For further information call 212-663-3805, that's 212-663-3805.
And it's just about 10 o'clock and it's a Wednesday which means it's time for another
exciting edition of Off The Hook.
One, two, three, four.
And a very good evening to one and all.
This is Emanuel Goldstein with another edition of Off The Hook.
And this promises to be a very exciting one because there's a lot going on.
This is our last program for the next two weeks.
We're not on next week because of fundraising by the computer people.
Not that we're not the computer people, too, but we're a different kind of computer people.
Isn't that right, Faber?
Yeah, I guess so.
We're slightly different.
We're definitely computer people.
So we have a two-hour special, I believe, the week after that.
And we'll be raising all kinds of fundage then.
And that will be... you like that word, huh?
Fundage, yeah, I like that.
That's a good word.
So we have some late-breaking news stories that are coming our way.
First of all, the Bernie S. situation.
He had his suppression hearing today.
Aren't you going to ask me what happened?
Yeah, what happened?
I don't know.
I have no idea what happened.
In fact, we're waiting for a phone call from Bernie S.
Hopefully he will come in at some point during this hour where he'll tell us.
He'll either be calling us from prison or maybe he won't be in prison anymore.
So we don't really know what the situation is with that.
We have more of a late-breaking news story coming from some place further away,
namely the hacker-friendly, up until now, country of Holland,
which had a raid yesterday by the Church of Scientology.
You remember it was a while ago, a few months ago,
where the Church of Scientology raided the anonymous remailer in Finland.
And we were all kind of shocked when that happened.
How could such a thing happen to some place in Finland?
The Church of Scientology, what kind of power did these guys have?
I'm going to read you a little bit of a press release
and then we're going to speak to somebody who was actually there
and a part of this whole thing.
No, they're not from the Church of Scientology. Don't worry about that.
Actually, you know what? We're not going to read that
because I don't have that piece of paper on me right now.
It must still be someplace else.
So let me introduce Rob from Amsterdam right now
who's going to tell us in his own words what happened.
Rob, are you there?
I'm here. Hello there.
How are you doing? It must be 4 o'clock in the morning over there in Amsterdam.
Yeah, I just came home from a party, so it wasn't that bad.
Well, that's what Amsterdam's all about.
Tell us, now this happened yesterday.
The Church of Scientology really raided the offices of Access For All,
the Internet provider.
Yes, they did.
Well, it wasn't really a raid
and it wasn't really the Church of Scientology performing it,
but it was the Church of Scientology behind it all
and there were some Scientology members present.
Yeah, I found the piece of paper I was looking for, actually.
Supposedly this person was acting on behalf of the Religious Technology Center.
Is that right?
Which is the front for the Scientology organization.
The Scientology Church has about 200 companies and groups and churches
and everything registered all over the world.
But the Religious Technology Center is one of their core organizations
that form the Scientology organization.
What happened is one of our...
No, let's go further back in time.
At one point in time, Access For All was running what is called an Anonymous Remailer.
You may have discussed an Anonymous Remailer, how it works in your program.
What happens is people send mail to an Anonymous Remailer
and then it gets remailed, but the name is removed from it,
so people can use Anonymous Remailers to stay anonymous on the Internet.
A lot of people, and really a lot of people,
were using the Access For All Remailer at one point
to criticize the Church of Scientology, its methods,
and really showing what the Church of Scientology really is,
which is an ugly money-scam cult.
In your opinion.
Of course, in my opinion.
But what happened then...
This is really funny.
There was a lot of letters going back and forth between us,
between our lawyer, I should say, and their lawyer,
concerning this Anonymous Remailer question, what to do about it.
And two months ago, we decided, for other reasons as well as this reason,
to no longer run the Anonymous Remailer,
to no longer have an Anonymous Remailer on Access For All,
in the Access For All domain.
Apparently, this has escaped the attention of the Church of Scientology,
or they didn't want to see this.
Because yesterday, people came in with a signed paper saying,
our Anonymous Remailer was being used in copyright violations
against the Church of Scientology.
Now, you stopped using the Anonymous Remailer. Why again?
For a number of reasons, this being one of them.
We didn't feel like being such a primary target
when there was other places in Holland and all over the world
where new Anonymous Remailers could be much easier set up.
Because running an Anonymous Remailer puts your organization
at a substantial risk of being raided, for real.
Remember, nothing was taken from here.
Let me get on with the story.
These people came in here for a legal procedure,
which in Holland is called beslaglegging.
I have no idea if there's an English word for it.
What it means is the following.
If you're going to sue somebody in a civil case in Holland,
you have the right to...
If you can convince a judge that your lawsuit is for real
and that you really have something to claim,
then you can go by and write down what this person owns,
and then sue them for what they own,
so they can't move it out of their place once they get sued.
In other words, as long as this thing is going on,
we can't sell any of our equipment
of which the serial numbers were written down.
So basically, we are tied to our belongings
until this procedure is over.
I don't think there's anything similar in this country.
I've never heard of such a thing. Have you, Mark?
No, I can't say I have.
Actually writing down what somebody owns?
But that's the only thing they were allowed to do.
They were not allowed to touch any keyboards.
They were not allowed to look in any computers,
go through our files or anything.
What happened was a group of people coming in
and writing down the serial numbers of our machines.
That's very interesting.
Now, you have to prove, though,
that you intend to go through with the lawsuit
in order to get the right to do that.
I mean, you can't just walk over to, say, the PTT
and say you intend to sue them one day
and write down all their serial numbers.
You can't do that, right?
It's a little bit harder to convince a judge.
We're still wondering how they convinced the judge
because once they came in here,
they came with a completely different story.
The anonymous re-mailer was never mentioned.
They had a new letter from their lawyer to us,
and this time it was concerning
somebody's home page on Access For All.
We have a user by the name of Fonse S
who is disseminating information
critical of the Church of Scientology
and also a supposedly copyrighted document,
and he was disseminating that from his home page
on Access For All on the World Wide Web.
We told them that that was this user's page
and that we didn't feel entitled to do anything about that,
that this was between them and that user.
They didn't feel that.
They felt it was our responsibility
as publishers of this home page
to take the information off,
and they were even willing to drop the procedure right there
if we just removed this user,
which we refused to do.
So now where do things stand at this moment?
Well, that's the funny part.
They came in at 2 in the afternoon.
They left a few minutes before 3,
and they were really sorry they were ever in there
by 5 or 6 in the evening.
Why is that?
Because I don't think they realized
how much press calls they would be getting.
I don't think they realized what this would stir up.
By 6 in the evening, we received a call from them
saying that they were not going on with the procedure
and that we could...
the beslag legging, in other words,
the freeze on our assets was over,
that they were giving that up,
and that has been confirmed by a letter from their lawyer today.
So even though they came in at 2 and left at 3,
they wanted to quickly forget about the whole thing
by 6 in the afternoon.
And to what do you attribute that?
I attribute that to massive support
from a lot of people all over the world,
not even just in Holland,
which was mostly because we posted messages on the Internet.
So the Internet comes to the rescue again,
as far as getting the word out.
There's always other possibilities.
There's a few strange things about this whole case.
We're in here for less than an hour
writing down serial members,
yet there was two people there
who even admitted that they were Scientology members,
a Mr. Waitman and a Mrs. Jensen.
They admitted they were from Scientology,
and they were flown in for this to Amsterdam from Los Angeles.
I can only guess they were flown in from Los Angeles,
but that's what we would guess.
They were flown into Holland, especially for this case,
and then flown back afterwards.
In other words, these people came to Amsterdam for a day
to witness the writing down of serial members.
What a trip. That's something.
Talk about jet lag, you know?
Flying all the way over there,
writing down some serial numbers and flying back.
Rob, we're going to be putting you on hold just for a second
because I think we might be getting a call from Bernie S.
Sure.
So let's see if he's, in fact, on the line.
Is Bernie S. on the line?
This is Locktell.
You have a collect call from Bernie S.
Well, that means he's still in prison,
so let's hit 9 to accept the call.
Please go ahead. You are now connected.
Bernie S.
Yes, it's Bernie S, and yes, I'm still in federal prison.
Yes, we guessed that.
Let's just introduce you to Rob,
who's also on the line from Amsterdam.
Hello, Rob.
Hi there.
Long time no talk, or see.
Rob is updating us on the recent,
I don't know if we want to call it a raid or a visit
by the Church of Scientology
to the offices of Access for All in Holland
in search of a, I guess, a copyrighted document.
Is that really a fair way to put this?
They weren't in search of it.
They had already found it.
They just wanted really badly
for this document not to be spread anymore.
Uh-huh.
Well, on the Internet, that's rather difficult to stop.
Yes.
I mean, theoretically,
what would they have to do to prevent this document?
They'd have to...
Farber, is there any way for them to stop this?
They'd have to raid everybody everywhere.
But there'd be copies all over the place.
They'd have to shut down the whole Internet
and then go through everyone's files.
I mean, these guys have got to get a grip.
Well, the case is really interesting
because the document in question is a so-called Fishman Affidavit.
Uh-huh.
And Fishman is a guy that was once a Scientology member
who committed a lot of crimes on behalf of Scientology
and was in his affidavit to his court case
was telling the world about this.
Uh-huh.
And his affidavit included a number of copyrighted texts from Scientology,
which were included in the documentation to the case.
And so everybody could basically order this heavily guarded Scientology text,
which they're only selling for $100,000
if you get up to a certain level in their organization.
And everybody could order these texts for $5 at some U.S. district court.
So they were really upset.
And now they had a judge reseal the documents.
Uh-huh.
So basically a once publicly available document is now secret and copyrighted again.
Now, if I were to say that since this particular incident yesterday in Amsterdam
I've received dozens of copies of that copyrighted document in my mailbox,
would I be in trouble for admitting that in their eyes?
Well, if you are in trouble, a lot of people are
because that document is not going away.
In fact, it's spreading so fast over the Internet
that it's producing a significant load on FTP traffic and copyrighted traffic worldwide.
Oh, boy.
There's a whole other crisis here then.
My small understanding of copyright law, Emanuel,
is that if you facilitate the distribution of a copyrighted text
without the authorization of the copyright holder,
then you are liable.
Uh-huh.
So simply receiving it in your mailbox would not be a copyright violation as I understand it.
Okay.
So if someone were to send that to Emanuel at 2600.com, I would not be in trouble.
I wouldn't think so.
Okay.
That's all I wanted to know.
All right.
However, if someone...
I'm glad we cleared that up.
However, if someone put that on your website
and then other people were to copy it off of there...
Right.
We'd be disseminating it then.
Okay.
Listen, Bernie S., we don't want to take up too much of your time.
Tell us what happened today.
You had your suppression hearing this morning.
Suppression hearing.
I didn't want to...
I wasn't public about the suppression hearing prior
because we didn't want to tip our hand too much to the government.
But today...
Tomorrow my trial is scheduled,
but the day before we had this special hearing to determine
or to try to prove that the government seized evidence from me illegally,
namely a box of quartz crystals and other electronic components
was seized from my possession that I was holding in a box in a parking lot
from a by-police officer who didn't ask me to take it,
didn't ask for my consent, and I protested that he took it.
And they just held on to it for a few days
and then determined that illegal things could have been done with these parts.
And that's what started this whole thing.
It started what led to an arrest warrant for me by the Secret Service,
which then led to a search of my home,
which then led to them finding cellular phones
and cellular phone programming software,
which led to federal charges.
And the original charges were all dropped.
But in any case, today we tried to convince a federal judge
that this box of parts was seized without a warrant,
without probable cause, and without my consent.
And unfortunately the one thing I just didn't count on
was a local law enforcement officer
who was involved in this original incident
claiming that I gave him consent to take this box from me
and that I handed it to him.
In fact, he is not the person who even took it from me.
The person who took it from me wasn't even at this hearing.
But it just came down to a credibility issue
of this police officer with years of experience
versus an alleged computer hacker.
And unfortunately the judge ruled on the side of the government,
which I guess shouldn't be too surprising.
You're saying that this cop who wasn't even there
came to the hearing today and said that you offered him the box of evidence?
He was there.
He just wasn't the person who took the box away from me.
Another uniformed police officer took it away from me,
just seized it, grabbed it from under my arm,
just pulled it away, and when I protested he told me to shut up.
The officer who came today is a detective
who was in charge of the whole thing going on at the time.
He was there, and he ultimately, at the end of that incident,
refused to give the box back to me.
But he was not the person who actually took it from me.
But he said he was.
Today he said he was the person who took it from me
after I gave him permission to take it,
and actually after I handed it to him,
neither of which happened.
So it's unfortunate.
What can you say?
When you get into a world where people will say anything that's not true,
it turns into an Alice in Wonderland-type situation
where you can't count on anything, and logic goes out the window.
So how do you deal with that?
Well, it takes away whatever faith you might have had left in the justice system
when cops would do things like that.
I've already lost that over the past six months.
Oh, yeah, I can imagine you certainly have.
You lose even more faith in the human condition.
So now if they lied today,
then we can assume they'll be lying throughout this entire thing.
Well, that's true,
but this local law enforcement officer really won't have as much to say at the trial
because his involvement stemmed from the state charges,
which were ultimately dropped and replaced by federal charges.
So we will have testimony tomorrow and Friday, ostensibly,
by federal experts who will say that computer hardware and software
could have been used for programming cellular phones
and that touch-tone dialers in my possession
could have been used to generate coin tones for the commission of pay phones.
But nobody is saying that they were ever used for that purpose.
There's no allegation or charges that I ever did either of these things.
The charges are that possessing these items constitutes intent to defraud,
and therefore it is in violation of these two brand-new federal statutes,
which you have a copy of.
These two statutes, one of which is whoever with the intent to defraud,
I'm paraphrasing here,
whoever with the intent to defraud possesses a modified telecommunications instrument
that enables unauthorized access to telecommunications services
is guilty of this statute, and it's a federal felony.
The second one is whoever with the intent to defraud possesses hardware or software
for the modification of telecommunications instruments
for the unauthorized use of telecommunications services
is guilty of this statute, and that is also a new federal felony.
No one in the country has ever been charged with either of these two statutes before.
I am the test case for the government.
And it's troubling because the definitions of those two statutes
could cover a whole bunch of experimenting that people are engaging in all over the world
and who aren't actually committing any crimes yet.
But just having things that could be used for this
can now be charged as a federal felony if the government can prove intent.
Now, Bernie, they also were supposed to decide on the bail issue today, were they not?
I was mistaken about that, Emanuel.
I was under the understanding that would be decided today,
but maybe it was wishful thinking on my part.
I thought my attorney had told me that.
Last night I'm like, well, what about the bail?
Actually, you and I and he were on a conference call a couple days ago.
Was it yesterday?
Yeah, it was. Actually, it was two days ago.
Actually, I think I asked him about that,
and that's when I learned, as a matter of fact, during that conference call with the two of you,
that that bail issue wasn't going to be decided today after all.
So that was a rude surprise.
Well, when will that be decided?
Well, it's kind of a moot point now because my trial is tomorrow.
The judge's schedule will not permit a bail hearing to be held
since all of tomorrow's and Friday's schedules will be filled with jury proceedings,
not jury proceedings, but jury selection and all that stuff.
So after the trial is over, maybe you'll get a bail hearing is what you're telling me.
Well, I'll either be acquitted.
Let's hope so.
In which case, bail will be irrelevant, or I'll be convicted and bail will be irrelevant.
So in either case, there's going to be no bail hearing.
Bail will be irrelevant and there won't be any bail,
and I will have remained in federal prison or in prison,
but stayed in federal total for six months without bail.
Unbelievable.
Well, now, for those people that are interested in actually going to the trial tomorrow,
first of all, will they be let in?
Yes.
They will be.
Okay.
Do you want to give details as to exactly where it is?
No one will be able to bring electronic devices with them,
but like cellular phones or tape recorders or camcorders or things like that.
So be forewarned because there's no storage areas for these things once you come into the building.
Actually, you can put them in your car.
But in any case, the location is Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
at the federal courthouse, which is at 601 Market Street in Philadelphia.
The trial begins at 10 a.m. in courtroom 9B in Bravo.
An interesting thing happened today halfway through the suppression hearing.
When things really seemed to be going our way, sirens started going off in the courtroom.
And I was ecstatic prior to the sirens going off because things seemed to be going really well.
And then all this noise started going on and sirens were going and lights were flashing
and I turned to the secret service agent world around and looked at some of the computer hackers
who were sitting in the peanut gallery and eyeing them with bad intent
and assuming they had been responsible for this klaxon.
And it turns out the federal building was on fire.
The federal building was on fire that you were inside?
Yes.
Oh, great.
It was a large building, but there was an electrical fire on the floor directly below us, and hence the fire alarm.
The judge was really annoyed by this interruption and thought it was a fire drill
and really got bent out of shape about it.
So in any case, the entire building had to be evacuated.
So what, you conducted proceedings on the front lawn?
Unfortunately, the only people who were truly evacuated from the building were non-prisoners.
I was led down to the holding cell where I'd been waiting in the morning before I went to this hearing
and put in leg irons and handcuffs and locked in a cell on the second floor of the building.
The fire was on the seventh floor.
You were locked in a building that was burning?
That's correct, along with several other inmates, and then everybody left.
And I guess we were just there to burn in leg irons in a cell
or hopefully the fire would be put out before then.
Since the fire was above us, I guess they figured there was less danger.
In any case, the marshals disappeared for quite a while.
Bernie, up until now I've believed the whole story, but you're making all this up, aren't you?
You're actually sitting at home someplace.
You've been sitting at home for six months making up this fantastic story about being led away and no bail
and burning buildings and all that kind of thing.
This can't happen in this country, can it?
Talk to my attorney.
He'll tell you the same thing.
Well, okay, but if you want to see it for yourself, folks,
I suggest you go down to that trial tomorrow and just witness this, because this is unbelievable.
The things that have happened to you are just unbelievable.
I wouldn't believe it myself if it weren't happening to me.
Hey, Rob, over there in Amsterdam, you've been kept abreast of this case, I imagine,
but I'm right to be shocked, aren't I?
Well, I don't know.
I've had some nasty surprises about the state of democracy over there and also over here.
I'm not sure I'm easily surprised anymore, but it is definitely weird.
It is beyond weird.
Yeah, well, we'll have some people down there tomorrow, Bernie,
and hopefully things will finally go your way and this whole nightmare can be put behind us.
Either way, though, if you are on the Internet and you want to find out how things are going,
you can finger the site bernies at 2600.com.
We'll be putting updates on there.
And also, of course, you can send mail to that address,
and it will be forwarded to Bernie S. either in prison or outside of prison,
depending on where he is next week.
I have one minute to go before the federal prison phone will cut me off.
I wanted to interject one last comment,
and that is the federal government tried to admit or did send additional information to my attorney yesterday
with new evidence they wanted to admit at the last minute
regarding cellular telephone calls that had been made in California up to two years ago,
and they were trying to attribute them to me,
regardless of the fact that I've never been to California in my life.
But in any case, they were trying to drag these in without any explanation
as to how I could have been responsible for them
since I had no phones that were programmed with these numbers.
But unfortunately, they didn't provide crucial information like the exact dates of all these calls.
They just sort of said within a general time period,
and we don't have the time to thoroughly research and disprove all of these things.
So the plot thickens, and hopefully justice will prevail.
Okay. With that, Bernie S. has been cut off,
and that's the last we'll hear from him for a while.
Of course, we won't be on next week,
so if you want to find out what happens at the trial,
I guess the best way is to check in on the Internet site
and also just talk to people on the net in various ways.
I want to thank you for the updates on Scientology.
Is there anything that you left out?
I don't think so.
What is really on my mind now is that if you're fighting the federal government
or if you're fighting the Church of Scientology,
at least with the federal government you have some idea of what they're going to do.
The Church of Scientology has us worried for a number of reasons.
One of them is that they are extremely rich,
that they are known to drag court procedures on and on and on
until you just can't afford them anymore,
and that there's no real rhyme and reason to what they're doing.
It's really funny.
What we're up against is really funny.
Not just us, but the entire net for disseminating information about Scientology.
It's a case about the very principles that lie underneath the net.
It certainly is.
But the important thing for you to remember is that you're not alone.
You've got a lot of people out there on the net that are watching this case.
We have found out that we're not alone.
We've received, I think, over 250 support emails now.
Not just people, but organizations telling us,
if you ever need new computer stuff or if you ever need our people to work on your case,
just tell us what to do.
We've received a lot of support, really.
Let's hope that some anonymous emails go back up over there, some more of them.
Let's hope this inspires lots of people to do just that,
because anonymous communication is something I think that's essential in this day and age.
Yeah, definitely.
All right, Rob, best of luck to you over there.
Extend our support to everybody, and please keep us updated.
We'll do the same over here.
Okay, Mark, Emmanuel, good luck with the rest of the show.
Okay, thanks.
We'll certainly need it, I think.
Thanks again over there in Amsterdam.
We'll be back in a minute, taking your phone calls, 212-279-3400.
When I got back home I found a message on the door
Sweet Regina's gone to China, prospect on the floor
On a burning jet that's smoothly flying
Burning airlines with you, sailor on board
How does she intend to live when she's in Bobcat Bay?
I somehow can't imagine her just planting rice all day
Maybe she will do a bit of flying
With microchip grows hidden in her hair
I guess Regina's on the plane, a news week on her knees
While miles below the curlews call from strangely stunted trees
The page it sends, it's just as though he's flying
Regina's jet distance is whiskey beer
When you reach Kyoto, send a postcard if you can
And please convey my fond regards to Chee House, girl you land
I hope you know we were getting married
But suddenly it was in July
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
Left her in Japan
and we're back here on off the hook and our phone number is 2 1 2 2 7 9 3 4 100
that was what I was old that was Brian Eno from talking Tiger Mountain we also
want to wish Pam a speedy recovery it was one of our regular listeners
actually one of our regular people here it's not here now okay so now we've done
that let's go back to the telephone 2 1 2 2 7 9 3 400 where you can tell us
what's on your mind or what you think of what's happening here or whatever 2 1 2
2 7 9 3 400 good evening you're on off the hook
good evening Emanuel I stumbled on something quite interesting concerning
the Church of Scientology a book writer by the name of Walter Martin he passed
away in 1989 he had a book called kingdom of the cults and they had he
has a section in Scientology and you're not going to believe this they had this
thing called operation snow white which was an intelligence gathering operation
and for what the this book what I got from this book is basically they had
dossiers on Nelson Rockefeller and even on their then president Richard
Milhouse Nixon well I guess they just wanted to be thorough oh yeah
concerning a little more if you don't mind about the telephonic nature of
things I've come across pay phones in South Jersey where if you follow the
instructions you know pick up you know for local calls you pick up listen for
dial tone deposit 20 cents and make your call and I still get the little thing
we're sorry a 20 cent deposit is you know required for this call and so I
called up the operator and I could normally place the call but you know
it's another thing about Bell Atlantic and I I dialed into a cold cotton I got
this modem and at the end I was listening to the line just for the hell
of it and this is what I got just listen it may be a little loud okay
0 8 7 7 5 7 6 2 5 81 dollars a month for a month 15 a month 16 and that's
like the thing with pay phones well now what kind of pay phone is this it didn't
look cheesy like the ones with that like that Sam blasted chrome finish on it it
was just it looked like a standard Bell phone but obviously it wasn't I mean
it's telling you it's telling you how much money is in the phone I believe
that's that's what it sounded like and I guess various alarm states which you
know you'd have to have some sort of a manual to to look up as to what exactly
they mean okay well I doubt the Bell Atlantic people are going to help you
since they're not Bell Atlantic phones so I guess he said what he had to say
but if they're not Bell Atlantic phones you have to you have to complain to the
people that actually on the phones okay two one two two seven nine three four
hundred good evening you're on the air this is your lucky day I have I have two
questions one is can you give this phone number that does what does 958 on the
air let me just turn off the radio actually because I'm hearing myself
hold on one sec I'm not quite sure what he what he means by that okay it's it's
well gosh I've look at a phone it's 1-800 my Annie is that translates to
1-800-692-6447 I just can't think the other thing is I think it's a bit too
late I was calling before when the fellow was on on the radio from the
prison and I wish he could have heard this but I think they should subpoena
the police log because I assume they don't have the name of the other officer
they should subpoena all documents concerning the patrol that arrested him
so that they could actually have the arresting officer in the room because
the other guy lied and these things carry a little weight you know in a
courtroom when the judge actually is confronted by somebody who is lying and
and I'm sure that if this man was there he would have a conflicting story with
his partner even if they try to hone in it would be very interesting and they
should do that I'll hang up and listen to your comments okay well I mean we've
what do you think of this fibers whole policeman lying on the stand thing I
mean well I mean it's not exactly a big shock to me when we were preparing for
trial and we had some some pre-trial hearings filing for motions and things
like that there were numerous instances where Secret Service agents lied on the
stand and to what degree to the degree that they claim that they lost evidence
that they lost logs that they lost files that they lost transcripts and so on and
so forth which would be to your advantage files that no actually no why
would they lose something that would be to our advantage I'm saying the fact
that if they hadn't lost it their existence would be to your advantage
yeah their existence exactly right I mean they would be in possession of
something that would show that they did something crooked where in fact they
claim that they lost it and the judge completely believe them because judges
tend to always rule on the side of the government very interesting razor you're
here and you have something to say about the Bernie s situation what's that well
I just kind of watching this whole thing unfold and listening and observing just
like anybody else I think it's a great travesty of the justice system for
something is incomprehensible is this to occur the fact that a prisoner was left
in chains to burn in the event of a possible fire seems kind of like a harsh
punishment for sale of so-called illicit material well I think it's more not not
so much a harsh punishment is just standard treatment of prisoners yeah but
when standard treatment of prisoners incurs entails you know burning someone
at the cross for for selling stuff you can buy out of a magazine it seems kind
of silly yeah no I seems kind of criminal to me actually that that kind of
thing would happen and that's that's something I find hard to believe
actually I don't find hard to believe maybe that's what's amazing is that
we're getting numb to all this all right let's take another phone call two
one two two seven nine three four hundred good evening you're on go ahead
speak hello yes go ahead you're on my phone down radio down for a second I
heard an interview a while back about where one of the people there was
talking about ISDN and a way of getting local calls not to get the two-cent
charge per minute one cent in New York I think it's what five cents in
Delatlantic yes so they said there's a way of configuring your ISDN line so
that it would not charge you that you actually just configure your hardware
with and what you actually do is set up the call as an audio call and connected
56 kilobits instead of 64 and if you do that you'll you'll actually be charged
only only the cost for a normal local call which in New York is 10.6 cents you
won't achieve the high speed of 64 but you will achieve the speed of 56 yeah I
mean at an 8 kilobit hit you don't get billed a penny a minute which is well
worth it right okay great I appreciate that and how do I initiate my data
connection after that this is actually in your hardware normally you would set
a register in your hardware that would say set up the call as an audio call and
connect using data okay it's automatic it all depends on what ISDN hardware you
have okay I use a Gandalf box and a three com network card I haven't used
either of them personally okay okay we wish you luck with that all right thank
you take care I think a lot more people are getting onto ISDN yeah what I'm
hearing you know we were the pioneers back this spring and we have to go
through that ridiculous journey to get it but now that we've got it people seem
to be getting a lot easier and in fact becoming more more I guess educated as
to how it all works how it all ties together so we'll be ISDN next couple of
days at 2600 yeah as far as 22.com that should improve our connect rate quite a
bit good evening you're on the air speak up okay people let me let me just say
right here now when I pick up the phone you should be there you shouldn't be on
another part of the room another part of the house you know out doing errands you
should be on the phone that's you know make the phone call stay on the phone
and then we'll pick it up and we can talk all right let's see if this next
person understands that good evening you're on the air
good evening ha very good I'm right here I'm not in another part of the room
right isn't that nice you know next thing so easy actually I wasn't
listening to to be a I until just about five minutes ago because I heard about
it on IRC oh really there's a channel called hash mark clam bake is devoted
largely to discussions of all religions Scientology Scientology in general and
someone said hey Rob is on BAI and I said okay I'll have to tune in at any
rate just to fill you in there was someone who called earlier but
operations know why that did happen and in Mary Sue Hubbard
Delron Hubbard's wife and I think nine other Scientologists were guilty she
went to jail for five years and well she was sentenced for five years and fined
$10,000 for it's essentially conspiring to infiltrate the FBI and steel and IRS
etc anyway but that's not what I'm calling about I essentially didn't know
anything about Scientology until a few months ago when I heard about their
attacks on the internet and I've been devoted to a devoted reader of all
religion Scientology which is getting more and more difficult all the time
because the volume is getting so huge it's gone from about 300 posters about a
month and a half ago I think last week we had 300 posters a week now it's about
650 in the past week so it's doubled in a little over a month well what kind of
percentage of the posters are a pro Scientology what percentage are anti
well virtually none of them are pro Scientology I think most of the lower
level Scientologists have been warned away from even reading the news group
because of the what they call and that are spread there that is spread there in
other words the bad vibes however the as I understand it the intelligence and PR
wing of the church has sent a few people in and there are some posts that are
just for the most part incredibly lame about you know the what wonderful things
Scientology did for some unnamed person or or something like that or otherwise
another thing that they do before they raided Larry Wallersheim I don't know if
you covered this in your earlier talk they raided a computer user in Colorado
and took his a bulletin board operator and took his computer etc and this is
about a week and a half ago before they raided him they they posted the PR
person for the church posted an enormous pack of essentially ad hominem attacks
against him and then three days later he was raided for copyright infringement
and later they found that the list of words they were searching for included a
lot of names of people who were critics of theirs including those posting to the
bulletin board and I can assure you those names were not in the copyrighted
secret scriptures at any rate I there is some there's some plan to have a
worldwide ticket of Scientology this Saturday for it to protest both in
general the tactics of the leadership of the church although I think most people
don't deny anyone the right to pursue whatever religion they choose I think
the tactics of the leadership are disreputable and should be taken well I
think the true measure of a religion is how how that religion treats its critics
and I don't think Scientology is really getting high marks in that regard well
I'll have to go along with you there and I wasn't even a critic until a couple
months ago and I've already gotten a threatening legal email or quasi legal
email but um so and also just and also for the people who are upset about the
general attack on the internet and there's really not been much
organization in New York but considering that I have this mouthpiece on WBAI maybe
if people want to consider picketing or contact someone about it I would be
willing to take on that that role although I haven't done much about it
yet and they could email me if they wish okay give out your address okay it's
Spurgeon that's spelled S-P-U-R-G-E-O-N at I-S-2 dot N-Y-U dot E-D-U okay so
anyone who said oh and all the people on Clambeck say hi to you Emanuel they're
big fans of yours okay well we extend the greeting right back to them well
that we just had a net split so it'll take me a few minutes to get it to us
but it's good talking to you okay what would IRC be without net splits thanks
very much bye take care okay we are giving out a couple more addresses here
for people that are interested in this the Scientology thing first of all the
home page for the person that was at the center of it all the user on access for
all if you want to see what what was on there I understand he took off the the
offending piece that supposedly got them to come in here in the first place but
there is a link to another site that has that very very same document so you can
you can see what what's what's there what the whole mess is all about on the
World Wide Web or use links or whatever whatever you use to look at these things
the address is HTTP colon double slash www.xs for the number for a LL okay the
letter X letter s the number for a LL dot nl slash then that little squiggle
thing what do they call that tilde tilde right whatever the squiggle thing fo n
ss fo n ss that's the username there and you can just connect over there and see
what's there a couple of other sites HTTP colon slash slash www.cybercom
cybercom.net slash squiggle are Newman are any wman slash Scientology slash
home.html also newsgroups alt.religion.scientology as the call just
mentioned all that censorship and alt.clearing.technology and also all
alt.2600 now since access for all was was included here I don't know these
uh these these mega corporation religious types that kind of going to be
concerned about them today yeah in fact it's so mainstream now that of all
places I saw a report on cults on MTV a few weeks ago and Scientology was
mentioned and in fact I did mention that whole thing about L. Ron Hubbard's wife
doing all this and that and they didn't after I saw it it didn't sound like a
very friendly organization the thing that really that really startled me is
the number of Hollywood stars that are Scientologists yeah quite a few John
Travolta yeah John Travolta is one Joker you have you have some info for yeah
that's exactly what I was gonna talk about is the fact that uh they do have
all this money and power you get a lot of these Hollywood stars who I think like
a lot of people probably come from all sorts of different backgrounds where they
have you know I mean myself being raised Catholic and now I'm in recovery and you
know you know I just I just grew out of it I don't go to church I'm not around my
family anymore and they I don't really know a lot about Scientology's ideas but
it seems to appeal to these people with with money and backing and it seems like
a mafia I mean they all scratch each other's back the name that I was going to
mention was Tom Cruise yeah yeah I mean I knew John Travolta but I mean Tom Cruise
and with this sort of backing and they have people being you know like the
remailers who are being able to post things about them I can see where they're
you know really sketched about bad publicity because they have all these
well-known people and it kind of I guess shines on them a little bit too so I
don't know who's protecting whose interest but I could see where some of
these stars would not want a lot of negative press about their religion and
about them because it's exactly like us talking about it Scientology gets a slap
in the face and then all their names are brought up it's like Oh Scientology is
doing all these bad things and by the way John Travolta and Tom Cruise are
Scientologists you know I mean yeah so I hope this radio station is known by the
Scientology we find out these things sometimes you know without knowing it
but now I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure it's still Pacifica so all right thank
God for that yeah it's scary it really is you know what's funny though the the
I'm not saying that the Scientology is doing this but certain cult
organizations they they pick the organizations that are going after cults
and they accuse them of being cults they say these organizations that are going
around shutting down cults are cults themselves and they they give all this
evidence and show how they they have their own doctrines and and they won't
let people leave their organizations and things like that it's kind of kind of
weird you know so let's take another phone call good evening you're on hi I
wanted to ask you a question about IDT internet have you heard about that I've
heard their their ads yeah I don't know anything about the actual service because
they claim to have just a flat $15 a month rate and claim that then they
don't have the censorship that all the big companies have almost seems too good
to be true well censorship is something that only a few companies really have
AOL has censorship G prodigy a censorship computer of the day has
answered I don't think that comp has censorship joker what do you have
speaking of cults there's actually I think it's in the new issue of internet
world there's an interesting little blurb about prodigy's new logo which is
a star it looks like a pentagram it's really funny if you take a look at it
prodigy's new logos this isn't that doctor and gamble thing all over again
no I also wanted to ask you about well I guess you don't know if I if they have
it but they have full internet service then you would assume they can you can
get a slip account which would enable you to use iPhone that right uh-huh
Roman you have something for us yeah actually IDT is $15 per month rate only
includes a shell account for $29.95 I believe they offer everything and I
don't know if that's the best deal you can find in New York City look around
yeah there's all kinds of there's all kinds of different services so you really
have to shop around but you know at least at least we have a company that's
that's advertising non censorship and access to everything and one one low
cost no per minute charges as something that should be expected and so that means
that you know things like AOL and CompuServe that charge by the minute
they're gonna go away you know and everyone's gonna charge one rate and
give access to everything I actually heard an IDT horror story myself oh
really yeah it was a new subscriber had had ordered IDT service and they were
using a Mac and what happened was they didn't tell the Mac user that their
graphical Mac interface software from IDT wasn't yet ready so they proceeded
to send them the Windows software and started billing them when the person got
the bill they called up IDT and they said well why'd you start billing me I
couldn't even use your service I never even logged in and you know the software
you sent me is wrong and they're like oh what do you mean we sent you software
for Windows and I'm like but I have a Mac so uh so what what eventually happened
that was the last I actually heard of it apparently the the people at IDT
didn't really understand the the difference between Windows and Mac where
are they based I'm not really sure I know you know they are actually a
long-distance carrier reseller for MCI I believe and they're based in New York
New Jersey really New Jersey and they have New York City dial-ups okay well
that's interesting so hopefully people will give us more information as they as
they use them and you know tell us what what their service is like see if we can
squeeze in one or two more good evening you're on yes hi I'm calling for the
American Telephone Consumers Council which has a bit of a problem this is
September American Telephone Consumers Council you want to tell us something
about that group what me who are who is the American Telephone the American
Telephone Consumers Council about a 35 year old organization that was very
active in the recent New York telephone rate case okay and the big point that we
want to make it's very difficult this is the month that the rate increases that
we fought for months ago finally take effect and they would affect a lot of
your customers I mean of your listeners you mean for instance in Nassau County
where we're getting people a reduction on their flat rate charge from $22 and
change excuse me to $20 and 16 cents and I believe that's also responsible
for cutting out the touchtone fee pardon me and oh yes they now that's for all
residential customers will no longer pay the 50 cents on the touchtone fee is
there still a fee for business no business will still pay a touchtone rate
they didn't get rid of that yet really they're reducing it I don't have the
thing on that because we didn't do anything on business rates okay now there
are other rate reductions that'll be coming through next year next September
for places like Great Neck and in Cedarhurst and Oyster Bay and then
there's a whole slew of rate reductions in the this is in the flat rate charge
which was where the charge was really very far out our main group was in
Buffalo where they for many years they paid the highest flat rate in the
state and the nation but it seems it would be interesting to know that the
only municipalities that were represented in the rate case and worked
on this were Buffalo the law departments of Buffalo and Erie County and Nassau
County because those people were paying the highest rate for their flat rate
service and what was it's interesting to note that if other municipalities had
been in on this they may have really done something about reducing the
residential rates but unfortunately they weren't there but the few that were
there were able to get this done and if people want to know just which
central office designations are getting the rate reduction like I'll give you a
couple of them and if they'd like they could call us okay you have about one
minute so please do that yeah well I guess that like for instance 481 in
Nassau County they get the $2.11 rate reduction and several others here it's a
whole list but if they want to know for sure our number is 212-987-5514 and they
could either call and leave a message and we'll get back to them okay thanks
very much for the info good luck in the future with with your battles thank you
all right take care and that's going to do it for us for this week and in fact
it's going to do it for us for next week too because we're not on next week but
we are in two weeks and it'll be fundraising time then so that's that's
going to be a ton of fun isn't that right fiber tons of fun yeah we look
forward to this all the time and so tune in then tune in next week of course for
the personal computer show special and stay tuned for a rebroadcast of the BAI
evening news till then Emanuel Goldstein for off the hook good night
good evening in the news tonight France's nuclear testing policy sparks
worldwide outrage white separatist Randy Weaver tells Congress his version of the
FBI raid that took the lives of his wife and child and in New York at least one
borough president gives Mayor Giuliani a failing grade as the city's children go
back to school with these and other stories I'm Jose Santiago in New York
with Verna Avery Brown in Washington and this is the news for Wednesday
September 6 1995 first to Washington for the Pacifica National News the Senate
subcommittee hearings into the 1992 Ruby Ridge siege opened today white
separatist Randy Weaver described the scene after an FBI sharpshooter fired a
bullet that killed Weaver's wife Vicki and wounded a family friend Kevin Harris
Vicki was turned around laying down on the floor with her head in a kneeling
position with the baby underneath her Kevin Kevin was sprawled out on the
kitchen floor Weaver told the senators there must be accountability for the
killings of his wife and son while senators in their opening statements
criticized the FBI they also noted Weaver held extremist