I'm Sputnik Kilamby in Hyderabad for Free Speech Radio News.
Free Speech Radio News is produced at WBAI by Cutter Mester. Headlines editors from WMNF
in Tampa, Florida are Randy Zimmerman and Nell Abrams. Our DC editor is Josh Chaffin.
Our producers are KPFA in Berkeley, Ajay Paget-Seekins and Pauline Bartolone. We have production
assistants from Carlos Favada and Rosalind Fay. We have web support from Vanessa Tate
and Leslie Holmes. You can go to our website at www.ffrn.org. I'm Deepa Fernandes.
This is WBAI in New York. Off The Hook is next.
Good evening. Emanuel Abrams here. I'm the editor of WBAI in New York.
Are you there? I'm here. You know, I didn't hear a theme.
You didn't hear a theme? It's playing here. That's interesting. There must be a button
on there that makes it so that you can't hear it going out physically. But yes, I'm here.
Are you there? Yeah, we're here.
Okay, great. This is where they're supposed to be. And I think Bernie's on the line with
us as well. Is that right? I'm here also. Hello, Jeff.
How are you doing, Ed? Pretty good.
How are you, Bernie? Very good.
What a modern marvel of technology we have here tonight. I'm down here in Atlanta, Georgia.
In fact, if you ever watch the news network CNN, you'll know that they have a program
called Talk Back Live. Right now, I'm pretty much on that set. That set happens to be in
the middle of a mall. It's a food court right next to it. I found out watching the TV program,
which I think is on every afternoon around the same time as BAI Talk Back is on. I don't
know who got the title first. Are you on camera?
I'm not on camera because the cameras have all been put away. It's nighttime down here
and they only do the show for one hour a day. But I say this because if anyone is in Atlanta
and they want to come and be a part of the Mythic Liberation Tour, well, feel free to
come down to the CNN building and come to where I talk back. Actually, I'm in the food
court right now, right next to the Talk Back area.
This is, of course, part of the Mythic Liberation Tour that's taking place over the next few
weeks. Kevin Mythic will be released of all obligation as far as having to report to the
government his whereabouts and permission to travel and not being allowed to use a computer
on the internet. That all comes to a screeching halt on January 20th. At least that's what
we hope. Well, last time this happened, a number of years ago, it was, I believe, less
than 30 days when federal authorities decided that Kevin had violated his probation and
went after him. Of course, that started the whole series of years on the run, followed
by five years in prison. What's currently going to be the closed chapter in history
once these three years of supervised release following those five years in prison comes
to an end. Basically, what we're doing is we're going across the country, retracing
the steps that we took when we filmed Freedom Down Time. We're going to a bunch of other
places as well, culminating in California on the 20th. We'll be filming selections
for the DVD, the Freedom Down Time DVD, which everybody has been clamoring about ever since
the video came out. But the DVD won't be done until we finish filming the new segments.
And then we'll be heading back east in the northern part of the country. But right now
we're in Atlanta. We'll be in Orleans tomorrow and various other places. If you want to meet
up with the caravan or whatever it is you want to call it, right now it's only one vehicle
so it's not much of a caravan, you can email us at downtime, at Freedom Down Time, but
just the word downtime. At 2677.com, let us know where you are and if that's the line
that we're traveling down. Again, apologies to the people we haven't met up with. We've
gotten so much mail from people that wanted to meet up with us, like somebody who demanded
to meet up with us. We missed at least one parade in our honor and it's because we didn't
go down that interstate. We went down another one and we're sorry about that misunderstanding.
But we'll try. We'll try our best. We're in that area. Again, we appreciate all the
mail that we've been getting. And I'm sorry for the people we've blamed.
We should warn you, Emmanuel, that your audio is chopping in and out.
Is it bad enough to be distracting to anyone who might be listening?
It's distracting to me, but I don't know about other listeners.
I have a low tolerance for audio, I know that.
No, Emmanuel, he has a very high tolerance. I've ridden in the car with him. It's amazing
what he will listen to and put up with.
You don't like listening to short waves, Jeff, because it fades in and out.
Okay, okay. These two guys traveled together in Europe and I chose throughout the reception.
If you want, I can call back on my GSM phone. It's up to you guys.
I would do it, Emmanuel. You did sound a lot better.
I sound a lot better on the GSM phone.
Okay, well, this is a good thing for listeners to know.
Right now I'm talking to you on a Sprint TTS phone, otherwise known as a Happy phone.
And I'll be talking to you in a moment on a GSM phone, and we'll see how that works.
So the next time you'll be hanging up, hopefully after that you'll hear me again.
And there's somebody there that can press all the little buttons, right?
Yeah.
Okay, well, here I go and here I come again.
Okay.
We'll keep our fingers crossed that none of us gets dropped.
No, you should be fine. We've got two engineers in here now.
A whole contingent of engineers.
So how has it been for you since you've been back? You had quite a harrowing experience.
I finally landed safely at JFK from Amsterdam.
Listeners who might not have heard last week's show, somewhere over the British Isles,
my KLM flight developed a steering problem.
The steering failed on the airplane, and they had to switch to manual steering.
It's kind of like your power steering in your car failing.
And they had to slowly turn around back over the North Sea and dump nearly all their fuel in the North Sea,
and then land in Amsterdam, and it delayed my arrival by several hours.
So I couldn't be in the studio as I'd hoped to last week.
Now I'm in Philadelphia.
So, yeah, that was an adventure.
I'm returning now, and I'm on a GSM phone. I don't know if you can hear me.
Yes, yes, we can. We can also hear you.
Can I sound better? Yes. Much better.
We can understand every word you're saying.
And hear the passing traffic.
Okay, I'm not hearing anything. I just heard Jim's for some reason.
Try to get into a quiet place.
Okay, well, I'm in a food court.
You can't get very quiet around here.
Well, tell the people to stop chewing. I'll try.
All right, we've got you back.
Where do you want to start, Emmanuel?
Well, let's see.
Where do we start?
Well, Bernie, you just told your story.
Now, there's nothing.
No more details have come out.
Well, I did contact KLM's American division, which is Northwest Airlines,
and I spoke today with a Christy Cody in press relations.
That's confused with Christy Coding.
And Christy tells me it's going to be difficult to get that information right away,
but she promises me that in the next week she'll find out exactly what went wrong with that airplane,
why the steering failed, and why they had to dump all the fuel into the North Sea.
So that'll be interesting.
I'm kind of curious, because the rest of the passengers and myself really didn't feel like we were filled in
onto what was really going on with that flight.
Are they going to cover your call?
Well, that's kind of interesting.
As you may know, I called to relate the story from the satellite phone on the 747 airplane
because I didn't get to New York when I was supposed to.
And that call at $11.95 a minute probably cost a few hundred dollars.
So after I landed, I thought, well, KLM is going to have to pay for this
because it's their fault I didn't get to the WBAI studios on time.
And just to be sure they didn't take this money from my Visa debit card account,
I canceled my card.
And it'll be a little more interesting now to see how this is resolved.
I'm sure once they had the money, then it would be much more difficult to get it back.
So they hadn't actually taken the money out of your account by the time you landed?
Well, as of two days after New Year's, I guess the 3rd of January,
they had not tried to bill my account.
And that's when I canceled the account, figuring, well, if they haven't billed it yet,
I'm not going to let them.
So I don't know if these things are – apparently they're not instantaneously billed.
But we'll see what happens.
If I get a call from my bank saying, hey, these people want several hundred dollars for a phone call,
then I'll know they're trying to get the money.
I should point out, Bernie, that KLM is the airline you flew on.
I'm sure the people that processed the call are not the airline.
So they're going to be not really all that concerned with the fact that the flight was diverted and dumped fuel.
But I'm quite sure that KLM gets a large cut of these calls,
or they wouldn't allow these phones to be on their planes.
Yeah, that's certainly true.
Well, we'll see that people are taken care of as they should be.
Well, they should at least tell people what happened, because you reported this yesterday,
or rather last week, and I looked around.
I'm sure a lot of our listeners looked around.
We couldn't find any information on this KLM flight that had all these problems.
By the way, it was a KLM flight 643 leaving Amsterdam to JFK on New Year's Day.
I have to kind of echo the words of all the people who wrote in to us after the Michael McGinnis story.
You know, where's your proof, Bernie?
I mean, did this really happen to you, or are you putting us on?
I have a few hundred witnesses, so that's good.
Well, where are they? Are they in the studio?
Actually, they're...
What are their names? Where are they from? Who are these people?
Where are they? I haven't heard a word from them.
Do you have numbers?
Yeah.
It's very easy to perpetuate myths on the media.
Have you guys been following this whole clone situation?
Yes, we have.
We actually saw it while we were in Germany.
Jeff and I watched on television the initial press conference with the aliens discussing this.
And then we watched the follow-up story the day after where this guy in a spaceman suit and a ponytail got on camera.
It was pretty good.
I just don't understand how these guys can go on international television
and have it reported that they've cloned a human being and really not provide a shred of evidence.
Nothing at all.
Better than that, they were denounced by the Pope.
Well, the fact that they were denounced by the Pope means the Pope heard about it.
You know, it's really not hard.
And if it was reported to the Pope, then that means that someone in the Vatican took it seriously enough to actually say,
well, this isn't just an Onion News report. This is real.
You know, if that French doctor woman didn't look like an alien the way she does,
I don't think she would have gotten a minute of airtime.
There's your proof.
I don't think we have to get nasty about it, but, you know, the question remains,
how do such things get reported as news?
And, you know, when people ask where's the proof, that's the best example I can think of
because everybody reported that story and nobody had any proof.
So why report things when it's such an outrageous thing in the first place?
And, you know, the people have kind of a history of, well, lunacy, I guess, is the best way of phrasing it,
and just no evidence.
You know, it's kind of bizarre.
But I wanted to mention an airplane story that I had, too.
It involved when I got back.
My flight over the ocean was pretty smooth, but because of the way I got my ticket,
I had to fly into Washington and then fly from Washington back to Newark,
which was the opposite of what I did on the way over there.
On the way from Washington to Newark, and I was also flying an airline that's technically bankrupt.
Which one?
I'm sorry?
Which one?
United.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, a more recently bankrupt airline.
And the planes that they used to get from Washington to Newark are rather small, to put it lightly.
And we looked out the window and saw the plane, and this was a plane that had propellers.
And it was amazing to watch the reaction of people as they came to check in and saw the plane.
You know, we're actually like, oh, my God, I'm not getting on that thing.
How does that thing fly in the first place?
It was funny watching.
Of course, they all got on in the end anyway.
But people were just very nervous getting on this thing that looked old.
And it wasn't old.
That was the funny thing.
It was in the 90s.
And it was probably, I was told by many, many people with a good background in such things,
that these planes are as safe as planes can possibly be.
So, of course, today, that very type of plane is what crashed in Charlotte, North Carolina.
And it really kind of made me very uneasy because I looked at the model of it,
and it was exactly the same as far as I could tell.
I'm not really an expert on that kind of a thing.
I was sitting in the very front seat next to the door.
You could touch the door with your hand.
And it's, you know, the door that's on the opposite side of the plane.
You could hear the pilots, you know, talking to each other.
And it was, you know, very nerve-wracking.
It was only a 40-minute flight, but it was a very nerve-wracking flight.
To make it even more coincidental, I happened to be in Greenville, South Carolina.
That's where I spent the night last night.
And Greenville, South Carolina is where the plane that crashed this morning was headed.
So it's a small town, and they're dealing with a lot of tragedy today.
What were your feelings when you landed back in the United States, Emanuel?
I mean, I felt a very different feeling when I landed in New York
than I did when I landed in Amsterdam.
Well, I mean, I always feel different when I'm beginning a trip,
and I feel different when I'm ending a trip.
When I get back to the United States, I don't know, I guess I feel kind of cocky
because I know they have to let me in.
I know eventually, no matter what they put me through,
and I'm sorry for all the noise, but they're cleaning the tables next to me.
But I know that, you know, they might ask me a lot of questions.
They might search my luggage. They might do all kinds of things.
But in the end, they have to let me in.
So I'm sort of content to be a witness to what it is that they do.
This particular trip back, I don't think I've gone through so many security points as this.
I mean, I went through three in Amsterdam just to get on the plane.
Getting off in Washington, D.C., the first thing they do
is make you go through a metal detector when you get off the plane.
This is transferring to another flight.
But, I mean, I've never done that before.
And then, of course, there was customs and, you know, all kinds of border patrol people.
I even ran into a beagle.
They had a beagle there, part of the agriculture department, beagle patrol.
That goes around sniffing your bags to make sure you didn't bring any unauthorized food in.
And, of course, there are the drug dogs and the bomb dogs
and all kinds of other animals that are scrutinizing you as you walk through the airport.
Next time, you can travel with some dog biscuits.
Well, yeah, I'm not sure. I think you're immune to that.
But, you know, it's just interesting to see all the different precautions that are taking place.
You know, I didn't really feel singled out this time.
I wasn't.
The guy that asked me a lot of questions, he was trying to trip me up.
It was kind of funny.
He asked me where I was, how many days I was there.
And then, well, if you were there that many days, how could you have been gone this long?
And, of course, I had an answer for everything.
I was in Berlin for this amount of time.
I was in Amsterdam for this amount of time.
And then he wanted to know why my bag was so small.
I said, well, don't bring a whole lot of clothes with me.
You don't have to drag the chairs like that, people.
I'm sorry.
People here are just dragging all the chairs around.
And, you know, basically, he was looking for something to trip me up on.
And he couldn't find it.
And he just basically said, okay, go ahead.
But I could tell he really wanted me to be questioned further and searched.
He really said, you know, I felt sorry for him.
He seemed so upset that I was going to get away with whatever it was I was doing,
like just trying to get back into the country.
Shame on you.
Yeah.
I was questioned by customs as I came back because I had something to declare,
namely some tulips that I purchased in Amsterdam.
You know, I knew that was going to be a problem.
Well, I managed to get them into the country.
Uh-huh.
I purchased some tulips that may or may not have been approved for import to the United States.
And then I also purchased some other tulips that were definitely approved for purchase.
And in any case, I managed to convince the customs people that they were all approved.
Bernie, didn't you do that the last time we went?
No, I didn't.
You didn't bring tulips?
No, I did bring that tulip the last time I was in Amsterdam.
Yes, you did.
That's right.
And those were approved, though.
But this time I bought some back that weren't approved with some that were approved.
And I managed to convince the two nice customs gentlemen that they were both approved.
I bought them from the same guy, I said.
So that was kind of interesting.
They also were kind of interested in some candies that I purchased at a store.
Do you remember the candies that I purchased, the chocolate bars and gummy treats I purchased, Emmanuel?
Not specifically, but I was exposed to a lot of that kind of thing over there.
And it all kind of merges into one big mess.
Well, these were the...
Let's see if I still have a bar here.
It was Hempy Gummies.
You know, this is a technical radio program.
I was pointing out right now, we talk about issues of technology.
And right now we're talking about gummy bears and things.
That's true.
Well, these were gummy bears, but they were actually gummy marijuana leaves.
And also a chocolate bar that had...
It was like 8% hemp seeds.
Let me just point out for all the parents and federal officials that are listening.
When you say they were made of marijuana leaves, it was basically a symbol of a marijuana leaf, right?
No, they were not made of marijuana leaves.
They were shaped like marijuana leaves.
Shaped like marijuana, okay.
There was no marijuana in these.
But there was hemp...
I don't know if there was actually any hemp content in the gummy treats.
I'm looking here at the ingredients, but it's all in Dutch.
So I can't make it out.
But the chocolate bars, which had big marijuana leaf on a package,
had hemp seeds in them, which are supposed to be really good for you.
So I bought a whole case of them back to give away as sort of a gift for people.
I thought that was kind of interesting because you don't find them at the 7-Eleven here in the U.S.
And customers wanted to know...
They actually opened one up and looked at it and smelled it.
And I said, well, there's no actual marijuana in them.
And finally they let me take them in.
I think they must still be illegal under the DMCA.
Probably.
Speaking of which, we have some very good news as far as the ECSS program.
We're going to get to that as soon as we finish talking about any other things
that might be left over from our recent voice in the Chaos Communications Congress.
Incidentally, the Chaos Communications Camp is taking place this summer.
The date is still being firmed up.
It's going to be sometime in either late July, early August, or both.
And it will be taking place in Germany.
It will be similar to the one I think that took place four years ago.
And we're encouraging people to go over there and just learn a lot,
experience a different culture, and bring some of it back with you, as we did.
It's always a good thing to get out of the country for a little while
and experience these things and share the information.
And, of course, we're looking for ideas for our next conference,
which is also scheduled for 2004.
So we're always open to people who have ideas and have other ways of doing the same.
Emmanuel, your phone is starting to make different noises now.
How's your battery?
My battery is just great.
What kind of noises is it making?
It's almost a honking.
A honking.
Well, you know, I think the people in the mall here are literally dragging every single chair they can find.
You know that noise that food court chairs make when they drag them?
On the tile, sure.
Yeah, that's what they're doing right now.
And they're very dedicated to doing that.
I'm giving them a real dirty look now, and they seem to have stopped for the moment.
Is my phone still honking?
It's doing a funny kind of cutout with a little hum with it.
I'll call back on the other line if you want me to.
No, no, no, this is much better.
No, stay with this.
As long as the battery is good, stay with it.
The battery is fine.
I should also point out that I...
I'm sorry, go ahead, Bernie.
I was going to say, listeners may wonder why background noise sounds so very strange
when they're talking to somebody on a cellular phone or a PCS phone,
and that's because there's a device called a vocoder, which really digitizes your speech
and compresses it using algorithms that try to model your voice.
When you're hearing someone on a digital cell phone or a PCS phone,
you're not actually hearing their voice.
You're hearing a mathematical representation of their speech.
And the vocoder is valiantly trying to convert these background sounds into human speech,
and that's why it distorts them so much and makes them sound really, really weird.
Thank you, Mr. Roboto.
That was a nice little lesson in telephony there.
And that is, of course, the case.
It's electronic representation.
And I guess my electronic representation at the moment wants to make a honking noise while I speak.
Emanuel, before we move on to John Johanson,
the one thing I did want to bring up that we didn't get a chance to talk about last week
was Bernie and I went to the Checkpoint Charlie Museum,
which was basically a collection of everything that everyone used to get past the Berlin Wall.
All the cars, homemade ultralights, every system, every way, every tunnel,
everything was covered that they used to get out.
And it dawned on me about halfway through this thing that this was East Germany's Hacker Museum.
And it was just a fantastic collection of stories and vehicles, all kinds of things.
If anyone is there and ever has the chance, you have to put that on your list.
It is a must-see.
We spent a couple of hours there. It was really fascinating.
They had to throw me out.
Well, Berlin itself is just a fascinating city to be in.
So many things to see, such a mixture of the old and the new.
And, of course, a lot of recent history as well.
So, yes, I recommend that. I've never been to that actual museum myself.
But I was at the original Checkpoint Charlie in 1989, and that was quite a sight too.
Jeff asked me the question as we left.
And Bernie asked, did any of that move you?
I mean, were you able to feel anything seeing how these people tried to escape
under the watchful eye of armed guards?
And I said, well, yes, Jeff, I can actually relate to being behind barbed wire fences
with people toting machine guns and that sort of thing.
So, yes, I could definitely relate to how those people felt behind the wall.
And it's also interesting, too, Bernie, you talked to me earlier today
concerning such things, concerning people who have been in prison,
specifically Kevin Mitnick, where he's been under the watchful eye of the feds
since he was released in January of 2000.
And you mentioned something that was rather disturbing.
Do you want to share that with the listeners?
Yes, this week in Philadelphia, where this is the seat of the Federal Third Circuit Court,
a federal ruling was made that said that federal probation officers
are now permitted to require people under federal probation
to undergo polygraph examinations at any time for any reason.
And this brings up some interesting questions with regard to self-incrimination
and it opens up a whole can of worms.
So I think Kevin Mitnick is lucky that he's getting off of federal probation very soon
because it sounds like it's getting even more oppressive
where your right to refuse a polygraph is not allowed under federal law now
if you're under federal probation.
So it's a good thing that he's getting out, but I'm not happy about this happening for other people.
Well, it's interesting.
You know, federal probation, or probation in general,
seems to be kind of an experiment of citizens living in a free society,
a quote-unquote free society, with no rights whatsoever.
No right to vote, no right to privacy, all kinds of things, no right to travel.
And I think this is just another step in that direction.
And eventually, as threats increase,
these things are applied to more and more of the general population.
There are over one million people in this country who are under some form of probation or parole.
And the term probation is sort of a misnomer, I think, under the federal system.
There is no such thing as federal parole during the whole truth and sentencing thing
in the mid to late 80s during the war on drugs hysteria when that was beginning.
Federal parole was done away with,
and the U.S. Sentencing Commission then required that people would serve their entire sentence,
or like 90-some percent of their sentence, in prison.
And then they would serve an additional sentence of several years of supervised release,
which is kind of like being in prison without the bars.
And that's what federal probation is referred to.
Even though it's really, for all intents and purposes, it is parole,
but it's like parole on top of the entire sentence you already served.
And they call it probation.
Yeah, and the average person sees this as just further punishment for some kind of a crime
and forgets that the sentence has been served
and the person is supposed to be put back into society,
yet we seem to be increasingly believing that the person must be punished until the day they die.
And it's really unfortunate and sad to see society turn into something like this
where there's really no chance at all to make your life better.
I think we have to really take our hats off to Kevin for turning things around despite that,
despite the difficulty, the hardness of actually making a living with all the conditions that were put on him.
And I think being in very good shape, putting out a book, testifying before Congress,
dealing with a lot of personal tragedy also in the last three years,
it's a real inspiration.
And let's just hope that he's left alone until he's truly free
and he gets to actually experience the joy of traveling,
experience the joy of using the Internet.
I don't know how much of a joy that is anymore,
but it's something he hasn't been able to do since before he was locked up.
And I'm sure it's changed quite a bit in his eyes.
It's going to be a whole new world for him.
Yeah, yeah.
I can't describe enough for people what it's like to be out under that
after you've been under it for several years.
And Kevin will have been under this for about, what is it, eight years now?
Well, he was in prison for five years, on supervised release for three.
But don't forget, before that, he was on the run for a couple of years.
Before that, he was on supervised release for three years.
That's the one they determined that he had violated.
And before that, he was in prison for, I believe, a year or 18 months, rather,
eight months of which was a solitary confinement.
And, of course, that's what led to his going on the run
when he found out they were after him the second time.
So, you know, it's a long time.
He has not actually had a day of freedom, of real freedom,
where he can do whatever he wants, you know, within the law, obviously.
This was 1988. 1988.
This is a guy that, you know, hasn't been accused ever of stealing anything,
intentionally causing any kind of damage.
Just basically, you know, poking his nose in places he probably shouldn't poke his nose.
And I think I do that all the time.
I'm always on the verge of getting in trouble.
You know, in fact, I was in a place called Fredericksburg, Virginia, yesterday.
And I thought I was about to get arrested there.
I had no idea why.
I was in this really cheapo motel.
Oh, what the heck. It's a Days Inn.
No, it wasn't Days Inn. It was a Best Western.
And the rooms are really cheap. They're like 20 bucks.
And all I remember is, all night long, people were pounding on the door.
The phone was ringing. It was really kind of weird.
And finally in the morning, you know, I decide to answer the door.
I look through the little peephole, and there's this guy there.
He looks like a sheriff.
You know, he's got the glasses, and he's got, like, you know, the grim look on his face.
So I open the door and crack and say, yeah, what do you want?
And he says, what are you doing in there?
I'm waking up. I'm trying to wake up.
What do you mean, what am I doing in here?
I have no record of you being in this room.
Like, well, I'm in this room.
According to the motel records, there's nobody supposed to be in here.
And, you know, I said to him, well, that's your problem, isn't it?
I paid for a room here.
I've got a little key that says I'm supposed to be in here.
Apparently they messed up, and they assigned the room to the wrong people,
which explained why other people were trying to get into it in the middle of the night.
But the way that they acted, they treated us like we were criminals.
Like, there are all these people wandering around Virginia trying to, like, you know,
hole up in a $24 motel room for the night.
You know, and I really felt at that point that these people were about to kick the door in
and drag us away, and we didn't understand what the crime was.
It's very easy for these things to get out of control.
I found that out by luck in that particular situation.
It was all straightened out in the end, but it was scary.
You know, it's scary having somebody pound on your door
and demand to know what you're doing in a place where you think you have some privacy.
Wow, I'm glad that worked out.
Well, I guess it did.
I mean, you know, that happened on the first night.
The second night we wound up in a town that experienced a plane crash.
Who knows what's going to happen on the third night?
So it's an adventure to be sure, and we'll see what happens.
But now the important news is, of course, John Johansson in Norway,
the writer of the DECSS program, the alleged writer of the DECSS program.
If you recall, when 2600 was put on trial back in 2000,
it was this program that was at the center of everything.
John Johansson actually came over for the H2K conference and testified at the trial.
And, of course, we lost that case, thanks to Judge Kaplan.
It's a different story over in Norway, though.
He had a trial over there.
After all this pressure from the MPAA, he actually was facing criminal charges.
And this past week he was acquitted of all charges.
I have some details in front of me. I believe you guys in the studio do, though.
Yeah, I have some details here.
What's interesting is that according to the Afton Posten, which is news from Norway in English,
the court determined that it is not illegal to use DECSS code to watch DVD films obtained by legal means.
So evidently you can still use that program there in that country.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry, it's such a simple statement. Can you read that again, Jeff?
Sure.
It seems to make so much sense, it's so logical, yet that's not the law in this country.
The court determined that it is not illegal to use the DECSS code to watch DVD films obtained by legal means.
Yeah, I mean, that's something that should be put up and hung on walls inside frames.
It's a simple, logical statement.
And at no point during our situation did we ever advocate people obtaining DVDs through illegal means.
This was always a program that was written so that people could use the DVDs that they obtained legally on the platform of their choice.
That was the purpose of the program.
I heard a report last night on the BBC, which is rebroadcast on NPR stations, and I heard a report about this.
And I have to say, it was woefully inaccurate.
They said that DECSS was all about copying DVDs, and the Hollywood studios were upset because now they think the same thing is going to happen to them because that's happened to them with MP3s.
And they completely missed the real point of the story in that this gives consumers control over the technology that they have a legal right to.
It's all about fair use, it's all about cross-platforms.
They understood that over there, they got it.
They seem to understand that in almost every place, and we need to make sure they understand it here.
What I thought was fascinating about this whole legal process is that there was an actual delay in the process.
Well, they looked for a judge who was competent to understand the technology, so they didn't have to deal with all these metaphors of digital crowbars and whatnot that we had over here.
So I think when you actually understand what's going on, the answer is pretty clear.
But when you don't understand, you're faced with all these competing metaphors, and it's hard to know who's right.
Right. Yeah, I had trouble with a lot of the metaphors myself.
When you speak in metaphors, you don't always get the point across.
In fact, you very rarely do.
I'm very impressed with the Norwegian system where they actually spent the time to go out and make sure they got somebody who understood the technology.
I think we can learn so much from that, and let's hope that we fight this battle.
This battle is fought and won, so that we don't have to keep going through this.
And this victory was after the plaintiff, the prosecution, had many times changed during the trial.
What was it? They changed what they were charging him with or changed evidence? How many times?
That's a good question.
But you heard about that, Emmanuel. It was several times.
Yeah, well, I mean, they were looking for just the right way to approach John Johansson.
And I don't think the people that were prosecuting him really understood the technology themselves or what it was all about.
And I get that feeling increasingly in talking to people who are sort of on the other side.
They really believe it's about piracy, it's about copying, but the wool has been pulled over their eyes.
And once they understand what it's really about, it's different.
The laws there in Norway are apparently, the consumer laws are much more in favor of the consumer than of corporations,
as opposed to the other way around, which is the case in this country.
The Register had an interesting article as well.
They start off with saying the entertainment lobby has failed to persuade a Norwegian court to convict a teenager
for creating a utility for playing back DVDs on his own computer.
You know, I love the Register. They always get it right.
They understand what they're talking about. They've got that right sense of humor.
You know, why can't there be more journalists like the Register?
Sorry, I just had to say that.
The third paragraph goes on to say,
Norwegian prosecutors acting largely on the behest of the Motion Picture Association of America
argued in court that Johansson acted illegally in sharing his DE-CSS tool with others and distributing it via the Internet.
They claim the DE-CSS utility made it easier to pirate DVDs.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Of course, we're still enjoined from posting the DE-CSS code on our website
because of the outcome of the case that we were tried for back in 2000.
I look forward to the day when that's overturned and when we don't have such silliness to worry about.
It's going to involve people standing up, though, and fighting.
You know, we don't make any progress by shying away from these things.
And that sort of ties into the point I was trying to make last week with regards to people that we met overseas,
wanting them to come here to the United States to our conferences to help us with various issues, discussions, and things like that.
Most of the people that we talked to, me, Jeff, Bernie, when we were over there,
expressed great fear of coming to the United States for any reason.
And that's the reputation that the states are getting.
And it's really unfortunate and harmful to all of us.
We need to make sure people aren't afraid to come here,
that they are willing to stand up for things that we believe are sacred rights.
And we have to understand that if we don't do this, then we just lose the rights by default.
So, you know, I speak to everybody over there who is expressing fear.
Yes, you know, we're afraid, too.
There are things to be concerned about, but not addressing them is probably the worst thing we can do.
Emanuel, one of the things we need to do is mention that you're listening to WBAI in New York.
That's right, that's right.
99.5 FM.
In stereo.
In stereo, yes. We have to get it all right.
No matter what.
Yeah, so I guess we should maybe take phone calls.
212-209-2900, are there any other issues on the table that we need to discuss?
We do have a bit of news.
Here in this country there was what we think is good news in the California DVD case.
Seraf, do you understand it at all?
Well, it's a little confusing, but I'll do as best as I can.
There's a project called Livid, and this is one of the good legitimate uses of the DCSS code.
It's a group of people who are attempting to make a piece of software
that will let you play your DVDs on a Linux operating system.
Of course, the DVDCCA, which controls the content scrambling system,
has thus far prevented that system from being licensed to software makers
unless they're writing the software for a mainstream operating system,
Mac OS or Windows or something like that.
So here's this guy, Matthew Pavlovich, who's working on this project,
and he's been blocked from, I guess, distributing DCSS-related code on his website.
Something like that.
Something like that.
By Senator Day O'Connor.
Right.
Herself, who can apparently do such things.
Yeah, you thought there were a few justices. Aren't there more than one nowadays?
There's a bunch, but you know, my understanding...
Thank you very much.
My understanding is that he was not enjoined from actually posting the code.
He was being threatened with a lawsuit by the DVDCCA,
and what he was doing was challenging their jurisdiction.
I believe the court ruled that yes, in fact, they do have jurisdiction.
An appeals court ruled that no, in fact, they don't.
What Senator Day O'Connor did was step in and say,
hold on a second while I look this over
and find out if they, in fact, really do have jurisdiction over him.
And a few days later, she said, yeah, okay, whatever.
I'm not sure if it quite does work.
And now she's thrown out the stay, and he's willing to,
or he's capable now of, I guess, using the code however he pleases.
Well, temporarily, until the case is decided in, I think he's in, where is he?
In Texas, I believe. He's in some state other than California.
What the DVDCCA alleged that Pavlovich did is
they said that he misappropriated its trade secrets
by posting the DCSS program on the Livid website because, and they quote,
the DCSS program embodies, uses, or is a substantial derivation
of confidential proprietary information with the DVDCCA licenses.
Now, this Senator Day O'Connor decision was not about that at all.
It was just about jurisdiction,
and the DVDCCA tried to put all these cases under California law
so they could just, you know, sue everybody in one jurisdiction
and make it much easier for them.
And this is a victory from a legal standpoint
that it doesn't let the emotion picture you should get away with
suing people on the other side of the country
to make it very difficult for them to defend themselves.
It was interesting, too, because listening to various radio reports of this,
it was reported as a defeat for the DVD history.
And this before the John Johansson defeat for the DVD history.
So to the average consumer, it appears that the picture industry
is suffering some legal defeats.
Well, let's hope that trend continues.
Yeah, for the right reasons.
For the right reasons.
Of course, you know, we all believe that people who put things out
to benefit from their artistic work,
but that's not what we've been seeing in this particular case.
We've been seeing all kinds of horrible twisting of that theory.
So I think we're moving in the right direction,
but there's a lot of work left to be done.
Emmanuel, Jim had an interesting article with him.
Yeah, this is pretty much just relating to an apparent crime,
but there's a little hidden paragraph that's of interest.
From last Friday's Times,
a 19-year-old University of Chicago student was arrested in L.A.,
charged with stealing trade secrets from DirecTV,
the nation's leading satellite TV provider.
He was working for a law firm, Jones, Day, Revis, and Pogue.
His name is Igor Serebryany, a sophomore at University of Chicago,
and he copied a number of documents.
He was working for an independent document imaging company.
He posted these on websites devoted to hacking smart cards for satellite TV.
But the interesting paragraph is as follows.
Satellite piracy is a huge underground industry,
estimated at tens of millions of dollars.
Many of the pirate vendors are based in Canada,
where until this year the legal status
of pirating American satellite television was ambiguous.
That's bad news for a number of people
who may get their satellite TV from Canada, would it not be?
No, actually it's the other way around,
because in Canada they issued a ruling
concerning people who are receiving American satellite channels
by pirating cards,
or even by using gray area type of systems
where you have an American address.
They said that that's something that's not legal.
I believe no such case has been ruled on in the United States yet.
So basically if you're receiving an American signal
from a direct TV network over Canada,
you are technically breaking the law.
But what if you're receiving Canadian signal in the U.S.
by using a Canadian address?
Well, like I said, I don't think that's specifically been ruled upon yet.
If you take the logic of various industries,
I'm sure you'll reach the conclusion
that they're going to say that's illegal as well,
just like they say skipping commercials is equivalent to theft.
So it's not much of a reach for them to reach that conclusion.
It's just not very many people in the United States
are actually going to the effort of trying to receive Canadian signals,
and I'm just one of those rare people that are doing that.
Okay.
But that is a very interesting case.
And the problem I have with that,
this guy took documents that he had access to
inside of his job, if I understand correctly,
and used proprietary knowledge or access to this information.
It's not the same thing as coming across the information someplace
or spreading the knowledge itself.
Right.
For instance, if somebody were to send us a whole lot of information
on how a direct TV works and how their system can be defeated,
obviously we would print that information
because we print a hacker magazine,
and we would not hesitate to do something like that,
and that's true of just about any system.
If they came after us
and charged us with the kind of thing they're charging this guy with,
I think it would be a very different story
because you're not talking about accessing documents
that you really shouldn't be accessing.
You're talking about things that have been given to you
by an anonymous source.
So it's a different type of a thing.
And isn't there some irony in this case as well?
Wasn't Direct TV or its parent company
accused of sharing or facilitating the sharing of information
on how its competitor's satellite TV system could be cracked?
That I have not heard.
Well, they only have one competitor,
an obstetrics network,
and they've been trying to merge with them,
so I don't quite know where that stands.
Are you ready to take some calls, Emanuel?
Yes, I think we should.
Again, I'm sorry.
I don't know how badly the noise is.
These people are going nuts moving the chairs around.
I've been watching them,
and they keep cleaning the same tables,
these mall guards.
They keep cleaning tables
that nobody has been sitting at for an hour.
They come by every five minutes
and wipe it off and move the chairs around.
It's like they're some kind of robotic creatures or something.
Maybe they're trying to give you a hint.
Maybe they're undercover federal agents.
Well, I don't know what they're trying to do.
They'd get a much better signal
if they listened to the radio,
but I don't know.
Maybe you should buy a burger.
Well, I did buy a sandwich a while ago,
but apparently I have to buy something else now.
All right.
By the way, do either of you know a Jeff Stormbringer?
Yeah, I know a Stormbringer.
Yeah, we do.
We both do.
Okay.
Evidently, he's on one of the lines.
We don't know which one.
Okay, well, I hope we get him.
Okay.
He's a good guy.
We've talked to him over the years.
He had an unfortunate run-in with the law, I believe.
Yes, yes.
And hopefully he'll be free sometime soon.
All right.
Let's see if we can't get him.
Hello.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Hello.
Hello.
Who's this?
My name's Jeff.
Who's this?
Jeff, this is Stormbringer.
Okay.
We lucked out.
Got him on the first try.
All righty.
Emmanuel, how are you doing?
Stormbringer, this is Bernie S.
How you doing, Stormbringer?
I'm doing all right.
You guys getting my mail?
Yes.
I got a letter from you,
and I think, Bernie, did you get a letter?
Yes.
It says,
Happy New Year,
although it's probably not as happy
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Stormbringer, tell us where you are.
I'm in federal prison right now.
I'm in here on non-computer-related,
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It started over my web server.
How so?
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that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
I got a letter from the local PD
that said,
Hey, Stormbringer,
Or can we reverse that trend?
Join me, Ken Gale and Larry Gonnick for conversation and humor on the global environment.
Tune in to 99.5 WBAI-FM New York on Tuesday, January 14th at 11 a.m.