It's just about 8 o'clock on Tuesday night, time once again for Off The Hook.
It's just about 8 o'clock on Tuesday night, time once again for Off The Hook.
And a very good evening to one and all.
The program is Off The Hook, where we talk about high technology,
and the latest in the world of Big Brother.
But first I'd like to concentrate on one of my favorite subjects.
Stupidity. Yeah, stupidity. It seems to be all over the place,
seems to be constantly hitting us, surrounding us, staring at us.
It's always there.
And I get a fair amount of stupidity in my mailbox, my electronic mailbox.
That's Emanuel at 2600.com in case you've got some stupidity to contribute.
One million email addresses for only $24.95.
That's what I got in my mailbox yesterday.
I didn't get one million email addresses, I got an offer for one million email addresses.
Now listen to this guy.
This is the lowest price for a million email addresses on the internet, guaranteed.
Are you interested in marketing your product or service via bulk email?
Why pay more?
How do you know your venture will even be successful?
Don't lose your shirt paying as much as $300 for what you can get for only $24.95.
What most of the shysters on the net won't tell you is that bulk email isn't always successful.
They promise success ratios of up to 18%, when in reality it can range from 1 16th of 1%
up to as high as 2.5 to 5% at the very most,
if your ad and product service are exceptionally good.
This guy basically goes on to say that he knows that most of the names that he gives you
aren't going to go anywhere.
He's using that as a basis for sending you this piece of garbage in the first place.
Well, I'm just about fed up to here with getting pieces like this almost every day
of people sending unsolicited pieces of garbage to email accounts.
You know, I'm looking for ways to respond, you know, strongly and forcefully.
What do you do? Do you email bomb them right back off the net?
Do you complain to their postmaster?
Do you reply sarcastically? I mean, they don't read their own mail. I'm sure they don't.
But just in case they do, the address is adnet at j-o-b-o-p-s dot com.
That's what they call themselves.
And I don't know.
Farber, you ever get mail like this?
Constantly.
Constantly, huh?
Yeah, I hate junk mail as much as the next guy.
Oh, no, you don't hate it as much as I do.
Oh, I think I hate it more.
Because the junk mail I get a lot of the times comes from invalid from addresses.
So you can't reply to the person even if you don't like what they have to say.
Especially when they say, if you don't want to receive this anymore, just reply to us.
And the source address is fake.
One million, I mean, you know, these poor, who do you send this to?
What makes him think that I want a million email addresses?
You know?
I think a lot of the times they get it from people that are in the nick.
Yesterday I got two pieces of email from the same person on two different accounts saying,
I noticed your name is Emanuel, I'd like to know how you like that name,
and if you've been satisfied with it throughout your life, and things like that.
They're doing some sort of survey just on that particular name.
And like, you know, people are scanning the net for, you know, for individuals to harass
and ask all kinds of stupid questions of.
It's, I don't know, just, it makes you really kind of pessimistic
about the whole outlook for humanity.
Another thing that might make you a little bit pessimistic,
family tormented by high-tech stalker.
I must have gotten this story about 14 times over the last week.
It comes out of Emeryville, Ontario.
The trouble began in December when puzzled friends told Debbie and Dwayne Tamai
that their telephone calls to the couple were repeatedly being waylaid and cut off.
This is like the view that a lot of people seem to get for hackers, for computer hackers.
Basically, a lot of us are seen in a negative light.
A month later, a disembodied voice, eerily distorted by computer,
first interrupted a call to make itself known.
After burping repeatedly, the caller told a startled Debbie Tamai,
I know who you are, I stole your voicemail.
Mocking, sometimes menacing, the high-tech stalker has become a constant presence,
eavesdropping on family conversations, switching television channels,
shutting off the electricity, and totally baffling the electronics experts
trying to track his mischief.
He calls himself Sami, S-O-M-M-Y.
Neither the Tamais nor the police have a clue of who Sami is,
how he does it, or why he has targeted his family.
His primary aim seems to be taunting this particular family
while stumping investigators from the Ontario Provincial Police,
the local electric company, and the national phone company, Bell Canada.
Actually, that's not true, they're not the national phone company,
they're the phone company for that particular part of Canada.
He told me that I can get the best people in the world to come in my home
and they won't find anything.
I'm waiting for the one person to come and tell me I found something,
I just want my life back, says Debbie Tamai.
She thinks Sami rigged the Tamais' modest two-story brick house
while it was being built last year, intending to torment whoever moved in.
Anyone could have had access to it while it was being built,
then when we moved in, his fun began.
I don't know why he'd pick us out.
Now the family feels trapped until the mystery is solved,
the Tamais doubt anyone would buy their house,
one of five new homes along a little cul-de-sac in Emeryville,
a town of fewer than 1,000 people on the shore of Lake St. Clair,
20 miles east of Detroit.
We worked a lot of overtime for this house, Debbie Tamai said yesterday
as she played tapes of Sami's calls for a reporter.
We moved from Windsor because we wanted to get away from the ruckus of city life.
Ah yes, the ruckus of Windsor city life, I know all about that.
Initially, Sami's interference was mostly annoying,
then his harassment turned sinister.
He would threaten me, it was very frightening.
I'm going to get you, I know where you live.
I befriended him because the police asked me to,
and he calmed down and said he wasn't going to hurt me.
The more I felt I was kissing his butt, the safer I felt.
But never entirely safe.
Debbie Tamai says Sami has made clear he listens to family talks
through household telephones, even with the receivers hung up.
Boy, this guy is like a god or something, isn't he?
Wow.
When I want to have a private conversation, I unplug the phone,
but we still whisper, she said.
It'd be fun to just go up there and watch these people try to live out their lives.
I mean, boy, when paranoia overtakes you, it can be quite a sight to witness.
Police believe Sami lives in the area and is under 25.
He bragged to them that police came and went from his house
in a door-to-door sweep.
Some private experts have tried to uncover Sami, including Doug Ralph,
a retired electronic surveillance expert for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
He concluded Sami was accessing the Tamai's house
through either underground cables or the nearby Bell Canada wiring station.
He seems to know an awful lot about the phones, Debbie Tamai said.
I asked if he had something against Bell Canada.
He said, not really.
Bell Canada has rewired the house several times.
Each time, Sami was able to get back on the line once within 20 minutes.
He knows exactly what he's doing, said Sergeant Ron Lane,
head of the Essex County Police Crime Unit.
At one point, experts sent 600 volts of electricity through the phone line,
hoping to blow out Sami's equipment.
He just laughed, Debbie Tamai said.
He said, what are you trying to do, zap me?
I've got a backup system, stupid.
One of the ordeal's most trying aspects has been the official suspicion
focused on Dwayne Tamai, 34, and the couple's 15-year-old son, Billy.
Police analyzed their voices, and I'll
say the family and Billy's closest friend are in the clear.
It's been very hard on Billy, Debbie said.
He knew he was being fingered, even though investigators
have sat in the kitchen with him while Sami was talking on the phone.
Dwayne Tamai works each day at a tool and dye shop,
but Debbie is too unnerved some days to do her job at a Windsor casino.
Because I'm a blackjack dealer, I need 100% concentration, she said.
I've had a lot of panic attacks.
I got medication for that, but some days there is no way I can stop shaking.
The Tamais went public with their plight last week,
hoping to pressure the phone company to do more and maybe to prompt tips
about Sami's identity.
If he gets caught, I hope they throw the book at him, Debbie said.
I'd like to look him in the eye and let him know what he did to me and my family.
What do you think?
I challenge somebody to provide one shred of evidence
that that's an authentic news item.
What, do you think I just read a fake news item?
No, I'm not saying that you knowingly read
a fake news item, I got that myself numerous times.
It sounds completely ridiculous.
Well, it comes from the Philadelphia Inquirer, actually.
If you go to their website, you'll see it there.
They have anything to do with the National Inquirer?
No, it's different.
It's spelled differently.
Oh, they're the local version.
That's the Inquirer.
This is the Inquirer.
So they're two different types of news gathering organizations.
But what, you're saying something like this is not possible.
You can't harass somebody to that extent.
What does Bell Canada have to do with turning off and on the television?
That's what I want to know.
Or much less the electricity in the house.
Well, I like the part about sending 600 volts down the phone line.
There was actually a really bad Canadian movie.
This is it.
A number of years ago.
It's being unfolded right now.
Yeah, and it was something about some crazy former Bell Canada employee
who was killing people by zapping phones while they were using them.
This is a real movie.
Yeah.
I don't remember what it was called.
I think I remember that.
I think I remember that.
Some famous actor was in it.
Yeah, and like their head would melt and they'd explode.
Yeah, that's right.
It was a really silly movie.
Then they get the off-hook tone.
Yeah, right, exactly.
Right, that's what happens.
Yeah, and it could happen to pay phones too.
It appears a receiver is off the hook.
Yeah.
Well, OK.
We have some rather disturbing news coming from another part of our country.
And it's kind of a familiar thing.
It's been seen before, if you recall, back in 1992.
November of 1992 happened in Pentagon City Mall in Washington, D.C.
A 2600 meeting was broken up by authorities.
This time it happened in Atlanta.
It happened a couple of Fridays ago for the April meeting.
And we have on the phone with us from Atlanta,
Lotech, who was there, who was a witness to the whole thing.
Lotech, you with us?
Yeah.
You want to tell us just what...
This is at the Lenox Food Court, right?
Yeah.
All right.
So you're at the meeting, typical meeting.
What's...
Anything different about this one?
No, it just happened like every other meeting.
Sometimes people bring in certain magazines or some cool printouts or whatever
and just spread it around the group, you know, and just pass around.
And sometimes people just bring in old equipment that they find
or old equipment that they have sitting in their garage
and they'll just give it out as novelty to other people.
And this one guy had happened to go trashing
and he found a box of instructional videos for some businesses, you know,
like how to operate certain machinery and blah, blah, blah, you know.
And he was just giving them away.
And it was like a box of, I'd say, maybe 20 to 30.
And he also had a box of old equipment, old computer equipment.
And most people couldn't identify them.
But one was like a 30 meg hard drive that weighed like 15 pounds, you know.
And another one was a huge motor.
And, you know, basically he just had them sitting in boxes.
And he was like, well, just go ahead.
Anybody who wants them, just take one, you know, freebies.
So everybody's pretty cool, you know.
And everybody just, you know, kind of unselfish enough.
And, you know, they'll leave some for other people.
So basically he brought some in and he had them sitting on the tables.
And we sit on the second floor of the food court.
And the regular food court is on the first level.
And most of the people sit down there.
And some people who know about the second floor will usually go
to the second floor and eat there.
But the meeting was originally on the first floor.
It was moved to the second floor because, you know, it's more secluded.
And there's usually more seating there, you know.
So basically we're sitting there.
And me and my friends are talking.
And everybody's forgotten about the videos and the equipment.
And it's about, it's well like an hour and a half into the meeting.
And one of the, a security guard comes by.
And she's like, oh, what's this, you know.
And we're like, oh, this is just stuff that people, some guy brought in.
If you, you know, if you're interested in one of them, you know,
we'll tell you what it is and you can take it if you want.
She's like, you know, you can't do this.
And she saw the box of videos, right.
And she's like, I'm sorry, you can't do this, you know.
And she just radioed in.
And I was standing behind her.
And she was radioing in something about pornographic material.
You know, like we were giving away porno tapes or something.
She somehow thought the videos were pornographic.
Yeah, she thought the videos were pornographic.
And we were giving them away for free.
Was there anything on the video to indicate this?
Nothing.
There's, I mean, we didn't, we couldn't view the tapes because none of us had a VCR.
But there was absolutely no pornographic material there.
I mean, no one's that stupid enough to bring one, you know.
Right.
So she radioed that in.
And a few minutes later, a whole, like a whole team of guards,
like six or seven of them, came by.
And one of the large guards, he just came up to me and stood up,
stood in my face and said, like, sorry, you guys can't do this here.
You know, these tables are for eating only, you know.
And he says that only paying customers is the food court.
And all of, most of the 2,600 attendees are paying customers.
And we're eating at the time.
And he says, you can't have anything but food on the tables.
And we were like, OK, well, you know, how, can we have our bags on the table?
Because, you know, usually we'll bring notebooks and book bags or whatever.
And he says, no, you can't have your book bags on there.
You can't have any private property of yours whatsoever, except for food.
Just a little law they made up on the spot.
Yeah, I know.
And we're like, OK, well, we'll comply, you know.
And then, you know, one guy behind me is like, OK, you know,
private property, I guess like my, I guess my hands and my elbows
aren't allowed on the table either.
So he was the wise guy of the bunch.
Yeah, I know, of course, is, you know.
Yeah.
But, but anyway, you know, so we all said, you know,
we're all getting bored with him yelling at us.
So we just all decided to take the boxes off the tables, comply with his orders.
So we all removed the boxes of videotapes and boxes of equipment
and told the others that had been here to take their bags and little notebooks
and stuff off the table, you know.
And if you're eating, that's the only thing that was allowed.
So anyway, we're sitting about, I'd say about 45 minutes to an hour later.
The guy came back.
And he, this time, he was like, he was pissed.
I mean, and he just, get to my, I'm standing,
I'm like the closest one to him and he stands right up in my face.
And he's like, listen, I'm not going to tell you again.
I told you guys to get this stuff off of mall property.
It is not allowed on property.
I'm like, whoa, you told us it wasn't allowed on the tables, not on mall property.
You know, he wanted us to get it, you know, into our cars and drive it away.
You know, and he's like, no, I didn't.
No, I didn't.
You know, and I'm like, yeah, you did.
And a lot of, by that time, a lot of hackers just got up and were like, no,
that's not what you said, you know, and basically just started arguing with us.
And he says, okay, I want you and the rest of your kind to leave.
And I'm like, my kind?
Okay, fine, you know?
And I'm just still standing there arguing with them.
And most of the attendees and most of the people who weren't attendees, you know,
were scared, you know, and most of the people that were regular paying customers
to the mall got up and left, you know, including most of everybody else.
And one of my friends, he got up in his face.
He was like, listen, you can't do this to us, you know?
And one guy, like one of the guards, he goes, okay, now who's the leader here?
And we're like, no, there is no leader.
And she's like, well, there has to be a leader here.
And we're like, no, there's no leader here.
We just gather here once a month.
She's like, I know there's a leader here, so tell me who's the leader.
And we're all laughing at her face, you know?
And basically, she just gave up.
And then, but anyway, like the guy, he picks up the box, picks up, you know,
two boxes, and he's like, okay, he says, I'm taking this stuff.
And we're like, no, you're not.
And he's like, well, whose is it?
And then, my friend stands up.
He's like, okay, well, it's everybody's, anybody who wants to take it.
And you're like, okay, well, I'm detaining everybody here.
Everybody has to stay here because I'm going to take down your names, blah, blah, blah.
He just goes on.
And so, basically, what we did was, you know, my friend, he like says, okay,
don't worry about it, it's mine, you know?
He just takes the blame.
And he's like, okay, fine, you're being detained.
And two other attendees that went to, go to the 2600s, he got stood up, and they're like, no, man,
you can't do this to him.
He's like, fine, you two are being detained, too.
And they're like, fine, okay, you know?
And I asked, I go, man, you can't arrest them.
He's like, they're not being arrested, they're being detained.
And, you know, and I'm like, okay, whatever.
So, like some of the people, I'm not sure if this is true, but one of the guys, he had grabbed,
like, a box or, like, some equipment or whatever and started walking
down the escalator to leave the mall.
And apparently, they said that one of the guys had grabbed him by the belt and dragged him back
up the escalator and told him to drop the equipment and said, you know, hey,
the equipment stays here, you're not allowed to do that.
You know, and basically, anybody who tried to grab a video or tried to grab some equipment
that was visible or holding were not allowed to leave.
But most some of the people managed to get in their book bags and just happened to leave
or whatever.
And so, basically, anyways, like, by the time, by this time, everybody had left.
And the guy's like, he pokes me in the chest, you know, with his forefinger.
He's like, okay, man, listen, you want to go be detained like your smart-ass talking friend?
I'm like, nope, I got to be home by 11.
Just smile on his face and he's like, get out of here.
Get out of here before I detain you.
I'm like, whatever.
So, I go back and everybody's gathered outside and I tell everybody about what happened.
Everybody's been wondering why, you know, why they do that, you know.
And this has never happened before.
I mean, we've had real police officers stand, you know, and sit with tables across from us
and just sometimes they'll even occasionally talk to us and say, oh, what's that?
Oh, what's this?
You know, how does that work?
And blah, blah, blah, you know.
But, I mean, this time, the guards, you know, for some reason, they had some attitude with us.
And it was just weird to have guards treat us that way that we've never had treated before, you know.
That is, I mean, it's not all that atypical.
I've heard other cases have been problems in Portland, problems in Buffalo, and over the years,
problems in a number of other cities with security guards.
But this seems to have gone a bit further than most cases where they actually detain people.
What was the outcome?
Did they press charges of some sort?
No, we haven't heard from them at all.
I mean, they just came up with reasons that we couldn't stay there.
I mean, like one reason, he said that, you know, we're giving away free equipment and we can't do that
because we're competing with the other stores and malls.
It's not likely the other stores are giving away the kind of equipment that you have.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, who sells 15 megabyte hard drives?
You know, it's just for vintage sake, you know.
You want to, if you want like an eight inch floppy disk, you know, take one, you know.
Right, right.
And he says that we couldn't compete with other stores and malls.
I mean, I'm sure if they said you can't do that, you'd respect that and you wouldn't do it.
But the thing is, the way they told you, it was contradictory.
They said, don't keep it on the table.
Then it's, don't keep it in the mall.
And then it's, you can't have it at all.
I know.
And then as we were leaving, the guard said, OK, if you're going to gather here again,
you guys are going to have to go to management and you're going to have to get a permit to gather here again.
And we're like, OK, fine.
You know, I mean, and he says that's going to cost money and this and that.
And I found out, my friend who was detained and after we had gathered at Internet Cafe,
you know, to finish off the meeting, my friend came back and he was, he's like, I was like, hey, man,
you know, how come you didn't get arrested?
You know, and he said, he says, well, basically they just wasted our time.
They couldn't find anything to arrest me for.
They just released me and released the others too.
And so they he was he was pinned up against the wall.
That's what I've heard is he was searched.
They felt his pockets, looked through a couple of pockets in his book bag and felt felt his jacket and checked his pockets and stuff like that.
You know, and mall guards don't have the right to search you like that.
I'm not sure what the rules are down in Georgia.
Well, you should you should probably check into that to see just what what authority they do have.
But if they if they violate the law in any way, I really think we should be threatening them with all kinds of legal action,
because just because, you know, you're of a certain age and you're, you know, people that are looked down upon in some sections of society,
there's no reason to allow this kind of abuse to continue.
I'm not sure how other people feel down there if they want to continue trying to have the meetings.
What's the actual name of the mall?
Lenox Square Mall.
Lenox Square Mall.
OK, it's been it's been my experience in the past that if you if you challenge this kind of thing,
it generally does more good than if you just acquiesce to what it is they're asking you to do or telling you to do.
And it certainly would be a bad precedent for other parts of the country.
I mean, there is there is an argument for the mall being private property as ridiculous a notion as that might seem.
It does it does belong to, you know, a certain entity.
And they have the right to say, OK, you can't be here anymore.
It's not like a town square, even though, in fact, it has replaced the town square of the of the past.
One way that you could definitely oppose these people is by having merchants, merchants who are there support the fact that you are there.
I mean, you're responsible for a lot of business being done in that place when you go to a food court and hang out for a few hours.
I imagine that's several hundred dollars at least in transactions that are going on.
So I'm sure that that, you know, at least a few merchants would be happy to see you guys remain there.
Another thing is just if our listeners can can put any pressure that they want on these people to to back off a bit, there's certainly press people.
One of the one of the main things that happened with the Pentagon City incident of 1992 was the fact that it was spearheaded by the Secret Service.
That was a fact that was that was just mentioned in passing by one of the security guards that was harassing people.
And it was that little bit of information that we used over the weekend to to get out to the press.
And one reporter, Brock Meeks, was able to call them first thing Monday morning and verify the story right before the Secret Service called the security people to tell them not to say anything to the press.
That made a very big difference in public opinion, certainly, even though The Washington Post printed a front page article that focused more on the fact that hackers were actually meeting out in the open rather than the fact that the Secret Service had illegally orchestrated a search and seizure of them.
To this day, the meetings are going on in the Pentagon City Mall.
And I think a large part of that is because we didn't back down.
So, yeah, but I mean, some of the guards were like just talking, you know, saying, OK, what are these?
You know, they're just taped. Look at them. You know, he's like, oh, they're probably porno tapes.
And a couple of guards are whispering to each other.
They're probably making a bomb, you know.
And apparently we've had a couple of bomb cases here in Atlanta.
And that's a familiar favor, really.
But but I mean, I just can't see any reason why they do this to us after, you know, we've never caused any problems.
I mean, we've made we made they may have aroused a little curiosity.
You know, what are they doing?
You know, but no, they've never done anything to this extreme.
But, you know, we definitely would like to know.
I mean, most people, most most attendees down here are saying, no, it's it's not possible.
That's, you know, Secret Service or any other higher authority may have taken part.
You know, it's probably just the guards had misunderstood.
And I mean, there is a possibility, you know, I do agree with that, too.
But, you know, we have to question all, you know, all facts before.
So it seems very, very unlikely that the Secret Service will be behind something like this.
Yeah, it seems like just local stupidity.
The thing is, how do you how do you prevent that from affecting you for future meetings?
And I guess at this point, we should we should kind of explain to people that might not may have gone to 2600 meetings just what it is they're all about and why people feel the need to meet in these malls in the first place and what kinds of things go on there.
What happens at the Atlanta meetings?
Well, the reason why it's Atlantic Square Mall is it's accessible by anybody.
I mean, if you have a car, there's plenty of parking.
If you ride Marta, which is like the railway, if you ride that, you it's easily accessible.
It's like five minute walk from there.
Basically, everybody goes there.
I mean, at the Atlanta meetings, it's just like any other normal meeting.
I mean, we gather, we talk, exchange ideas.
You know, some people find little bits, you know, while trashing or just give away old equipment.
You know, I mean, it's just just like any other normal meeting, you know, a little gathering.
Has there been any incidents in the past?
No. No, I mean, we've had guards walk by, look, stand right there, just kind of look at what we're doing.
You know, they may say, like, oh, how does this work?
You know, maybe a little interested.
You know, I've had one guard ask me, like, oh, what does this do?
OK, how does that work? You know, I mean, but no, they've never detained anybody.
They've never gotten an attitude with any of them.
Uh-huh. We're speaking with Lotech down in Atlanta concerning the 2600 meeting that was broken up two Fridays ago.
The monthly meetings take place the first Friday of every month at cities throughout the world now.
One thing that happened after the D.C. incident, we had an explosion of new meetings because people didn't want to put up with this kind of garbage and they wanted to challenge authority in this particular case.
That, of course, was was Secret Service related.
This seems to be nothing more than than local security guards.
But, you know, it's still a frightening thing.
I mean, the people that were searched, detained.
I mean, it must have been kind of a traumatic experience.
But have you spoken to many of them afterwards?
Yeah. I mean, some of them, you know, there's, you know, just shocked.
I mean, they treated them, you know, treated them as if they were criminals.
I mean, one guy just, you know, grabbed him by the shoulder, shoved him one way, another, you know.
I mean, you know, the other two that went with my friend, they basically went to see, you know, that they were getting all the right things.
You know, it's safer in numbers, I guess.
You know, they just wanted to see, you know, they weren't being mistreated in any other way.
You know, more witnesses, I suppose.
But most of the people while I was arguing either just took off, you know, just, you know, they didn't want to be there or didn't want to be seen by guards or whatever.
I mean, some, you know, by the time my time I had left, everybody else had left.
It was only maybe one or two people that left with me.
But, uh, no, we're just all wondering why, you know, why this happened.
I think it's amazing that some of those people actually stepped forward and offered to take responsibility, even though they hadn't done anything different than anybody else.
It's quite a courageous act right there.
Yeah.
Well, now, you're welcome to stay on the show and take some phone calls with us if there's people that might have suggestions or comments on this.
Would you like to do that?
Yeah, sure.
Okay, great.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
Fiber, this seems kind of familiar, doesn't it?
Yeah.
It's all the authority figure thing.
Just yet another plot perpetrated by the man to keep us down.
That's one way of putting it.
But I think, you know, we're just looking at, I mean, we've had problems all kinds of places, but they usually, you know, pretty easily resolved once the people understand where we're coming from.
And the fact that we pose no actual danger, that we're just a bunch of curious people trading information.
And it seems they're a lot less tolerant in other places.
I remember in Citicorp, they were a lot more patient.
Yeah, they're very patient at Citicorp.
I mean, you know, we've been pretty patient, too, because they've been building that damn building now for the last year and a half.
But all the times I was at Citicorp, we were never actually thrown out or asked to leave.
We actually used to be allowed to smoke there.
The worst thing that ever happened was somebody lit a garbage can on fire and then we weren't thrown out.
We just weren't allowed to smoke anymore.
So they're very, very flexible.
Lighting a garbage can on fire is definitely well outside the bounds of normal 2600 meeting behavior.
I can tell you that right now.
But they were willing to work with us.
Very flexible.
That's good.
I mean, I think they deserve some credit for that.
Yeah. And other places in the country, you know, if they have positive experiences, they should report those to us as well as the negative ones.
OK, let's take some phone calls.
212-279-3400.
Should shopping malls be thought of as private property?
Should people be be thrown out at the whim of the guards because they just don't look right?
Give us your opinion. 212-279-3400.
What do you want to bet the first phone call is going to be on a topic totally off the wall of what we're talking about here?
It has to be because our off the wall topic person just left the room.
Oh, really? OK, good evening.
You're on the air right behind me.
He's always behind you. Good evening.
You're on the air. Hey, Emmanuel, what's up?
How are you doing? I was just wondering if you guys are going to be having any more real audio shows, because like I'm calling from Canada right now.
I can't. I'm not listening to your show.
So, well, the interesting thing is that what happens, we don't have live real audio at the moment.
But what we do have are the shows of weeks past.
We put those up on our server and it's possible for you to download them in two ways.
One, just download like a seven meg file and wait a while.
The other is to download a seven meg file and listen to it as you download it, which is a new feature we've just added.
So this show will be up in about a week or so.
And then you can you can listen to your voice live on the net.
I guess it's a good point to mention, if anyone out there taped the first part of this show, that we forgot to start the tape machine.
So actually, if you're listening to this on the net right now and you hear the first part of the show, that's because some kind person donated a tape and gave it to us.
Otherwise, otherwise you're hearing it starting like about two minutes into it.
Kind of kind of interesting way to do things.
But that's that's the best we can offer you right now.
All right. Well, is Fiber there?
Fiber's here, yes.
Hey, Fiber.
What part of Canada are you calling from?
Um, Manitoba, a small little town called Thompson.
You're not near that place where that that person's harassing that poor family in Ontario, person.
Where?
No, I'm in central Canada.
What is that, Ontario?
No, Manitoba.
It's like a small province.
You know, we've never gotten the call from Manitoba before.
What's your area code?
204.
He's right. This kid's for real.
Manitoba.
204.
Wow. That's that's true.
So what's going on in Manitoba this time of year?
You still got snow on the ground?
Oh, yeah, we still do.
Actually, it's just gotten warmer today.
Actually, went up to plus nine, actually.
See, they talk Celsius up there.
Yep.
Totally different than down here.
It's like a different culture.
Well, then you have a good excuse for not talking about the subject because you can't hear the actual radio station up there.
Yep.
Wow. Do you have 2600 meetings anywhere near you?
No, I do not.
Well, there might be one in Winnipeg, which is down south from me right now, but I haven't heard of any.
I've heard rumors of meetings in Winnipeg, but we haven't gotten anything official on that.
So and also meetings possibly in Edmonton as well.
But I don't know if you're anywhere near there.
Oh, no.
Well, are there many hackers in Manitoba?
In Manitoba?
Winnipeg, yes.
But I think I'm the only one in Thompson.
Well, what's the population of your town?
Sixteen thousand, twenty thousand.
I have no idea.
Wow.
So how do you how do you hack from a town like that?
There's actually only three Internet providers in this town.
So, you know, just I'm done right now since, you know, I've both I've only actually well, I shouldn't be saying this actually on the air.
Yeah, maybe not.
Maybe not.
Use your discretion there.
The only three modem connectable computers I know of are like for one BBS and three Internet providers.
So don't forget X-25.
You still got data pack up there.
Yeah, data pack.
I remember data pack.
Is it very expensive to be on the net up there?
No, actually.
Two hundred dollars a year for unlimited usage.
That's not bad.
That's not too bad.
And why unlimited?
Do they mean unlimited?
That they don't disconnect you if you actually try to use it all the time?
No.
Well, that's that's pretty good.
Wow.
Well, listen, we don't want to run up your phone bill.
It's probably costing you a pretty Canadian penny.
All right.
Well, one more thing.
Yes.
Do you know anything about hotel accommodations for Beyond Hope?
Ah, yes.
In fact, you have web access, right?
Yes.
OK, we're going to be announcing it's going to be also in the in the 2600 issue that's going to come out in about a week, the spring issue.
But it'll be on the website.
It's not up yet.
It'll be up in a couple of days.
Www.beyondhope.net.
Actually, I'm sorry.
Www.hope.net.
And also through the 2600 website, there'll be several different hotels that that will be announcing ranging in price from, believe it or not, forty dollars a night to however much you want to spend.
There's no upper limit.
Let's put it that way.
OK, and it's only three days, is it?
It's Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Yeah, but we suggested you come in early.
Garth Brooks is putting on a concert for us in Central Park the day before on Thursday.
Yeah, I was not.
He wanted to perform at Hope, but we were all filled up.
So we suggested that he go up to the Central Park.
And so we worked that out for the day before.
So we're asking people.
He's really into hacking.
He really is.
He's God bless him.
He's he's he's something else.
The country music is big up there, isn't it?
Up here?
Yeah, in Canada.
Not that I know of.
I hate country.
Not country.
Western, Western.
That's big.
I hate Western, too.
What kind of music is popular up there?
All sorts, I guess.
Some people listen to country, rap, alternative.
Wow.
Everything but classical, I think.
That's that's kind of cool.
Well, OK, well, soon you'll be able to hear this radio show through your computer.
So keep keep checking.
Thanks very much for calling.
All right. You're welcome.
Bye. Take care.
How do you like that? A call from Manitoba?
Manitoba.
That's that's got to be a first.
I tell you, I'll be really impressed if we get a call from the Baffin Islands.
Yeah. OK.
Do they have phones up there?
Of course they have phones up there.
It's not the Baffin Islands.
It's Baffin Island.
There's only one?
Yeah. And the town is called.
Well, never mind what the town is called.
The town? One town?
Yeah, there's a couple of settlements and things like that.
Yeah. Of course, there's people all over the place.
We'd like to hear.
Actually, I hope more listeners do what that person did.
And even though they can't actually get the show live, they hear it on the Internet
and they call us because they know that we're on every Tuesday night from eight to
nine, unless we're not on.
But we usually are.
So even though you can't hear the show, give us a call and let us know that you're
hearing. I've gotten letters from Australia, Portugal,
various other parts of the world.
People actually listen to the show in those areas.
Unless we're not on.
Unless we're not on. Well, you know, it's hard to tell people we're not on if we're
not on, you know, and they can't hear the show.
So it's just a technicality.
OK, let's see if we can get to the topic, which is 2600
meetings being broken up by mall security types, things like that.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Hello. Yes, I know you can hear us because I can hear my voice.
OK, great. Yes.
Speak up and turn on your radio.
All right. I will. Hold on.
We're on delay. Yeah, I don't want to get myself screwed up with this delay.
Y'all fall into a time vortex.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry.
This is not related to the.
Why am I not surprised?
Because I was thinking of this question before I heard this.
I feel for the guy and I hope he doesn't back down.
And, you know, he will stand up to these backwards people.
But you're going to ask your question. What is that?
I was on a public phone the other day
and I heard it's just a very simple question for you, I'm sure.
I heard CB, I think CB radio voices
when I was speaking. Yes.
In fact, I had the same exact situation happen at a payphone just yesterday.
I wonder if it's the same one.
You're probably near a taxi of some sort.
Yes. They sometimes they they they use illegal wattage.
And it it overpowers, you know, into local telephones.
It's awfully annoying.
Do they hear me or I just can hear that?
No, they can't hear you.
And they wouldn't listen even if they could.
But they you just hear them blurring over your your phone conversations.
It's very annoying.
And if you can pinpoint it, you should complain.
But it's kind of hard to pinpoint something.
I don't want to pinpoint this one because I was able to get free phone calls
anywhere in the United States.
How do you get free phone calls from a CB radio?
No, from a public phone.
OK, a street phone.
Well, it's not the phone that's the problem.
It's the CB radio that's leaking onto the phone.
They're not going to suddenly realize
the phone can give you free phone calls if it's getting interference.
I don't I don't see how they'd realize.
No, no. Well, it's one that has nothing to do with the other one.
It was just that, you know, I put in money and it gives me the money back.
But it registers as money.
You know, like a credit.
Yeah, I realize that.
And it doesn't it doesn't insert CB noise as a penalty.
And, you know, that's totally unrelated.
No, I'm saying that I'm just saying I don't want to report it
because then they might discover the, you know, you know, the other problem.
You know, they might discover it by accident is what you're saying.
Yeah. Well, that's a chance.
You know, life is, you know, it's a crapshoot.
You don't know what's going to happen.
No, I just I was just curious about I was just curious.
But I figured you would know the answers.
And you did. Yes. All right.
Thanks. OK, thanks for calling.
I think you're surprised.
It could be part of the whole time vortex thing.
Maybe he's meant to become a taxi driver so then he can pay for his own phone calls.
Yeah. And interfere with other people who are trying to make free phone calls.
Exactly. It's an endless cycle.
You think we could get a single phone call on the topic tonight?
Hopefully. All right. Let's hope so.
Good evening. You're on the air.
And this person can hear us, too, because I hear my voice.
Yeah. I'm actually going to talk about the topic.
Oh, great. Thank you very much.
Thank you. All right.
So if you hold this connection, go ahead.
It's sort of strange that once you walk into a mall, you know,
suddenly your rights are held at the door.
You know, normally security guards are normal citizens.
They are not uber citizens or what have you.
And sort of strange that they have the ability to search you and detain you
without your permission, even to touch you without that, without your direct
permission. And I think that's sort of strange.
And I would like to look up the laws on that,
especially if you were if you're not suspected of a particular crime.
If you're just sitting in the commons area, you haven't been seen committing a crime.
I'm sure that the crimes are not.
I'm sure it's not a crime to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It's just not. Well, I mean, consider that these people are described as what is it?
Your kind? Yeah.
And, you know, you're guilty of being your kind, I guess.
I mean, yeah. And a couple of hackers here in Atlanta have looked it up.
And mall security guards do not have do not reserve the right to search you.
Only real police do.
And they can only detain you for maybe one to two hours.
And and then and then when the police only they can only detain you
if the police come and if you're suspected for a crime.
And apparently my you know, the people that were detained or
were detained for about an hour to an hour and a half.
And they were they were not suspected of any crime.
The cop they called the cops. The cops never came.
Basically, all they did was just waste their time.
Did the security guards ask for permission to search them?
I haven't heard that.
I've been trying to get in contact with them, but apparently I mean, what?
What I've heard.
I mean, even if even if they ask for permission to search him,
I mean, I really wouldn't see a reason why.
I mean, if a security guard asked me to search me, why?
Because I know infringement of mall rules is not a crime.
It is simply a means for them.
They can kick you out, but they can't say we're going to detain you and search you
just because you broke the rule.
I remember in St.
Louis, the famous baseball cap incident where we got kicked out of the mall
there for wearing baseball caps backwards because
they're not worn.
The hat was not worn in the manner in which it was intended.
And that was a mall rule.
It was actually posted at the front door.
A clothing must be worn in the manner in which it was intended.
God knows what they were thinking when they came up with that one.
But the most they did to us was throw us out, ask us to leave
after a prolonged debate about the law.
But they you know, we finally wound up leaving.
But nobody was searched, detained, anything like that.
That's their specific space.
And they reserve the right to kick you out for any apparent reason.
But they also cannot detain you for any apparent reason,
because that's sort of kidnapping, actually. Yeah.
I mean, it's their own little fiefdom.
They think they can they can do whatever it is they please.
And I think they need to be told that that's not necessarily the case
and that if they are going to kick you out, it has to be for a good reason,
not just any reason that they come up with.
So I think in our case, it's it's a case of Barney fiefdom.
Yes. And the radio waves go quiet.
Well, they like I said, they don't reserve the right.
That's what I've been told.
I haven't looked it up personally, but
they do not reserve the right to search you.
They can't detain you until the police come.
But they detained them and police never came.
Do you think they actually called the police or did they just say they called
the police? I don't know. I was not there.
Well, you know, we can check those records with the police
and see if a call was ever made. Yeah.
See if any kind of record of this exists.
I mean, I think, you know, and this is, of course, subject
to the approval of the people down there.
I think we should pursue this to the fullest degree
and get every fact that there is, you know, exposed.
And that way, at least they know that if they're going to mess with us again,
that they're going to be held accountable for whatever it is that they do.
And if they mess with other people as well.
I mean, you know, the hackers are not the only ones
that are victimized by this kind of thing.
All kinds of people are, you know, victimized in malls by security guards.
And the only way it's going to stop is if, you know, it's
it's made public when it happens.
Yeah, but I know we just we definitely want to know who is behind it.
I mean, just why the phone?
Listen, thanks. Thanks for calling, sir.
Thank you. All right.
But I'm going to go to another phone call.
Two and two, two, seven, nine, three, four hundred.
And let's go over here.
Good evening. You're on the air.
From you to the elevator and up.
There's a conversation in progress.
Let me look in the elevator.
Before you go to the elevator, sir, come back to the phone.
Well, you made a phone call.
Remember us?
By hello. Yes. How you doing?
All right. Good. I just distract.
I want to tell you what's going on in the elevator.
Well, anyway, listen, I was over at the IBM Gallery
and I'm looking at a book on disasters.
Is this Monroe? Yeah.
I haven't heard your voice in such a long time.
Where have you been? I'm on.
But you haven't heard WBAI.
You haven't called me, have you?
Well, I've been trying to.
I'll be honest with you.
Some of the times that you're on and I do try to ring in.
If you listen to some old shows
which are now showing up on the World Wide Web, your voice is prominent on them.
Well, we're talking about back in nineteen eighty nine, you know.
Well, listen, I love your program.
I question some of your attitudes and that's only right.
That we are very questionable. Yes.
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, OK, let's face it.
The big business is worthy of scrupulous
ascertainment. You know what I mean?
Well, big businesses everywhere.
They run the TV networks, the radio stations, dominating our lives
to the point that they exploit poor people in foreign countries
so that they're ruining a business for American workers,
as well as cheating the workers who produce very good products elsewhere.
Now, here's the thing.
I'm over at the IBM Gallery, which is a lovely place.
I'm sitting, minding my own business.
I have a book.
It's about the great disasters of the world in photographs.
And believe me, oh, God, the disasters.
So I stop at a certain point and say, I've got to relax from this.
This is a terrible thing to, you know, one after another.
Some of the four pictures facing each other.
OK, I start to meditate on the meaning of life.
Right there in a public mall.
Yeah. And a guard comes over to me and says, excuse me, sir,
but we don't allow sleeping here.
I said, well, I wasn't sleeping. I was meditating.
I you know, OK, that's one.
Then in Lincoln Center, what happened?
Well, I mean, we had a, you know, a difference of opinion and I didn't sleep.
So they didn't.
Did you stop meditating?
Well, I'm always meditating.
Now, here's the next one.
I'm over in Lincoln Center and and other people have done it as well as I.
You know, you saw the round circle with the pool is the with the
spray of water or going up the mountain.
Yes. And sometimes people have the feeling of lying down
their back and looking up at the sky, at the stars, you know, and at night.
And a guard will come over there and say to you, excuse me,
you're not allowed to do this, you know, lie down.
And it's one thing when a youngster or other people run around the fountain.
I could see maybe they might fall in and, you know, trouble.
You can't get too boisterous.
But to be lying down, it sounds incredible,
especially when the Henry Moore that's over in the pool
is, quote, reclining figure, you know, the amorphous.
Well, yeah, but he's a statue. Yeah.
But I mean, and in the opera and in all the fine arts,
you do have people who are lying down one way or another.
Yes. But I don't think the fine arts and malls, you know,
security guards are really all that comparable, are they?
No, no. But I'm just trying to show you as the horror of it.
You might say 1984 approaches
going backwards in time, you know, to the name of the book by Orwell.
Oh, yes. And what's your is it you
who has the name of Blair or no?
What's the name of?
You don't know. You don't know my name.
Yeah, well, I'm trying to what I can't bring it to mind.
So instantaneously, that's that's give it to us again.
That's that's sad, Monroe.
I know I know your name and you don't know my name.
I mean, that's how do you respond to something like that?
He used to know my name.
He used to talk to me all the time back in back in the day.
Thanks for calling.
We're going to go on to another phone call here.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Well, yes, go ahead.
It's just twenty six hundred.
No, this is off the hook.
But we're sort of the same people.
But yeah, well, what's on your mind?
I just want to say about them all incident.
Yes, go ahead.
Because in New York, this kind of meeting like a couple of months ago,
we also were like, oh, it was different.
Like for the third and the winter,
they kept telling us not to sit around the building because to go to go on
because there's a fire hazard.
But then like we kept moving around so much and they stopped telling us.
So I think that could be probably a solution because they can't actually find you.
Because the meeting held on outside inside the building.
So if if it's a traveling meeting, if you're constantly walking around the mall,
that could that's an idea.
I know with Citicorp, though, it was a problem
because they were constructing the building and all that was left for us
was our little hallway.
And I think that's that's about to be fixed.
The the mall area is actually opening up again.
Yeah, but there was one thing
that was that can you tell us
can you tell me more about the what is called the stalker guy?
Because he was maybe asked on a research institute.
So Intel, like is in an address to put the contact.
I mean, for the Atlanta case.
Yeah, the content will be giving out information at the end of the show.
OK. All right. Thanks for calling. Thanks. Bye.
All right. Let's go on to to another phone call.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Go ahead. Speak up. Oh, boy. That was fast.
Yes. I actually am going to talk about the topic as well. Excellent.
I remember reading or hearing maybe on B.A.I.
most likely about a case where a lady was leafleting in a mall
and they gave her a whole lot of static about it.
And I don't know if it went to the Supreme Court,
but it went through the system and that she was, you know, exonerated.
I mean, apparently some law was there's some fundamental laws about, you know,
even if somebody owns, you know, theoretically a big public
private space is this whole blurring of public and private space.
Like a mall is basically a private area, but they set it up in such a way
that it becomes, you know, a common. Exactly.
Yeah. And so it would be interesting to find out exactly what kind of rights
you have in one of these private, what I call private public spaces.
And also I've kind of, you know, make a parenthetical note
about the whole Barnes and Noble phenomenon.
But what is the whole Barnes and Noble phenomenon?
Well, I mean, the idea of they set the bookstores up as kind of a mini mall,
you know, where you can where they encourage people to come in and,
you know, browse the books and sitting around and drink cappuccino.
And, you know, maybe you'll go home with some books.
And I think it's a startling phenomenon, you know, from a corporate type.
Yeah. I mean, we're turning into a very corporate society.
Baseball stadiums are being named after corporations,
all the radio stations owned by the same companies and and malls,
you know, replacing public squares and serving as public squares themselves.
But with, quote unquote, private private rules.
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what kind of limitations they have in making rules,
because it's not exactly a private space anymore
when they encourage the public to come in in that kind of way.
Right. Where you're not encouraged to come in specifically to shop,
but to, you know, to use it as a gathering place.
So that's why I think you guys ought to pursue it.
I'm certain you will.
But I thought I'd bring up the leafleting thing in case somebody wanted to explore
that. I don't remember the case, you know, that well.
Well, if anyone comes up with the actual particulars involving those cases,
because, you know, we're not lawyers here.
That's that's right. It's one of our shortcomings.
I want to ask one unrelated question really quickly.
I live in a public housing project and they I believe somebody put up
a huge stainless steel box out in front of the building.
I was told that the phone company is now putting their access
panels in these boxes to make them more secure.
Do you know anything about this?
It's supposed to be widespread.
The phone, if they put them in a cardboard box outside your building,
it'll be more secure than what they have now.
So anything really is.
I haven't heard that particular one.
It varies from place to place.
Yeah. So it's quite likely that they're doing something like a mysterious
looking big stainless steel box.
How big is it?
It's about six feet tall and about two and a half feet square.
You could fit a body in there, couldn't you?
Yeah, you could. It looks like a stainless steel phone booth.
It has no markings on it and it has a pretty good lock and hasp assembly on it.
And I asked one I asked one of the other residents.
He thought that he believed it was a phone company
and says that they're fairly widespread.
I figured you'd know.
I mean, if you look if you look closely at it, there should be some sort of label
or marking of some sort that would indicate who owns it.
Yeah. An abbreviation.
Well, was anything written on it?
No, I've inspected it very closely and so far haven't discovered a thing.
It's very mysterious.
And if you want to see it yourself, it's Allen and Hester Street.
It's 45 Allen Street.
OK, we'll go down and take a look.
And if we destroy the thing, we'll see who gets angry.
Yeah, right. We know who it belongs to.
Well, that's that's not the recommended course of right.
Of course not. All right.
Thanks for calling you. Take care.
I think we have time for one or two more phone calls.
So let's try and get them in.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello. Yeah. Speak up.
Oh, yeah. I'm actually calling about the topic tonight.
Everyone's calling about the topic all of a sudden.
This is amazing. Believe it or not, that's that's great.
Well, my understanding is that there's been some case law about the
about the malls, you know, free association and public malls.
And the guys in Atlanta really ought to make friends
with a law student or a law professor and and and check into it.
There's been some case law in Oregon.
Uh huh. And and so they should definitely look at it.
I got to turn down my volume. Yeah.
You're going to get awfully confused.
That's really discombobulated.
So anyway, there's definitely been some some case law
that's come down through the courts.
Is this federal or state?
Well, it varies from state to state.
I mean, it's obviously going to, you know, in a mall,
it's going to vary from state to state.
I have absolutely no idea what's gone on in Georgia,
but they should definitely look into it and think of it this way.
If they were a group that was by somehow, you know, connected racially,
say it was, you know, you know, a black political group or, you know,
an Asian political group or something, you know, something like that,
they'd have an enormous
discrimination case against that mall.
Why wouldn't they have a case for age discrimination
or some other especially with the people of your kind remark?
That's yeah, yeah, that's exactly my point. Exactly my point.
So they should definitely fight.
You don't acquiesce to something like this at all.
Very good point. Thank you very much for the input.
You bet. All right. Take care.
One more call. Good evening.
You're on the air.
Speak up, please.
Oh, hi, Izumi. Yes, it's you.
I made it. Oh, great.
I want to talk about the topic, too. OK.
I'm just curious, why not hold the meetings in cities
where you're not exactly welcome, either in a public park
or I thought of Wendy's, you know, Dave Thomas,
the owner of Wendy's seems to be politically progressive.
So maybe you can sort of make some sort of arrangement
to hold in the local Wendy's.
I don't know if that would be acceptable to have it
in one particular place.
Maybe maybe you will take once to comment on that.
Yeah, well, right now, currently,
mostly Atlanta hackers here have decided that we're going to move it
to an Internet cafe for a lot of different reasons,
because, you know, you can smoke in there is good coffee, food.
And and we have they have penny and pros with T1 access to the Internet.
And it's a really nice place and all, but it's not really all that great.
Accessible by transportation wise.
But I just got a brief question unrelated.
You have 10 seconds with caller ID with name.
Why does it take two rings to register?
Why isn't it instantaneous?
I'll let Fiber get that one.
OK, take care of Monroe.
I don't know what to say about Monroe, but I already hit the button.
Really, really. Yeah, because I don't have the feature.
You don't know. OK, that's that's a good answer.
Thank you. As far as as far as moving the meeting,
you know, I just want to remind you guys that one of the main things
we do at these meetings is try to get away from computers for a little while.
So while Internet cafes are great, having the meetings there,
it's kind of like you'd never really leave your house, you know,
and you go right back onto the Internet and just stare at a computer screen.
Having them in malls is kind of cool because you get to for one thing.
You're not just talking amongst yourselves.
You're meeting new people,
people that just happen to wander by and have never even heard of hackers before.
And maybe they'll get, you know, a positive view of them.
So that's something that I know we'll be talking about in the weeks ahead.
Is there a low take?
Is there any kind of way people can get ahold of you or any any other person
that's involved in this?
Yes. You can email me at low underscore tech.
That's LOW underscore TK at Bell South dot net.
The if you want to contact the person who is detained,
you can email him at Kass one.
That's K A S S one at Minespring dot com.
And I don't know if if I just missed anything or if
anybody has any good comments to make, just email me.
OK, well, thanks so much for being with us tonight.
And best of luck to you. We'll be updating people in the weeks ahead.
All right. Take care of you.
That's going to do it for for us here tonight.
We're back again next Tuesday night at eight o'clock.
Until then, have a cheery week. Good night.
Good night.
Greetings, this is Raven inviting you to the Bring Peltier Home campaign.
Sponsored by the Leonard Peltier Support Groups of Brooklyn, New York, and New Jersey.
Speakers will include Dennis Banks, National Field Director of the American Indian Movement,
Heath St. John, Starr Nyea, and Anthony Red Jacket.
Performances by the Colorado Sisters, Inti, Derek Deskins, Drum Circle Singers,
Full River Native American Drum Circle, and Shank. Wednesday, April 30th from 7 to 11 p.m.
at the Catholic Center, 58 Washington Square South, New York City.
For more information you can call...