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In New York City, there are 700,000 children who live in poverty.
Almost half the children in the city are living in poverty, so 44% of the children...
The Committee Against Anti-Asian Violence released a report documenting what they say
is a pattern of police abuse in Asian-American communities.
If my son was shot in the back, then the officer should be arrested.
This kind of ineffective and, at times, incompetent behavior by NYPD.
They shot my son in the back.
He always...
Someday, the times will stumble upon this tragedy.
Robertson, an African-American plainclothes transit officer, was shot several times in
the back by a white off-duty officer, Peter DelDevio, who mistook him for a police officer.
This is a call from an inmate at a correctional facility.
It's amazing to me how we can always afford another policeman to build another prison.
This cut that the mayor is instituting will destroy the ability to care for all the citizens
of New York.
The WBAI Evening News, Monday through Friday at 6 p.m.
That's the WBAI Evening News every weekend at 6, the only news that will force you to
pull over in your car and wait until it's over.
Right now, though, it's 8 o'clock and time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
Uh-oh.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself off straight then.
Now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
For Billy Bond, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
For Billy Bond!
Okay, this isn't a very good sign, so we're going to kind of fade this away gracefully
while we still can.
Fade it to something a little bit more appropriate.
Play some carefully again.
I'm sure I'll go out with things that fit.
Play some carefully again.
I'm sure I'll go out with things that fit.
I'm sure I'll go out with things that fit.
I'm sure I'll go out with things that fit.
Play some carefully again.
Well, I hate it when things go wrong, don't you?
It's really kind of scary sometimes.
But you know what else bothers me is that our theme is still spinning.
Hang on, let me go rescue it.
Okay, it's still alive.
It's still there in some form.
We have these devices called cart machines that are kind of archaic
and sometimes they eat carts,
and we don't want that to happen to our special theme here.
The program is off the hook.
Emmanuel Goldstein here with you tonight.
We have with us on the phone Bernie S.
Bernie, you there?
I am.
Hey, by the way, that sounded better than what I hear in most radio stations.
Well, you didn't hear what happened at the beginning,
because you weren't with us.
It started to really sound like it was about to, you know,
break or snap or something like that.
That would have been a tragedy,
one that would have stayed with us for the rest of our lives,
but fortunately that did not happen, at least not yet.
Anyway, it's been a while since we've heard from you,
and actually I saw you a couple of weeks ago,
but the people on the air didn't.
Yeah, we had a fun weekend.
We did, we certainly did.
We visited some scary places, including, oh gosh,
I still have nightmares about this place.
A federal prison in the middle of a city.
I just can't get used to it.
But you guys down there in Philadelphia,
you think you can make it work, huh?
Well, I don't think it's workable, but they'll make it work.
I mean, people aren't getting out of this place.
It's a $200 million facility.
No, my mistake, it's a $70 million facility
designed to hold approximately 200 prisoners.
You can work out the math and see how economical that is.
Well, it shows that we spare no expense for the people
that we want to keep locked away.
You know, it's interesting, though.
I saw people walking around that building,
the building that said we're not allowed to take photos of it.
That is what it says, isn't it?
It did.
I did some research on that.
Apparently there is no such law.
Even the people of the Bureau of Prisons in Washington
were hard-pressed to come up with any actual law
that said it's illegal to take pictures of...
Well, of course there's no such...
I mean, it would be just as ridiculous as saying,
well, you can't take pictures of the moon.
It's a security hazard, you know, or something like that.
It's nonsense.
But people actually follow these rules,
and I imagine there's more such rules within the walls
than outside the walls.
It's just one of these say-so things, because we say so.
Pretty much.
But the thing is, what they fail to realize is that
they can't say so to the people that they can control,
and that's most of us, fortunately, still.
We're still not controlled by the people in there.
However, we may be controlled by the mentality,
the prison mentality, which pretty much penalizes you
for anything that you might happen to do.
And it's spreading. It's getting bigger.
I believe you had some scary statistics.
Do you still have those statistics as to where it's going,
the number of people that are being in prison,
the percentages, things like that?
As far as minorities go,
while I was in the federal prison in Fairton, New Jersey,
I remember reading a New York Times article
someone sent me a clipping of, actually, while I was there.
A lot of good people out there kept me in touch
with the outside world by sending me newspaper clippings,
and this was a depressing one, but it hit home.
It said by the year 2005,
at the current rates of incarceration,
by the year 2005,
over 50% of African-American males
between ages of 18 and 35 would be incarcerated.
That's more than half.
Most of them.
Incarcerated?
No, this was actually physically detained
in a facility.
More than half.
Most African-Americans between 18 and 35,
and that starts to affect the gene pool
for however you feel about that.
That's an amazingly large percentage
of a particular cultural background
being locked up in a country that's supposedly free.
I have to say, that's almost an unbelievable statistic.
Where exactly did you get this from?
This is from the New York Times.
The New York Times.
They were merrily extrapolating the current increases
in levels of incarceration over the past 10 years.
The curve is just going up at a phenomenal rate.
They said by the year 2005,
if things go at the current rate,
and they're building prisons left and right,
as you witnessed yourself a couple of weekends ago
here in Philadelphia.
I think we all know, too,
that the drug laws, for instance,
are enforced not exactly evenly
as far as income level and race and things like that.
If you're a poor black person,
you're much more likely to be sent to prison
for a minor drug offense
than, say, a rich white person from Connecticut.
That, too, and then there's the sentencing guidelines
are different for what's referred to as crack cocaine
versus powdered cocaine,
which I don't see a big difference between them,
but the sentences are 10 times,
well, not the sentences, but the levels,
the numbers that are used to calculate
the severity of sentence are 10 times greater
for crack as compared to regular cocaine.
And because that seems to be statistically
a drug of choice among African Americans
who use coca-based drugs,
then you could argue that that's
an ethnic discriminatory kind of thing.
But who knows?
Well, it goes beyond that, too.
I mean, not just drugs,
but say you toss your kid into a garbage pail.
If you're a rich white kid from New Jersey,
all of a sudden the whole community rallies around you
and News Channel 4 does all kinds of specials on you
and things like that.
But if, say, you live in the Bronx
and you're not of white complexion,
you just wind up in prison for the rest of your life
and nobody thinks twice about it.
It could happen.
But who's to say who's right and who's not?
Anyway, why are we talking about this?
This is a hacker show.
What are we talking about crime and prisons for?
Well, because increasingly hackers are being drawn
into the world of prisons and crime
and it's not really the choice of the hackers.
It's the choice of the government pulling them in.
Hugh Bernie is a perfect example of that.
Someone who is minding your own business
and suddenly turned into a maximum security prison.
Prisoner, rather.
In a maximum security prison.
Dealing with underworld crime figures,
murderers, rapists,
all kinds of cafe society like that.
And father rapers.
Yeah.
We even had a couple of those.
But that's all behind us now.
For you, anyway.
It's still very much with us in the form of Kevin Mitnick
and who knows who else in the future.
An update on Kevin's case.
Well, there is no real update on Kevin's case.
If you look at the website,
you'll see that for him to read
all of his evidence by trial date of January 19th,
he'll have to go through something like 40,000 pages a day.
He still has not seen a single page of this.
His lawyer still has not even started to look at this
from what I understand.
And that's really troubling.
It tells me, and this is just me personally saying this,
it tells me that his lawyer is counting on the trial not happening.
He's counting on the trial, say, being plea bargained.
And I have to know Kevin is not going to plea bargain,
at least not at this stage in his life.
Maybe he'll be broken in the weeks ahead.
I hope not.
Well, if his lawyer is going on prior statistics,
the federal government has a 97% conviction rate,
a 97% successful conviction rate.
Ninety-five percent of the cases that they bring about
are a result of a plea bargain.
Now, you wonder why that is.
Are they just always right?
Well, it turns out, no.
The reason being, I believe,
is that the federal sentencing guidelines are so severe
that people have a choice between going to trial and if they've,
generally before they even get to the trial stage,
they've gone through several hearings.
By that point, they see the handwriting on the wall
when the police or prosecutors literally commit perjury,
and you realize, hey, this trial is not going to be fair.
You have a choice between having what you believe is going to be an unfair trial
or pleading guilty and getting a lesser sentence
than you would if you were found guilty.
If you're found guilty, you get the absolute maximum sentence
they can possibly throw at you.
If you plead guilty, they maybe will cut it in half,
which is still an outrageous sentence,
but you take your choice.
So it's a pretty draconian system the way it's set up.
I think everybody has an example in their lives
where they're accused of something they didn't do
and they wound up having to sort of make up for it
even though they knew they were innocent.
But just to make things easier, to make it go away,
they agreed to behave or something like that
or just stay out of trouble because they supposedly got in trouble before.
What most people forget is that the criminal justice system
really has very little to do, or anything to do,
well, it has something to do with it, but very little to do, I found,
with right or wrong or justice or common sense or logic, compassion,
any of those things.
It just has to do with the prosecutor doing whatever they have to do to win
and your defense attorney doing whatever he or she has to do to win.
And it just unfortunately comes down to that kind of a game.
I mean, truth just takes a holiday.
Truth really has no bearing in these proceedings,
just like an irrelevant item. It's weird.
It's coincidental. Maybe you'll happen upon it along the way.
Maybe you won't.
I also think it has a lot to do with fueling the public's desire for revenge.
Revenge against what? I don't really know.
But there's this perception out there that criminals are running rampant,
that the laws are being bent to accommodate them.
They're playing tennis at these country clubs
when in actuality they're at their prisons.
It's something political.
It's what comes out on Election Day, before Election Day a lot of times,
where politicians have to fight crime.
They're seen as very tough on crime,
and they don't really care about the innocent people that get swept up along the way.
I don't think anybody got reelected based on their arguing for more sensible prison reform
from the standpoint of trying to decrease the number of people in prison
or to give people opportunities to do things other than commit crimes
when they get out, that sort of thing.
It's a popular political stance to take, and politicians realize that.
Okay, we're going to read a couple of news stories here
and update people on what's been going on in the world of computers and hackers and crime
and all that kind of thing.
Then we'll be taking phone calls in a little bit as well.
Plus we have some other interesting little tidbits to pass along your way.
Here's an update. This is dated November 5th.
Two California teenagers who mounted one of the most systematic hack attacks ever
on U.S. military computers have received their official sentence from a federal judge.
Death.
No, wrong story. I'm reading the future.
No, no more computers. That's what it is.
What do you think about that, Bernie? No more computers.
Well, does that include using a microwave oven that has a microprocessor in it?
Well, no, I think they're a bit more reasonable, more rational in this particular case.
U.S. District Judge Maxine Chesney ordered the two, aged 16 and 17, to keep their...
You know, this is a Reuters story and I feel like an idiot reading it, but I'm going to read it anyway.
To keep their cyber noses clean during their three-year probation,
the U.S. Attorney's Office announced on Thursday.
The defendants will attend school and make their grades, the office said,
reporting the conditions of probation imposed during Wednesday's closed sentencing session.
The judge forbade the hackers from possessing or using a computer modem,
from acting as computer consultants,
and from having any contact with computers out of sight of a school teacher,
a librarian, an employer, or other person approved by the probation officer.
Chris Andrian... What if they become a librarian themselves?
I don't know. Chris Andrian, a lawyer for one of the boys,
said Thursday the judge had been wise to pull the plug.
So here you have the lawyer agreeing with that.
That is the punishment aspect. It is like taking their toy away from them, Andrian said.
But I think the order should stick. They have been sufficiently frightened and humiliated.
They don't want to run back into the arms of the law.
The two hackers, who have not been officially identified,
pleaded guilty in July to charges of juvenile delinquency
stemming from a string of cyber attacks in February,
which set alarm bells ringing over the state of U.S. computer security.
They were also ordered to serve 100 hours of community service
to pay $4,330 and $1,195, respectively,
in restitution to institutions and companies damaged by their intrusions.
Each of them could have been put into custody until their 21st birthday.
But this sentence was the result of plea agreements,
which included the no computer provision.
I'll bet these guys had lawyers that they really paid a lot of money for.
If they had been in the position of, say, you or Kevin Mitnick,
where you didn't have the funds for a really super-duper defense,
they probably would have been sent to prison and seen as public enemy number one.
Their lives would have been destroyed.
Were they tried as juveniles?
Or were they being prosecuted as juveniles or as adults?
I would imagine they were prosecuted as juveniles since their names haven't been released.
Yeah. That may be why there's a closed—
I was wondering why there was a closed hearing as well for the sentencing.
Probably because they're juveniles.
I think it's because they're juveniles and probably because their parents had money
and they could afford confident attorneys that probably had a lot to do with their sentences.
There was another case that just happened this past week, actually,
and this really bothered me.
It was a case of—I don't have it in front of me—
a case of, I think, a 16-year-old, maybe even someone younger,
who was accused of downloading child pornography from the Net.
Now, what a great way to ruin somebody's life,
to publicly chastise them for what they choose to look at that's available on the Internet.
I mean, this person was never accused of putting it there.
All he did was, either in curiosity or whatever,
he downloaded files, downloaded pictures, you know?
You download really weird-looking things sometimes when you're in school
just to, you know, shock people maybe or just to see how shocking it gets.
And here they are. They're putting him on TV and newspapers
and, you know, bringing his parents and friends and teachers into it.
It's horrible.
I mean, it's a lot more twisted than anything he could have been doing with the pictures
to publicly humiliate somebody like that at that stage of life, you know?
Something's wrong there. Don't look at this.
I'm reading all these stories and nobody's pointing to that aspect of it.
They're like, you know, oh, he downloaded these pictures,
therefore he's trafficking in them, therefore he's responsible for them.
You know, it's like opening a book that's deemed objectionable by a certain society
and all of a sudden being blamed for all the thoughts and ideas that are in it,
whether or not you even agree with the thoughts and ideas that are in it, you know?
Why would a 16-year-old be downloading pictures like that in the first place, you know?
16-year-olds tend to be curious and, you know, rebellious and things like that.
Who knows what the reasons are?
Is it really any of our business?
I don't know. I have a lot of trouble with that.
So that was two cases.
Now we also have, this is kind of interesting,
a new set of federal regulations requiring Internet service providers
to register immediately with the U.S. government
lest they be held legally liable for pirated material that flows through their servers.
Bernie, do you know something about this?
I think I sent you a clip about that.
Well, that's why I'm asking, yeah.
Oh, okay.
Tell us what you know about this.
Honestly, I didn't do any research on it.
It's just something I read on the Internet, so it must be true.
No, actually, I think that it's either being voted on this week
or it already has been voted on and passed,
but it's a foregone conclusion it'll pass
because there's not a lot of lobbying against it.
There should be, but people who care about civil rights
don't seem to have the money to lobby against such things.
Anyway, yeah, apparently Internet service providers
are going to have to register with the federal government
so that account information and so forth
would be available to various federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies
should they decide to investigate a case.
They can just tell the ISP to hand over the logs
and or provide access to what's going on.
Not only that, but the ISPs have to pay a $20 filing fee to do this.
I think that's a standing insult to injury.
You make a regulation and you force people to pay for the regulation.
It's really amazing.
I'd like to know from people out there if they're going to go along with this
because it's a rather insidious thing where they make you register,
but then they use the registration for some other purpose.
Who knows what they'll use it for down the road.
It's like everybody who is a writer has to register,
otherwise you can't write.
Everybody who performs this kind of service has to register
or you could face penalties in the future.
The wording kind of scares me.
Something else I was checking out today is that the FCC is considering
classifying IP telephony services such as...
What company was that?
We had a conversation over the station with...
Yeah, IDT.
IDT. IDT. Companies like that may well be liable to fall under the rules of CALEA
or the Digital Telephony Bill that requires all telephony providers
to provide backdoor law enforcement access to call information
and to the calling traffic itself.
So if you make your phone call over the Internet,
you also could be under surveillance without your knowledge.
That's something to be considered.
And there are very stiff penalties for telephony providers
who don't comply with that, something like $10,000 a day or something.
So it's getting to be a strange world.
You have to wonder what's the reason for all this.
Why are they doing this?
Well, either they know something we don't know about things getting really bad
or they're just control freaks.
I think it's both, actually.
Speaking of things getting really bad,
it's time now for the Year 2000 section of the program, Countdown to Doom,
which we focus on every now and then as time warrants.
A secret cabinet disaster unit only activated in times of dire civil emergency,
such as nuclear leaks, hostage situations, or foreign invasion,
is to be mobilized on December 31, 1999,
to cope with the fallout from the Millennium Bug.
This story comes from England.
The Home Secretary, Jack Straw, also will be put on alert
to coordinate a strategy to cope with chaos on Britain's roads, airports, and hospitals.
The government fears that the ordinary emergency services
will be unable to deal with the mayhem caused by the possible national shutdown
of lifts, air traffic control systems, and hospital equipment.
It plans to put the Civil Contingency Unit,
run by a secretive cabinet group known as COBRA,
on alert to deal with the situation.
This is not funny. I don't know why people are laughing.
It's called COBRA. Okay, that's the name of it.
The unit which has the power...
No, you got me laughing.
The unit which has the power to assemble the heads of the Army, Navy,
Royal Air Force, Security Services, and SAS
for emergency strategy meetings
was last mobilized in 1994 during a training exercise
to prepare for a possible nuclear attack by terrorists.
So that story comes to us from the net.
Bernie, what do you think of all this year 2000 brouhaha?
It's an awful lot of hysteria.
I think a couple of months ago, our own Secretary of Defense,
or the undersecretary of defense, mentioned the term martial law,
and that was something that was under consideration
as far as contingency planning for year 2000 turnover here in this country.
I just saw a documentary about that, where martial law takes place in Brooklyn,
and I believe the conclusion was it didn't work.
This was a documentary about it actually happening?
Yeah, it had that guy Denzel Washington in it.
That's a documentary?
Bruce Willis. I thought it was a documentary.
It was presented so realistically that what else could it be?
What?
Okay.
Well, good. I hope it doesn't work.
No, I took notes, and I can see exactly why this kind of thing is very ill-advised.
Well, we don't have long to wait.
That's for sure. Just over a year now.
Just over a year until the world ends or whatever happens.
I don't know. It's going to be fun, though.
If anybody has specific suggestions for what to do, let us know.
All sports events will take place as scheduled, though.
I was asked to pass that along.
Okay. We have some more news from the hacker world.
It seems that Agent Steele, known as Justin Peterson,
well, Justin Peterson actually, known as Agent Steele, is again on the run.
That's right.
We just found out about this a couple of days ago,
but if you recall, a couple of months ago when we were in California,
we discovered that Agent Steele had been imprisoned again for a probation violation.
Well, it seems now it's gotten a little worse.
A warrant was issued for his arrest on September 30th,
and it has to do with him not meeting the terms of his probation,
whether that means paying restitution, doing community service,
showing up at the appointed places at the appointed times.
My understanding is he got sick of it, and he's now overseas somewhere.
That's going to be interesting to see how that pans out.
This is similar to Kevin Mitnick's situation when he went on the run.
Isn't it, though? I mean, it's so ironically similar.
However, this guy, first of all, they were keeping this very quiet
until somebody went and looked up the court records.
This guy had been used as a key witness against Kevin,
not to mention he was one of the key people that tried to entrap Kevin,
and here you have somebody who basically does worse things,
gets lighter sentences, and gets away scot-free.
I'm not saying that this guy should be locked up, drawn in court, and all that kind of thing.
Anytime somebody escapes, I don't know, I think it's a victory for the individual.
But in this case, it's a tough decision. It really is.
I don't really know what to make out of this,
but it's a very interesting story that he's on the run yet again,
and people are pointing at Kevin as the criminal that deserves to be locked up forever.
Well, they'll probably just put Agent Steele's time on top of Kevin Mitnick's sentence.
He's not available.
It was all his fault. He gave him distress or something like that.
One final news item from Holland.
Access for All has been summoned to appear in court in Utrecht on November 20, 1998,
in connection with its refusal to assist with an Internet tap.
If you recall, November 1997, Access for All refused to comply with an order of the Ministry of Justice
to tap the Internet communications of one of its users in connection with a criminal investigation.
Access for All takes the view that there are insufficient legal grounds for the order.
Access for All therefore regards the order as an illegal method of investigation.
On October 31, 1997, a detective and a computer expert from the Forensic Science Laboratory
delivered the order to Access for All.
The Ministry of Justice wanted Access for All to tap all Internet communications to and from the user for a month
and pass that information on to the police.
This would cover email, World Wide Web, newsgroups, IRC, all other Internet services used by this person.
Access for All was to make all necessary technical provisions itself.
Access for All does not wish to cooperate with invasions of privacy without an adequate legal basis.
Furthermore, Access for All has a commercial interest in that it cannot risk its users
taking civil actions against it for acting unlawfully.
This could happen in the event of a provider making an intervention like this without a foundation in law.
Cooperating with the order could set an undesirable precedent
with far-reaching consequences for the privacy of all Internet users in the Netherlands.
The Ministry of Justice based its order on Article 125i of the Netherlands Code of Criminal Procedure.
This article was introduced in 1993 as part of the Computer Crime Act.
It gives examining magistrates the power, during preliminary inquiries,
to order third parties to hand over data stored in computers in the interest of reaching the truth.
The history of the legislation shows that it was never intended that this provision should be used for orders covering future periods.
The legislature is still working on provisions to fill that gap in the arsenal of investigation methods
by analogy with the tapping of telephone conversations.
The Constitution and the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms
require a precise legal basis for any invasions of fundamental rights,
such as privacy and the privacy of correspondence.
The First Chamber has very recently passed the new Telecommunications Act.
This means tapping Internet communications will become legally possible in the near future.
At a conference organized by Access for All in February 1998,
it was clear that lawyers and market participants are very critical of this new legislation.
For example, the government has never said just why large-scale tapping, including Internet communications,
is supposed to be an effective and cost-effective method of investigation.
A recent report commissioned by the European Parliament shows that the European Union has collaborated with the American FBI
to plan an extensive European tapping network without consulting national parliaments.
The new Telecommunications Act creates the necessary conditions for such a network.
So very ominous developments out of Holland there,
but also very inspirational the way Access for All is standing up to this travesty.
The case against Access for All will be heard on Friday, November 20th, 11 a.m. in Utrecht, the Netherlands.
We'll be following that case for you.
And hopefully that will inspire other people to stand up to this kind of thing,
because I know that Internet service providers are very often faced with difficult decisions.
They're told to cooperate, turn over logs, basically become a spying agency for the federal government,
and it's something a lot of us don't want to do.
Well, oftentimes they're not given a choice.
They're that or go to jail or pay fines that are just outrageous.
Well, you see, that is a choice. I know it's a difficult choice,
but sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in, and maybe there's a heavy penalty for doing that.
But if you don't stand up for it, the penalty gets even heavier over the years, and it affects a lot more people.
I've got some good news.
Okay. Well, I don't know. I don't have any more here.
I've got some here.
Okay.
In Finland, there's some good news from Finland.
It was just announced a couple days ago.
They have announced, the government of Finland has announced a new national cryptography policy.
And Finland, Finlandish, is it? Finlandish?
Well, I think they're just called Finns, actually.
Yes. The Finnish government, not that they're Finnish,
has ordered in a unanimous court decision, or unanimous lawmaking body, whatever they call their congress,
that there should be no restrictions on the use of strong encryption for confidentiality purposes.
There should be no mandatory key recovery systems either, at least not provided for by law.
Businesses and private persons should be encouraged to use voluntary key management systems.
However, they are not obliged to do so by law, and there will be no special privileges or rights offered by public authorities for that purpose.
They have to honor previous agreements they've made with other governments, and that's left kind of vague.
It says here, with regard to exports and export restrictions, Finland observes those arrangements to which it is internationally committed.
However, with regard to reform of control lists and procedures,
Finland's aims are to examine the restrictions on cryptographic products so that control lists correspond to technical development,
and to ensure that the necessary restrictions will not unreasonably impede normal trade or industry and businesses.
So basically, unlike our government, which has been, our FBI head, Louis Freeh,
has been arguing and lobbying hard in Congress and before the Senate to require a mandatory key escrow.
And I think all our listeners pretty much understand what that means, doesn't it?
Well, yeah, it's one positive development.
Maybe the FBI hasn't reached over to Finland yet, but don't be surprised to see this change in the months ahead.
But we should keep track of all the positive and negative developments.
Anyway, thanks for that update.
We have Isaac here as well.
Isaac, how are you doing?
I'm just fine.
How are you doing, sir?
Well, I'm fine.
I'm pretty good.
But I'm also a little confused because we had a little incident before the show concerning our Sprint phones.
And I know Bernie has a lot to say about his Sprint phone.
We'll allow him to do that in just a moment, and then we'll take some phone calls.
But now you had – well, I just want – we should just play this, right?
Yeah, it should be self-explanatory.
I mean, this is – it's kind of scary, kind of frightening.
Hang on a second.
Let me see if I can get another dial tone here.
I hope I don't lose Bernie.
If I do, I'll call him right back.
Okay.
We have a dial tone there, and we're going to start dialing on it.
We're going to dial your Sprint PCS number.
Oh, I guess we're – oh, okay.
That was our special tone.
Here we go.
And now I know your password.
Yes, isn't that frightening?
Yeah.
I also keep single-character root passwords on all my machines.
Your phone should start ringing now, actually, in the studio.
It is, except I have the ringer off.
That's very considerate.
A lot of people don't do that when they come into the studio.
Yeah, especially when there's, like, an active mic.
Why don't you – oh, you can't send it to voicemail.
We have to sit through all these rings.
Yes, this is Sprint again.
Yeah.
Now, OmniPoint, you could send to voicemail, which is kind of interesting.
I have something to say about OmniPoint, too, but I'll get to that in a moment.
Okay, how many rings does it take?
It should be the last one.
It's typically four or five.
Yep, missed the call.
Okay, you missed the call.
Here we go.
Hi, I can't answer the phone right now.
All right.
Hi there.
Were you laughing when you said your name?
No, that was Bernie.
Oh, okay.
Now, Bernie, you must remain quiet because this is going to confuse us otherwise.
Now, let's listen to this message.
Was I supposed to hit a pound?
No new messages.
One saved message.
First saved message from –
Please don't press that button.
Received at 7.
That's my name.
That's me.
8 p.m.
Now, listen to this.
This message was received by you, by me, from me at 7.38 p.m.
Correct.
Which was about 20 minutes before the show.
Yes.
And it sounds – what do you make of these sounds?
To tell you the truth, I have no idea.
Though, towards the end, you can actually hear an announcer or some kind of television program, which is kind of strange.
Well, okay, here's the situation.
At this particular point in time, I can verify that I was on a subway.
I was on a subway train.
I was not above ground, because as soon as I got above ground, I called Bernie S.
Bernie, did I not call you?
Yes.
Yes, okay.
He's there to prove that.
And on my phone, I have a log.
It says what I called and what time I called.
There is no call to your number.
Listen to that.
It is very creepy.
Erase.
Press 7.
Quality audio.
Press 9.
Okay, hang on a second.
You didn't erase that, did you?
No, I didn't erase that.
I would never erase that.
Are you still there?
I am.
Now, about that same time, about half an hour before the show, I was calling you, Emmanuel,
on your Sprint phone from my Sprint phone.
And we all have bad luck with Sprint phones, I guess.
I was just hearing a ring, the ringback.
In between the ringback, I was hearing a loud buzzing sound in between the rings.
And it was very bizarre.
A buzzing sound?
A buzzing sound, like a loud hum, buzz.
I've never heard it before.
But in between the rings, it was like a loud hum, buzz that wasn't happening during the rings.
And then I called a local number, and that wasn't happening at all.
A local Sprint PCS number from a friend of mine, and I wasn't getting it.
So it was something to do with the New York system.
It was having all kinds of weird things going on with it.
That is most peculiar.
Well, now, I can add to that.
There is something else that happened earlier today.
There is a reason I wanted to forward one of my office lines, one of my office lines,
one of my office lines to one of my portable phones.
So I tried to forward it to my Sprint phone.
It worked fine, except here's how it works.
It's kind of complicated.
I actually wanted to forward two lines in tandem, I guess.
You know, call line A, line A forwards to line B, line B forwards to line C.
Reason being, line B calling line C has a better call rate than line A,
but the person I'm expecting a call from is only going to call line A.
So I can't have line A go to C because then I'll pay for it.
I can't have him call B because I can't tell him to call B since I'm here using phone number C right now.
So he's going to call A, it's going to forward to B, and it's going to forward to C,
and then it'll get me on my phone.
Right? Is that simple, right?
It makes perfect sense.
Perfect sense.
So here's the thing.
I tested it.
First, I did B to C, and I tested it, and it worked just fine.
Then I forwarded A to B, and I tested it.
A did forward to B.
But here's the weird thing.
When A forwarded to B and then forwarded to C,
it terminated in a Sprint error recording saying that,
we're sorry, your call cannot be completed as dialed.
Goodbye.
And apparently, Sprint has some sort of limitation.
You guys might want to try this.
If you forward twice, it can't complete the call.
Cannot complete the call at all.
Isn't that weird?
Why would they do that?
I don't know.
I don't think they did it intentionally.
But I can actually, if there's a way to do this,
do you have somebody with OmniPoint phone?
Okay, it's in French though.
For some reason, my OmniPoint phone started speaking French.
I don't know why I dropped it
and just reverted to the wrong language.
It's kind of cool, but it's also kind of annoying.
I want to forward this phone.
You can do that?
Okay, forward this phone.
First, I'm going to demonstrate.
Actually, let me have that phone back for a second.
I'm going to demonstrate.
I'm going to put you on hold,
and I'm going to call another number over here.
Okay, and we're going to demonstrate
how this phone number will go through two different phone lines
and wind up at my OmniPoint phone.
Listen to the pause.
I don't know what that means.
Oh, you know what?
It needs a code.
Oh, boy.
Okay, there's a code.
That's a code.
That's a working code.
Okay, hang on.
Let's try that again.
Maybe I waited too long.
It's BA iPhone system.
There we go.
Okay, here's the code.
All right, now the call is processing.
It's taken quite a while to get to us,
but it got to us.
It forwarded through two different lines.
We have no caller ID, by the way,
but BA never does.
Okay, now what I'd like you to do
is forward that phone to this phone.
Okay, so we're going to forward that phone to this phone.
Let's get Bernie back.
Bernie, you're there.
Okay, we're going to forward the iPhone to this phone.
We're going to forward the OmniPoint phone
to the Sprint phone and see if we can call.
Actually, now we're involving four phone lines,
A to B to C to D,
and let's see how confusing that gets for Sprint.
Maybe it was a fluke, but I tried it,
you know, amongst different conditions.
I tried calling the number direct,
and it just would not happen that way.
I don't know why this is.
It's interesting.
We noticed this about a year or so ago
that on your Sprint PCS or actually on the OmniPoint phone,
it tells you if the call is being forwarded,
which is kind of interesting right there.
So this is, I guess, more examples
of how things get very confusing.
Now, Bernie, you had a particular problem
with your Sprint phone.
Well, I've had a lot of problems with my Sprint phone.
All right, well, let's wrap this one up
in like a minute or less so we can take some phone calls.
I'm trying to think which one you're talking about.
I've had so many.
Well, it's the one you said you wanted to talk about tonight
when I talked to you before.
You said...
Just the general case you've probably been running into
where your phone just doesn't ring
and it just goes to voicemail.
And then maybe hours later, you'll get a voicemail message.
Well, that was a problem.
When I was in Philadelphia,
I remember we were trying to hook up
and I was trying to call you and you were trying to call me
and neither one of us was getting through
and it was really annoying.
Yeah, you were in fact trying to find my house.
Yeah.
And every time you called, you got my voicemail.
And you ended up spending like an hour
driving around Philadelphia looking for me
because you said you'd call me right back.
Answer the phone in two minutes, Bernie, you said.
And I was waiting for the phone to ring.
So while I was waiting, I took a shower
and had the phone next to the shower with me.
It didn't hear a ring, etc.
And you didn't get notification of voicemail either?
Nope.
Oh, well.
A couple hours later, I got the voicemail messages.
Is that still happening down there?
Because it seemed to be a Philadelphia phenomenon.
Yes, it's happening some days more often than others.
Have you talked to them about this?
Have you asked them?
The people at the local Sprint PCS office
seem to be pretty clueless.
They don't know why it's happening.
They just say they're working on it,
they're working on it, that sort of thing.
That seems to run rampant between Sprint stores everywhere.
Okay, now here's something involving...
Is it done?
It's processing right now.
Okay, it's processing.
It's done.
Okay, so let me have that phone.
What we're going to do now is put Bernie back on hold.
Put it back in English for him?
Thank you very much.
Okay, we're going to now call back that other number
and see if it forwards to the Sprint phone
or if it gives us some bizarre recording.
Enter our secret code, and here we go.
Which phone will ring, if any?
Hey, it went through that time.
That's awfully weird.
That's very strange.
Okay, I have no explanation for this.
Whoa.
What do you think of that?
Whoa.
That's pretty scary.
The only question is, whose voice is that that I'm hearing saying?
Who's speaking on the line?
Bernie, is that you?
That's not me.
What do you mean, it's not you?
I didn't pick you up.
Somehow you came up on this line.
All right, well, let me hang up on this.
Oh, but that was so amusing.
It was pretty funny.
All right, here we go.
Gone.
Bernie, are you there?
I'm here.
Okay.
I don't know why.
Let me put you on hold so we don't lose you.
And let's go over here.
Bernie, are you there?
Yes.
Okay, great.
Okay, I don't understand it.
Just further proof that nobody really knows what's going on.
But I'll tell you, if you do it with three lines, it doesn't go through.
If you do it with four lines, it does.
Who knows what's going on here?
All right, OmniPoint.
Remember how OmniPoint's big saying was?
Ah, yes.
More of that.
That's new, right?
OmniPoint was saying how they were better than everybody else.
And why?
Because they didn't have all these confusing contracts.
No contracts.
No hassle.
Remember that?
Well, guess what?
They've changed their whole marketing strategy here.
OmniPoint introduces free speech.
If you cancel your contract before 12 months, there is a $150 termination fee.
You know, it's amazing how these people just like totally change the way that they do business.
And they don't even bother to say,
Oh, by the way, this is 180 degrees different than what we've been telling you all the time that we've been around.
But that's just how the marketplace works, I guess.
Pretty weird.
Okay, let's take some phone calls because we're running out of time.
212-209-2900.
We have Bernie S. with us on the phone from Philadelphia.
Hopefully, your phone will hold out.
You still there?
I'm here.
Okay, good.
Here's our first phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah, hi, Emmanuel.
You talking about annoying things?
I wasn't thinking when I hit that button.
I have some annoying voicemail systems.
Talk about annoying things, yes.
Yeah, annoying voicemail.
Let's all say annoying as many times as possible and then we'll get the idea.
Well, do you have a cooler voicemail system and, like, want to speak to a representative or a live person and, like, press zero?
Sometimes, you know, it makes common sense.
When you press zero, you're supposed to get a live person, right?
Well, yeah, it makes sense, but then again, that, you know, why?
Then again, you know, you don't know what happens sometimes.
What happens sometimes?
You press zero.
It says, I'm sorry, the digit you pressed is invalid.
Then you press zero again and it still says, I'm sorry, the digits you pressed are invalid.
Hang on.
I'm sorry, the digits you pressed are still invalid.
That is annoying.
Yeah, hold on.
We are transferring you to our representative.
Maybe I hit a pound sign.
After about three zeros, then they realize that it's getting too much.
Oh, man.
Okay, that one worked.
That one worked just well.
I like that button.
Yes.
That's the big red button.
Bernie, are you still there?
I'm here.
Okay, good.
Let's go to our next call, which is down where I should have gone in the first place, over here.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Yeah, this is better.
Even though there's nobody here, this is better.
Hello?
Yeah, okay.
Speak up louder, please.
Why are you talking about crap the whole time?
Oh, because we only have an hour and we'd have to go into more detail if we had more time.
I don't know.
Let's go over here.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello?
Yeah.
Speak up, please.
We already did the cavern thing.
Take the phone away from the speaker of the radio and we can hear you.
I'm sorry.
That's okay.
I work for Sprint PCS and I'm listening to everything you're saying and, unfortunately, everything you're saying is true.
Oh, no.
The service is bad.
I have an employee phone.
My service is bad.
Customer service is bad.
Okay, not to dispel what you're saying, but how do we know you're not just a disgruntled customer?
You really do work for Sprint PCS?
I really do work for Sprint PCS.
Is there some way you could sort of tell us something that only a Sprint PCS employee would know?
Not a secret.
Don't tell us any secrets.
Well, in terms of what?
I don't know.
Something about the network that only a technical person would know.
Are you a salesperson or a technical person?
Customer service.
Customer service.
How do you answer the phone?
Thank you for calling Sprint PCS.
Your name.
How may I help you?
That's a bingo.
Actually, that sounds familiar.
I think I talked to you.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Don't go away.
Okay.
Oh, no.
She went away.
I put her on hold and she disappeared.
How is that possible?
Hold on.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Everybody hold on.
This is Bernie S.'s line.
It's flipping out on us.
Okay.
Let's go over here.
Is this the Sprint person?
Yes.
Oh, thank God.
Okay.
The phone started ringing again.
I don't know.
Our lights are all messed up.
Okay.
Well, we're glad we still have you.
So, okay.
So, that sounds very realistic, what you said.
Yes.
I have a feeling I spoke to her before.
What are the most common complaints you get?
People have a problem with the coverage.
They constantly complain that calls are dropping,
calls go directly to voicemail.
And all we can say, well, what they tell us to say
is that they're trying to improve the network.
And, I mean, I feel bad for customers,
but that's all we can tell them.
And what is the real reason for this?
To be honest, we really don't know.
I mean, we have a technical staff that is really out there
trying to improve the network,
because we took on so many customers at one time,
and we're trying to accommodate all the customers
that we have on our network,
and now we're giving upgrades to all customers
who've had phones in the past
so that their phones can lock onto the new cell sites.
But especially in the New York area,
there's a great deal of problem in terms of coverage.
A lot of calls are not...
We have, like, our new phones that just came out,
Samsung 2000s,
they're not hooked up to the new networks
and the cell sites in New York.
So the calls are going straight to the voicemail
instead of ringing.
And the phone that you have,
I can tell that's a Samsung either 1900 or 2000.
Yes, definitely.
That's very good.
I'm very impressed by that.
Yeah.
Well, would you say that Sprint has oversold the network,
that there's too many people on for their capacity?
No, I wouldn't say that.
I mean, they're expanding their network every day.
They're really trying to accommodate all the customers
that they have.
They really are.
That's why they have so many promotions
to try to keep the customers happy
until they can get everything right.
Interesting.
Can you hold on one moment?
Sure.
Okay, because we're going to try to get Bernie S. back here.
And I know he's very frustrated
because he was on a Sprint PCS phone at the time
when he got disconnected.
So let's call him back and see if we can establish communications
and hook him into this conversation.
We'll need our special secret code.
Okay.
Hopefully this won't go to voicemail.
Hello?
Bernie, are you there?
Yes, Sprint PCS cut me off.
I realize that.
We're going to try to tie you in again, so hang on.
Is our Sprint person still there?
Sprint person?
Sprint person?
Are you there?
Who was that?
They hung up.
Did you hear that?
Yes.
Oh, boy.
That's terrible.
Bernie, you have the worst luck in the world.
She was probably calling on her Sprint phone.
That's terrible.
Oh, well.
So we lost that person.
Were you able to verify she did work for Sprint?
She worked for Sprint.
I can pretty much confirm that from the way she answered the phone.
Unfortunately, I missed that.
What did she say about all these problems?
Basically that they're trying hard, right?
Well, they're instructed to tell you that,
and they're just offering people different service upgrades
in order to kind of keep them quiet until such time as all of a sudden
these service upgrades mean something.
I've been told many things, including that some of the system problems
just a few months ago, some of the system problems were being caused
by Sprint satellites being blown off course by El Nino.
Yes.
And this is true.
This came from a Sprint PCS representative at their toll-free number.
And when I brought this up to a supervisor,
he apologized and offered to give me 30 minutes of free calls,
which at my rate, I pay like 5 cents a minute.
I said, well, that's about worth a cup of coffee and not worth my time,
and I just hung up.
We could give you the coffee too.
Wow.
Well, if that person's out there, please call us back
so we can ask some more questions.
But for now, let's take another phone call over here.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
I just have a quick story.
Make it quick.
Okay.
In English class, I read a book by Bernard Malamud, The Fixer,
and it was about a Russian Jew who moved into a non-Jewish district
to get ahead in life, and he was arrested for murder,
which he didn't commit.
And he was put in jail for two years in solitary confinement,
and the Russian police held him there for two years
because they didn't have any evidence to convict him,
so they held him there without trial,
hoping that he would finally forfeit his rights
and admit to killing the child.
And I think this shows how far we've come from the Bernie F.
I mean, from Kevin Mitnick.
They only had me locked up for about a year and a half.
But, yeah, you can definitely see the parallels there
and just the sense that if you torture somebody enough,
eventually they'll give in.
What happens at the end?
Well, he goes to the trial because the Jewish community supported him.
But at the end, it's really weird because he's so tired, a bomb goes off,
and it seems like he's blown up sort of like a cliffhanger.
But it's sort of insinuated that he survives.
What's the name of this again? The Fixer?
The Fixer by Bernard Malamud.
And when was this written?
I believe during the 50s.
Really? Okay, I'll have to check that out.
Yeah, it's a very good book.
A lot of parallels there.
Thanks so much for calling.
Okay.
Take care.
212-209-2900.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yeah, what I was saying...
Goodbye.
So what you have to understand, folks,
there's a city of millions of people, the Internet is out there.
You can't always have the same people talking over.
I know I'm the same person, but I'm the one in front of the microphone,
so that's like, you know, you've got to have me, unfortunately.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hi, I want to talk about OmniPoint.
I just heard their stock had blown up today
because they were supposedly paying off some people in the FCC or something like that.
Just a point of information.
They were paying off people in the FCC.
That's how the news was reported, huh?
Yeah, no, I don't actually get the exact piece of news.
You don't work for Sprint PCS, too, do you?
No, I just work for a stock market kind of company.
Stock market kind of company, okay.
Well, so their stock went way up, you're saying?
No, it's going to go way down tomorrow morning.
Go way down tomorrow morning, so...
If I have OmniPoint stock, I want to dump it first thing in the morning,
is what you're trying to tell me.
Well, now it already opened up, you know.
By that point, you won't be able to dump it anyhow.
So what can I do?
I don't know. I don't know about that.
I'm just glad I don't own it.
Yeah, well...
Uh-huh.
Well, people have been trying to do this for centuries.
And we need a...
I don't know if anybody's used them, but...
Just a suggestion.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
The thing with Internet filters,
you don't know what you're filtering that you might want to read.
That's the only problem with that,
is that you might miss something and not know it.
All right, and don't sell your OmniPoints.
We're not telling you to sell your OmniPoints stock
because we don't know what's going on.
I mean, who knows what the agenda of the person calling was.
But we'll keep an eye on the situation, as always.
All right, let's go over here.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Speak up.
5...
4...
3...
2...
1...
Okay, let's go over here.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Oh.
Yes?
Is there somebody there?
Okay, I don't know what's going on down there.
Maybe they can't hear me on that one.
Let's try over here.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Yes, hi.
I have a question about Y2K, if I may.
Well, sure, we can't stop it.
Okay, I hear mostly on BAI not to respond with alarm
or in a hysterical manner, which is fine because that's not my style.
We're already on edge enough as it is, so...
There you go, that's right.
I heard a guy on the other night,
who I think was involved with the Y2K news publication on the net.
Anyway, he was speaking rather thoughtfully and in a clear way about
the trend with computerized chips in industry
has been to lay off the people who can then override them manually
should that need arise.
Have you heard those ideas?
Or he was saying basically if enough little hardware chips mess up simultaneously
and each one needs to be manually dealt with by someone going into the field,
that there'd be a problem that couldn't really be addressed
because of a lack of manpower.
Does that make any sense, or have you heard that?
I haven't heard that specifically.
It sounds feasible.
I mean, it's not just manpower, it's trained manpower.
I mean, the fact that a computer can control some of these systems
means that a manual operator would have to be somewhat skilled.
Right.
If you haven't trained anyone in the past five years, guess what?
You're not going to have anybody there.
Yeah, that's right.
Interesting.
He was also saying that there's a roughly 5% awareness rate in this country
about that year and what it might require behaviorally.
And he was concerned about, even if Y2K is not a problem itself technically,
that the public awareness of it as it goes from 5% to, let's say, 95% in one year
could cause food shortages and huge buying sprees, stuff like that.
I agree with that.
I mean, I think the reaction to the potential problem
is what we're really going to see a problem from, not the problem itself.
Right.
So you're somewhat concerned.
How would you rate your concern about it?
I mean, how would you?
Personally, I think the whole thing is really overblown,
but I'm only saying that because nobody else is.
Yeah.
I'm looking at a matchbook cover right now.
It says, Be an embedded controller.
Earn big money.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Scrambling for recruitment.
That's it, all right.
We can charge them what we want, huh?
Yeah.
That's the way of the future.
All right.
Thanks so much for calling.
Sure thing.
Thanks.
Thanks again.
Bernie, what do you think is going to happen in 2000?
I'm training to be an embedded controller myself.
Yeah.
But January 1st, 2000, what's going to happen?
Let's have some predictions here.
Panic.
Chaos.
Yeah.
And general indifference by some people, like myself.
Uh-huh.
But all these people are going to be hungover from the night before.
Can you really panic in a drunken state?
You know?
I guess we'll find out.
Isaac, any predictions?
Predictions for 2000.
Well, it'll take me more than a minute to go on about that,
so I suppose I'll just pass.
I predict a lot of people will be trying to make money off this.
The media will be trying to make all kinds of stories,
and the American people, as usual, will just be led around like the sheep they are.
I didn't mean that in a bad way, though.
I didn't mean to insult people, but I'm just saying, you know, we tend to get...
We're out of time.
We'll have to continue this next time for another edition of Off the Hook.
Bernie, thanks very much for being part of the show.
Hey, thanks for calling.
Good luck with reception down there in Philadelphia.
Yeah, I need it.
Stay away from that federal prison.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
I'm right in front of Independence Hall right now.
Oh, you are?
You're outside?
That's something, isn't it?
Well, we are out of time.
Thanks so much for joining us again.
Isaac, thanks for coming in.
Oh, no problem.
We'll see you again next week for another edition of Off the Hook.
Until then, Emanuel Goldstein.
Good night.
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