you guys certainly aren't loyal.
Anyway, Mike, continue with your story. What happened next?
Well, they kept trying to sell me more phones and tell me that my phone is a year and a half old and therefore it must be replaced immediately.
And if I wanted to complain about the quality of service, I couldn't do that over the phone.
Instead, I could go to a website and suggest locations where they build new cell sites.
As if that was the problem.
Right. All of Manhattan needs cell service.
I think they can figure that out without me telling them.
So that's the Loyalty Group they called you, basically.
Yeah, they did tell me that.
To see if you were loyal.
Well, they don't say that, I guess, when they call you.
They're testing your loyalty.
They must have assumed I was loyal just to call me.
No, I think they were testing the waters and I think you failed the test.
Okay, good.
Now, Bernie, what happened to you?
Well, I got a call, too, a few weeks ago.
And the first thing they said, and I said no ID, by the way.
I didn't have the caller ID information.
Oh, really?
No, no ID.
That's a violation, isn't it?
Well, it depends on what you mean by telemarketing.
Oh, that's right. You have a pre-existing relationship with them.
That's right.
Great.
And I answered the phone and they said, this is a courtesy call from SprintTCS.
Sound familiar?
But this time the rep, and I think I might have mentioned this on the air a few weeks ago,
and this happened, the rep very aggressively tried to get my credit card information
and tried to convince me to renew my contract.
And the reason he wanted my credit card information, he said, is because I needed to pay my bill.
But my bill was only three days into the cycle.
In other words, it was still like 27 days from being actually due.
Oh, my God.
So they're asking for money almost a month in advance.
And they wanted my credit card so they could get this money.
And I said, I always pay my bill with cash.
And as you can see from my account status, there's never been a problem.
But they persisted and wanted to get this credit card information,
like this guy was getting a commission or something.
They wouldn't take no for an answer.
So pretty much, well, I didn't say yes.
And I got his employee ID number.
They won't give you their name anymore because once they said,
when I asked for an employee's name and location, once they said,
well, we can't tell you that because an irate customer could come in
and do something bad to this great employee.
So it's not a good sign.
Well, they acknowledge they have irate customers.
When they fear that level of customer dissatisfaction.
But anyway, I hung up and I called back and asked for a supervisor and explained the situation.
Who did you call back? Just the main Sprint number?
I called the main Sprint number, but I just asked to speak to a supervisor right away.
And they were reluctant, but they let me speak with one.
And I explained, you know, I asked, why did I get this call when the money isn't even due for another 27 days?
And she said, it was just a courtesy call.
And I said, well, did they get a commission for this?
Because the guy was so aggressively trying to get my credit card number and get this money.
That it had to have been a commission-based thing.
And she said, no, they don't get a commission.
But when I asked the first person who called, they said they do get a commission.
So one of them was lying.
And I said, doesn't this violate some sort of telemarketing thing?
Because he was trying to sell me other services as well.
The supervisor was trying to sell you?
No, no, no. The first person was trying to sell me on another plan as well.
Because I've got this really old plan that's like six years old.
As my phone is as well.
And I like my phone.
Anyway, she said it was because I had a pre-existing business relationship with Sprint PCS.
And therefore, it was a courtesy call.
And they didn't need to identify their number when they called.
And they could call me any time I wanted.
And I said, well, how can I stop receiving these calls?
And she said, well, you really can't other than not answering your Sprint PCS phone.
So, very strange.
But they haven't called back.
This was almost a month ago.
So I'm hoping...
So they're not that courteous.
No, they're not.
You have a big asterisk next to your name, too, saying trouble.
So they're not going to call you as much.
That asterisk follows me wherever I go.
Well, God forbid your bill is one day late, though.
They really fill up your voicemail.
But it wasn't even date.
It wasn't even late.
It was 27 days away from being late.
Right. Well, it's just courtesy to warn you.
That day is coming up.
Wow.
Now my question is if they can market this service of courtesy calling to other telemarketing firms.
Since the cell phone user isn't using up the minutes or paying for the call,
can, like, random telemarketers use this?
And if so, I'm disturbed.
Yeah.
Well, now they said that if you call the 877 number, that minutes wouldn't pile up.
But what if they call you?
How can they affect that?
How can they possibly affect that?
They're the phone company.
They can do whatever they want.
I guess.
But they're calling you from some location and sending out some kind of signal somehow
that as long as you keep them on the phone for half an hour
and not one of those minutes is going to count against your plan,
what kind of technology is at work there is what I'm trying to get at.
I'll examine my bill closely.
Yeah.
See if any minutes are deducted at all.
I don't believe them.
I think those minutes do count.
But we'll find out.
Well, strike up a relationship with somebody at that 877 number and long phone calls and see what happens.
There may be no technology involved.
What may happen is you may get billed for those minutes or those minutes charged against your plan,
but then they have a trigger on the bill that says, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Just give it back to them and don't print it out.
Well, it's a nightmare, as we all know.
And I've got my own nightmare, of course.
As many of you know, I switched over to Verizon from this nightmare company.
And guess what they did?
They billed me for another month.
They billed me for the next month.
Well, no, I was already on Verizon.
They billed me a month in advance.
They being Sprint.
They being Sprint, yes.
From now on, whenever I refer to somebody in a disparaging tone, they, I mean Sprint, Sprint PCS.
So I figured, you know, they'd clear this up once they realized that I was no longer their customer.
But instead, they're threatening me with collection action now because I'm not paying the bill for the period of time when I wasn't even their customer.
So it's going to be a very interesting fight ahead because I do intend not to let that happen.
But I just can't believe that they would actually try to pull that off.
And it's so clear.
You know, the day that I cut over, I went to the Verizon store.
They made it all, you know, happen and work pretty smoothly.
And I was no longer a Sprint customer by the end of that day.
And yet somehow they billed me for another month.
Was this right at the end of your billing cycle or had you already entered a new billing cycle?
It was before the end of the billing cycle.
They billed me for the next billing cycle.
Wow.
Yeah.
So I'd like to know if other people have had similar types of situations happen.
And also something else, another little phone company trick.
I have a phone line that I never use for long distance.
But AT&T is the long distance carrier because you have to assign one.
And if you don't assign one, you have to pay for not assigning one, which is a real ripoff in itself.
This month, without any kind of notice, AT&T suddenly imposed a $5 minimum.
And all of a sudden I got this bill in the mail separate from my regular phone bill from AT&T saying pay us about $8 after all the tax and tip is included.
That, you know, you have to pay a monthly fee for nothing.
And not only that, they've added a $5 minimum for nothing as well.
So you really have to keep your eyes open.
And the only way I caught this was because they sent it to me in a separate envelope.
If it had been just tacked on to my regular bill, I might not have seen it.
So I want to thank them for that.
Is that it with phone company nightmares?
Good, okay.
And of course listeners are welcome to send us theirs.
Now we have some news about Nextel from a listener.
Nextel, the cell phone provider, pride themselves on their security for business users, but they actually have very poor security.
You only need to know a Nextel customer's phone number to reset their voicemail password to their 7-digit telephone number without area code.
Apparently that's the default password.
At which point you can log into their voicemail and change the password to whatever you want and check their messages.
You can even do this through their automated phone menus.
You can also call their customer care group and identify yourself as a dealer to acquire virtually any information on an account or Nextel systems.
Nextel's policy is to not require any information from an individual who calls representing themselves as a dealer.
Nextel dealer, that is.
You can also acquire technical information by representing yourself as tier 1 technical support.
Tier 1 technical support.
The name of the customer database system is Ensemble and the intranet is called iConnect.
Of course, using this information for identity theft purposes would be a very bad idea, but the fact that it is possible is pretty disturbing.
Just thought you'd be interested, but I won't be checking this email account, so don't bother replying.
Okay, well, they didn't sign either, so we'll take that as an anonymous tip.
But I find it interesting that all you have to do is call them up apparently and tell them that you are attached to this phone number and that's all you need.
I imagine you might need their name, but I don't know.
I didn't try this myself.
There are a lot of companies where there is no security attached to the voicemail.
You can have the password reset to a default, and it's interesting also that their default password apparently is a 7-digit phone number, which is very easy to figure out.
Bernie, have you heard about this, the Motorola World Phone that's going to be launching later this year?
I heard a little bit about it, but I don't know anything about it.
Well, according to this story, they unveiled the mobile phone they say consumers will be able to use almost anywhere in the world.
They unveiled it at a wireless industry show in Atlanta.
It's the world's number two mobile phone maker, as we know, Motorola.
They plan to market it in North America in the second half of this year.
It will let consumers use their cell phones while roaming between networks that use incompatible standards.
It will work on networks run on GSM and also CDMA.
So I think that's going to be kind of interesting to see if that phone actually works overseas.
You can use your maybe Verizon phone or even Sprint phone, although I doubt that.
Sprint phone number overseas.
Sprint is CDMA, but what concerns me is once Motorola offers this phone,
I doubt very much that U.S. carriers would want to resell that phone to their customers.
You can't just buy any phone and walk into a carrier and say, hey, make this phone work on your network,
even if it's compatible with their network.
A lot of them want to have it programmed special ways and so forth.
So I don't see any incentive why Sprint PCS would want their customers to have a Motorola phone
that could be used on their network or on competing GSM networks.
I imagine there's some kind of a roaming agreement that would be in place.
I didn't see anything in here to say that you could switch phone companies in the middle
and suddenly start using a particular GSM company,
but rather that the phone would work in various places
and you'd somehow be billed by the same company throughout.
So I would imagine that's behind it all.
And Sprint PCS benefits because they can then charge you $5 a minute to call across town or something.
Yeah.
I'd like to see a cell phone that also supported the Wi-Fi voice over IP technology.
So you just find a hotspot and set up a voice over IP call from any hotspot,
which of course is usually free.
How would they bill you for that then?
They wouldn't.
They wouldn't.
But I would like to see such a phone.
Plenty of phones that are voice over IP Wi-Fi phones are available now.
I saw a bunch of them at the CBIT conference a couple weeks ago in Germany.
But Cisco is selling one now and I'm tempted just to get one and start finding hotspots.
It reminds me of the old days back when you could drive around with a cordless phone and pick up dial tones.
Well, you know, Bernie, after last week's show I looked into this a little bit
because I was very dubious about your claim that 600,000 people attended that show.
And I found out, in fact, that you did exaggerate.
It was only 510,000.
Oh, I was way off.
Don't think that you can come in here and give exaggerated numbers like that.
I'm sorry.
Relatively puny conference with 510,000 attendees.
But it must have been fun anyway.
We have more listener mail to get to.
And this is kind of interesting.
This has to do with electronic voting, which is one of our favorite topics.
And this person proposes a system.
So let's tear this system apart, shall we?
Okay, I've always read the magazine.
I've recently taken to listening to the radio show.
The past few weeks you guys discussed different implementations of computerized voting machines,
none of which you seem to have any confidence in.
I am convinced that there is a way to make a computerized voting machine
that is less prone to the problems we saw in 2000.
Basically, this is his plan here.
You have a PC with no hard disk.
It boots from a CD into some operating system, preferably not Microsoft.
It writes your vote to a CD, not CD-RW.
It prints your vote behind glass.
You see it.
It puts the printed output into a box.
So the CDs are then shipped to the election authority.
Basically, what you do is the whole process.
You walk into the booth.
Touch the screen to begin.
You pick your language.
You see a picture of the candidates.
An actual picture?
Interesting.
And you touch the one you want, and you repeat until you're finished.
The screen shows you your selections.
You press OK.
It prints.
You press OK again once you see the printout.
The paper is maybe even fed through a scanner before being cut off into a sealed box.
Your vote is written to the CD.
If it scans, then that is also written.
This PC is not networked, but it could be after the voting only for an upload.
Am I missing something?
Can this be screwed with?
Okay, Jim, go ahead.
The easy one is you're a disgruntled programmer,
and you decide that every tenth vote for Pick Your Candidate
will actually register for the other candidates.
We're talking major parties here.
You can do this with minor parties.
But it prints out the candidate that the person thinks they're...
Well, let's do it with real names to make it easy.
All right.
You are a Kerry fan.
Why?
But we'll just make it that way.
You are a Kerry fan, and you decide that every tenth vote for George W. Bush
will actually register for John whatever his initial is.
Kerry.
F. JFK II.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Boy.
Anyway.
Oliver Stone's already writing the script.
Yeah.
So you just put it in the programming.
All right?
It prints out the ballot that says you voted for Bush behind the glass,
and that goes to the garbage or whatever, the locked box.
Well, I don't think that's supposed to go to the garbage.
But if you did a recount, wouldn't you show that?
Why are they going to do a recount?
I'm saying if you did a recount, which is how you catch any kind of discrepancy.
If you do a recount.
All right.
But if word of this leaks out, eventually it will.
All right.
You don't do it every ten.
Then you have a major scandal.
You do it every 100,000.
In a populous state, that's enough to take care of your election.
Well, when you say disgruntled programmer,
do you mean a disgruntled programmer for the entire system or for just one particular district?
And would somebody have the access in order to change one particular district?
I would think that you would have somebody who would program for the whole nation as far as this goes.
You could have it so that the guy is a lifelong Democrat or Republican.
But wouldn't he have to change it with every election?
No, why?
Because Kerry isn't going to run in every election.
You don't do it for Kerry.
You don't do it for presidential candidate, Democratic Party or presidential candidate, Republican Party.
Let's just assume for argument's sake that a secure system could be come up with.
There are some folks called open voting that are working on a free software implementation.
There's no money in it.
There's no advantage over marking pieces of paper.
Elaborate on that.
That's it.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
Okay.
No advantage to marking pieces of paper.
No advantage over marking.
In other words, there is no...
Well, okay.
The thing is I imagine computers are thought to be fast and efficient.
But I've seen votes that are on paper be just as fast and just as efficient.
Anyone who's ever used a Microsoft product knows for sure that computers are not fast or efficient.
This person also asks, as far as selling your vote is concerned,
couldn't you just take a picture of your vote with your cell phone or some other little camera?
Isn't any system vulnerable to this?
Yes.
No, not really, because the polling place I go to, you simply...
It's one of the ones where you...
What do they call those?
Levers.
Levers, yeah.
They throw all the levers down.
And then you pull the big lever, and it goes ding, and the curtain opens.
You take a little video.
You take a picture of what you've pulled down,
but it doesn't mean that that's what was down when you pulled the big lever.
That's why you take a video to show it.
A video inside a polling place?
Somebody's going to notice that.
Give me a video, Cameron, and I will do it this election day.
Oh, it's almost worth it just to see what happens.
Okay, we'll talk after the show.
Leo, you have something to say.
Well, he says that it addresses the failures of the 2000 election machines.
It doesn't, because the CD writer can fail, and the printer can fail.
So that's just as worse as the little Chad's not falling off completely.
I mean, that was the only big problem in the year 2000 election,
other than the whole voter fraud accusations.
All right.
Well, we're going to continue to look into that.
Bernie, you have any thoughts on this?
Again, I agree with Mike that there's no advantage to any of these systems
over writing your ballot on a piece of paper.
Is that how you vote, writing your ballot on a piece of paper?
No.
The electronic system in Philadelphia now with LEDs behind this huge translucent panel
with such fine print that even I have trouble reading it.
So I would just prefer marking off boxes.
Okay.
In the news today, this is kind of interesting.
This came in a little before showtime.
Canada's music industry cannot force Internet service providers
to identify online music sharers.
That's according to a federal court judge up there.
The music companies represented by the Canadian Recording Industry Association, CRIA,
had identified 29 people who had traded music online using services like Kazaa,
but they knew them only by their online nicknames.
They wanted the Internet service companies such as Simpatico, Rogers, and Shaw
to give them the identities of the individuals
so they could sue them for copyright infringement.
But they didn't get it, so the music companies can't yet proceed with their lawsuits.
Justice Conrad von Finkenstein.
Boy, this is straight out of a book somewhere.
Justice Conrad von Finkenstein.
I'm not making fun of his name.
I just think it has this really dramatic flair to it.
He ruled the music companies had not provided enough evidence
that any copyright infringement had occurred
and compared downloading and uploading music to using a photocopy machine in a library.
Listen to this.
This is amazing.
Imagine a federal judge in the United States saying this.
I cannot see a real difference between a library that places a photocopy machine
in a room full of copyrighted material
and a computer user that places a personal copy on a shared directory linked to a P2P service.
No evidence was presented that the alleged infringers
either distributed or authorized the reproduction of sound recordings.
They merely placed personal copies onto shared directories on their computers
which were accessible by other computer users via an online download service.
Pretty amazing.
My first question is why the CRIA could only find 29 Kazaa users in the whole of Canada.
Maybe they're better at hiding up there.
Maybe they listen to less music.
Maybe there are less people.
I don't know.
Or maybe CRA just doesn't have the same abilities that the RIAA has.
Anyway, as a result, using an online download service for personal use
does not amount to copyright infringement in Canada, at least for now, according to CTV.
I don't know why CTV is the one giving the expert opinion on this.
They're a TV network.
That is quite different from similar rulings in the United States
where the music industry has sued 1,977 people since last fall.
It has reached out-of-court settlements in around 400 of those cases.
Some lawyers were saying the music industry might have heard its case through legal sloppiness.
Anyway, according to the president of Shaw Communications, Peter Bissonnette,
we are very, very pleased.
I'm sure our customers are as well.
We have obligations to protect the privacy of our customers.
We've always taken that approach.
So good news out of Canada.
And I guess those of you up in Canada sharing music can do so without fear for at least a little while longer.
Meanwhile, here in the States, our friend Jack Valenti is praising Senator Orrin Hatch
for sponsoring new legislation that would allow or give U.S. government new powers
to prosecute peer-to-peer file sharers.
And what is that, the Piracy Act or something?
Yes, the Pirate Act.
The Pirate Act.
It's a great acronym.
I forget what all the words are.
It restricts eyepatch wearing in public.
It's called the Pirate Act.
Do you have the whole acronym there in front of you, Emanuel?
I'm looking for it.
I saw the entire.
I have the Wired article.
It's Protecting Intellectual Rights Against Theft and Expropriation Act of 2004,
which spells out pirate.
Yarr.
They keep coming up with these amazing little acronyms here.
Well, Bernie, tell us something about this bill.
Also, I should point out, Patrick Leahy co-sponsored this.
How do people think that he's a friend of people with a clue, technology?
I don't know about that anymore.
Well, he's taken a lot of money from the people who want this legislation enacted.
And so has Orrin Hatch.
In fact, I think Orrin Hatch's second biggest campaign contributor
is the organization that's pushing this legislation.
In this article, Hatch received $152,360 from the entertainment industry
and Leahy has received $178,000.
Oof.
So, yeah, with Leahy, it's the second biggest source of donations next to lawyers.
So, boy, this is corruption all over the place here.
So tell us something about this bill.
I don't really have the text of it in front of me, but it.
Your understanding of it.
It was going in the opposite direction of Canada.
Not only can people's identities be revealed here.
Now, there are different cases here.
I think there was a Verizon case where they won not having to give up the identity.
But in other jurisdictions, the identities have been revealed of peer-to-peer file sharers by ISPs.
I think this new law would allow the U.S. government to take civil action,
not criminal action, but civil action against peer-to-peer file sharers.
And I think it said if it was more than 2,500 files or songs in most cases,
then action could be taken.
And if it was a special piece of intellectual property,
like a movie that hasn't been released yet,
you could just download it once and be liable for great big fines.
Wow.
The quote from Jack Valenti,
I commend Senators Patrick Leahy and Orrin Hatch for their vision and leadership
in combating the theft of America's creative works.
We had some interesting discussions over the weekend at the ICON conference
concerning theft of intellectual property.
And, Mike, I understand you take great exception to that particular phrase.
Intellectual property, yes.
Why is that?
First of all, it doesn't mean anything.
As Richard Stallman and others have pointed out,
there's patents and trademarks and copyright and trade secrets
and this and that and the other.
And they're all legally very different entities,
and yet they're just kind of lumped under this term intellectual property
as though they're one and the same.
But my far more fundamental objection to the term
is that it equates intellectual property with physical property.
And a lot of the rules around physical property,
even if you don't support them,
they may make some kind of sense.
If one person's living somewhere, you can't have everyone all living there.
So there's some sense to property regulation.
But intellectual property does not behave at all the same way as physical property.
So to call it the same thing
implies that we should start treating it the same,
which is, I think, a grave mistake.
Well, I mean, for one thing, data is meant to be copied.
I mean, that's one of the things that when you create computer data,
it's by default designed to be transmitted and copied.
So you can't treat it the same way as a physical object,
which you can't, you know, outside of Star Trek,
you can't replicate and make another one.
It reminds me of people who say,
I don't respect them if they believe this,
but if someone takes a picture, it's like them stealing their soul.
Yeah, well, it's...
It's that argument.
That is an interesting point.
You're taking something away from them.
And in this case, with so-called intellectual property,
you're not really taking anything away from the creator of that.
Well, how about lost sales?
Well, if you're not going to buy it anyway.
See, that's the thing.
How do you prove something like that?
The person would have bought it.
How do you prove the person would not have bought it?
It's an impossible argument, an impossible scenario.
You don't know these things.
And I believe there's all kinds of studies that say
that there is no real effect on sales.
Two things.
First, go back to the simpler argument.
If you take physical property that belongs to person A away,
he no longer has that.
He cannot use that in any way, shape, or form.
He may be deprived of a necessity.
If you take intellectual property from him, on the other hand,
he still has at least some uses of it.
Be it a book, an idea, a patent, a blueprint.
You have not deprived him in the same way or to the same extent.
And secondly, the absurdities in dealing with the two the same
are illustrated by my favorite example of intellectual property gone haywire,
which is that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame sues people
who take pictures of the building and sells them for...
Wait a minute. Wait, wait. Stop. What?
You haven't heard this? No.
This is like 10 years old.
Well, maybe that's why I didn't hear it.
You mean if you go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, right?
If you go outside the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland...
I think God's name is in Cleveland, but never mind that.
And you take a picture of the building.
They won't sue you if you sell it as a poster or a T-shirt.
They have done this in the past.
They're not selling pictures of buildings as T-shirts or posters.
Well, you know, the Empire State Building or the World Trade Center would be a natural enemy.
Wait a minute. There was a picture of the Hotel Pennsylvania on a 2600 T-shirt.
Well, thankfully, they don't have the same attitude as the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
That was a drawing, Bernie, and it was a parody.
Although I understand from this weekend that parody is not protected either,
that if you create parody, you must get permission from the people you're parodying.
It depends.
Where is this from?
All kinds of legal opinions that if you create a...
For one thing, Weird Al Yankovic is a guy that goes around making parodies.
He always asks permission of the artist that he's parodying.
Weird Al Yankovic...
I don't understand why he would do that.
He copies the songs he's parodying.
In other words, the music is identical.
I don't really understand or care to understand.
But, yeah, obviously this is something that's going to affect many, many people in the future.
And the way that they move these things, obviously, is to equate people with terrorism
and child pornographers and things like that.
And, in fact, Orrin Hatch said this.
He said,
The operators of P2P networks are running a conspiracy
in which they lure children and young people with free music, movies, and pornography.
With these human shields...
I'm not making this up.
The P2P companies are trying to blackmail the entertainment industries
into accepting their networks as a distribution channel and source of revenue.
And this is a quote.
Unfortunately, piracy and pornography could then become the cornerstones of a business model.
That's Orrin Hatch saying that.
Someone out there knows who's feeding those brownies to Senator Hatch.
And I want you to stop now.
You could almost say our democracy is being plundered.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, let's give out the phone number.
212-209-2900
A couple of interesting pieces of mail that we get.
You can write to us.
OTH at 2600.com
We'll give out the street address later.
A lot of mail from our talk about Australia.
I really enjoy the show and the magazine.
In regards to your last episode,
there is one Australian convention I know of that's RUXCON.
It's an Australian security convention in Sydney.
www.ruxcon.org
which might be of interest to you.
Signed Neurologic from Sydney.
I'm looking for more of a hacker-type convention.
Are there any of those going on in Australia?
I'd like to go to one of those, maybe.
After hearing a letter from an Australian listener to your show last week,
I felt compelled to write to you and remind you not to forget about the little country next to it, New Zealand.
Although there doesn't seem to be much of a hacking scene here anymore,
it doesn't mean that the few of us can't have a bit of fun with the phone system that we have.
Perhaps you'd like to visit and explore the telecom provider
or our two cell phone providers and the insecurities therein.
And if you get homesick, you can always call up AT&T, Verizon, or a Sprint operator.
I don't know why the hacking scene wouldn't be there anymore.
Hacking scenes seem to grow.
They go into different areas.
They change, but disappearing is kind of a rarity.
Is New Zealand still a nuclear-free zone?
I believe so.
And a region-free zone, too, for DVDs.
You know, if I ever go somewhere and get homesick
and try to remedy this by calling Sprint, please let me know.
You won't want to go home after talking to a Sprint operator, will you?
Anyway, on a more technical note,
I'm curious about a new public transport payment mechanism being implemented here in Christchurch,
which is the name of one of their cities.
All public transportation here is provided by a large bus network,
which has adopted a new method of payment in addition to the nation's currency.
It's called the MetroCard.
This card, which is...
Of course, there must be a hundred MetroCards throughout the world.
This card, which is identified to each user by a wealth of details and identification,
is nothing more than a slab of plastic.
It has no visible magnetic stripe, chip, or other mechanism.
You simply place the card on a reader, even if it is within a wallet,
and it will deduct the amount from your balance.
So I'm not sure if this is a central system
or the information is actually stored on the card.
I'm curious as to what technology this is.
I don't even know what to call it.
I read about a similar system being used in London, but nothing more.
Does anybody know? Signed, Phil.
This sounds similar to the system that they were, last I heard, still attempting to roll out.
Maybe they've made a little progress in the Bay Area,
which is an interesting case because each little pocket of the Bay Area
is served by a different transportation company.
So the notion of one payment mechanism
where you could store all your wealth of transit passes and whatnot
is almost as big a political issue as anything else.
Barney, do you know anything about this system?
No, but it sounds like it uses RFID technology,
and it would be great if this listener could physically mail
one of those MetroCards to us at Off The Hook.
Yeah, that would be nice, too.
It would be greater if he could mail several of them.
Well, sure.
Knot, fold, spindle, or mutilate.
It sounds similar to the proximity badge technology
that I've used to enter buildings.
Are you familiar with that?
Which is a form of RFID.
It's RFID? Okay.
Yes.
You hold that up to like a little sensor by the door.
Mm-hmm.
That looks like HAL.
It's got this black box with a red dot in the middle of it.
It reminds me of HAL.
On the subject of RFID, we had another listener write in,
it seems to me that multiple badges next to each other
prevent a proper read from any of the badges.
I would think that a similar problem would occur.
He was talking about HID badges.
A similar problem would occur with RFID.
Could the answer to the destruction of RFID be more tags, not fewer?
If we could drown ourselves out in a sea of RFID,
could we possibly prevent ID due to a high signal-to-noise ratio?
Signed, Adam.
And for anybody who just tuned in and heard that sentence, don't panic.
Well, the cards themselves don't emit a signal.
They only reflect a signal back that's sent to them.
So it's not like you could create a huge RF noisy environment
by just putting a bunch of cards in one place.
Oh, no. Oh, no.
The other day the New York Times had an article about our friends at Walmart.
You remember a month or two ago we talked about their desire to put RFIDs on everything?
They apparently are having trouble.
They cannot pick up the interior RFIDs on pallets
or when there's a lot of items stacked together.
Well, that's just because some of them are buried behind metal products or something.
If you've got a big pallet full of lunchboxes that are made of stainless steel or something
and you've got the RFID tag on the outside of the case behind the steel lunchboxes,
it's not going to pick it up.
And I don't think it's because there's too many signals reflecting back.
It's just because it's just a very weak signal that bounces back.
These things don't have a lot of range. It's just a few feet.
That's true.
Continuing, on last week's show you read a letter from someone who said they got spammed
because they gave ID to Amtrak.
It's a similar story. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
And around the summer of 1998, 1997, I needed to rent a small truck to move some things.
I went to basic car and truck rental here in Grand Rapids.
And when I went to rent the truck, they asked not only for my license and credit card
but for my social security number.
I said, I don't have my card on me.
The person replied, that's okay. Do you remember your number?
I said, yes. I gave it to them.
And I asked them why they needed that information.
They said the federal government requires it because of the Oklahoma City bombing.
I needed to rent a truck again a few months later.
I went to another rental company.
They did not ask my social security number.
So then he goes on to say he was receiving junk mail and telemarketing calls.
But of course you don't need a social security number to do that.
That's from Jeff in Detroit. Thanks very much for that letter.
I don't know. What are the rules these days with car rental places?
Driver's license and credit card.
No social security number.
Well, many driver's licenses, like Pennsylvania here,
you must give your social security number when you get the license.
And they print it right on the card, which is a really stupid idea.
You're much more vulnerable to identity theft if you lose your wallet
and your name and address and date of birth and social security number
are all right there for anyone to steal your identity with.
So it's a bad idea to use social security numbers for anything but social security.
Can you opt out of that in Pennsylvania somehow?
Nope.
There's no way to say don't print my social security number on my driver's license.
You can say that, but they won't listen to you.
That's scary. That really is.
Is a mutilated Pennsylvania driver's license acceptable?
It's a crime to mutilate it.
What if you accidentally put your soldering iron right over where the social security number is?
Then it's an altered driver's license, and possession of it is a crime.
It's not altered, officer. I had an accident with my soldering iron.
It doesn't matter how it happened.
Let me give some ominous news from the Netherlands,
and we'll take some phone calls, 212-209-2900.
This, thanks to a listener named Erwin,
is a translation of something that appeared in today's Telegraph over there in Holland.
The government is working on a system to inform everyone in the Netherlands
on the risk of terrorist attacks.
The system uses color codes, most likely on a scale from green to red.
The Minister of Interior Affairs and the DOJ,
our Department of Justice, or theirs, I don't know,
informed the House of Representatives about the plan.
They have a House of Representatives, too, I guess.
Anyway, a bit further in the article, the ministers say that, for example,
citizens could be encouraged to report anything unusual.
That's all the info I have for now.
Somehow I have a feeling of déjà vu.
That's the kind of thing you see happening all over the place, I guess.
If it informs the Dutch public debate, our system doesn't really seem to do anything.
No, we're still at yellow.
And I feel red.
I just do.
Okay.
We have other stories, but we also have a lot of calls,
so let's see if we can get to some of those.
212-209-2900.
Let's take our first call. Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello. Good evening.
How are you doing?
Hi. Was that me or Rebel?
Sorry?
Oh, that's me.
Okay, yeah. Emmanuel, hi.
I called you up, like, a few weeks ago.
You called in counterfeited money?
You're calling with a real echo. Are you near a radio or something?
Yes. I was listening to you.
I want to turn it down a little bit.
I did. I will do it now.
Okay. All right.
Yeah, here's two stories for you.
One on how to do, what to do with Sprint, because I had a similar problem with AT&T.
All you have to do, you have all, of course, you have all the documents, all the bills with you?
Uh-huh.
Okay, all you have to do is just tell them I'm going to take you to a small claim court,
because that's what I did with AT&T, and I won big.
Actually, before the email goes to the small claim court, they conceded and gave me everything.
Okay.
Okay, that's number one.
Number two, about the terrorist list you were talking about.
Yes.
I have a really, I cannot, I have counterfeited money, but I cannot mail it to you,
because a friend of mine really advised me not to do that.
The mail counterfeit money in the mail, yeah, probably isn't a good idea.
Yeah, because, no, you want to see it, you want to look at it.
I'd like to see counter, I mean, I'm not saying people should make counterfeit money,
but if somebody has a counterfeit bill, I am interested in looking at it.
I mean, that's, I think a lot of people would say the same thing.
Yeah, okay, I want to mail it to you.
So if anyone wants to come to the 2600 meeting on Friday and bring counterfeit money, I will look at it.
No, I'm going to do it.
But that's not a, that's not a.
You can keep it, but you know, you know, I'm going to mention my name, anything about me,
because I'm an Arab-American, so no.
May I ask how you got the counterfeit money?
Okay, because I got it from work, where I work, someone paid for it and gave it to me,
and I fell for it, and it was so good, you really cannot tell the difference.
Okay, so you didn't get it from your laser printer or something, that's the important thing.
I don't know, I really don't know.
The second thing about, you know, this terrorist list, from my personal experience,
and thanks to the Patriot Act, last year I was in a, I'm not going to say the country or anything,
but I was in the Redwoods outside the U.S., and so on the way back after my vacation was over,
so of course we had the visual airline, so in the airport, the airline said to me,
you know, I'm sorry sir, you cannot get an airplane and go back to the U.S.,
so I said, excuse me, yeah, we got, you know, a call from the online security,
not to let you back in the U.S.
I said, lady, I am a U.S. citizen, this is a U.S. passport, it must be a mistake.
So I gave him my social security number and my address and my home phone number,
so of course I was hoping that there was no problem, something like that, a mistake.
But it seems to me like this terrorist list generates just, you know, an automatic response,
so no matter what kind of info you put in, as soon as you don't get your name on the list,
they don't want to let you in.
They said you're not allowed to come back into the country because of a phone call from Homeland Security.
Because my name matches, they didn't say why, but I figured out my name is on the list,
this terrorist list.
So it's for real, and to make matters worse, that was on Friday night,
so the U.S. embassy is closed for the weekend.
You have no idea what I had to go through just to convince the guy to put me on the airline
and I will deal with it when I get back home.
So finally an American who was working for an American airline in that country was passing by
and he stopped and we really got into really heated arguments with them.
Of course he speaks his language better than me, so I think he convinced them to put me on the airplane
and let me deal with it with customs and immigration in here, which is exactly what happened.
When I got back in here, you know that they swipe your passport now at the immigration.
So when they swiped it, the lady looked at me, and the funny thing is, look at her face.
It's like she saw Osama Bin Laden in the flesh.
And I saw her, I said, that's it, I really have a big problem.
So she gave me my passport, put it back in, like in a red envelope, red,
and she instructed me to go to a certain room and hand it over the passport there, which I did.
After they called me, and the funny thing is, as soon as the lady was in that room,
she swiped the passport, she was laughing hysterically,
and she called everybody in the room to come in and take a look at my passport.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Did you ever find out what's so funny about your passport?
Okay, this is the good part.
You have no right to check to see why your name is on the passport.
The only thing they told me is your name is very common.
Okay, so you please just tell me what is it, what's wrong,
so this way I can avoid this problem in the future.
No, they won't let me do that.
Amazing. So you're going to go through this every time you pass through customs.
I really have no idea.
That's my worst fear, and I don't know what to do.
But this is funny.
They don't have to tell you why and who put your name on the license plate.
Interesting story about this terrorist lifestyle and all this bologna.
However, I'm going to see you at the meeting on 2600,
or I mean 120 Wall Street,
and I'll hand you the count of your money and enjoy it.
Okay, well, it sounds like an interesting meeting coming up.
Thanks.
Okay, this is Ahmad. Good night, guys. I love you.
Thanks. Thanks for your call.
Boy, you have to wonder sometimes, you know.
Coming into the country can be a real, I mean, you know, it's always a challenge,
but some people really have a challenge, especially when your name matches.
And, you know, it brings to mind that flight from Heathrow to Washington
and it keeps getting canceled.
They finally renumbered the flight, thinking that might help.
You know, and you have to ask yourself what kind of logic is behind this.
The other day they canceled the flight because a psychic said there might be a bomb on board.
And they said, well, you know, we have to investigate every possibility.
And as if a psychic saying something is a legitimate possibility in the eyes of Homeland Security.
I think they should arrest the psychic for making a false threat.
Well, you know, how is it any different?
Really, how is it any different?
You're saying that you had a vision.
And, okay, are we going to say now that people have visions?
They're going to be dictating policy in governmental affairs?
Well, it would be more of a basis than the current administration.
It might not be a bad idea.
It's going on already.
Yeah. It would explain a lot.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hi, Emmanuel.
Hi, how are you doing?
Okay.
Somebody mentioned Weardow earlier.
Let me just shut my radio off.
Okay.
Somebody mentioned Weardow.
Somebody mentioned Weardow.
He did get in trouble some years ago.
I don't know if you remember the song by Coolio from the movie with Michelle Pfeiffer?
Yeah.
About the teacher?
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Weardow did a parody of that song.
And Coolio was not happy, of course.
And he threatened to sue.
It's Gangster's Paradise, I believe.
Right.
I think that, yes.
Yes.
And so I just wanted to declare that because somebody mentioned that he has done this over the years with Michael Jackson and Madonna and other people.
And evidently there was no problem.
They didn't threaten to sue.
But for whatever reason, Coolio threatened to sue.
I cannot follow that logic at all.
It's a parody.
It's making fun of something.
Did you ever read Not the New York Times?
It looks exactly like the New York Times.
You know, parodies are supposed to resemble the original and obviously mock them in some way.
Anybody who would confuse it with the original really isn't paying much attention to start with.
Right.
So I just thought I'd mention that because somebody had mentioned Weardow earlier in the conversation.
And another thing, is it common for cell phone companies to send two bills if you had upgraded?
For example, I got a bill from AT&T the other day.
And I said I had recently upgraded from the digital to what they call the next generation, meaning I got a phone with the Internet and so on and so forth.
And they sent me two bills.
One was for the new service and the other one was for the old.
And on the bottom of the bill, it says, you know, once you pay this off, you know, you're just going to get one bill.
But until you do, you're going to get two bills.
Well, check the date.
Usually there's a date of service.
And one might go up until a certain date and then the next bill might take over from that date.
If they're both for the same date period, though, that's obviously a problem.
Oh, no.
Well, I think this one's a consistent bill that I got the other day, the digital.
I think the bill was up until March, the beginning of March, whereas the new service, I started that in the middle of February.
And the other service, I terminated in the middle of February.
Do you have the same account number on both of these?
No, it's two different account numbers.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
I would suggest calling up AT&T and just confronting them with this and say, you know, I want this on one bill.
It's one phone number.
I terminated the digital service.
So I guess it's for the period prior to me terminating.
So I'm assuming that that's the case.
Just make sure they're not billing you for a period they're already billing you for in the other service.
Right.
Otherwise, you know, it seems to be what AT&T and Sprint and all the other ones like to do.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you.
Thanks for your call.
Leo, you have something?
Yes.
The whole Coolio-Weidel-Yankovic thing was Coolio did not threaten to sue.
He did not give permission to Weidel to use the song.
But Weidel got the permission not from Coolio but from his recording company.
And also the RFID thing, Moscow's Metro uses it.
They use paper cards, magnetic stripes that get sucked into the turnstiles.
That's the usual pass.
But if you're a student or a senior citizen, you have the RFID cards, which then have magnetic strip and just hold it up to the turnstile.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah.
I have a story about Sprint.
What I did was I had Dell Pocket PC and it was their first Pocket PC and I had Sprint at the same time.
And I had the Sprint service with unlimited vision.
So what I did was I had them transfer the Sprint phone number to this compact flash card that Sprint sells.
So it was basically like transferring the phone number from one phone to another phone.
And I asked them ahead of time.
I called them, as a matter of fact, a couple of times before I purchased it and asked them could I do it.
And they said yes.
I'll ring the bell.
Hello?
Bernie, what?
I'm sorry.
Okay.
Sorry.
Continue.
Yeah.
So after I transferred the service to the card and used the card in the Pocket PC, my phone was actually getting shut off every three days.
They would turn my service off.
And for the entire time that I had that account, I'd never received an accurate bill.
So they would bill me.
The bill would go up to like $700.
They would shut the phone off and then erase the $700 off of it.
And then the phone would get turned back off for another three days.
And this went on for months.
Wow.
Because I was using the unlimited vision that they were offering.
And I was using that instead of basically making phone calls.
I actually didn't make any phone calls with it.
I was just using the vision service to go online with my Pocket PC.
Amazing.
Yeah.
But I have another question because I got another Dell Pocket PC, and this one has Wi-Fi.
And I heard someone mention that about the Wi-Fi.
And I'm very interested in this voice over IP because where I live, downtown Brooklyn, is not far from the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
As a matter of fact, right on the other side of the BQE.
And I go online with my Pocket PC for free.
I'm picking up a Wi-Fi signal from the industrial park back there.
And almost everywhere I go in the city, I get a free Wi-Fi signal that I go online with.
And I'm wondering, are you guys familiar with any program or anything where I can use that voice over IP to use my Pocket PC to make phone calls and stuff like that?
There's a cryptophone.
If you go to cryptophone.de, there's a free piece of software that runs under Windows CE.
Oh, great.
So I can use it on the Pocket PC?
It may work.
I don't know.
I'm not sure.
It's supposed to work under Pocket.
Yeah.
Is it?
Because that's the same operating system that the cryptophone uses.
Yeah, I have the new Pocket PC running the Windows Mobile 2003.
Go to cryptophone.de.
That's for Germany.
D as in David?
Yeah, D-E as in Deutschland.
Yes.
Okay.
Cryptophone.de.
Right.
Cryptophone.
We'll have more demonstrations of that at the conference coming up in July as well.
So if people are interested in that, definitely attend and learn something about that.
Bernie, I want to close off with a story you told me before we went on the air.
You have to make it really quick, though, something that happened to you and Laszlo when you went over to Switzerland.
Oh, yeah.
When we went to Europe a couple weeks ago, we had to pick up a connecting flight in Zurich.
So we landed in Zurich.
And as soon as the plane touched down and started slowing down, this armored personnel carrier, it looked like a tank.
There's six big knobby tires, a big green monstrous vehicle with a flashing orange light and a gun turret on top of it.
Pulls up next to the airplane right outside my window and paces the plane for a good five minutes as we taxied over to the gate.
It was the weirdest thing.
And this gun turret was pointed in the general direction of the plane.
That's a strange way of greeting airlines in Switzerland.
It was very intimidating.
I felt more intimidated by that than any homeland security crotch winding I've had before.
So we took a picture of this thing, and it was really bizarre.
It was this tank right next to the commercial airline just pacing it for five minutes.
And then when we got to the gate, it sort of sat there and stared at us.
Did you happen to see others, or was it just one for your plane?
It looked like there was just one for the whole airplane because we had a couple hours to walk around the airport, and we were looking out the big windows.
That's the only one we saw.
Wow.
And you say you took pictures of this?
Yes.
Phone pictures?
They're not really good pictures.
No, they were with the camera, but they were through the window.
Unfortunately, we were sitting right by the wing, so it was almost like this tank was hiding under the wing as it was following us.
But we got a couple of pictures that were reasonably visible, so maybe we can put them online.
If anybody in Switzerland is listening and understands just why you have tanks greeting airplanes, we'd like to know.
So, please write to us at SOTH at 2600.com or our street address, which is off the hook here at WBAI, 120 Wall Street, New York, New York.
1-0-0-0-5.
Thank you, Jim.
And that's going to do it for us here tonight.
We have meetings coming up this Friday, so if there's a meeting in your city, please attend and show your support of the hacker community.
Meetings can be found at www.2600.com slash meetings.
And, of course, we'll be meeting at Citigroup here in New York, 5 to 8 p.m. on Friday.
We'll see you next week. Good night.
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's all been so long, she hasn't saved my mind
Why it's all been such a long time
Maybe she's leaving, maybe she's in
Phones disconnected, unpaid bills
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
Don't want to see her, afraid of what I find
Tired of letting her upset me all the time
Back in the bed, started reading my book
Take my phone right off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's off the hook
It's all the hood, it's all the hood, it's all the hood
So you think you know music? Well on Friday, April 2nd, 2004 on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York
From 12 midnight to 3 am, the Midnight Ravers have cleverly conceived another audience-participated classic.
Something we've entitled, Pick the Original.
The Midnight Ravers have selected three songs for you to choose from, and as the title implies, Pick the Original.
Everybody! Get up! Get on up now!
Everybody!
This show is guaranteed to intrigue all musical tastes, so don't miss it.
Let me see you!
Join us at the Temple on Friday, April 2nd, 2004 from 12 midnight to 3 am on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
And let's see if you can pick the original.
The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
Miss it and hate yourself.