April 9th, from 2 to 5 p.m., join WBAI for a teach-in and fundraising event at the Community
Church, located at 40 East 35th Street between Lexington and Park Avenue.
The teach-in, focusing on the trial of Amadou Diallo and the rise of police brutality in
New York City, will feature Richie Perez of the National Congress of Puerto Rican Rights,
Iris Baez, mother of Anthony Baez, Ron Daniels of the Center for Constitutional Rights, Bonnie
Burroughs, Congress Member Major Owens, Naya Durinde of the Daily Challenge, and representatives
from YouthForce, among many others.
That's Sunday, April 9th, at the Community Church, 40 East 35th Street, from 2 to 5 p.m.
For more information, call 212-209-2827.
That's 212-209-2827.
And you're listening to your radio station WBAI, it's 8 o'clock, time for Off The Hook.
But if they could, they would, fondly bound for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood, fondly bound.
Fondly bound.
And a very good evening to everybody, the program is Off The Hook, and we come your
way, we come your way every Tuesday night at this time, and we have the theme starting
all over again, isn't that nice?
Well, how about that?
So good we had to play it twice, well actually our machines are all messed up, so I'm going
to turn it off.
Well, Isaac's on the other side of the room, how you doing?
Oh, right, so yourself?
It's been a crazy week, it really has been crazy, and just to give you an idea, we have
Kevin Mitnick who's going to be joining us this show and will be taking phone calls,
so I would imagine that it probably would be in people's interest if they want to ask
a question of Kevin to start calling now, because from what I understand, at least locally
anyway, from what I understand, the phone does not hang up if you let it ring 5,000
times.
However, if you're calling from some other part of the country or some other part of
the world, it does time out, and that's just the nature of the phone system.
So people in New York will have a distinct advantage in that regard, so if you're calling
from a local area, yeah, you can keep ringing forever and it won't hang up.
212-209-2900 is our phone number, so please give a chance to the other people listening,
the people listening in other parts of the world, as well as we are broadcasting over
real audio, and Kevin will be joining us in just a couple of moments, but first we have
some really important updates to start with.
Really bizarre situation unfolding down in Philadelphia.
I'm not sure if people have been reading the website, but Bernie S., it seems, has been
targeted once again by the Secret Service.
It's really unbelievable how many times these people will harass him, but apparently what
happened, this was shortly after last week's show, we heard about this, as you might have
known, Bernie was sick last week and had not gone to work.
It seems one of the days that he was not at work, the Secret Service went to his place
of work and started asking questions about him, once again, all over again, as if they
don't know everything there is to know about him, and they went there to find out, maybe
they lost their records or something, they went to his work and started asking questions,
and it was really kind of strange.
Bernie found out about this the next day, that they had actually been there asking about
him, and so he did the one thing that they never would expect you to do, you know what
that is?
Called them?
Yeah, he called them.
He called the Secret Service, and they don't get called very often, they're not all that
popular, but...
Well, they are the Secret Service.
Yeah, I don't think their number is even listed, but he called them and basically asked what
they wanted, you know, what do you want with me, why are you coming to my work, what do
you want to know?
And they said, well, we need to talk to you.
Actually, no, they didn't even say that at first, they said that they couldn't talk to
him, because they were so freaked out that he was actually calling them, that they said
they couldn't talk to him.
Then about ten minutes later, they called him back.
When they got prepared.
Yeah, when they got the script together, they called him back and said, well, yeah, we need
to talk to you, we need to talk to you at your house at seven in the morning tomorrow.
And Bernie was like, well, here's the thing, okay, I'm sick, and seven a.m. is a very early
time for me, and plus, I'm not really sure I want you anywhere near my house.
And basically, after going around in circles for a little while, they suggested a different
time of six a.m.
They just didn't seem to get it.
That went on for a while longer.
He offered to meet them at all different places, at a diner, at their office, at their home,
in a bus, you know, wherever, wherever they wanted, you know, any other place, except
his house.
Keep in mind, Bernie S. is somebody who has had the Secret Service abuse him quite severely
and practically destroy his life, not the kind of people you'd want to invite in.
After a while, the agent got all flustered and said he had to go and couldn't talk to
him anymore.
So he hung up.
Ten minutes later, the phone rings, and it's another agent, someone who's obviously higher
up on the chain.
Sounds a lot more polished.
And this guy says, yes, Mr. Bernie, or whatever it is they chose to call him, we need to get
into your house in order to inspect your wires to see if your telephone and your cable TV
are hooked up properly.
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, these guys, I don't know if they watch, like, you know, Hanna-Barbera cartoons to
get ideas on how to convince people to do things, but they're not really the best.
It's pretty easy to see when they're just, like, lying through their teeth.
Well, look at it this way.
They were probably going to do it for free, whereas the phone company would charge you
50 bucks.
Well, here's the thing.
Bernie suggested, after he finished laughing about this, he suggested that they go and
get someone from, or he'd actually go and get someone from the cable company and from
the phone company.
Which is a good thing, because he doesn't even have, you know, a wired phone in his
house.
So that's kind of a situation right there.
But, you know, he'd get somebody from Bell Atlantic and from the cable company to go
there and inspect it and report back to them and tell them if there was anything untoward
about the connection.
No, no, that wasn't acceptable.
They had to come there themselves, without the cable company, without the phone company,
to inspect his wiring.
And basically at that point, he just told them to speak to his lawyer.
And that's pretty much where it has stood since last week.
I do know that when his lawyer contacted them yesterday, and this is where it gets really
kind of bizarre and creepy, they told the lawyer that the agent that Bernie had been
talking to did not work for them.
Had not worked in that office for months.
Yeah, so you have phantom agents apparently going and harassing people at their place
of work.
And then when they're called on it, they say that agent doesn't work for us.
What in the world is going on here?
Agent Smith?
Well, I know we have no Agent Smith at our establishment.
It's a very bizarre and scary story.
However, we have had news of it up on our website.
A lot of people are following this now.
A lot of people are watching this.
I don't think they know how to deal with publicity like that.
We've gotten a bunch of letters about this.
I just want to read one of them really quickly.
On the question of why.
Why this is happening.
I could tell you why.
Well, this person I think did a better job than anything you could ever say.
Let's listen to this.
Why?
So he will get sad, depressed, and be more vulnerable to urges like getting revenge or
just having fun the old way.
Also, it doesn't look good when folks with as much support as Bernie seem to get by after
having a run-in with the Secret Service.
You see, they aren't really happy unless they have destroyed you.
To them, anything else is a fish that got away.
Oh, by the way, they get him fired by simply showing up and having his employer wonder
if he should keep Bernie on the job with the Secret Service inquiring about him.
All that stuff about getting inside his house was a bunch of crap meant to confuse him into
thinking they had other motives.
Signed, Jeff.
And I think Jeff got it right on the nose there.
Oh, sure he did.
Yeah.
Did Jeff listen to the show two weeks ago?
Which one are you referring to?
Are you referring to where?
The one where Bernie was walking around the Secret Service little convention.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's not the bear sticking his hand into the beehive?
Well, it certainly might have gotten their attention.
But the thing is, it was, I mean, are you saying he did something wrong by doing that?
It was a hotel.
I'm sure it was a hotel, but I'm saying that, you know, walking around a place where the
Secret Service is having a meeting and they know who you are.
They're probably going to go say, hey, how you doing?
They knew who he was.
They knew who it was.
It was in a public hotel that was available.
Anybody could walk past the concierge and get there.
And it was all broadcast live.
So, I mean, there's nothing secretive going on here.
Understood.
But what have we established was one of the main reasons that Bernie served some serious time
the first time, where he made the Secret Service look like a bunch of idiots for picking their nose.
Which is kind of funny.
But, you know, he made the Secret Service look like a bunch of idiots for picking their nose.
So the right thing for him to do is submit and never bother them again and not even...
No, it's not submitting.
It's just like saying, well, gee, if I continually bother these people, perhaps they will react in some way,
much as someone would react to a mosquito constantly plucking into someone's arm.
Yeah, except I don't see him bothering them.
His mere presence.
Is that enough to bother them, his mere presence?
Hey, I'm not the Secret Service.
Maybe it is enough to bother them.
Then they need to be bothered a whole lot.
Okay, but expect that there will be consequences.
Yeah, and there will be consequences.
If innocent people are harassed, there will also be consequences.
It's a lot different than it was five years ago.
And by the way, this happened five years ago to the day that he got arrested.
It's a lot different because, A, Bernie has a lot of support now.
He has a lawyer.
He has absolutely nothing going on that they could get him for except simply existing,
except simply being someplace they don't want him to be, that he's perfectly allowed, perfectly entitled to be.
And they have the eyes of the world watching them now.
So really, the ball is in their court.
We just have to see where it goes from this point.
But it's an interesting story, something that we're really going to have to follow in future weeks.
We don't have time this week because we have a special show today.
But we're not finished yet because we also have another intriguing bit of news.
Mackie joins us on the phone from California.
Mackie, you there?
Hi there.
How are you doing?
We had some legal developments this week, which would mean yesterday.
Uh-oh.
Yeah, some rather interesting legal developments.
Do you want to keep us abreast of that?
Yeah, that was pretty cool, actually.
After we got completely shut out at the first hearing,
the EFF was able to retain us a really good First Amendment and intellectual property lawyer here in New York,
the name of Martin Garbus of Frankfurt Garbus Klein & Sells.
And so he was there representing us on Monday when we had a hearing.
And the MPAA wanted to win by default at the hearing, but he argued,
and we got a trial date set for December 5th, which is a lot more time than they would have given us otherwise.
So the DECSS case will be preparing basically the rest of the year, and then a trial will start.
So right now where we're at is really trying to get a lot of publicity out while we prepare for the trial.
And so we got bumper stickers on the way, Stop the MPAA.
And the Academy Awards are this Sunday.
So hopefully we'll get a bunch of those out if people are in the L.A. area and want to help out.
There are flyers still on the 2600 site.
People go leafletting.
And the battle continues.
The DMCA, the Library of Congress had a commenting period, which is ongoing.
And a lot of people wrote in and told them what they think of it.
And that will be getting decided in October.
And meanwhile, there's been another DMCA-related lawsuit brewing from Mattel.
Mattel, the same toy manufacturer, publishes Cyber Patrol, which is filtering software.
And a group came out with a utility called CP Hack, which decrypts their list of blocked sites,
so everyone can see now just what they're blocking with the filtering software.
And this included all sorts of things that shouldn't have been blocked, educational sites, breast cancer sites,
things that they had classified as pornographic or illegal material, which just really wasn't.
And Mattel is suing people who distributed this software, claiming,
oh, well, it circumvents our copy protection because our list of blocked sites is proprietary.
Well, how are you supposed to run this software if you can't tell what you're blocking?
How can you decide if it's good software, which apparently it isn't?
It's an obscene error rate when they went through and just checked sites.
So they're doing basically the same thing that the MPAA is doing to us.
Yeah, they took a cue from the MPAA in a lot of their behavior here,
because they're suing everyone on the Internet, basically,
with no regard for geographic boundaries or legal jurisdictions.
In fact, some of the same overseas defendants in the DECSS case have received cease and desist letters in the Mattel case.
Okay, Mack, I have to cut you off because Kevin's getting impatient.
He just called me now, in fact, and wants to get going with the show,
and I'm sure that the rest of us want to as well.
Give out the URL real quick, and we'll be following this in weeks ahead as well.
www.peacefire.com has all the information on CensorWare.
Okay, but that's pretty good news about the legal developments this week,
and, of course, we'll be keeping people abreast of that.
As it unfolds in the weeks and months ahead, we're going to fight this thing until the end.
We'll be right back with Kevin.
But he never saw it
He could have been a famous guitarist
He must have not have had a clue
Feeling like a bowl of spaghetti
Not knowing what to get
Yeah
He's the one with hope in his soul
Can't let him slip through the hole
He might just go away and never return
He's hanging on a whim and a prayer
So glad to see him there
Maybe he'll make it someday, someway
Going past the expected
Maybe he'll get what he wants
Yeah
Good golly, it's getting moldy
Got to move on, but oh no
People said no one, maybe perhaps he's right
There's a fear of feeling at night
Something may turn out of sight
But you never really know
Thinking only maybe it might
Things may turn out right
Yeah
Catbird
Catbird
The O is the MPAA symbol
You don't say, you know, you're right
If you turn it sideways, it looks just like the MPAA symbol
I never noticed that
I never noticed that
Remarkable coincidence
It is a remarkable coincidence
Well, you're going to be seeing these
Not replacing the Free Kevin stickers in various places
That you might see the Free Kevin stickers
But adding to them
Because it's not like the battle ever ends
The battle simply continues into other forums
It's a different color, too
Yeah, it's a slightly different kind of schoolbush
Orange thing
And we also have H2K stickers that have just come out too
Which are also fun for the whole family
Yep, Hackers on Planet Earth
Taking place July 14th through 16th
2000, Hotel Pennsylvania in New York
And that's going to be a real hubbub of activity
The way everything is looking right now
So, want one?
Oh yeah, I'll have one
Take an MPAA too
All right, let's see if Kevin's with us
Kevin, you there?
I'm here
All right
Hey, how you doing?
Okay, okay
And it was really good seeing you in New York
Yeah, I had a great time
I'm looking forward to coming back
Yeah, well we're looking forward to having you back
And I know a lot of people were really thrilled to see you
At the 2600 meeting
Especially when no one had any idea you'd be there
All of a sudden popped in
As a result of that Court TV appearance
And the Congressional testimony
What's been new since the last time we talked?
Well, a couple of things
And by the way, it was my first 2600 meeting, I believe
Wow, cool
Yeah, I think it was
So it was definitely
I had a great time and I enjoyed meeting everybody
And, well, a few things are new
I found out recently that
The Computer Museum History Center
Is going to have a lecture
On early computer crime
And who the speakers are going to be
Is Whitfield Diffie
I don't know how to pronounce his name
I think it's Diffie
With Sun Microsystems
Peter Newman with SRI International
And Cliff Stoll
The guy that everybody knows
The cuckoo's egg
That came out of that bestseller book
And more importantly
I learned that John Markoff
The guy who libeled me on the front pages of the New York Times
Is doing a talk and it's titled
Kevin and Me
So when I found out about this
I wanted to go attend the lecture
So I'd have an opportunity to ask Mr. Markoff
To reveal his sources of these claims he made about me
Or have a retraction printed
And I tried to get permission through my probation
Well, I just assumed that the probation department
Was going to allow me to go
And so I booked a flight
And was making arrangements
And then I checked with my probation officer
Because since I'm on supervised release
Going up to Mountain View from Los Angeles
I have to get permission
And what ended up happening
Is the probation department declined
To allow me to travel up there to attend
But I just learned
Within the last hour
It just took an interesting twist
Because one of the
I guess individuals
That's part of this history center
Or part of booking the attendees at the conference
What it is, apparently it's on Moffett Field
Which is part of NASA Ames Research Center
So what you have to do is you have to RSVP
And they put you on a list
And you have to be a U.S. citizen
To be able to attend the lecture
Because I guess it's on a military base
Or it's considered on federal property
So anyway, I just found out from my attorney's office
That an individual called
Wanting to find out whether or not
It was the real Kevin Mitnick
That wanted to attend this conference
And mentioned that she would be happy
To have me attend
That they would basically be thrilled
But on the other hand
That she was calling to advise
That NASA has refused
To allow me on their property
To attend the conference
So this I found out
By the probation department
So it's interesting
That NASA would decline
To allow me, a U.S. citizen
On their property
To attend a lecture
Which is largely about me
So it was quite disappointing
That I won't have the opportunity
To go up to participate
In being able to
Get to the bottom
Of some of the reports
That were made about me years ago
So you won't be allowed to go there
And it's horribly unfair that you're not
A lot of other people will be allowed to go there
Maybe you could give the exact details
And what they need to do to get there
Well what I have here
Is I have somebody faxed me
The information that was on the net
And apparently
To attend
I'm looking on here
I'm looking for the contact name
What I have is
I have a telephone number
But it looks like the person's name
Here is Dag Spicer
Who's the manager
Of historical collections
At the Computer Museum
History Center
And I have a phone number
Of area code 650-604-2578
But I don't believe
That was the person
I contacted
The person that actually contacted my lawyer's office
Was a lady named Karen Matthews
And her number is 650-604-2568
So maybe she's the one
Oh here it is
I'm sorry
It's Wendy Ann Francis
At area code 650-604-2579
But they need the RSVP
By Monday, March 20th
Which was yesterday
So I'm not sure
That I'd permit
Maybe they have to check
The person out
Before they allow them
Onto Moffitt Field
But that's the person
To contact, Wendy Ann Francis
I believe we've had a few people
Already get to that stage
Where they're going to be attending
So there'll be some kind of representation
Of your side
At this thing
And we'll find out exactly what is said
We'll report back on that next week
But again, it's taking place this Thursday
Do you have a time?
Oh yeah, it's Thursday, 6pm
And it's at the Auditorium Building 201
At Moffitt Field
And it's just disappointing
That I'm not able to defend myself
Even though I'm out
The U.S. government
And NASA
Is prohibiting me
From doing so
So I guess I have to rely
On my support network
To try to do it for me
That's amazing
And I think what we should do
In the days ahead
My requests are pretty simple
My requests are
The sources be revealed
Or the evidence put forward
On these claims made
And if the evidence isn't there
Or the sources aren't revealed
To simply have the New York Times
Retract the false claims made about me
I think it's a reasonable request
And that's what I was hoping
To at least start
The motions towards that end
I think Isaac's trying to say something
What about the possibility
Of a teleconference
Or some kind of a speakerphone setup
Would they be in that?
No, it wasn't where I was going to speak
I assumed when the speakers spoke
That they would have a Q&A section
A Q&A
Oh, you just wanted to sit in
Yeah, he had a pretty good queue
I was planning on going up to the microphone
And using that as an opportunity
To ask questions
Isn't it interesting that
You have no trouble confronting the issue here
And Markov is doing everything possible
To avoid any kind of confrontation
And it's funny because
He's always complaining about how
He's never gotten the ability to talk to you
Well, here's the ability right here
You're willing to confront him face to face
And NASA is stepping in
And protecting him from you
Well, what I believe his concern is
Or at least one of his many concerns
Is once it's exposed
What he's done
And there's no defense
It kind of might affect his credibility
In a sense
So that's probably why he's backpedaling
But whatever
I don't know the reasons
He knows his reasons
But I'll just have to wait
At a time in the future
When it could be done
Unfortunately, in three years
After my supervised release has expired
Where I can
Go anywhere that I choose
It might be a little bit too late
I was kind of hoping to
Start the process
As soon as possible
Okay
Some other news that might be
Of interest to some people
And I'm sure it's exciting you know
The film Takedown actually has been released in France
I know
I guess they're afraid to release it here
But they released it over there
It's got a different title
I believe they have a website
Called Cybertrack.com
But unless you're fluent in French
I don't think you're going to understand it
Ah, but that's what
Babelfish.altavista.com is for
Babelfish, whatever
Yeah
Cybertrack is spelled C-Y-B-E-R-T-R-A-Q-U-E
And just put a www in front of that
And a .com at the end of that
And you should see everything that they have to say
About this film
I hope that the French population
Does a smart thing and saves their money
Well I think they are
Because the site only had about 3,000 hits
When I looked at it
And that's not very many
Considering it's supposedly been up
Since before the 15th
It says coming on the 15th of March
And here it is, you know what
The 21st now
And from my sources have told me
That there's also
I think there was a computer conference
Or a computer security conference
And I think what they're doing
Is they're testing it in the foreign market
To see how well it does
And depending on the results there
They'll decide what they're going to do in the US
From my understanding is
They plan on releasing it to television
And not a feature film
Or a video
But
So you can probably
Figure out the quality
Of the movie
By their choice
And how they're going to distribute it
Yeah it seems kind of strange
That they would go far away
To test it out on a foreign crowd
That really probably isn't as involved in the story
Before they figure out what they're going to do here
Yeah but
I don't know
How that's going to work
But that's what I assume they're going to do
They're going to test it in the foreign market
And I don't know if France is the only
Foreign
Country that has purchased
The film rights
To display the film
So I'm not privy
To that information
But hopefully we'll find out
As it happens
Okay a note to our listeners
We're going to start taking phone calls
In a minute or two
212-209-2900
There are some open lines
So feel free to give us a call
There's another thing I wanted to mention
Obviously since I can't use the internet
I've heard that on the mailing list
That you set up
Through 2600
That some people have commented
That I'm selling out
Because I
Agree to go to the senate
To testify on how they can
Better protect their computers
And I was kind of disappointed that people
At least some people
Would take that position that I'm selling out
Because I don't
Consider it selling out
Before I agreed
To go to Washington D.C.
I specifically asked
The person
That I was talking to
I guess their liaison or the committee person
Whether or not this is
To legislate or
To do anything with any
Computer crime laws
In other words to enact
Harsher penalties or anything
That affects title 18
Of the United States code
And they told me
No this has nothing to do
With enacting any
Computer crime legislation
Or to change the penalties
But this all had to do with
How the government could simply
Protect their own information
That resides on their computers
And they were interested in
My commentary on
The rules and regulations
That the senate was
I guess considering adopting
You know since that
Didn't affect any
Computer crime legislation
I agreed to go to Washington
And present the best information
The best information
That I had possible to help them
And I don't
Considering selling out
I just consider helping
A different branch of the government
Where they need the help
And it just concerns me that
People would take that point of view
I really think that that was
A very slim margin of people
That thought that way
I was surprised to hear
Anybody felt that at all
If you had seen the testimony
You would see that the information
You were giving was certainly
Helpful to everybody
It's the kind of thing we would
Print in the magazine
We claim to want to spread
Information and share things
That's exactly what you did
I would hope that people
Given that opportunity
Wouldn't blow it and would
Actually try to enlighten people
If they refused to listen
Well at least you tried
It was simply education
And I thought I could help
At least the government
Protect their information
Whether or not it resides
On a computer so I wanted
To offer my experience
And advise them in the best
Possible way
By the federal judge in my case
Judge Felzer
To act as an advisor or consultant
To anyone engaged in any
Computer related activity
And who in the world is not
Engaged in a computer related
Activity I don't know
So essentially if you look at
The broad interpretation of that
Condition I'm just simply
Precluded from advising or
Consulting with anybody on any
Computer related activity
That's absurd
And it's interesting to note
I did some research and I
Found a couple of cases
Do you know what a
Call selling case is
Where you get
Where an individual
Or a group of individuals
Sets up a call selling
Operation where they
Utilize cloned cell phones
And what they do is they
Are not paying the bill
They're just cloning to
The unknowing
Customer's telephone number
And placing calls and they're
Charging for it and a couple
Of these call cell operations
Were busted by the secret service
And it's interesting to note
That those individuals in those
Cases why they did receive
A short term of imprisonment
I believe less than 18 months
None of the
Aspects were given the
Condition of supervised release
Where they couldn't use a cell
Phone and I thought that's
Really interesting because in
My case it was really to do
With computers and using a
Cellular phone as a tool to
Avoid detection rather than
Using it, you know, rather
Than the cell phone being the
Target of the fraud.
So I thought it was interesting
That in my case I'd be
Excluded from using a cell phone
Or possessing one yet where
Somebody's actually profiting
Of, you know, cellular phone
Fraud that they're allowed to
Use a cell phone.
I see it as a recurring theme
In the prosecutions we've
Followed over the years that
The less malicious people get
Hit with these things all the
More and the people that are
Really out there making a
Profit and really committing
Yeah, it's interesting.
So I guess with the message the
Federal government is sending,
If you're going to commit
Computer hacking activity, you
Might as well do it for profit
And we'll punish you less, but
If you do it for the intellectual
Challenge and the quest for
Knowledge, well, we're going to
Really come down hard on you,
You know, so that's a weird
Message for them.
It's a weird message and I hope
That's where you're crossing, in
My opinion, from hacking to, you
Know, criminal, you know, just
Using a tool, a computer as a
Tool to commit a crime.
Right.
Okay, a lot of people have been
Waiting patiently, so we're going
To go to the phones.
Do I get to choose, like, caller
Number seven, they get to win a
Porsche or something?
Maybe that's not such a good
Idea.
But just a word to the people
Calling in.
Let's keep the questions short,
Let's not have any speeches, and
Please don't call more than once
Because there's a lot of people
Trying to get through.
We have kevin mitnick on the
Line.
Please ask your question and
Hopefully kevin will have an
Answer for you.
I'll try to.
Some questions I might not be
Able to answer.
Before I make a test, I want to
Give out my e-mail address.
That's called blowing it right
There.
Let me point out to that person,
Do not call again.
We know where you are.
Kevin, you still there?
I'm here.
I'm sorry about that.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
I know you went away when mosaic
Tried to interact with computers.
I would like to get your
Impression because there's been
So many changes, things like
Java applets and dynamic html
And microsoft's hierarchy.
What was your first reaction
When you just saw the extreme
Changes and how computers have
Actually evolved in the past five
Years?
Well, it's been quite
Overwhelming, in fact.
I was recently at usc.
We had a conference, their
Online journalism, well, the
Annenberg school of
Communication at a conference
Where they invited journalists
From all around the world to
Attend, and it was simply
Like, it was just shocking
To me, or just, I don't know
If that would be the appropriate
Word.
I was just, like, amazed.
Because when I was shipped off
To prison, the internet wasn't
There.
You were correct, mosaic was at
1.0, and i believe links was
Out.
Everything has become the
Internet, and it's become so
Important, and people are
Exploiting the internet in
Business to essentially become
Millionaires overnight, and
It's just, everything is
Dot-com now.
I look at billboards, i listen
To radio ads.
I noticed a lot of ads for
Internet service providers.
However, i watched, i must have
Watched maybe ten hours of tv
For the five years i was in
Prison, so i didn't really get
A real sense for how the
Internet has progressed, and
How it's, how everybody is
Relying on it, and it was just
Very interesting to me.
And it was kind of like a
Culture shock.
I mean, it's not a culture
Shock.
Then again, going to the
Supermarket was kind of
Overwhelming for me, too.
Oh, okay, well, thank you.
Good luck in everything you do.
Hey, thank you for your kind
Words.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
Ten hours of tv in five years,
That's pretty good.
I watched, you know, when they
Showed videos, i'd watch the
You know, usually it was the,
You know, certain ethnic
Groups controlled the tv,
Because there were, you know,
More of that type of group,
And i wasn't really interested
In watching rap videos or
Listening to spanish stations.
And then, you know, what was
Left is, you know, it just
Wasn't interesting to me.
So when they had the news on
Or a news program, i'd watch
It or watch videos, and i
Probably spent most of my time
Listening to my radio.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
Good evening, you're on off the hook.
Oh, hi.
Kevin, do you feel at all vindicated
After you spoke to the senate,
Like they finally listened to you?
Well, i wouldn't say i felt
Vindicated, i felt honored that
They, i felt more respected,
And i felt honored that they
Would value my opinion, but i
Didn't feel vindicated.
You didn't feel at all like
You'd finally gotten through?
You'd been screaming at this
Wall for so long?
No, because really, they
Invited me there to give them
Information.
It wasn't like, you know,
I just assume it's because
They knew i had the,
It's known that i have a talent
For breaching computer security
Systems, so they just wanted
To get my opinion on how to
Do it.
But, you know, what has been
Important to me is how, as an
Individual, my constitutional
Rights were disregarded, and
While that, if that can happen
To kevin mitnick, it certainly
Could happen to you, and also
About the manipulation by the
Media, and that's what was
Important, but those issues
I don't think played a part in
My senate testimony.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
212-209-2900, we're on the air
With kevin mitnick.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi, kevin.
I'd just like you to know that
In this month's doctor dobbs
Journal, there was a quote by
John markov, and there was a
Letter in which they supported
You guys on the dcss case, and
I don't get the open source
Community, how can they stand
For two things, it's just
A slander suit against this
Jackass.
Markov, number one, is the
Money issue.
I consulted an entertainment
Attorney that actually is well
Known for initiating defamation
Suits.
I believe they represented steve
Wynn, rodney dangerfield, they
Won the carol burnett case
Against the national inquirer,
And you're talking, you know,
Spending upwards of $350 to
$400 per hour for representation,
And i didn't have enough money
To hire my own counsel to
Represent me in the criminal
Case, so i certainly didn't have
The funds, and number two is
It's an unknown, it's unknown
Whether or not, well, on a
Defamation case, the statute of
Limitations is one year, so you
Have to file your case, i believe,
In one year that you learn of
The, i guess, the tort or
However, you know, the
Terms, however it's termed when
You're defamed, but while, you
Know, as you know, i was in
Prison for five years, so it's
Unknown to me whether or not the
Statute of limitations was told
During that period of time, so
That's a question i need to get
Answered by, you know, a
Counselor at law, and lastly,
When you're going after a media
Organization like the new york
Times, who probably has, you
Know, several attorneys on
The case, who, you know, who
Could overwhelm, you know, an
Attorney by, you know, doing
Like, you know, by papering them
To death, so the cost could run
Up, so it might, so an attorney
Might think twice about
Representing somebody against the
New york times, but because of
The first amendment in this
Country, i think one of the
Elements that has to be proven
That it was, that they acted
With malice and it was
Deliberate, and it's a tough
Thing to prove that they acted
With malice and they
Deliberately did it to, you
Know, injure my reputation,
Because i did not put the new
York times on notice prior to
The publication of these articles
Because i had no idea that these
False claims were going to be
Made about me, so when you're
Suing, when you're a public
Figure, you know, i'm considered
A public figure for limited
Areas, you know, the computer
Arena, but when you're a public
Figure and a news media
Organization, you know, again,
You know, either prints, you
Know, prints false claims or
Libels you, you still have to
Usually, they have to be on
Some sort of notice, or they
Have to exercise, i think they
Only have to exercise reasonable
Diligence in investigating the
Facts, which wasn't done,
Because i think even when
Forbes, when adam pennenberg at
Forbes did an article, i don't
Know, last year, he contacted
John markoff to find out the
Source of the claim that i broke
Into norad when i was a
Teenager, and he just said, oh,
He heard it from one of my
Friends, which is a b.s.
Line, you know, i don't believe
One of my friends would have
Told him such a thing, but you
Would think that any reporter or
Especially any fact checker at
Forbes would have called norad to
Determine whether or not that
Claim was true, which was not
Done, but that's the reasons,
You know, pretty much in a
Nutshell of why i haven't
Pursued a libel suit, but if
There's any attorneys out there
That can answer the question on
The statute of limitations
Question, and they'd be
Interested in taking the case on
The contingency, well, i'd be
Interested in going forward.
We're on the phone with kevin
Mitnick, 212-209-2900, and
Kevin, i wanted to know, are you
Getting many bits of mail to
This day?
Oh, yeah, i've received numerous
Letters, i got gifts, i got
Cds and videos and some phone
Cards, which have been very
Thoughtful, and i
Appreciate it, and
I spoke to
Kerry, you know, who's
My webmaster on
The free kevin and
Kevin mitnick.com site, and i
Mentioned, i asked
Her to,
Well, i didn't ask her
To post it, but i gave her the
Information of, you know,
The first name of the party,
What their name was and what
They sent, so she can, you
Know, if
She so chose, she can post it
On the website. see, i'm not
Allowed to direct anybody to
The website, so i have to be
Very careful that i don't
Specifically ask someone to put
Something on some computer, so
I have to, but it should be up
There pretty soon.
In order for us to thank the
People, kevin has to tell us the
Names of the people, but, you
Know, it's kind of like, you
Know, if i had to respond to
Each letter, because i get
Numerous letters, which are
Very kind and thoughtful, and
I would be spending maybe 10
Hours a day writing return
Letters, and right at this
Point, i'm trying to get back
On my own two feet, and, you
Know, trying to find gainful
Employment while at the same time
Trying to care for my father,
Who's still trying to, you
Know, beat this staph infection
That he caught while in the
Hospital. that's simply
Unbelievable, that as soon as
You came out of prison, you
Had a heart attack?
Yeah, he had a heart attack, and
He ended up getting a triple
Bypass, and what happened is
When, i guess, during the
Operation, i guess the operating
Room wasn't sterile, or for
Whatever reason, he caught a
Staph infection, and the staph
Infection, he's been fighting for
Two months, and it's pretty much
He's, you know, disabled in a
Sense, so he relies on me to,
You know, to do a lot of
Errands and to help him out, so
I'm trying to do the best i can,
And that takes my time, and
Also, i've been participating
In, you know, going out to
D.C., going out to new york,
And, you know, doing interviews,
And at the same time trying to
Find how i could, you know,
Basically feed myself and find
A position that's commensurate
With the restrictions that i have
To live under, which is, you
Know, very, you know, as you
Know, they're very stringent
Conditions.
Can you give us the address and
What you would like people to
Send you, and what you could
Use?
The address, i think, i don't
Know, i'm not sure off the top
Of my head, i think it's
2219 east thousand
Oaks boulevard, suite
432, or number
432.
It's a mail drop, so it's really
Just a mailbox, and the city
Is thousand oaks, california,
And the zip code is
91361, i believe.
What i'd like to get is,
I've been getting a lot of
Videos in the mail.
I'd like to see pirates of
Silicon valley.
That's one movie that i missed,
And i don't know if that's on
Video.
You're going to wind up with
Seven copies of it now, at
Some point.
I'd like to get that.
The phone cards are always
Useful because i'm spending a
Lot of time on the phone.
Explain the phone cards to us.
If people send you prepaid
Phone cards, that makes your
Life a lot easier, right?
Yeah.
Recently, like, somebody sent
Me a phone card that was, i
Guess, purchased at 7-eleven.
They're like the anonymous phone
Card.
I've been incurring a lot of
Phone expense, returning a lot
Of calls that are usually by
Media organizations, and i've
Been incurring a lot of expense
On the telephone, so that's
Always very helpful.
But i also like receiving
Letters and postcards.
I receive very thoughtful
Letters and stuff, and it's
Just uplifting.
I do receive a lot of cds,
And it's interesting.
Someone sent me the alienist,
Which i read while i was in
Prison, and i already had the
Book, so it was a shame that
Somebody, you know, spent the
Money to send it to me.
It was thoughtful, but i've
Already read it.
And then i sometimes get cds
Of music.
I'm mostly, like, classic rock
Or into rock and roll, so
Sometimes i get, like, cds that
Well, it's not like i don't
Like it.
It's just that i was in certain
Groups in prison.
You know what was amazing to me
Is the favorite thing people
Watched in there was, like,
BET, which is a black
Entertainment channel, or black
Entertainment television, when
They'd have the music videos.
But they loved cop shows.
They loved america's most
Wanted and cops, and it's like
Every time i went by the tv,
And it was most of the time
Because you're in pretty small
Quarters there, they were always
Watching cop shows.
I guess they're hoping to see
Some of their friends and family
On tv.
All right, let's try to take
Some more phone calls in the
Brief time we have.
On the address, since you're not
Entirely sure, please check the
Website.
No, no, no dvds.
Okay.
Well, you don't have a dvd player,
So i guess it wouldn't be very
Useful anyway.
Okay, let's take another phone
Call.
Good evening.
I was curious, since he was in
Prison for such a long period of
Time and he saw what is going on
In prison, you know, does he get
Involved in any prison issues,
And how did the prisoners, these
Prisoners who like to watch cop
Shows on bt, how did they treat
Him and did they understand why
He was in prison, you know, and
Did they treat him respectfully
Or did they treat him with
Contempt, you know, how was he
Treated in this prison that was
Mostly black and hispanic?
It wasn't mostly black.
Well, white people were the
Minority, but it was mostly black
And hispanic, you know, and i
Think it was mostly hispanic
Because what there was a, i
Don't know if it's a new federal
Law, but there was a law
Regarding illegal entry, so if
Somebody was deported and they
Reentered the country without
Permission of the ins, it was a
Serious federal crime, so a lot
Of the population in california
When they were deported to
Mexico, they would come right
Back into the country and get
Busted, and federal courts were
Sentencing these guys up to
Eight years in prison, so it
Was, again, kind of shocking to
Me that most of the population
In there was, you know, for
That type of criminal activity,
Just, you know, and don't forget
These guys were born in, not
Born in the states, but pretty
Much maybe their families brought
Them over here when they were
Infants and they were raised
Here, and then they ended up
Committing some sort of crime,
Getting busted and deported to
Mexico, where they don't know
Anybody, and then they, of
Course, want to come back to be
With their family, and then they
Get busted just for the simple
Act of entering the country, and
Then they send them away to
Prison for, you know, eight years,
It really depends on what crime
They were deported, you know,
They have a thing called an
Aggravated felony, but to answer
Your question, you know, i got
Along with most of the inmates,
But most of the prison, you
Know, most of it was, well, if
You respect, you know, the other
Guy, he respects you, it wasn't
Like state prison, and did people
Really understand what i was in
There for? not really, you know,
They understood i had a large
Support group, they knew that,
They understood i was high
Profile, but did they really
Understand the issues of my case,
You know, that i was, you know,
Held without trial and without a
Bail hearing for so many years,
You know, maybe they understood
That, but usually the other
People in prison, you know, had
Their own problems to deal with
In their own cases, so they were
Thinking about, you know,
Researching and trying to mitigate
The damages in their own, you
Know, in their own case, rather
Than really focusing on other
People's cases.
When you speak about your case
Over, you know, while you're going
Around the country, do you tie
Your case in with prison issues,
You know, and how prisoners are
Treated, how people are being
Held without bail, you know,
Without hearing, because there's
Other people, you know, being
Held beside yourself.
No, no, of course, i mean,
There's people that are sitting
In prison for many, many years,
And they're eventually cleared
By a dna test because they're
Accused of some rape or accused
Of some other crime, and then they
End up being cleared by a dna
Test, and, you know, i think that's
Very egregious, and most of my
Prisoner, the prison issues,
Don't forget, when i was in
Prison, i maintained my silence
With the media.
I certainly, i wouldn't even have
Gone on this show off the hook
Because i was very, very
Concerned, and i was advised by
Counsel, anything that i say can
And will be used against me and
Others, so i've just really
Begun to speak out after my
Release from prison, but while i
Was in prison, i was constantly
Fighting the bureau of prisons on
Issues that they would open my
Attorney-client-privileged mail
That was addressed to me, that
They would censor.
Eric, i have an e-mail address
At 2600.com, and eric would,
You know, periodically print out
My electronic mail from me, and
They would refuse to give it to
Me.
I guess when stuff was printed
Out with the html labels, because
Of, you know, the mime, you know,
I guess if they send a formatted
Mail to a non-compliant or
Non-mime-compliant client or
Server or whatever, that, as you
Know, it just prints the html
Tags around the message, and they
Claim that the html tag is
Unreliable.
And so, you know, i was
Concerned about that.
And they claimed that that was
In code or some secret code, so
They justified censoring my mail,
My electronic mail that was sent
To me.
Kevin, it was very easy to
Confuse them with that kind of
Thing.
They would basically say anything
Was code if they couldn't read it
Right away.
Don't forget, they put me in
Solitary confinement because they
Thought that i was going to take
My mail, i was going to modify
It into an fm transmitter and
Surreptitiously go place it in
The warden's office to monitor
His communication.
What was interesting to me is to
Get to the warden's office, i
Would have had to break out of
The secure perimeter of the
Prison because his office was
Outside the protected, you know,
Trapped door.
I can imagine that i'm going to
Break out of prison to plan a
Rehabilitation, you know, because
From what i hear about your case
That, you know, this is like
Stopping you from making a living.
I know people who are, you know,
Car thieves and whatnot, they go
Work for insurance companies,
Burglaries.
It's punitive.
The purpose of supervisory release
Is to help the guy become a law
Abiding citizen and to reintegrate
Into society, but what the federal
Government has chosen to do in my
Case, specifically, i believe,
You know, with the fbi agents
Involved in my case and the
Particular federal prosecutors
That prosecuted me, that they
Wanted to be punitive towards me
And they convinced this judge,
And i think the judge was also
Influenced by the inaccurate media
Reporting about me, and so she
Basically, i think, rubber-stamped
These conditions that the fbi and
U.S. Attorney's office wanted, and
It basically has the effect where
I can't do anything in technology
Or even speak about it to certain
Degrees without them having the
Ability to send me back to prison.
I'm sorry, kevin, i really hate
To leave it here, but we're totally
Out of time.
Thanks for the call, and i think
The call raised a couple of really
Good points, too, about how this
Has educated us into the conditions
In prison.
I know i've learned a lot from
Your case and the bernie s case,
I'm sorry we started late.
Yeah, there's so much to talk
About this week, but we're going
To have you back, and thanks to
The callers for calling in, and
Thanks, kevin, for answering all
The questions.
We'll be in touch.
Always good to talk to you.
Yes, and we'll be back again next
Week with updates on all the other
Stories that have been going on.
So many things.
We need two hours, three hours, i
Think, going on in this particular
Realm that we're in.
Until next week, for isaac, for
Kevin, for everybody else, it's
Emmanuel goldstein.
Have a good night.
Good night.
Since november 25th, 1999,
Five-year-old elian gonzalez has
Been held in miami against the
Wishes of his father, his family,
His country, and even the u.S.
Immigration and naturalization
Service.
How have cuban-american forces in
Miami, along with their supporters
In washington, d.C., been able to
Continually delay elian's return?
What is the impact of this case on
National and international law,
And on a young child?
Join the national committee for
The return of elian gonzalez on
Saturday, march 25th, from 2 to
5 p.M.
At the hunter college lecture
Hall, room 615 in the hunter west
Building.
The event will include an
Impressive group of panelists as
Well as cultural presentations
And refreshments.
For more information, call
212-627-4506.
That's 212-627-4506.
It is 9 o'clock, and you're tuned
To wbai, your listener-sponsored
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Stay tuned for tahrir.