here at WBAI. Coming up next, Off The Hook with Emanuel Goldstein. Stay tuned.
On Sunday, January 17th at 3pm at the Harlem State Office Building Art Gallery, stand with
our Freedom Fighters as the Malcolm X Commemoration Committee hosts its third annual dinner tribute
to the families of our political prisoners, recognizing their enormous, unseen sacrifices
as their loved ones continue to stand tall for us all behind the walls after all these years.
Proceeds will go to commissary for almost two dozen of our Freedom Fighters. Make it happen,
January 17th, Harlem State Office Building, 3pm, Free Mumia and all political prisoners. For more
information call 718-949-5153. That's 718-949-5153.
We will not obey. Racism. We will not obey.
Give a gift to WBAI this holiday season by volunteering your time.
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Please call us. We could really use your help. Contact Karen at 212-209-2828. That's 212-209-2828.
And the time is just about eight o'clock, which means, it being Tuesday night,
it's time for Off The Hook.
Much worse. But if they could, they would. For Billy Bo, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood. For Billy Bo!
Okay, we want to thank you guys for coming in and being a chorus for us while we're
trying to make a phone call here. Just turn it down a little bit. Thank you very much.
We have a studio in the other room where musicians come and practice.
Brian Eno is just in there messing around. We're trying to call somebody overseas,
actually, and apparently we're having trouble with not our phone system as I thought we were having,
but problems with AT&T. And I don't know if we'll be able to get through.
But we do have other things to talk about tonight,
and we will talk about that to some degree, whether or not we're able to get our guest.
Program is Off The Hook. It's Emanuel Goldstein with you on this Tuesday night,
the first show of 1999, what could be the last year of our existence on this planet,
because of the year 2000 disaster, which is going to strike us.
And it's going to strike us hard. That's what I'm being told. That's what I'm being told over
and over again. Someone sent me a picture just as evidence of what's going to be,
what's in store for us, of the first, the first in many foul ups and blunders,
namely the New York State inspection system for motor vehicles. Apparently some of the cars are
getting stickers that say 1991 when it's supposed to say 2001. And that's just
causing mayhem. If you saw any mayhem on the streets, that's what's causing it.
And yeah, it's only 1999. Imagine what's going to happen in the year 2000 and the years beyond.
It's pretty scary. We have, actually Patty is here with an update on the Kevin Mitnick saga,
which has taken a turn for the worse. And we have all kinds of other news things. So while I'm
trying to call overseas again, why don't you update us as to what's been happening over the
past couple of weeks? Okay. Well over the holidays, Kevin Mitnick was moved from, he's still at MDC
almost four years now. He's was moved from sixth north, which was one area of the prison. He was
asked if he wanted to move down to five north, which is a better place to be. You get more
privileges, extra phone time, more freedom and better conditions. So he was down there for 13
days. Then he was told that he had to be moved to five south. When he asked to be moved back to his
old four, six north, he was told there were security reasons why he couldn't be returned
to that floor, but it was never given any specific explanation as to why the changes were
taking place. But the thing is, every time you move from one floor to another, you lose all your
privileges, floor privileges. They are, he had become a trustee, made friends and had his own
cell. Well, over the New Year's Eve, actually New Year's Eve, Kevin Mitnick slept on the floor.
He, there was no mat. He had to sleep on a dirty floor. This because there were no cells.
On five south, not only that, but if he wanted to use a bathroom, he must ask one of the other 135
inmates on the floor if he can use their toilet because there's no general bathroom facility on
the floor. So that's how he spent New Year's Eve and has continued to spend nights on the floor.
Now, I understand that just today he was moved from five back to the sixth floor,
but not the sixth north where he has friends and his original benefits, but the sixth south
where he still doesn't know anybody and still no cell, has the same toilet problems and everything.
But he got his prison library time back, but still no computer or legal help to be with him
while he reviews the evidence. They say he was moved because of security reasons. There's one
thing, Justin Peterson, aka Agent Steele, if you remember who he is, he was an informant that
actually got Kevin in trouble as well as other people. And he goes to court and is also at MDC
on the seventh floor. So he's facing charges for violating a supervised release and he was on the
seventh floor. So there was some kind of discussion that perhaps they were afraid that they would be
talking between the vents or something like that. Anyway, it's unclear why there are security
reasons or why he hasn't been moved where he would be comfortable and, you know, just
well, what he deserves. I mean, he's innocent until proven guilty. I think it's quite a lot of abuse
for somebody that hasn't really, you know, has been sitting there for four years, almost four years.
Anyway, there's something you can do if you're interested. You can call the prison and speak to,
he has a counselor named Mike Langowski and he's said that he was sorry, but there was nothing he
could do. That's what he's been saying about his Kevin's problems. But maybe if you want to call
him, I have the phone number. His name is Mike Langowski, L-A-N-G-O-U-S-K-I. And his phone number
in California is 213-485-0439. And, you know, don't be harassing or anything because
that won't really help Kevin at all. But, you know, maybe you can just ask him why he's being
moved around and, you know, ask that he be put in a proper cell with the, you know, the amenities
that every normal prisoner deserves. So also, you know, you might want to get in touch with the
senators as well there because sometimes it helps to go above these people's heads.
Yeah, it's interesting because I was talking to Kevin only a couple of days ago and he was
obviously beside himself with frustration as to the latest developments here.
It basically seemed as if he was kind of tricked into leaving the place where he was the most
comfortable, where he had built up relationships and privileges and things like that. And they
had asked him a couple of times before, will you please move to this section because we need the
room. And he finally agreed as a favor, as a favor to them to help them out a little bit.
Actually, he's doing them favors. But he said, look, it's okay for me to be there, right? Because
this is mostly for people that have already been sentenced, this section here. So it won't be a
problem me going there. And they said, of course, no, no problem at all. And then he said, well,
if it is a problem, I won't have any trouble getting back here. They said, no, of course not.
They lied on both instances or if they didn't lie, they were woefully misinformed themselves.
And he wound up in a place where he wasn't supposed to be, according to them anyway.
Then they transferred him over to a different place where there was no room for him and he
he's sleeping on the floor. It's incredible that these kind of conditions exist here.
But this is, I guess it's typical. I guess this happens to a lot of people.
Yeah, well, the only thing is that we're hearing about it because he has a voice over the air.
I mean, how many prisoners of all kinds are going through just exactly these same things,
but actually have absolutely nobody that even cares about them, you know, so you can imagine.
No, it's a prison industrial complex is alive and well. And for you never even know why they're
doing this to people. Now, do you have it? Did you get phone numbers out? Because I was trying to
negotiate with AT&T just now. I gave the Mike Glangowski number who's Kevin's counselor.
And you could also, you know, it's mostly you get a voicemail there, but there's also,
you know, you can ask to speak to the warden or something like that.
Yeah, it is important that people voice their concern here because we are talking about
human life that is suffering even more than being in prison for almost four years
without a trial. So please, if you do call, be responsible and reasonable. I mean,
these are people, too, and we don't want them to get even angrier or more full of retribution to
Kevin. So thanks, Patty, for stopping in and updating us. And of course,
we'll be updating people as the weeks go by. Okay, we managed to get through to our guest
overseas. And boy, what a pain that was. We were doing all kinds of things from weird looking area
codes to weird numbers to actual problems with AT&T. But we did get through in the end. And
we have with us Frank from the Chaos Computer Club. Are you there, Frank?
Hello.
How you doing?
We're a little bit tired, but good.
Well, yes, one o'clock in the morning over there, isn't it?
It's nearly half past two, yes.
Oh, okay. I guess I had the time a little wrong there. All right. Well, we'll make this as quick
as we possibly can then. Recently, a couple of weeks ago, there was a meeting. I'll read
the announcement for the meeting first so people know exactly what it is we're talking about.
Monday, December 28th, members of the legions of the underground will be holding a meeting
this evening, 4 p.m. Pacific time. I guess it doesn't really matter. But the meeting was held
back in December to discuss possible formal and sanctioned attacks against Chinese and Iraqi
data systems in order to protest the human rights policies of both governments. Now,
this has gotten some media attention since that happened. Hackers going out attacking Chinese
and Iraqi sites. And of course, over the past couple of months, there have been
hacked websites in China that have gone on to protest the human rights abuses over there.
But this seemed to be a step beyond that. It seemed to be calling for all-out war against
these two nations. And I understand that people at the Chaos Computer Club
have initiated a response to this. Frank, could you tell us basically what that response is?
Yes, we are very concerned about what the legion of the underground proposed as all-out war because
this was exactly what the people in the information warfare side of the government
in the U.S. and Germany are dreaming about, hackers attacking another state. And so we
decided it's time to get some other hacker groups together with us to discuss this problem
and to have a joint statement on this issue, stating that the Legion of the Underground is
not speaking for a lot of hackers here, but only for a small fraction.
Yes. And in fact, I should point out that 2600 has already agreed to be part of that statement.
Who else has signed up so far?
To this point, The Loft has signed. The Card of the Cow people are discussing it.
Frank is with us. A Spanish group called HispaHack is with us. Pullas from Portugal is with us.
And some other groups are at this point discussing if they're going to sign the statement,
and everybody's invited there.
Now, what is the main problem that you have with people
going out and protesting human rights abuses? Do you see this going beyond that?
The problem is not protest. The problem is if you deliberately go out and try to
sabotage a severe infrastructure of a country, you're doing damage far beyond everything that's
called protest. What you're doing is you're harming people, and you're harming the cause
of the hackers. You're trying to establish information freedom. People from our scene
are going out there and trying to destroy information networks. It's the complete opposite.
And the problem is that hackers could establish themselves as a tool of war with these things.
And if this happens, hackers and hacking will be seen as acts of war.
And this could very quickly lead to another pair of dead hackers.
And of course, you're referring to the recent tragedy over there in Germany.
You want to tell us something about that?
Yes. The case of Tron is not directly connected with
sabotaging someone's infrastructure, but it's a case of a very talented hacker who's
very deep into a chip card hacking and stuff like this, and who has killed himself. It's unclear.
Some people say he has killed himself. Most people think he was killed or at least
driven into suicide. And this guy had a lot of context into industry, into criminal scenes,
whatever. And finally, he was not anywhere to find or to call for four days. And after these
four days, he was found on a tree in a park in Germany. And we're just trying to figure out what
has happened. And there are a lot of traces in every direction. It's very difficult to find a
clue there. That's pretty ominous development coming from over there. Now, I know in the
letter that is being written up, you say that you don't really have a problem with people
hacking web pages. Is that true? That's a statement that has to be discussed.
There are quite different opinions, also in Chaos Club. Some people say, OK, it's not OK to hack
web pages or just modify computers. Other people say, OK, in some cases, it might be legitimate,
if not legal, to track these pages and or maybe to reconfigure a filtering firewall to have people
getting better access from maybe inside China. This is an ongoing discussion. I think this
discussion has to be ongoing in the next days to get something like a point, something like an
updated ethics of hacking into account. But there were hacked web pages in China
over the past couple of months, and that didn't prompt this kind of a response from you.
I guess there's a number of people who think that that's pretty much a legitimate form of
expression, sort of like graffiti or something like that. But what's being discussed here with
this legions of the underground, is that it? OK, I can't keep up with the names.
That's something a bit beyond hacking web pages. What they're calling for is actual destruction of
data systems. Is that it? Yes, that's what they're trying. And we got the impression that
there's only a small group of people who got this idea of especially attacking IRAC. OK,
if you're doing something against the Chinese, that might be arguable because, OK, this is ongoing
for a long time and there are close ties between the US government and the Chinese. But especially
going to the argument, OK, we tried to carry out what our government could not carry out.
It's the worst thing you can do as a hacker, in our opinion. If you're trying to damage
infrastructure, you're not helping the people there, you're damaging people there. Because
free flow of information is what hackers want. If you're destroying information networks,
it's a completely different thing from changing some images on a web server or whatever.
So this has to be very carefully kept apart in our eyes. What would you suggest for someone
who is a hacker that's concerned about these issues? How should they be expressing themselves?
Yes, we are trying to set up some kind of discussion board to go with one or two of
the hacker groups to discuss these issues. I think the statement, when released in the next
days, will give a good focal point for such discussions, all the news groups and IRC chats.
Is there any way people can contact you or become part of these discussions?
Yes, there's an email address, especially for this discussion. It's hacktivism
at berlin.ccc.de. I repeat, it's hacktivism at berlin.ccc.de. People can write their opinions
there. We try to get it into the statement or to get it onto the discussion board there.
Okay, great. We want to thank you for joining us at this late hour. How is everything else
with the Chaos Computer Club these days? It's very busy. We had our congress in
December in Berlin. We had more than 2,000 people here. We were very happy with our party
and our discussions and stuff. It was quite an emotional congress because we discussed our
history and recent things with Tron. Everybody left the place happy. We are sorting things out
right now and trying to get our stuff ready again and set up our networks again. Everybody's quite
happy here. Okay, well, good to hear that. I want to wish you well and keep us updated on this.
Okay. Take care then. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. That was Frank from the Chaos Computer Club
over in Germany. They are distributing a letter, kind of like a petition, I guess, that
pretty much condemns what the Legion of the Underground said in late December that
certain computer systems in certain countries are going to be targeted because of human rights
abuses. I understand people being concerned with things like this, but I think Frank made
some very good points. Once hackers are seen as tools of war, they're going to be seen like that
for a long time and they're going to be used like that. It's kind of playing into the hands
of the authority figures, but we'd like to hear all kinds of views on that particular subject.
Okay, so in other news, and there are a lot of other things going on. We'll be taking phone calls
in just a moment. 212-209-2900. This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've heard in a long time.
It has to do with America Online. This comes from the Wired News Service.
A U.S. Federal District Court judge rejected an effort by America Online to block AT&T's
WorldNet service from using the phrases, you have mail, buddy list, and I am on its service,
according to AT&T. AOL uses a similar phrase, you've got mail, to inform subscribers that email
has been sent to them. AT&T actually wants them to not be able to say, I'm sorry, AOL wants them
not to be able to say you have mail because they say you've got mail. This is the most absurd
instance of corporate greed and irrational behavior I think I've seen in ages.
The ruling came in a hearing on AOL's request for a temporary restraining order and preliminary
injunction against AT&T for trademark infringement. The suit seeks punitive damages. Who knows how
much AOL has been harmed by AT&T saying you have mail. Particularly the term, you have mail,
strikes me as the epitome of a generic mark, said William Bosch, attorney at Boston law firm
Sugarman, Rogers, Barshek, and Cohen in Boston. The particular reason why they quoted that is
the law firm in Boston. I don't know if they're representing anybody here. How do you describe
the concept, you have mail, without using the words you have and mail? Of course, it sort of
makes sense. AOL has been using the phrase, you have mail, since 1989, Primrose said. Now, they
even got it wrong because they used the phrase, you've got mail, not you have mail, right? All
right, so nobody knows what's going on, but come on already. I mean, yeah, all right, you can't go
out and start an online service called America Online, all right, because that name is taken,
but these are words that we use in normal everyday speech. You have mail, you've got mail,
whatever. Let's give this corporate mentality a rest just for a little while.
Unbelievable. I think that's a bigger threat than Y2K is ever going to be, but for those of you who
still believe Y2K is going to be the big major threat, we have plenty of stories for you as far
as that goes. Coca-Cola said on Wednesday it has a plan to ensure that its worldwide distribution
runs smoothly in the face of anticipated year 2000 computer problems, but it has no control
over some elements. Yes, we may be distributing arsenic instead of coke, but these things happen,
you know. We're all ready. We're all ready for whatever happens. Coca-Cola spokesman Bill
Hensel said the readiness of governments is a big issue. In many areas where we do business,
the governments control the phone systems, the power systems, and the water, so there
is a major concern making sure the governments are adequately prepared. It's a big issue.
People are going to need their coke. He added, however, that Coca-Cola was well on its way
to resolving Y2K issues and has backup plans in place.
Coca-Cola has already spent 60 million dollars on Y2K preparedness and anticipates
spending between 130 million and 160 million dollars total.
The Atlanta company in a statement filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission said
its contingency plans include, get this, and some of you out there might want to
take notes, stockpiling raw and packaging materials, increasing inventory levels,
securing alternate sources of supply, and other appropriate measures. It's that latter one that
kind of worries me. This from the Associated Press, the case of a 12-year-old boy who
downloaded dozens of sexually explicit images from a public library's internet computer terminal
has drawn national attention because it's the first in which a library has been sued for not
installing software that blocks pornographic sites. Last month, the city of Livermore,
California, filed its second motion to have the case dismissed. On January 1st,
an Alameda County Superior Court judge will decide whether the Livermore library
is liable for the dissemination of materials that, according to the suit, are harmful to minors.
This minor obviously had to type in the URL to get there in the first place.
I mean, you know, that's part of it. I mean, if you walk into a library and the librarian runs up
to you and forces pornographic material onto you, especially if you don't have a license,
especially if you're 12 years old, okay, I can see that being an issue. I can see someone saying,
that's not right. But a 12-year-old kid goes in, knows how to use a computer,
he can probably figure out a way around any blocking software anyway, and connects to
something that he's not supposed to see. Well, obviously, he knows it's there. Obviously,
he's seen these kinds of things before. He wouldn't be going there.
The librarian walking by, seeing, you know, Debbie does Dallas or whatever on the Mac,
says, no, no, let's go over here instead. Turn that off. Don't put that on your computer. That's
the extent of looking out for someone's public interest. Instead, we make a big national case
out of it. How nice. In October, Alameda County Superior Court Judge George C. Hernandez Jr.
threw out much of the case brought by the boy's mother, identified in court records as Katie,
and identified in court records as Kathleen R. of Concord. You know, people like this worry me.
I mean, what's going to happen? The kid goes to someone's house, does the same thing. Is she
going to sue her neighbor now? Is she going to sue the internet? It's just, it's crazy. Obviously,
he was interested in pursuing this kind of thing, and one way or another, he'll probably
figure out a way to do it. San Jose attorney Michael Millon had argued the city wasted
attractive nuisance by failing to restrict internet use. Yes, the internet is an attractive
nuisance, just like one of those swimming pools where people leave the water out and
idiots go and dive into it. Attractive nuisance. It's a violation of constitutional rights for
the library to hold themselves out as a safe place for children while it is, in fact, harming them.
Millon said he is seeking a city policy that forbids minors from using computer terminals
without parental supervision. What a great idea. Every library will have two people at a terminal,
a child and a parent sitting in the background. What if the parent wants to look at pornography?
You know, that doesn't really solve anything. But Livermore deputy city attorney Gabriel
Whelan said holding the library responsible would set a dangerous precedent. Our position is that a
public library should offer everything under the sun to the public, she said. Libraries in general
should not be put in the position of being a censor. That job is up to each individual family.
The issue of children's access to pornography through computers has resulted in many librarians
in California and across the country placing filters on their systems. Several bills before
the legislature would mandate filtering for children in public libraries. The judge in
the Livermore case, however, agreed with the city's argument that the 1996 Communications Decency Act,
which rewrote laws for the internet age, immunized the city. The city argued that
Congress intended to hold worldwide website providers accountable for the material they
publish electronically, but not third parties such as internet service firms and libraries.
In November, Millen amended his lawsuit alleging the city had violated the boy's constitutional
rights to due process in a way that shocks the conscious. It's the same as if the library had
a razor blade display case, this is great, and allowed children to handle blades and the kids
got cut. It's so outrageous that it rises to the level of constitutional deprivation.
I think this has risen to the level of constitutional depravity, but I'm sure these
analogies will continue to be drawn. Library the razor blade display case, that's lovely.
The actions and policy of the city at a bare minimum display a deliberate indifference to
the health and welfare of children, the attorney wrote in his legal brief, but Assistant City
Attorney Dan Sodergren argued that the city did not violate any constitutional rights and has no
responsibility to protect the boy from the internet. There is no constitutional right to a
safe internet, he argued. To violate the boy's right to due process, the city would have had to
single him out for an abuse of power. And that's what we have to look forward to in the future.
Speaking of America Online, AOL said on Monday that its members spent over $1 billion with online
retailers through the 1998 holiday shopping season. It's clear, said AOL President and Chief Operating
Officer Bob Pittman, it's clear that this past holiday shopping season marks a turning point
point when shopping online really became a key part of consumer shopping patterns.
Though it is a critical time to get new online buyers into the habit,
shopping online isn't just a holiday phenomenon. AOL said 1.25 million of its members shopped
online for the first time this holiday season, and AOL members spent an estimated $1.2 billion
in the period between November 26th and December 27th.
And December 17th was the heaviest shopping day, as well as AOL's best retail day ever,
generating over $36 million in sales of consumer goods and travel-related services.
I miss the days when the net was non-commercial.
Oh well. Here's a fun story. Police are looking for as many as five men who forced their way
into a telephone company office on Sunday and made off with vital computer equipment,
disconnecting phone service for some 75,000 customers. The masked robbers first tried to
use a blowtorch to open the back of one of Sprint's central telephone offices about 8am,
but were unsuccessful. Then, the men knocked on the front door of the office located in southwest
Las Vegas. When an employee opened it, they forced their way in, brandishing handguns and
stun guns. The unidentified victims, two men and one woman, were rounded up, bound,
and shot with stun guns. One victim also was severely beaten. The victims were taken to
University Medical Center for treatment, and one man remained in the hospital Monday with
non-life-threatening injuries. The robbers then went directly to the computer equipment that was
operating the phone system at the time and began removing it. It was clear they knew exactly what
they wanted, Sprint spokeswoman Detra Page told APB News, which is where we're getting this story from.
It was clear they knew exactly what they wanted. The theft left most of Sprint's 100,000 Las Vegas
area customers without phone service for as long as seven hours, while technicians scrambled to
install new equipment and restore service. Phone service to all affected area customers was restored
by mid-afternoon Sunday. Neither Sprint officials nor police would reveal the amount or type of
equipment stolen. Las Vegas police said it's the first time they've heard of such a theft.
It's an unusual crime, said spokesman Steve Merriweather, who did not know of any other
similar cases in the area or whether there was a black market for such specialized equipment.
A spokesman at Sprint's national headquarters in Kansas City said he was unaware of any other cases
of phone company computers being stolen. The incident is under investigation by Las Vegas
police and Sprint's security division, but that's a pretty wacky story right there.
And I'm glad they didn't use the word hacker in it anywhere. That's crime. That's crime involving
computers, involving phones, but it's got nothing to do with hacking. But you know what's funny is
these guys will probably be out before Kevin Mitnick is, and that's just wrong. That's a pretty
sad state of affairs. So I don't know what they were up to. Maybe there were like records in there
that they wanted to grab before somebody else got them. I don't know. Were they going to start
their own phone company someplace? Pretty weird. Finally, before we take some phone calls,
the latest in the corporate merger race, of course, last week we were talking about the
biggest corporate mergers of the year. We left out a rather big one. We left out Exxon and Mobil.
That's a pretty big merger. In fact, what's that? It's not computer related. Why would you want to?
Well, we were talking about corporate mergers. It's kind of relevant, I think. They created
the biggest company ever on earth. You know, that's a pretty scary thing right there.
So that voice, by the way, is the voice of Isaac. Just flew in from Queens. And there are more
mergers yet to come. Bell Atlantic, they're not satisfied yet. They took over 9x. They're in the
process of taking over GTE. Now they want AirTouch. They want AirTouch. They're the largest,
Bell Atlantic, the largest local phone service provider in the United States. They're considering
a $45 billion stock acquisition of AirTouch, the country's biggest wireless phone company.
An agreement could be announced as early as today. Is an agreement announced? I didn't hear
one, but it's possible they might have done it quietly. If the two do merge, the new national
company could rival wireless industry leader AT&T Corp in size, according to analysts. But the thing
is, it's also going to exceed them as far as local phone service and all kinds of other things.
A one-page statement issued by Bell Atlantic and AirTouch, however, said the discussions do not
guarantee a merger will take place. For one thing, they're already partners in a wireless joint
venture called Primeco. But I imagine they'll figure a way out of that. Also, GTE has to approve
the deal before it can be announced, since they're in the process of being taken over as well.
These companies just keep getting bigger and bigger and fewer and fewer. Where does it ever end?
Okay, we have news from the Justin Peterson camp. Well, that's a weird sound. Where's that coming
from? That's my new voicemail. New voicemail? Yes, I've received. Okay, I've never heard that one
before. All right, this is from the Los Angeles Daily News. Computer hacker Justin Peterson's
second stint as a fugitive from the law is over. This time he is facing jail time for his game of
hide-and-seek with the federal government. The former FBI informant Monday made his first trip
to court since he was arrested last month in a Studio City apartment. The one-legged, long-haired,
38-year-old had been a fugitive since September 30th, when U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson
signed a bench warrant for his arrest, asserting that he violated the terms of his supervised
release from an earlier jail sentence. After a short hearing on Monday, Wilson said Peterson's
fate will be determined January 12th. Prosecutors say his run from the law could result in up to 24
months behind bars. Peterson's lawyer Nathan Hockman said his client hasn't admitted or denied
the allegations yet, but probably would have something to say next week. Since Peterson went
on the run in September, he kept anything but a low profile. His answer machine messages still
were returned, and he left a letter on his worldwide web page. Alas, rest assured I am
somewhere having fun with a nice-looking lady, enjoying the first freedom I have felt in some
time, he wrote in November. Peterson also claimed that he had taken a job overseas,
but authorities said he was hiding in the San Fernando Valley all along.
He was arrested without incident on December 11th in Studio City, said U.S. Marshals spokesman
Victor Zamudio. He had been staying in that area. Peterson, who lost a leg in a motorcycle
accident, also was a fugitive from October 1993 to August 1994, after he was accused of computer
hacking into a bank and paying himself $150,000 and phoning in bomb threats to distract bank
officials. He was sentenced to 41 months in prison and served his time, but court records show
that he violated his supervised release agreement when he left the halfway house in August.
It's pretty unbelievable, quite a story. And you know, we've been talking about this on the
on the Mitnick list quite a bit, about this story about, you know,
obviously the whole Mitnick case and the latest problems that Kevin has been having in prison.
One person really kind of summed this up, I think, in a pretty good way.
Exactly what did Kevin Mitnick do that was even comparable to anything Justin Peterson did?
Here we have a six-figure thief who phones in false bomb scares to cover his tracks
and is sentenced to less time than Kevin spends waiting for trial.
What exactly did Kevin do at worst, if every allegation of the government is true? Lie to
a couple of corporate drones in order to convince them to hand him information he could use to copy
something proprietary? How is that even remotely comparable to stealing actual money from actual
people while actively threatening their lives? It's a damn good question.
Maybe someday we'll hear the answer.
212-209-2900 is our phone number.
All right, pick a number from one to eight, and if it's rebel, it's your fault.
What do you say? Five? Okay, all right, five. Good evening, you're on the air.
All right, that's it. Wait a minute. You know, you sound like you think right now, so
I don't know exactly how this happened, but what are you talking through? It sounds like
you're talking through a pot. I'm talking on a payphone. You're talking on a payphone.
Okay, is this a foreign payphone? It's a Bell Atlantic payphone. Does that explain it?
Maybe it does. Okay, let's be quick about this. What's on your mind?
You're talking about hacking websites. There are websites that are not hacked. In other words,
the websites that get hacked, those are the people who don't understand how to secure their
systems, right? Or who have insiders who don't like them. Yeah, something like that.
Okay, when I used to have a website, somebody changed some things on my website.
That's because I didn't know how to set certain things, like the permissions. Is that the same?
Nobody can hack the 2600 website, right? Why do you say something like that? Why do you go on the
air and issue what is pretty much an ultimatum that the 2600 website cannot... Any site can
be hacked. It's possible. You're a fool if you think that it's impossible to hack something.
And I'll be the first person to say that it's certainly possible it could be hacked.
Absolutely.
No, but my point is that, in other words, with the phones. I stay at some motels that you cannot
make free phone calls on the phones because they know that the operators know that it's a hotel
phone. And there's some that you can slip by and you can make a free phone call by having the
operator dial it. You know what I'm saying? See, that's a very simple type of setup. That's
something where either you disallow calls to certain numbers or you allow calls to certain
numbers or there are other numbers that sort of get around the restrictions. Lots of times there
are ways around that, but it's pretty much a yes, no thing on a phone system. It's a lot less
complex than a website or where there are many different ways in there, many different things
you can abuse. And also, even if you don't abuse anything, if you just have access to the system
and someone has to have access to the system, you have the human factor. You have the human factor
where you simply have to get a password and you're in.
Right. But it's just like the people who run the system, they have to be, you know, the people
who have to understand how the system works in order to make it, you know, more secure. That's
what my point is. And also, a lot of pay phones in the country are $0.35 a month.
I guess that was one of them.
All right.
Yeah, I'm looking at one. It says $0.35. And I'm in New York City. Why did this pay phone say $0.35?
The other one said $0.20.
Wait, it's a Bell Atlantic pay phone. It says $0.35. Well, you know, a lot of phones have the
little things on the top. They flip over. And that saves Bell Atlantic money when they raise prices,
because we know that Bell Atlantic, you know, loses money whenever they raise prices. So
in order to stop that, they put the new price on the back. So all they have to do is flip it over.
If you want to help Bell Atlantic out, just go flip it over yourself and then you save them money.
All right. I think he's being terminated over there somewhere in New York City.
No, you don't get to pick any more numbers, because we already got him. All right. I'll
take that one. What was that? Nine? All right. Let's go all the way down there. Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes, hi. You were talking about the issue about the libraries.
Yes.
That, well, I run a couple of adult sites and there's supposed to be a law that came out in
November, I believe.
Yes.
That would prohibit sites from allowing children to visit their sites. They would have to have some
kind of credit card verification. I don't know if you knew anything about that.
Well, you see, there are lots of sites that are free. They don't require credit cards.
That's kind of one. And I'm worried that if they outlaw that in the United States,
I'm going to have to move my servers over to Canada or Europe.
Yes, but you see, it's like the Internet is not really a physical entity. Yes, you could move it
over to Canada. That just means someone's going to have to type .ca afterwards. It doesn't really
make that much of a difference. Really, you know, if you put in some effort and say you have to be
18 or over to go into this part of the, you know, of the website and someone clicks on that,
obviously they're saying they're over 18. And that's, you know, what else can you possibly
be expected to do? Take a picture of their license or something and, you know.
The issue for me is if they had to use a credit card verification,
a lot of people like anonymity, you know, it would go away.
That's true. That is true.
And they'd fear that their credit card would be logged.
You know, their credit card would be used in a malicious manner.
And people looking at pornography on the net are kind of funny about anonymity sometimes.
Right. No, they're very worried about anonymity.
And only maybe 15% of your visitors are actually going to sign up.
Right. But you see, it goes bigger than pornography. This is, you know,
a whole issue as far as people's right to anonymity, period, as far as anything that
they're interested in accessing. Who's going to stand up and defend pornography? Very few
people actually will do that. But it's a foot in the door when all of a sudden you have to
account for yourself. You have to identify yourself when accessing this particular part
of the net. And this can be extended to something else, which a lot of us would want to protect.
Right. And we have to be careful with this.
Right. So the last thing I heard about it was that they postponed the hearings until
December and then December they postponed it for another three months.
So there is an organization to fight against this ruling.
And what's that organization?
WAPO.
OK. Can you give us...
Well, the dot sites against, you know, I'm not really sure for the standing.
OK. Where are they located? Is there a way to...
Well, they're located in the United States.
They have a website.
Right. I'll try to phone in the URL next week.
OK. Just mail it to us and we'll...
Right. I'll email it to you guys and maybe we can post it.
OK. Thanks for calling. Our email address, by the way, oth at 2600.com.
Of course, we want to spread all kinds of information on...
However, these battles are shaping up.
It's really going to get interesting in the next few years.
Good evening.
Whoops.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hey, how you doing?
OK. How are you?
Great. Great program.
I thank you.
I was just curious and maybe this is out of ignorance, but I would like to know,
do you guys ever come out with maybe 10 top best websites that you think are very informative
and on the net at all?
Well, we don't rank them like that because, first of all,
there are so many websites throughout the world.
It would be impossible and unfair to number them in order of what's cool and what isn't.
If we hear something that's good, though, we talk about it.
We either print it in the magazine or we talk about it on the air.
Great. Great. Great.
That's just it. I think it shows great.
Thanks. And of course, if you know of any interesting websites or any
hacked websites, please let us know about those.
We do like to hear about them.
I heard some sites in Chile got hacked in the last week or so.
Some statements about Pinochet were put on there.
And that, to me, that's a legitimate form of political expression.
I mean, how else are you going to get the word out about something that's really pertinent?
You can't print your own newspaper.
And some countries are not even allowed to print your own newspaper.
And meanwhile, you have these websites run by the government that say all these
propaganda things to the rest of the world.
If you have an opportunity to change that and reach the rest of the world and say something else,
who's to say that that's something evil?
Seems to me that's what free speech is all about.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hi. Yeah. How else can you let people know?
Through micro broadcasting.
Well, there's that too.
You're back on the air.
You're back on the air.
Yes.
OK. Can you give us any details as to where we can find you?
Not physically, obviously, but on the radio.
88.7.
Back on the old frequency.
By the way, BAI 99.5 here is the only station that allows us to speak freely like the other stations.
So I do appreciate it.
I would not plug it if you didn't invite me.
Right.
So thank you.
It's 88.7 and still this radio usually from around five or six till 1 a.m.
Great. Well, I'll try to listen tonight.
My show is called Ten Million Flies on Monday night at 10 p.m.
Excellent. Well, good luck to you guys and keep us updated if anything else changes.
Thanks. I certainly will.
All right.
And that's also another interesting battle is going to be taking place in the years ahead.
Micro broadcasting.
There's rumors, actually not really rumors, but, you know,
statements that the FCC is actually thinking of licensing micro broadcasting.
National Association of Broadcasters, NAB, the evil people,
they're the ones that don't want this to happen.
It's a big threat to them and their commercial interests.
They want companies to be owning 500 radio stations or more
and a 20 watt radio station broadcasting to a city is a big threat to them.
Well, that's the FCC actually is smart enough to realize that that's wrong
and maybe they will serve a purpose after all.
We'll just have to see how that pans out.
But micro broadcasting is something that I think is going to be one
of the most important issues in the months and years ahead.
212-209-2900.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hey, man, it's Farah.
Hi, how you doing?
Good. I have two questions to ask.
Go ahead.
First, I was wondering, is there a legal penalty
against putting free cabin stickers on stop signs or any kind of signs like that?
Well, gee whiz, you know, everything carries a penalty.
You know, it depends on how badly they want to get you.
If you drive one mile over the speed limit, you know, you could get arrested for that.
If, you know, there's literally anything.
Just ask Bernie S, any minor thing.
If they really want to get you, they'll get you for it.
I have never heard of anybody being arrested
or gotten into trouble for putting a sticker on a stop sign,
although I'm sure there are people out there who have.
So I can't advise it, but I really don't think we're talking about a major crime here.
Okay.
Second, is there a maximum time Kevin can stay at MDC?
You would think there would be.
Isaac, do you know something about this?
Well, if he terminates before he's actually brought to trial, that would kind of be.
Yeah, okay.
That's thanks.
Thanks for that insight there.
But I don't, you know, I would hope that there would be,
but I've heard figures from people inside the prison.
Of course, this is secondhand that I've heard this.
They say we can hold people up to 10 years, you know, pre-trial.
It's insane.
And I don't, I don't doubt it after seeing what's going on here.
I mean, we're up to almost four years now.
It's got to stop sometime.
It really has to stop and it has to stop soon.
Yeah. Okay.
That's all I wanted to know.
Okay. Thanks a lot.
I really appreciate people having an interest in getting the word out.
And my thanks go out to all the people who have been doing that over the past,
however many years you've been involved in, because it has made a big difference.
It might not be apparent right now, but it is, it does make a big difference.
Kevin feels this every time we see one of those stickers someplace, it means something.
It gets out to more people.
And in the end, it's what's going to make the difference.
All right.
Let's take another phone call.
Let's go all the way over.
You know, this is the very last call.
I'm going to take this one.
This person called in very late.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yes.
Good evening.
Could you tell me, could you tell me your prediction of where a computer business would
be in the next a hundred years or so?
Oh, that's a, that's a hard question.
How can I pot?
I mean, let's take it down to 25 years.
Yeah.
Cause think of like where the computer business was a hundred years ago.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's changed quite a bit.
It's probably going to change even more.
Um, I see.
I'm not really in the computer business, so to say.
So I don't know.
It's going to radically change.
It's going to be different than anything we could possibly imagine.
And anybody here have a prediction?
Nobody.
That's almost impossible to answer.
Do you have any, any, any ideas?
I want to know, do you think hacking will always be?
Okay.
Hacking is always going to exist in some form that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm certain of there is
hacking before computers, someone playing around with technology, you know, whether
it's discovering electricity or just, you know, playing around with the first television
set or the first radios, that's a form of hacking.
It's, it's, it's just, you know, experimenting with things that there are no real rules about.
And people who don't understand will constantly be misinterpreting what it is you're trying to do.
But if you're willing to waste a lot of time and just do something methodical and repetitious,
that's a form of hacking.
And I think, yeah, that's going to exist in some form.
And more than that, I think people outside the hacking world will begin to realize how
important it is to have that kind of mentality in order to progress and actually learn something
to the benefit of everyone.
Yes, I agree.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for calling.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook.
Hello.
Yes.
I'm calling you with a 1010 502 pound.
And I wanted to ask you how safe or unsafe that might be.
Well, I imagine it would be pretty safe, but I guess you're not making a normal call.
It sounds like you're making maybe a free call.
Illegal call here that we're talking about.
You're making a.
You know, I'm sorry.
I was just chucking quarters in, but that 1010 502 pound works for me for local.
And I've heard other people say it works for them otherwise.
So I don't know anything about it.
That's what I'm asking.
Well, I don't know what company that is.
Do they, do they announce who they are?
No, they don't.
Okay.
So basically you're saying that if you dial 1010 502, you have to dial the pound to get an operator
or 1010 502 pound then comes on a long beep for maybe 20 seconds or so.
But during the beep, you dial the error code in the number.
Really?
And it just goes through from a payphone even.
Did you try it from a payphone?
Yeah, I tried for a payphone local-wise.
It worked.
Uh-huh.
Well, you know, we'll give it a shot.
You know, we'll see if it works.
I'm sure it's not going to work from here because we have a weird phone system,
but I'll certainly try it from outside and see if it works.
It's 1010 502?
Yep.
Okay.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
And thanks for the tip because you might be saving us lots of money.
Let's, let's see what happens here.
1010 502.
Why do I sound like I'm in a tunnel?
All right.
Let's, let's figure out who they are first.
I wonder if our phone system could even handle this.
I think I've crashed the whole thing.
No response whatsoever.
What do you think is happening?
I think it's dead, Jim.
I've killed the phone system.
Okay.
Well, gee whiz.
We'll have to try this from outside from a normal phone.
Oh, well, wait a minute.
He did say to try the pound sign thing.
So let's try that.
See if that works.
See, I think what's happening here, I think our phone system is catching it
and preventing these numbers from actually getting out.
We're being held hostage.
Yeah, that's what's happening.
All right.
Well, speaking of being held hostage, we've held our listeners hostage long enough.
We're out of here until next week.
And I believe we're doing a fundraiser.
So get your checkbooks ready, folks, because it's time to pay us back for all the knowledge
we've been giving you over the past however many months you've been listening.
And of course, we'll be updating people on Y2K as that draws ever closer.
And then the Kevin Mitnick situation as things get updated in that particular area as well.
Until then, this is Emanuel Goldstein for Off The Hook.
Bear with us.
The theme is hiding.
Yeah, we only have one working theme machine.
So we have to swap things around.
But there's a theme.
And next time you hear that, it'll be next week at this time.
And until then, it's Emanuel Goldstein.
Good night.
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