The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself off shavings, now I can't make a call.
And he asked much what, but it's just looks and words.
For me it bounces back and back to words.
I hope that's understood, but let me know.
Hi there, can anyone hear me?
Yes sir, we can hear you.
Okay, that's just great.
There you are.
What happened before?
I was saying I was introing the show and I heard you talk instead.
What happened there?
I didn't hear you intro.
Oh, well.
Something happened.
You must have thrown the wrong switch.
Anyway, this is Emmanuel.
I'm in Berlin over here in Germany where it's 2 in the morning.
The end of our day.
You guys are just beginning your day over at WBAI New York where it's 8 o'clock.
I'm over here for the Chaos Communications Congress and Isaac is back there in the studio.
So is Laszlo.
Hi Laszlo.
Hi.
I might add that watching Isaac run aboard is pure comedy.
Yes, I'm sure.
I wish I could be there for this.
But of course if I was there, this would never be happening.
But there you go.
Tell us what happens at your six hours ahead.
We're six hours ahead here, yeah.
I know it's going to happen in six hours and you don't like it very much because it's kind of...
It's snowing very hard right here in Berlin and it's just a very nice place.
I've been here many times.
I've been traveling all over actually.
I got here last Thursday, not here so much, but in Frankfurt.
I journeyed up to Amsterdam, hung out there for a couple of days and then went up to Denmark
where I stayed until today and then took a train down to here which is where I am now.
Where's here?
I'm always here actually.
Berlin.
You're in Berlin.
Yes, I'm in Berlin.
We're going to have communications.
Congress starts tomorrow.
Now which half of the former Berlin are you in?
I think I'm in...
Well, it's very far from the train station.
I took a cab to this hotel I'm staying in.
I think it's in the eastern part just based on the architecture.
I would say it's probably in the eastern part.
So there's no residual of the wall left at all?
No.
But it's funny because the street I'm on is named...
It's Wallstrauss.
I think it was named after the wall.
The street might actually be where the wall was for all I know.
I'm going to try to find out about that.
Now you took a train to where you are now?
I've taken trains everywhere.
Let me tell you something about trains in Europe.
They rock.
There are so many things in Europe that just put us to shame.
And trains are one of them.
It's like they have an intelligence of their own.
The whole system, the way it works, the way it interacts with distant cities,
and the way every train shows up exactly when it's supposed to
and leaves exactly when it's supposed to.
It's uncanny.
That's German precision.
You don't need a language to understand any of this.
In fact, I think Europeans have advanced a lot more because they're multilingual.
There are so many different languages that it's impossible to simply say it in all different languages,
so they have to have a pictorial way of expressing themselves.
I think that works very well, especially in something like a train station.
You can go to any train station anywhere in Europe and it works exactly the same way.
The trains run pretty much on schedule and get you exactly where you're supposed to go.
There's no place you can't get in Europe by train.
So I've had no trouble at all getting around.
It's extremely comfortable.
You can't tell when the trains are moving.
They're very smooth.
They're very fast.
Did you ride the train?
Because I took a train from Amsterdam to Paris,
and the train had computer readouts about how fast you're going,
and when you approach the doors to go from one train to the other,
it opens like the Star Trek doors.
Yeah. The train I was just on, in fact, is called the ICE train.
Yeah, that one. I rode that one.
It leans and it turns.
It looks like something from outer space.
It's awesome.
InterCity Express.
It makes that Acela thing from Amtrak look like a joke
because they've just been doing it so much better for so much longer.
But actually, you get a program.
When you go on a train ride, you get a little program that goes with it
to describe your trip.
There are some things here that I think pretty much tell you the differences
in the way they travel and the way we travel in trains.
Let me just read you a few of the little things here.
At seat service with snacks, drinks, and daily newspapers by the service crew,
blah, blah, blah.
Three radio and three ICE programs with classical music, pop music,
and fairy tales are available from all seats with headphones.
There's a car telephone in car 25.
It's always in car 25.
Phone cards can be bought from the service crew.
Screens for the ICE video program at all seats in cars 26 and 27.
Train manager's compartment, electronic timetable information desk,
disabled toilet, and baby's changing table in car 25.
I used that toilet, and it wasn't disabled,
which is what they're talking about there.
Sockets for laptops at the tables in the face-to-face seating area.
Space for wheelchairs and parent and child compartment
with children's play area in car 24.
Now, get this.
You'll love this one.
Cars 21, 24, 26, and 27 are equipped with repeaters
for improved mobile phone reception.
This is little GSM repeaters on the actual train cars,
so you're never out of service.
It's pretty unbelievable.
Please do not use mobile phones in the quiet zones in cars 22 and 27.
And finally, please keep your dog on the lead while on the train.
You can do anything you want on those trains.
That's what I love.
There's, like, people smoking.
There's, like, parties going on.
You can bring dogs on the train.
Dogs on subways.
Dogs on trains.
Dogs on trams.
Dogs on buses.
And the thing is, the dogs are well-behaved.
They don't act like American dogs.
They act like European dogs.
They're completely quiet and calm.
This is not just a human thing.
It extends to all species.
Yeah, that's what surprised me in France,
is you would go to restaurants, very nice restaurants,
and people would just stroll in with their dogs,
and they would just sit under their table.
I was sitting on the train today down from Copenhagen.
I was sitting next to a guy, and I realized after about 20 minutes
that he had a dog inside his briefcase.
Not his briefcase, but a little pouch that he was holding,
a little tiny dog.
I just saw, like, the eyes coming out.
It was rather scary, actually,
but everyone seems to have one of those things.
On the subject of GSM, again, that's something else that they put us to shame on,
GSM being the mobile phone network that is predominantly in use in Europe
and somewhat in use in the United States.
I was able to borrow one of the world phones, which is made by Ericsson,
and that allows you to use GSM companies both in the United States
and over here in Europe.
They're different frequencies.
In the United States, we use, I believe it's 1,800 megahertz.
I'm sorry, it's 1,900 megahertz we use.
They use 1,800 megahertz in Europe, and they also use 900 megahertz in Europe.
Now, the world phone allows you to get 900 megahertz and 1,800 megahertz,
so you're able to get the United States and part of Europe.
Now, when I first turned on the phone, I got a company in Germany called DD1,
and then I got a company called DD2.
So I got two companies.
I was able to switch from one company to another.
In every country I've been in, there have been two companies
that I can switch back and forth.
Now, if I had a tri-band phone, I would have a choice of four companies,
two on 900 megahertz, two on 1,800 megahertz.
In the United States, we only have 1,900 megahertz,
and by some kind of weird law, we only have one company.
Competition is something that we seem to have less and less of,
and it's being shown how much better the system is over here
when you can choose from one company and make decisions that way.
Another problem I've had is the fact that every time I make a phone call on this system,
I'm being charged $2.50 a minute by the company back in the United States.
So if I was to call somebody a foot away from me on this phone,
the company in the United States, which is Voice Dream,
would be making $2.50 a minute for no reason at all
because my call isn't even going to the United States.
That's just the way that is.
They are processing your accounting information.
Yes, they're doing that, but do you really think that that costs $2.50 a minute?
Oh, it's a very expensive process.
It's a complete ripoff and insanity, and it keeps people from using the system.
I mean, it's the coolest thing in the world for me to be on a train
going to different countries and being able to get phone calls from my friends
on my same phone number.
Meanwhile, if you go on Amtrak from here to Philly, your phone would be bugging.
That's right, exactly.
It's a great system. GSM is an amazing system.
Unfortunately, like almost everything else we get our hands on,
including that and DVD and God knows what else,
it's just being destroyed due to greed.
Now, speaking of DVDs, I've been doing some interesting research on the Web,
and there are a couple of developments that you guys might find interesting.
Have you heard about something called DFAST?
DFAST?
D-F-A-S-T.
No.
No one's heard of that, huh?
Enlighten me.
Okay.
This comes from a Kevin Paulson article that came out on the 22nd of December.
And for those of you who were with us during the ECSS lawsuit over the summer,
well, that might be just the beginning.
As we pretty much said,
this is something that is going to repeat itself many, many times over
in lots of different arenas.
Well, now you can see just where it's going to go next.
The cable television industry is moving ahead with a controversial plan
to implement a copy protection scheme that will allow movie studios
and cable providers to control what viewers are able to record
off future digital cable TV networks.
Makers of televisions, video recorders, and interactive set-top boxes
who want their equipment to be compatible with the new digital cable systems
will be forced to implement the patented Dynamic Feedback Arrangement
Scrambling Technique, known as DFAST,
under a 42-page licensing agreement filed with the FCC last week
by cable television laboratories, the industry's research and development arm,
with support from the National Cable Television Association.
DFAST-compliant devices would simply refuse to record digital TV broadcasts
that are electronically marked Copy Never
or to make a single archive copy of a program
bearing the more permissive Copy Once mark.
The technology may ultimately result in jarring changes
to the average American's viewing habits
which would, of course, require them to invest in new DFAST-compliant hardware
if they wish to enjoy the benefits of digital cable.
So this is doomed to failure.
Well, you know, I'd like to say that,
but this is something that they're really cramming down our throats
like they crammed the whole CSS thing.
So we're not going to be able to record...
This is going to... I won't be able to record certain shows now.
That's right. If they determine that they don't want you to record it,
then you won't be able to record it.
It will be technically impossible.
Unless another John Johansson comes along
and figures out how to get around it.
Well, that's inevitable.
Then we have another trial and go through the whole rigmarole again.
But basically, how everybody rejected DivX,
the original DivX a couple of years ago,
this is just a bigger version of it.
See, but, I mean,
they also tried to shove digital televisions down our throat
and said everybody has to upgrade and buy new TVs
and all this and nobody is doing it.
Which is why I'm saying it's doomed to failure.
It still is on the books that as of 2005
all the analog TV stations will be off the air.
So I don't know how they're going to get around that.
They're now talking about giving away free set-top converters.
Because, I mean, there's a lot of people
that either can't afford it or whatever,
and they're going to lose a lot of viewers,
which is going to lose advertisers.
Well, now is the time to reject this kind of thing
because once it's implemented,
it's very hard to turn the clock back.
Now, also on the subject of DVDs,
this also happened in the last week.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission
advised consumers to exercise caution
when purchasing a DVD video player
because of the restrictions that limit their ability to play imported DVDs.
These restrictions are artificially imposed
by a group of multinational film entertainment companies.
OK, wait a second. Who wrote this article?
This is not an article.
This is something from an Australian...
Let me just get the...
I've got to get the exact...
Because I'm hearing a seven-word string
of artificially imposed by a multinational evil corporation,
and that raises a few red flags in my mind.
OK, we can get into your red flags in a few minutes.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission,
I don't have...
For one thing, I don't have net access right now,
so I can't give you exactly who comprises these people,
but they are a well-respected organization
that advises on consumer issues,
and what they're doing right now is advising people
to exercise caution when buying DVDs
for reasons we already know.
But the way they describe it,
the ACC is concerned that many purchases of DVD players in films
are still in the dark
about their inability to play imported DVD players
purchased in Australia.
The ACCC is currently investigating
whether Australian consumers are paying higher prices for DVDs
because of the ability of copyright owners,
such as film companies, to prevent competition
by restricting imports from countries
where the same authorized video titles are sold more cheaply.
The ACCC is aware that manufacturers of DVD players
around the world are required
by the DVD Copy Control Association in California
to incorporate the Regional Playback Control System.
The RPC system effectively divides the world into six regions
for the purposes of DVD distribution
and employs digital encryption
to prevent the DVD produced from one region
from being played on a DVD player manufactured for another region.
Now, do you guys know what the regions are?
Have you ever actually looked at this?
Yeah, there's more than six, actually.
There's a seventh region,
like on airlines and cruise ships and things like that.
There's also an eighth that is some obscure thing like that.
Antarctica.
Yeah, Antarctica.
Antarctica's in there.
Well, I didn't know about that.
You're in Region 2 there.
Do you know what the existing six are?
Yes.
The U.S. is Region 1.
Europe and Australia, I believe, is Region 2.
Okay, you're wrong right away, so you might as well stop now.
Okay.
Well, three is South America, something else.
China's its own six.
Okay, just stop now.
All right.
The United States and Canada are currently in Region 1.
Region 2 is Europe, South Africa, and Japan.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Region 3 is Southeast Asia.
Region 4 is Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific, Latin, and South America.
Right.
Region 5 is Africa, Russian Federation, and Eastern Europe.
And Region 6 is China.
Right.
And as these folks say,
it is clear that there is no geographic logic to these regional divisions.
What this means in practical terms for Australian consumers
is that only DVDs purchased in Australia can be effectively played
on a DVD player purchased in Australia.
If consumers choose to purchase a DVD player overseas,
they may not be able to play DVDs purchased in Australia in their machines.
Similarly, a DVD player purchased in Australia
will generally not be able to play DVDs purchased overseas
unless the disc is purchased in another Region 4 country, such as New Zealand.
Basically, their conclusion is
there will likely be a large number of disappointed consumers
who, because of this system, cannot make use of their overseas purchases.
It's something that I saw a lot of going around various places in Europe.
It's a bigger issue here because, obviously,
most of the DVDs coming out are Region 1 DVDs.
It's very simple to get a non-region encoded DVD player.
In fact, most of them that seem to be sold in many countries
don't have any region attached to them.
It's definitely an issue that is being explored a lot more here in Europe
than in the United States,
but I think it's also going to become an issue in the United States as well.
One concern that a lot of people seem to be having
is that foreign films, for instance,
just simply won't be released in the United States.
There will be no way to see them.
Whereas before it was possible to do this,
you could get a pal playing VCR, for instance.
Now you'll have to import some other expensive piece of machinery,
which is redundant to the one you already have,
and if it's from a different region other than Europe,
you'll have to get two of them.
You'll have seven DVD players lined up on top of each other
to play something from all parts of the world.
That stimulates the economy, Emanuel.
Yeah, for some people, maybe.
It's not an issue of stimulation.
It's a matter of maintaining the status quo.
Like you said, you're going to have to buy a PAL VCR
or a PAL converter or some sort of hardware
to be able to play a European-sourced piece of video.
With DVD, that disappears.
That was not an artificial...
That was an issue of standards,
but the industry has grown around that.
That was completely artificial.
Would you intend to tell the industry to just,
well, guys, sorry, you're going to have to rearrange
all your release dates and the whole nine yards?
Well, it really is the consumer that decides in the end.
I don't think it's something that...
Quite right.
They're not going to just be able to have the right
to do this kind of thing
and come out with all these different versions
and require people to buy things many, many times over
without some kind of a fight.
I think a lot of people are very upset
at the way this is turning out
because they weren't aware when this technology was introduced
that it was going to be done this way.
It's making people very frustrated and very upset.
And it's, again, the same thing we're going to be seeing
in other forms of technology in the future as well,
basically different releases in different parts of the world
at different times designed for maximum profitability.
And it can really hurt people who travel,
hurt people who need to copy things for personal use.
Fair use basically is going right out the window,
as we've said many times.
How many DVD players and laptops for travelers
if they can't buy DVDs and watch them?
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I saw DVDs here that are not on sale
anywhere in the United States and probably never will be.
What am I supposed to do?
You just close your eyes.
You lose.
Come back to the United States, you defector.
Imagine we had this way of dealing with books
where basically, okay, Stephen King has come out with a book,
but it's only come out in the United States.
You can't read it in England.
You're not allowed to yet because it hasn't come out in England yet.
Well, with e-books, maybe we'll just do that.
Okay, e-books will make this all possible.
Yes, definitely.
But again, we'll look back.
I mean, the releases of movies overseas at different times
than releases here in the States is not unprecedented.
It's how things happen now.
Right, but if you could get your hands on a videocassette
or something that was already released in another country,
more power to you.
You could do that.
Right.
It was not a big deal.
Well, now it's the same thing with the DVD.
If you can manage to find a thing that's original.
There are now seven or eight different regions
that are making laws saying it's illegal for you to do this.
Ah, where, though?
There are some nations that are saying
that you can't sell a DVD player with this kind of restriction.
Right, and it looks like Australia is going to be one of them pretty soon.
New Zealand already is.
Once countries start to reject this kind of a thing,
that's when you might start seeing some changes.
So it's all the pressure that is put upon the market,
and I think we're starting to see a backlash.
You know, Emmanuel, since you're not here,
Isaac knew he was going to kind of be running the board here at WBAI,
and he came in wearing his I Love John Ashcroft T-shirt.
I don't own a T-shirt, sir.
I'm so happy to know that.
I don't own a T-shirt, you hippie-looking.
He's actually wearing a tie and a corporate logo on his shirt.
Well, I came from a meeting earlier, so that's how it works.
You know, I went to an informal 2600 meeting early today in Copenhagen.
Were you treated like a rock star?
Well, no, I don't really think they treat people like rock stars up there,
even if they are rock stars.
But don't they know?
Denmark is a really interesting place
where everybody is pretty much treated equally,
no matter who you are, whether you're the prime minister
or some person who doesn't have a penny to his name.
Everybody is pretty much treated with the same amount of respect.
Everyone is expected to follow the same rules.
They're very big on rules.
It's kind of funny sometimes.
You notice it mostly at intersections,
where there will be a little red man for the Don't Walk sign,
and there won't be a car for miles,
but all these people are just standing there like statues waiting for it to turn green.
And when it turns green,
everybody reanimates themselves and moves across the street.
That kind of thing is pretty common.
It's just part of their culture.
But I found out a few things.
I found out that if you start walking across the street yourself,
others will follow.
So I figured, give me a week in Denmark,
and I can corrupt the society pretty easily.
Yeah, but see, you're basing things on New York mentality.
I mean, when you travel to other parts of the United States,
people will just stand there on the corner like that as well.
In New York, signs are merely a suggestion.
Well, in most parts of the United States,
they don't have little flashing red and white guys at crosswalks anyway.
What is a crosswalk?
You drive your SUV.
Exactly.
Well, I also went to another part of Copenhagen known as Christiania,
which is a very interesting place.
This is like an anarchist commune.
I don't know if that's really a fair way to describe it,
but basically a bunch of people took over military barracks years ago,
and they just settled in them.
And they've developed this whole community with places to live, stores,
all kinds of things.
And because of the Danish way of life,
it's thought that it would be wrong to simply evict these people
and throw them out.
So they've managed to make a thriving community of their own
where they refuse to pay any taxes.
They just kind of do their own thing.
They live peacefully amongst themselves.
And it's like going into a completely different world
when you walk down their streets.
In the United States, something like that would be bombed instantly by the authorities.
It was in Philadelphia.
They were called the MOVE organization.
Exactly.
That's what happened there.
Here, it simply was amazing to walk down there and see all this.
Very inspiring.
And I think it's something that people need to do.
They need to just take a stand and start their own communities
because that's what life is, is starting communities.
It's strange that in a place that is so into following the rules
that you would see such a big step away from that.
And when people do step away from following the rules,
everybody else in society says,
well, we have to respect that, which I think is rather admirable.
So Denmark is quite an interesting place.
I'm very happy I went up there just for a couple of days to see the place.
But I got a lot out of it, and I recommend it to others.
And it's really cool to find a bunch of hackers up there too.
Oh, there's hackers everywhere.
Right now you're in Germany.
It was cool because I just went to their website, which is www.2600.dk,
and all of a sudden there's all these Danish hackers up there
that pretty much are into the same things that hackers all over the world are into.
They get together in a cafe once a month
and hang out and talk about the things we talk about at Citicorp Center,
and they get stared at by people just like we get stared at by people.
Although in Denmark, people stare at you more if you are unusual.
Everyone was staring at me, and I realized that nobody has long hair up there,
unless they're female, obviously.
So when you're unusual, people just stare at you,
and it's not considered impolite for them to do that.
So I had to get used to that as well.
Now what did you do?
Now they had this meeting.
You went and you sat down.
Did you go around the thing and say,
My name is Bob Smith and I am a hacker?
No, it was surprisingly informal, just like it was anywhere else, really.
Right, but did you walk in and say,
What's up, people? I am your leader.
Well, you see, it's not really the way it works.
There's no such thing as leaders in our society either.
Basically, I just said, Hey, I'm coming into town.
Would anybody be around? Let's meet up.
And we did.
And it worked very well.
It worked very well.
But right now you're in Germany,
and you're going to head down to the Chaos Computer Congress.
Yes, there's going to be about 1,000 hackers that show up there.
That's a big deal.
That's a very big deal.
Do you play spot the Fed at that one?
I hope not. I really hope not.
I think this is about as far away from DEF CON as you could possibly get.
Thank God for that.
So what are you expecting at CCC?
I'm expecting to learn a lot, actually,
from a lot of people who have been active in the hacker world
for longer than any of us have.
This is the 17th Chaos Communication Congress.
Seventeen.
I mean, that's incredible.
That's longer than any conference that's been going on that I know of.
And I've never been to one of their conferences before,
so I'd like to learn exactly what the Germans do as far as hacking.
I know it's a lot more political for them,
but they also have a lot of people from all different backgrounds,
from all over Europe, that are involved in this.
We're going to be showing the film.
Freedom Downtime will be shown tomorrow night at the Congress.
We also showed that in Amsterdam, and that went over pretty well.
One thing I've noticed with European crowds
is that they are shocked by the way our prisoners are treated,
the way our hackers are treated in prison,
and that's part of what we talk about in Freedom Downtime.
I've had long discussions about the whole American culture
We've emphasized putting people in prison so much over the past few years
and how it's become such an industry,
how we have more than 2 million people in prison,
more than 6 million people in some form of probation or house arrest
or something like that, and their minds are boggled by this.
They just cannot conceive of what exactly we are doing,
and it's a frightening thing.
It's frightening for me.
It's frightening for them to see what's happening,
and I really have to wonder.
We see a lot of this in the hacker community.
We see a lot of bad things happening
and people winding up in prison for relatively minor offenses,
but it's being duplicated all throughout and not just in our culture,
so it's pretty sobering.
Hopefully we can show something to them as well
and take something back to the United States from Germany
and hopefully share information in the future as well.
Now, where did you show that?
You showed Freedom Downtime in Amsterdam?
Yeah, I showed that in Amsterdam.
To who?
Just to a bunch of Dutch hackers.
That was actually in someone's house,
so we only were able to fit about 35, 40 people in.
It was a big room,
but it was pretty good to show it to a foreign crowd for once.
That's cool.
This is the final cut, finally, which is down to two hours,
and that's it.
There's no more editing.
Down to two hours.
Yeah.
Gives you an idea, people.
How long was that one that showed it at H2K?
That was two hours, 20 minutes, so we cut quite a bit from it.
Did I get cut out?
No.
In fact, I think we've added stuff of you.
Excellent.
There you go.
He didn't want us to put it in.
We put it in.
Oh, that scene.
Thanks.
Yeah, it pays off well amongst the crowds.
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what the hell I said.
Yeah.
Anyway, so it's been an active week,
both for me and for people back in New York.
I simply got to tell you guys,
I go away for one week and all hell breaks loose.
I was in Amsterdam when things started to happen with Pacifica and WBAI,
and let me tell you something.
Everybody, everybody here knows about WBAI,
and they know about the things that are happening with Pacifica.
I've had people come up to me and say,
what is going on with your radio station?
Before I would know about it.
That's how much people are following the situation.
Not people that I don't know already.
It hasn't quite gotten to that stage yet,
but people that I know come up to me and say,
have you heard what's happening to your radio station?
So it's interesting how the Internet has completely revolutionized
the way that a crisis situation like this comes about.
People are listening to the radio station over the Internet.
They're reading the webpages about the radio station over the Internet.
They're communicating with themselves.
They're telling more people,
and when things started to happen on, I guess it was Saturday.
I've lost track of what date is which here,
but it was at some point, I was in Amsterdam,
and it was the most incredible thing because the house I was staying in
had a wireless LAN,
so you didn't have to plug into the wall to be connected to the Internet,
and I had a laptop, which had a battery,
so I didn't have to plug it into the wall for power.
I was able to walk up and down five flights of steps in the house
listening to WBAI.
This is the future.
There's no question about this.
This is the future of radio,
walking around with a computer in a foreign city,
being able to listen to your favorite radio station,
and I was able to hear live what was going on,
and some of it was really troubling to hear,
and I was also able to read the latest on the Web
and pass this information back and forth to people throughout the world,
and again, everybody was transfixed over there.
At one point, we plugged the laptop into a sound system
and had it booming throughout speakers in the house,
and this is a scene that I think is being repeated throughout the world.
WBAI has gone so much more,
to be so much more than just a 50,000-watt radio station
in the middle of New York City,
which is a pretty admirable thing to be right in and of itself,
but WBAI is also something that people throughout the world look at and admire,
so that's why I was particularly troubled by the things
that were happening over the past few days.
The interesting thing is, if I had heard the outcome,
which in case people who don't know what's going on,
I'm sure since we have a lot of people from around the world
that are listening and only listen to this show,
maybe I should quickly update you,
and of course we'll take some phone calls later
if people have any questions
or if anybody from the radio station is interested in giving us information
that we don't already have,
but what happened was, in a rather sudden, strange move,
the general manager who had been notified that she was being fired
was replaced literally at midnight, in the middle of the night,
I think on the weekend,
and replaced by our former talkback host,
someone who I think really has a good sense of what the station is all about,
has been around for a while, is very popular with people,
and again, if I had heard that outcome,
if I had heard that this was the person selected by the station
to replace our general manager,
that would have been something that would have been great.
I would have had no problem with that.
I would have looked forward to working with this person
and achieving things.
Unfortunately, that's not really how it happened,
and if you were listening to the station, you know this.
The new person was not selected by the radio station.
The new person was appointed by Pacifica,
which operates out of a different city,
without any kind of consultation with the local board.
Then after an announcement that there was not going to be
any kind of change to the radio station,
everything was going to go on business as usual,
within hours, people were being threatened with arrest
if they showed up at the radio station,
including our program director,
who has been at the radio station for 20 years,
and our former general manager,
who also had been at the radio station for around 20 years,
being threatened with arrest for daring to show up at the radio station.
I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I just find to be bizarre
and very, very troubling,
and we were listening to this in Amsterdam,
as it was unfolding, with our mouths open.
I'm believing that this kind of thing could be happening to our radio station.
I've talked to a number of people over the past couple of days,
and the sense I get is just one of shock,
one of outrage,
one of kind of like being hit over the head
and not knowing what to do about it yet.
We've had demonstrations outside the radio station every day.
There's a meeting tomorrow that everybody should know about,
and if you're in New York City, I strongly urge you to go to this meeting
where everybody's going to be at, listeners, producers.
If I was in New York, believe me, I would be there,
and I'm trying to get back as quickly as I can so I can take part in this.
It's at 101 6th Avenue.
That's near Canal Street at 6.30 p.m.,
101 6th Avenue near Canal Street, 6.30 p.m.
There is a phone number,
which you should also engrave on your arm
so that you always know what's going on,
718-707-7189
for the latest information on what's happening with the listener groups,
with the producers.
What's the number again?
718-707-7189.
There is a website, www.savepacifica.net.
There's an e-mail address, savewbai.hotmail.com.
If you e-mail that address, you'll get put on a mailing list,
and then you'll get all kinds of information.
I don't want to go on too long about this,
because, again, I'm in Germany,
so I'm not privy to exactly what's going on.
You guys can see more than what I see.
I've heard all kinds of disturbing things today
about how there's security guards in the station now,
how people are being questioned when they come into the place,
how the mood of the station has just completely gone down the toilet.
This is not WBAI.
This is not what we are about.
And the producers of WBAI, the listeners of WBAI,
will certainly fight to protect the radio station
that we've come to know and love over the last 40 years.
There is no question in my mind about that.
This is something that is very important to us.
And even though I know that the future of broadcasting
is what I saw this week,
walking up and down the stairs with a computer,
listening to it over the Internet,
that might be the future of broadcasting,
but that's no reason to give up on what we have now,
which is a 50,000-watt radio station in New York City.
We would be fools to say,
yeah, okay, we're going to go into the new technology
and just give up on the old.
No, it doesn't work that way.
For the same reason, when I'm in Europe,
I see a lot here that they do so much better than we do.
I hear a lot of stupid things coming out of America
that make me angry and make me almost ashamed.
But for me to leave and come over here instead
and give up on America would be wrong.
I'd much rather go back there and help fix things.
For the same reason, that's why we cannot give up on WBAI
and just hand it over and give up the fight.
The fight is ongoing.
The radio station is part of the listeners.
The listeners have poured their heart and soul into this.
And I was talking to our receptionist earlier today
who said that he's gotten more phone calls today
from people canceling their subscriptions
than he ever got in a month.
In the many, many years he's worked here,
that says something.
That says listeners are extremely upset
and frustrated by what's been happening
over the past few days.
But I want to make sure people use this frustration
in a positive way.
Because if people just simply cancel their subscriptions
and walk away from the radio station,
I guarantee you this place will not be around
longer than a few more months.
There is no question in my mind about that.
What you have to do is take that energy
and use it for something positive.
Come to the meeting tomorrow, for one thing.
That's one way of using that energy
and helping to make change.
Because the one thing that will make change
is public pressure.
That works anywhere.
That works in any dictatorship.
That works in any former Iron Curtain country
that gets overthrown.
That works throughout the world.
Public pressure is what got Bernie S. released.
It's the most important thing that you can possibly apply.
So again, the meeting is tomorrow, 101 6th Avenue.
It's near Canal Street.
6.30 p.m.
Lots and lots of people will be there.
And I think we should open it up to the listeners
at 212-209-2900.
And particularly if there are people out there
that have more information about the situation
at the radio station
or anyone who has been banned from the radio station itself,
you are welcome on the airwaves during Off the Hook
to tell us your side of the story
so people know what's going on.
Because we just cannot tolerate speech being stifled in any sense.
And that goes for all aspects of life.
And I think we'd be very hypocritical
if we didn't stand up for that.
And I hope everybody on the station is united in this.
It's got nothing to do with personalities.
Again, I'm not going to stand out here
and say who would make a better general manager
or program director or whatever.
That's not the issue.
Because at radio stations,
and Laszlo, I'm sure you know this more than anybody,
radio stations, people get fired.
People get replaced.
People get reassigned.
That's normal.
But for people who have been hard-working members of a station
for two decades to be told that they'll be arrested
if they come in the next day, that's just sick.
That's something that we need to fight.
This is where I'm going to have to disagree with you, Emanuel,
because you're saying, you know, this is so unbelievable
what's going on here.
And I've talked to other people,
and they're like, oh, this is unbelievable.
Dude, I've seen this before.
I've seen this before at corporate-owned radio stations.
You have a family of people
that have been working great with each other.
Maybe it's three months.
Maybe it's three years.
And some guys make some decisions
and come in and show everybody the door,
and there's armed guards there,
and you're told to grab your stuff,
and they change the locks, and you get out.
That's corporate radio.
I've seen it happen.
I've seen people crying outside the studio
or outside the radio station,
and so then they just kick you out.
I've seen this before at corporate stations,
and what's going on here sickens me,
but it's obviously corporate behavior.
It's corporate behavior,
but this is not a corporate radio station.
This is a listener radio station,
and that's the difference.
To see this kind of corporate thing going on
at a listener-run station
is something that I think is mind-boggling.
It's something that we simply can't just stand by and watch.
And the listeners of the station
are the shareholders in this company, if you will,
and they should do what they can
to overthrow the president as the shareholders.
If everybody that listens to the station
and helps out with it is donating
and is part of the radio station,
then they have every right to have their voice heard.
Right, and we can't survive without listeners,
and that's a very important fact to make known.
And the station has been doing very well.
We have, I believe, a $70,000 surplus,
which I know in the commercial radio world would be nothing,
but believe me, it's a lot to us,
considering we were in a $200,000 hole before.
We were able to crawl out of that.
We had our most successful fall fundraiser ever.
This station has been doing really good.
I think the sound of the station has been good.
For people to just come in and dictate terms,
move in security guards,
and just turn the overall mood of the place
completely upside down,
that's something that has to be answered.
Now, there have been rallies outside the station
on a daily basis.
I don't have information on when the next one of those will be.
I think at that phone number, again, 718-707-7189,
they have information about that.
So people can learn more about it that way.
Also, check the webpage at safepacifica.net,
and we'll try to have more information on 2600.com as we get it.
I think we have some phone calls coming in.
I'm sure we do.
There are plenty of phone calls.
All right, so let's go to the phones
and see if people can add anything to this.
Yeah, you're on the air.
Good evening.
I don't have anything to really add,
but I would make this suggestion
that instead of canceling subscriptions,
people would go to their local small claims court
and file a claim for fraud or however you might want to word it,
concerning the fact that you paid for a certain type of service
and all of a sudden it's been changed.
This will work.
It's about money.
The whole purpose of this takeover is, as he said,
this is corporate, this is a corporate move,
and it's about destabilizing and eventually destroying WPAI
so it can be sold, hit them where it hurts now, at the money level.
Another comment I would make is this,
is that remember that Utreast Lead here in Harlem,
we remember Utreast Lead as the person
who single-handedly caused all the street vendors
on 125th Street to be arrested one day.
Okay, I wasn't aware of that.
Ah, ah, because I listened to Utreast this morning.
I waited all weekend to hear what she had to say,
and for one hour she said absolutely nothing.
She never once gave any facts.
All she did was go, ha, ha, ha, ha.
You people are not acting properly.
You know what I'm saying?
So there's something funny going on, as you all said.
And by the way, Emanuel, you were the one who noticed it last week
when I was listening to the show.
You said, hey, they changed the locks.
Yeah, there was some ominous foreshadowing there.
And you said, they can't just change the locks and lock us out, can they?
Yes, they did.
All right, take care.
Thanks for the call.
You know, it's interesting, guys.
When I was in Amsterdam, and this was unfolding,
I was reminded of this film I saw years ago.
It was called Moonlighting.
It's about these Polish workers that come to England to work illegally
during the whole Solidarity uprising.
And one of the Polish workers is played surprisingly well by Jeremy Irons.
And the story centers around them working illegally in this strange city of London,
while in the background you see on TV sets the army moving in,
the tanks moving in, in Warsaw and Gdansk and places like that,
and basically crushing Solidarity.
And just the feeling that they were getting, being in a faraway place,
watching something that they value being destroyed,
very similar to the feeling that I was getting in Amsterdam,
listening to what was happening over the radio.
It was scary.
It really was scary.
When you think of something equivalent to a coup in a faraway land
happening to a radio station, you realize that that place means a lot to you.
It's not just a place where you work.
It's a place where people put their lives into.
And I know a lot of listeners feel the same way.
So while people will react in different ways,
I think the important thing, the thing everybody should always keep in mind,
is what is best for the station.
Yeah, we can say hit them where it hurts the most.
We can say this will cripple them.
But keep in mind that a crippling blow to the radio station
is a crippling blow to the radio station that you value.
And that's something that I think we have to keep in mind.
Yes, we want to defeat whatever evil power we define.
But at the same time, we want to save the radio stations.
Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face or whatever the saying is.
Okay, next call.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I'm just wondering, when you send a check,
I usually send a check to Pacifica, WBAI Pacifica.
Can I just write a check to WBAI and Pacifica won't get any part of that?
I don't think so.
Again, I'm not an expert on exactly how the inner workings of Pacifica work,
but I believe everything that gets sent to WBAI has to go through Pacifica,
if I understand it correctly.
If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
Well, who would know that for sure?
Well, the general manager would certainly know that.
Can I talk to him tomorrow?
Her. It's the chief's lead.
Who's managing now?
Well, the chief's lead is the interim manager right now,
who's appointed by Pacifica.
So what you should do is call the radio station tomorrow at the office number,
which is 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-8-100.
Yeah.
And get that information that way.
Will I get a personal or will I get a regular?
If you call during business hours, you should get our human receptionist, Fred.
Keep in mind, he's getting a lot of calls.
Don't take it out on Fred.
He's got nothing to do with it.
Okay, thanks for your call.
Move on here.
All right. Good evening. You're on the air.
I had to call, although I wasn't really getting that involved in this,
I was actually going to turn on to hear about some new innovations in telephony
and communication.
But one remark that someone said just really shook me to my very being to the point
where I could not understand how someone could say that and be on this radio station.
When the remark was made,
words to the effect that I've seen this happen so many times,
it's quite common in corporate radio.
It has to be stretched.
It has to be emphasized that anyone who listens to this station,
we're different than the average person.
Actually, this is like an oasis to us.
We're not the average people.
We have different ideals.
We're probably more humane.
We probably are more in touch with the human feelings, the human side of life.
We're a different type of people who all gravitated to this type of station
because we were looking for something and there was a void in the world
and this was someplace where we could find people who had feelings like we had.
It sort of pains me when somebody takes that sort of existentialist attitude.
I don't think they can really understand that we are different than the average New Yorker.
We gravitated to this place because we needed something,
and we probably have all of us who are listening to this station,
we've always probably had that void or that loneliness in our life
because we know that we're different from the average person in the world.
We have more feelings.
We have more sensual people.
This is one of the few outlets that people like us have to have others who are human like us.
I think it has to be emphasized.
I understand that.
I'm Lazlo.
I'm the person that made that comment.
I think we lost that person.
Let me respond to him.
I do understand that.
What I'm saying is, and I know that this place is different than corporate radio,
but I've worked in corporate radio and I come in here to help out because I believe in public radio,
is that I've seen these kind of tactics before.
People that have worked here at WBAI and Pacifica may have not seen these kind of stuff before,
but I've seen this.
I've been the one fired.
I've been the person locked out of the radio station before.
What I'm saying is these are more corporate tactics than they are community radio tactics.
Right.
I didn't see what Lazlo said as in any way supporting that kind of mentality.
Basically just a way of shocking some reality into the rest of us that, guess what,
this place is being treated like one of those corporate radio stations,
and we'd better wake up and see that.
I could tell by that last caller that's one person who is woken up,
and that station means a lot to him, a lot to so many of our listeners.
It's their life.
It's our lives.
It's something that we've poured our hearts and souls into,
and you can't expect people to walk away from something like that
or accept something that's unpleasant or just plain wrong.
This is a conversation that I think will be going on for quite some time
in many different forms, and rightfully so.
All right, let's move on.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah, hi.
You know, I just wanted to say, I don't know if you were aware of it earlier today,
but you know that Betsy Walsh was on Patrice's program.
Betsy Walsh being the general manager of Pacifica?
She's the executive director of Pacifica.
Okay.
And Patrice finally came on,
and basically it was, in terms of time,
the amount of time spent on it was woefully inadequate.
Well, how much would you want to spend on it?
I mean, you've been hearing the same kind of thing for about a week now
on every single program.
Well, I don't know.
I don't think you realize what I'm referring to.
How many times has Betsy Walsh been on?
That's exactly the point.
Okay.
This is the only time that she's been on.
This is her first time on,
and this is the first time Utrice has issued a statement
as to trying to give a picture of what has occurred.
Previously to that you just had an info commercial
where she's saying, well, you know, there's plenty to do,
and I'm equal to the task,
and you'll hear from me shortly or something like that.
But, you know, listening to your story of life in Denmark
and then going to the description of the armed guards in the lobby
and people 20 years threatening with being sent to be locked up in the tombs,
that really hits the heart of the matter, you know.
Right there, it's basically simply saying, you know, you people are scum,
the ends justify the means,
and we don't have to tolerate any differences of opinion.
What's your answer to that, sir?
Excuse me?
How would you respond to something like that?
Well, now?
Mm-hmm.
You've got to mobilize.
You know, the one big question mark is,
it's almost an unbelievable question mark,
and yet as much as you don't want to,
this listener at any rate doesn't want to face it exactly.
I mean, Utrice, who would often preach,
I'll judge it analytically, judge it on the facts,
not on the personality.
And the facts that I see lead me to the conclusion
that I don't understand how she could be so gullible.
You know, let me point something out.
This being a hacking show and a technology show,
a lot of people over the last few weeks have said,
Dago, what's going on there?
You know, you guys are talking about the politics of program directors
and general managers.
This is the only station that is allowing 2600 and Emanuel
to do a show about hacking.
And that's one of the reasons that I think we focused on it so much.
I mean, it really stinks that we have to focus on it.
Well, I can certainly empathize with those listeners
that are making those claims.
I mean, the hacking contingent,
people who tune in for information on GSM
and the fact that you say the Russians lose contact with Mir
to continue the Sky is Falling program from two weeks ago,
are interested in actually hearing something about hacking.
This has turned into a six-week-long soap opera
that I would imagine people are starting to get tired of hearing about.
I hate to burst your bubble, Isaac,
but that soap opera will be canceled if we don't devote time to these issues.
Sometimes our petty concerns with technology
take a back seat to more important issues.
It's called union.
Yeah, I think the future of the station is a more important issue right now.
I also think the future of the country a couple of weeks ago
was a more important issue.
All right, we have a ton of calls here.
Before I go, I just want to say something briefly,
very much echoing that.
If people aren't united on the various programs,
you won't have a show.
That's it, you know?
Who do you want as producers?
Gestapo or something, you know?
I'd love to hear what Bob Farris has to say about this, frankly.
Okay, we'll tune in in a couple of days and you'll hear.
Thanks for your call.
Thanks for your call.
Let's move on.
Let's move on. Here we go.
You're on the air.
You're on the air.
Hi.
My understanding is that while Pacifica owns the license to WPAI,
it was donated for a different purpose,
and that what they don't seem to realize is in the short term,
it looks on law like they can liquidate it,
but what they're really doing is taking a radio station as a profitable ship,
turning it into deep water,
and it's going to go down when it's subject to the FCC approval
of either its sale or its changing format.
In other words, they're just taking it on a course for deep water
and they don't realize they're not liquidating it.
They're just losing it.
They're going to lose the license.
That tactic has been used before,
and I'm not saying that's exactly what's happening here,
but it certainly is a possibility.
Because it seems like they should make the connection.
They do have a valuable asset, and they're throwing it away.
The listeners are our most valuable part,
and obviously the listeners are unhappy with this,
and if you do not respect what the listeners are saying,
then clearly you're not interested in running the radio station
in any responsible way,
and that's got to be realized.
They should take BAI as it is or lose it.
All right, thanks for your call.
We'll go to another call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hello?
Hello?
Go ahead.
Yeah, does anyone there see the current problems
as a possible result of Amy Goodman's interview with President Clinton?
Well, it's a possibility.
Hey, I'm the conspiracy theorist here, you know?
Okay, well, you need help, right?
Well, yeah, I always look for help.
But did they send you?
What's that?
Did they send you?
No, nobody sent me.
I came on my own.
Well, it's certainly possible.
You don't really know why backlashes occur.
We can spend all night theorizing as to why,
but it doesn't really matter why.
The fact of the matter is that it's happening.
Right.
The fact of the matter is that people are being victimized by this unfairly.
The entire station is hurting
and is threatened with extinction as a result of this.
And the question is, what do we do about it?
How do we fix it?
Again, as a previous listener said, this has got nothing to do with personalities.
If Jesus Christ came up from the grave and said,
I want to be general manager of the radio station,
everybody would be saying, that's a great idea.
But if he did it in a way that victimized other people
and made everybody unhappy,
it wouldn't be such a good thing anymore.
It's got nothing to do with who it is.
It has to do with how the process comes about,
and the process has come about in a very bad way.
Right, the process is tainted.
Exactly, and we need to confront that issue.
If we don't confront the issue, it will simply get a lot worse.
Well, good luck to everybody over there.
Thanks, we're going to need it.
Okay, you're welcome.
And we're going to need our listeners.
You know, Manuel, you might want to choose a better metaphor.
The whole thing, the idea is that he did rise from the grave a long time ago.
Yeah, but not to head the radio station.
I was born yesterday.
Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
Jesus.
The radio station wasn't around.
That's true, by the way.
Everyone have a Merry Christmas.
No, Christmas is done.
Christmas is done.
Right, but Jesus was born yesterday.
Okay, keep going.
Moving on.
Isaac was born yesterday.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Good evening.
First of all, I am very troubled by what happened.
Although I've grown to admire you, you bleed a lot.
Is your radio on?
Yes, it is.
Okay.
Turn it off.
That's the first rule of being on the radio.
Okay, my brother, hold on.
Oh, he goes across the room.
Hello?
I'm going to sit here and wait.
Yeah, why not?
Is he back yet?
We've only got three minutes left.
Three minutes.
Hello, you're on the air.
Yes, hi.
I just have to respond, one, to that soap opera idea again.
There's not going to be a hacking show if this comes down.
Well, there isn't one now.
There isn't going to be one.
Really, stay there.
Stay with it.
Emmanuel, thank you very much.
You're very welcome.
What's going on?
I just want to say one thing.
I've called in before, and I had due support,
and I do not intend to send any money when people are locked out.
I'm sorry if the ship goes down, whatever, but I don't go with that.
As long as you turn that into something positive.
I certainly will.
It will go for legal purposes.
The other thing is, this may sound, and I've stated this on the air before,
but I grew up with people like that.
My family were friends with people like Ford and Nixon and people like that.
Anyone there, you treat anyone, thanks, that this is a solution or whatever,
and that they are going to be in on the ultimate thing.
Let me tell you, they are not going to be.
All right.
I think we're out of time.
Yep.
But thanks so much for calling.
Is that the red hot wire ringing?
Yes, it is.
Okay.
What does that mean?
It means we've got half a minute left.
One thing we should take out of this whole show is the fact that,
of all the calls we got, all the calls were about this subject.
This is something that is affecting people all around the world
and is something that's not going to go away, and we need to keep that in mind.
All right.
So, again, let me give out the information.
The meeting tomorrow night, very important meeting.
People from the radio station will be there.
People organizing, 101 6th Avenue, 630 p.m.
That's near Canal Street.
The phone number for all the updated information, 718-707-7189.
The website, www.safepacifica.net.
And email address, savewbai at hotmail.com.
Email that.
You'll be put on a mailing list, and you'll get all kinds of information.
This is Emanuel Goldstein for Isaac and for Laszlo.
Well, I think we'll be back next week, and if so, I'll be in the studio,
and we'll see just how many security guards and new locks there are to look at.
Good night.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
From Billy Bone, but the best expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
From Billy Bone.
I hope that's understood.
I would like to give a shout-out to all the prisoners throughout the world.
The prison system is out of control,
and people you love are living under conditions that no one deserves.
Why not let them know you care by sending them a message over the airways
with WBAI's Prisoner Shout-Out Line,
broadcasting your voice every Thursday morning at 645.
Do you have a loved one behind bars and you haven't called?
Pick up the phone and dial 212-209-2958.
That's the Prisoner Shout-Out Line, 212-209-2958.
I miss you so much at home, man.
I really do, man.
Stay strong, brother, man.
Daddy loves you.
Stay strong.
And we're going to be all right.
The best thing that ever happened to me.
I love you today.
♪♪♪
Hola.
This is Malika Lee Whitney inviting you to join me for
From Harlem to Havana,
a series of cultural commentaries, observations, and conversations
gathered during my recent travel to Cuba.
Highlights will include moments from the 22nd
International Latin American Film Festival,
the Havana Jazz Festival,
and an interview with Assata Shakur,
travel tips, and more.
That's From Harlem to Havana,
Wednesday, December 27th at 5 p.m.
over listener-sponsored WBAI Radio 99.5 FM.
♪♪♪
It is now 9 p.m.
Up next, Taher with Barbara Nimri Aziz.
♪♪♪