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here on WBAI. Te esperamos!
It's 10 o'clock time for off the hook here on WBAI New York.
Now I can't make a call, it couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
Bundy Libon, for the best, expect the worst. I hope that's understood. Bundy Libon!
And a good evening to everybody. This is Emanuel Goldstein. The program is Off the
Hook, where we talk about the newest in telephone technologies, the latest computer innovations
and hacker tricks, and just about anything else that might come up as we venture into
the 1990s, see things we've never seen before, and voyage to the ends of the earth. Well,
there's something that we've never seen before that has just reared its ugly head, and it's
going to affect virtually each and every one of us. Well, that is, each and every one of
us that cares enough to become involved. Talking about an ugly three-letter word called
tax. Yeah. For some reason, for some reason, and I'd sure like to know why, this has happened
to us, and nobody knows about it. As of September 1st, there has been this broad range tax imposed
on virtually all online systems in New York State. This is something that could actually
be defined as crippling. It could be something that could prevent people from getting access
to the nets. It could be something that will put some online providers out of business.
It could be something that we'll never hear the end of. What I'm going to do is read you
a bit of it, a bit of a notice from the beloved New York State Department of Taxation and
Finance, dated August 93, and we can talk a little bit about how this might affect us
and what we can do about it. Effective September 1st, 1993, that is today. Talk about short
notice. Yeah. There will be an additional state sales tax at the rate of 5% added to
the existing 4% state sales tax imposed on receipts from the services of furnishing or
providing an entertainment or information service, which is furnished, provided, or
delivered by means of telephony or telegraphy. That's a word I don't think I've ever said
before. Telegraphy, yes, or telephone or telegraph service of whatever nature. And those of you
that feel like it, see section 1105C9 of the tax law. But before you run off to your tax
books, listen to the rest of this. As an example, all right, to make it easy so that you can
understand exactly what this means, a person residing in New York State subscribes to
an entertainment service that is provided by telephony. Now, there's nothing obscene
about that word. It just means over the telephone. Telephony. The entertainment service recipient
receives the service on a monthly basis and is charged for the service directly on the
bill for telephone service. Prior to September 1st, 1993, both the telephone service and
the entertainment service were subject to an 8% sales tax, that is 4% state and 4% local.
However, any entertainment service provided after September 1st, 1993, will be subject
to a 13% sales tax, 4% local, 9% state. There is no change in the rate of tax imposed on
the telephone service, which remains at 8%. I'd like to know why not? Why not have sales
tax everywhere? For some reason, they have said to themselves, we can milk another 5%
out of these poor people. All right, let's talk about specifically what it is they're
talking about. This is where it gets interesting. Entertainment and information services provided
or delivered by means of telephony or telegraphy, that's number two for me, or a telephone or
telegraph service include all such services delivered by such means. There you have a
sentence that's a full circle. It starts and ends in exactly the same place. It is what
it is. Yeah, we'll try and translate that for you. These services are taxable and subject
to tax at the higher rate and the applicable local tax rate, whether provided through 500,
700, 800, or 900 telephone numbers. We'll get back to that in a minute, as well as those
delivered by local exchange, private telephone line, cable, or channel. It should be kept
in mind that the services subject to tax at the increased rate are distinct from telephone
or telegraph services subject to tax under Section 1105B of the tax law. All right, collecting,
compiling, or analyzing information of any kind and reporting such information to other
persons by means of telephony or telegraphy or telephone or telegraph service constitutes
the rendering of an information service subject to tax at the increased state tax rate, as
well as the applicable local sales tax, unless otherwise exempt. Basically, using the telephone
or telegraph, I don't know who uses the telegraph these days, to transfer information has suddenly
become some sort of a premium service in New York State. So if you receive information
in a particular way over the telephone or through your computer, I guess that's what
they mean by telegraphy. It's over the computer. God forbid they actually say using online
services. Then you have to pay this additional 5%. Five cents on the dollar, an additional.
Well, collecting, compiling, or analyzing information of any kind and reporting such
information to other persons by means of telephony or telegraphy, that's the key phrase. The increased
state tax rate does not apply to any receipts from the sale of information services that
are not subject to tax. Again, another full circle sentence there. These include, and
this is where it's really interesting, these include an information service which is personal
or individual in nature and is not or may not be substantially incorporated into reports
furnished to other persons by the person who collected, compiled, or analyzed the information.
Examples of such services include a personalized management report delivered orally over the
telephone or an insurance damage appraisal conveyed over the telephone. As if we'd actually
think that somebody telling you insurance information over the telephone is going to
say, hold on a second, I have to tax this sentence I'm about to say to you. That's,
they're reassuring us that no, no, that's not taxable, at least not yet. They're talking
about if you see it on a computer screen or perhaps if you dial into a computerized
telephone system and it tells you, that's taxable. Also, purchases of information services
by newspapers or radio and television broadcasters that are used in the collection and dissemination
of news are exempt from sales tax. Now here's where it starts getting rather unfair. Apparently
something run by a newspaper is not taxable. However, if you decide to run the same thing
and provide an alternative to a newspaper, it is taxable. It sounds like the classic
case of, well, different rules for printed material as opposed to electronic material.
If you log on to a computer system and a computer system that you pay something to access and
you get information from that computer system, well, all of a sudden you have to pay 13%
tax. However, if you do the same thing through a newspaper, you pay 0% tax. If you buy a
newspaper on the street, there is no tax on that. And according to this, purchases of
information services by newspapers are exempt. I don't know what that means if you buy a
newspaper and they have a service like that. There's no tax. I'm not certain about that.
Of course, you know, you have to sort of hire people to translate what these tax people
are saying here. And of course, that's taxable too, but we won't even get into that. It's
not a good day. September 1st, 1993 is not a good day for online computer services. 13%
tax rate. I mean, if you're paying $20 a month for a computer service, well, all of
a sudden that's, what, $2.60 more per month that you have to cough up. Actually, no, that's
not completely fair. That's actually an extra dollar a month, I believe, because you're
already paying a certain amount of tax. But to suddenly arbitrarily move this up 5% is
especially with no discussion. I'd like to know if anyone out there has heard anything
about this. We'll be taking phone calls in just a few minutes at 212-279-3400. Don't
call now because if you call now because of our new 5ESS switch, you'll be disconnected
after about 40 or so rings. It's not us doing that to you. It's the telephone company. In
fact, there are many ways a telephone company can disconnect you. If you're calling through
AT&T, they'll disconnect you quicker than anybody. If you're calling from New Jersey,
New Jersey Bell will disconnect you before anybody else does. And if you're calling locally,
the switch will disconnect you in the end. It's just that simple. So we'll be talking
about this and all the other funness that's taken over the computer world, how it affects
all of us, and what surprises we have to look forward to. I mean, the feds haven't even gotten
into the act yet. We're talking about state and local tax. God knows what's going to happen
when they realize that they can, you know, milk these people dry for even more money.
What effect is this going to have on the Internet? What effect is this going to have on people
logging on for the first time? You're a lot less likely to do it if you're going to be
taxed through the nose just to gain access to something. Let's hear what you have to
say.
And I don't think it's right. I think it's wrong. I think the government should step
in and conscript it, make cards out, fingerprint everybody, picture them, and then keep it
that way. Because this country is the only country that lets in all the refugees that
they possibly can get along with the good people. If the people of the United States
had better wake up before they have their whole little kitten caboodle go down the drain.
Bread is a dollar and 19 cents a loaf. And the people in this country are tired of paying
for the other people that are coming in here and working. We feel sorry. We send money.
We help them, but we don't want any more of those aliens, period.
You guys stand back. How many we shooting at this time?
Boomer 1 to Boomer 2, standing by on Q1. Two five-inch flag shells.
They're in danger from the first two.
I want.
Bombs bursting in air. The bombs bursting in air.
Vong. And the rockets' red glare.
Vong. I beg your pardon.
Vong a song?
I beg your pardon.
Vong a song?
The bombs, bombs, bombs bursting in air.
I beg your pardon.
And the rockets, and the rockets, and the rockets' red glare.
Vong a song?
Intense patriots surging across our country.
Carrying the national anthem to new and different heights.
Carrying the national anthem to new and different heights.
All the way to the top of a music charts.
Vong a song?
Call that a song?
I am an American.
Listen to my words.
Bombs, rockets, bombs.
Before you even start, I am an American.
I will escort you to the toilet to observe the counting of urine.
All he tried to do is obfuscate the confused.
I am an American.
The bombs, the bombs bursting, bursting, bursting in air.
Vong a song?
And the red glare.
Scream door.
Tail caught in a scream door.
I beg your pardon.
Are you dissatisfied with the song?
Sounds more like extreme with its scream caught in a scream door.
Well, you know it wasn't meant to be sung while sober.
Yeah?
Scream door, caught in a tail scream door.
I beg your pardon.
Yeah?
No, it actually began as a drinking song.
Oh, yeah?
Doesn't just hearing it make you wish you weren't sober?
Oh, yeah?
He might have been charmed by topping the top 40.
But was this really what he had in mind?
Drink up.
Bombs, bombs.
Bombs, the bombs.
Red glare.
Better yet, the sweet, delicious coldness of the first bite of peppermint ice cream on the 4th of July.
Oh, better yet.
Drink up.
Was this really his song?
Drink up.
Well, you wish you weren't sober?
Who is?
Yes, the tune of our national anthem was lifted from an old English drinking song.
Drink up.
Doesn't just hearing it make you wish you weren't sober?
Who is?
The people who wrote it certainly weren't.
Drink up.
Francis Scott Key wasn't either when he stole the tune.
I bet I'd have liked him.
Oh, you would have liked Anacreon even more.
Anacreon.
Anacreon.
Well, I do.
Even more.
Anacreon.
Anacreon.
Hold, shake, and yield.
No, no, no, those are the new words, remember?
Oh, so who knows the old ones?
Ready, gentlemen?
To Anacreon in hand.
I am Anacreon.
I am Anacreon.
I am Anacreon.
Now we stand by the rails and receive a hair-raising impression of how this projectile sounds as it passes by.
To be free.
The rockets burst in the air.
To be free.
To be free.
And the bombs red glare.
The separation of the first stage at Burnham.
Freedom to think.
The intermittent sounds of the guidance rockets.
Freedom to speak.
The separation of the second stage.
To pray.
To read.
To act.
To pray.
To criticize.
Freedom to eat and sleep.
I am an American.
I am an American.
Drink up.
Let it be a holiday in your house of eternity.
Every American has at least one thing to be thankful for.
A cheap shot.
Just not true.
But we still salute a flag and not a shirt.
Good night.
Yeah, that's new from Negative Land.
Sort of new from Negative Land from their free CD, which really cost $11.79.
Philanthrom.
Great for the 4th of July.
And great when you're in the kind of mood I'm in.
Yeah, it's New York State.
It wasn't the feds this time.
But it's the same spirit.
Same spirit behind it all.
5% additional tax on internet providers.
On various entertainment services.
What bothers me the most, I think, is the way they've lumped everything together.
They said, well, you know, all computerized, telephonic, telegraphic things are all the same.
And we're just going to add a flat 5% to that.
They don't have the first idea what it is they're talking about and who it's going to affect.
And what's most disturbing about this is the fact that there was no discussion.
Nobody knew about this.
I mean, the people that would be objecting about this would certainly be saying something.
They're the ones that should be the first ones to know about this.
And they didn't find out about it until August 31st, one day before it went into effect.
So we're here tonight discussing that.
How it could affect you.
How it is affecting some people already.
FiberOptic is here.
He's involved in a computer system known as Echo.
Is that right?
That's right.
Now, this kind of thing must not be greeted with wild cheers and applause down there.
No, not at all.
In fact, we just heard first word of this yesterday.
And it took us kind of by surprise when a friend of ours, a newspaper reporter at Newsday, gave us a call at Echo.
And he wanted to get a quote.
And this is the first we had heard about it.
Was that the quote?
Well, pretty much.
I don't know if he's going to print that or not.
When I first saw this, it came over on the internet.
And I thought it was a joke.
Or, you know, send greeting cards to this poor alien kid somewhere.
Modem tax being introduced.
All the little pranks or whatever that just keep happening and never seem to stop.
Yeah, that modem tax story keeps resurfacing every couple of months on the net.
So when I first heard it, I just figured it was one of those things.
And in effect, it is a modem tax.
As well as a tax on many other things.
Because people who use their modems will be paying more for using their modems.
Yeah.
It's going to cost you.
In addition to the original 8% you would pay in sales tax within the state.
The thing that really gets me is that it covers everyone.
From your sleazy 900 service provider to someone doing a public service.
Like offering internet access to people.
And the two things are a world apart.
And the fact that they both fall under the exact same type of tax.
It's kind of strange.
It goes to show how in touch the legislators are.
When they lump things like that together.
900 services and the computers and just all that stuff.
They don't really know what all that stuff is.
It's too bad they don't actually explore the internet themselves.
They realize that taxing access to that is crippling.
And it's going to simply drive a lot of people out of New York.
As far as people interested in getting access to the systems.
People providing access.
It's not going to cost your particular system more money.
But your particular system is going to have to charge more money, correct?
Yeah.
That's of course if the person wants to write it off onto the users.
It's not as if we don't have already enough bills to have to worry about.
With providing internet access.
You have to worry about $1,000 a month bills to your network service provider.
Say Sprint for instance.
And on top of that having to worry about a 13% sales tax.
On every user that accesses your system.
What's a typical charge?
A typical monthly charge for a user?
A typical monthly charge for instance Echo's charge.
Would be for internet access $19.95 a month.
And then if you want to get into hourly charges.
$1 a month over 30 hours and then up until 60 hours.
You'll never pay more than 60 hours in a month.
So what's the maximum somebody could pay?
Whatever that is.
$19 for 30 hours and then for an additional 30 hours $1 an hour.
And that's the grand total.
So the sales tax could really start adding up there.
Yeah definitely can.
And then perhaps the system providers that you get access from.
Are going to have to charge you sales tax in addition to that.
Because isn't that?
Well I think technically.
Technically I don't know how it would work out.
Because I know Sprint is headquartered in Virginia.
So I don't know if we would be exempt from paying a state tax in New York.
Because of the fact that they're based in Virginia.
Well are you accessing it through a New York telephone?
That is true.
Oh there you go then.
They'll find a way.
And they'll probably find a way to charge you Virginia state sales tax too if they can.
But it's sad.
I don't really know what to say.
Except that people should contact their legislators.
And demand to know why this was snuck in.
Nobody knew about this.
There was no discussion.
And if there had been discussion.
It certainly would have been brought up that this is not fair.
And this is something that is analogous to shooting yourself in the foot.
As far as advancing into the technological age.
If anything I think it should be allowed on like 900 type service providers.
That are constantly intruding into your home.
By splashing up these advertisements on the TV all day.
You know people having a party.
Even as we speak right now.
There's all these people having a party.
In fact you know what?
We're going to have a party tonight.
We're going to get everybody together on the phone.
And see if we can simulate that wonderful mood of a party line.
So give us a call now.
212-279-3400.
You know I don't know if you caught this before when I was reading the new tax law.
But they were talking about the telephone numbers.
And we were talking about 700, 800 or 900 telephone numbers.
But for the first time they made reference to 500 numbers.
The 500 area code apparently is going to be used for something similar.
As what AT&T has been doing with their 0700 service.
In other words a personal number that will follow you around everywhere you go.
Except I don't believe this is going to be limited to carriers.
So this is something that has not even started yet.
Nobody can dial a 500 number.
Although it's being referenced here in this tax law.
But that's something that I imagine will be happening within the next year or so.
So you heard it here first.
The 500 area code is coming.
And that along with 917 and all the other fun things that are coming our way.
The 90s are going to be an exciting time.
Okay a couple of news stories and then we'll get on to the telephones.
A really stupid thing I saw in Newsday today.
And it's not Newsday's fault.
They just were printing something from I guess the Associated Press or something.
But listen to this.
Parents should keep a close eye on young computer users.
To ensure they're not being contacted by pedophiles via electronic mail.
Justice Department officials warned everybody about this yesterday.
Robert Flores with the department's child exploitation and obscenity section.
What a fun department that must be to work for.
Said the department wants parents to be careful about what their children are reading on computer bulletin boards.
Now you know it's enough to get people all concerned with milk cartons and everything like that.
Their kids being stolen at the first possible opportunity.
Now you have to equate the computer and the telephone.
And the whole internet and email and all that kind of thing with child pornographers.
Now anything is possible.
You can talk to anybody through the mail.
You can talk to anybody on the telephone.
You can talk to anybody in electronic mail as well.
It does not make electronic mail particularly evil.
And you know kids as well as everybody else are entitled to a certain degree of privacy.
To actually encourage people to peruse mail.
And make sure you're talking to the right kinds of people.
It's not going to stop at child pornographers.
That's a fairly rare thing to see.
But you're going to have all kinds of problems with parents.
Saying well should you be talking about this particular kind of subject.
I mean you're only ten years old.
Maybe you shouldn't be talking about revolution in El Salvador or something like that.
Who knows.
Who knows what it's going to come down to.
I mean common sense usually prevails in situations like this.
I don't think we need child exploitation and obscenity section of the justice department telling us to read our kids email.
Also a former Princeton University doctoral student in physics was fined $500 after pleading guilty to illegally gaining access to the school's computer system.
The student who was a Chinese student, 23 years old, had faced a maximum sentence of six months in jail and a fine of $1,000.
But in a plea agreement he was guaranteed no prison time in exchange for the guilty plea.
He hacked his way into the network on March 30th out of intellectual curiosity.
And they say this is kind of an afterthought.
He was expelled from the university.
He hacked onto a system and was expelled from the university.
He also faced being deported to China.
That fortunately is not going to happen.
But I don't know.
To access a system out of intellectual curiosity, there's no word in here of any kind of damage or anything like that.
That's reason to throw somebody out of a university.
I think there's the same kind of mentality that passes wide-based tax of 5% onto all the computer users.
The same mentality is at work here.
You throw somebody out of school for accessing a computer without permission.
It just doesn't seem right.
All right.
We're going to take some phone calls here.
We're going to try and mix everybody together as we do sometimes.
Let's start with caller number one.
Good evening.
Who are you?
Where are you calling from?
Hi.
This is Jay Hock from the Hockers again.
How are you doing?
First front page of today's New York Times is an article about Craig Shergold.
Yeah, the kid that was sick a few years ago but isn't sick anymore.
Yeah, but more to the point, it's sort of finally getting out into mainstream U.S. media.
And it appears on the net, oh, you know, every couple of months.
And kind of silly.
So you have to speak up because our phone system really is terrible.
It was off tonight.
It appears on the net every couple of months.
And, you know, someone gets the idea that they should send postcards to this guy.
But the really interesting thing about the article in the Times today was that the influence of fax machines was discussed a lot.
Right.
And people would just get faxes and fax them off and fax them to more people and this and that.
You know what bothered me?
They didn't give the address to not send things to in that article.
But do we have it here?
No, we're not going to give it out here.
Some of the addresses, they said that things showed up in Atlanta with just, like, Make-A-Wish Foundation.
That sick kid in the hospital in Arizona, or was it Utah, something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
Another thing about the information tax, to some extent they don't talk at all about the scope.
What happens if you call up Domino's and you want to order a pizza and you ask them about the price?
They're providing information and then they come and they deliver the item.
Well, you know, potentially any call to information could also have the same effect.
You know, if you call information, they're giving you information.
They're looking at a computer screen and they're passing it on to you.
Yeah, it's quite possible that they could make that, you know, more of a 5% sales tax.
But the phone companies have enough clout so that they can prevent that from happening,
just like newspapers and magazines have enough clout.
But I don't know, you know.
There's all kinds of possibilities for this tax.
Yeah.
What was your name again?
Jayhawk from, you know, jayhawk at panics.com.
Okay.
Well, no, I didn't mean your net address.
No, wait.
Where are you from?
Do you wish to stay on and join the party?
Oh, sure.
Okay.
Let's add in another party-goer here.
Good evening.
You're on.
Who are you?
Yes.
Hi, Ed.
This is Ed.
Okay, Ed.
How are you doing?
Good.
Yes, I had a quick question.
This tax, is this going to affect my CompuServe usage?
Yes, it will because you'll be accessing CompuServe.
You're in New York, I assume.
No, I'm in New Jersey.
Oh, that's not going to affect you at all.
Oh.
But if you were in New York and you were accessing CompuServe,
you'd be accessing CompuServe in New York.
I'm fairly certain, I'm not a tax accountant here,
but I'm fairly certain that if they offer you service,
they have to charge you New York state sales tax
since they're based in New York where they're offering you service.
So if that's the case, that sales tax is going to go up another 5%.
Oh, I see.
I had one other question, not relating to this topic,
but do you have any sources of telephone equipment or forwarding devices?
Sources of call forwarding devices?
Yes.
Well, why would you not want to just use call forwarding?
Well, I just wanted to be able to change the destination phone number
from remote locations.
Okay.
The call forwarding that they offer here,
you have to be at your residence to change it, to change the destination.
Right.
I mean, I've seen things like that.
In fact, I once had one from Radio Shack, and they weren't very good.
They might have better ones now.
There are ones where you can program to do all kinds of neat things,
program conditionally.
There are ones that I believe work with caller ID as well.
Fiber, you have any idea where we can get something like that?
Well, myself and Emanuel here...
...if they think I'm wrong.
Telephony is what we're doing right now over the phone.
Telegraphy, which is the weirdest expression I've ever heard,
and this is only the third time I've said it,
is something computerized, something over the computer screen.
I think that's their archaic way of saying it.
What would come over the computer screen would come over a telephone line.
Then if they differentiate between telegraphy and telephony, how about fax?
Have they forgotten about that one?
I think fax might be one of the telegraphy breeds.
Anyhow, I'd like to join the party.
Okay, well, you're on the party now.
Say hi to your neighbors here.
Hello.
What's up?
Hello.
All right, this is great.
It's not costing us $4 a minute, is it?
Right.
Plus, we have the benefit of being beamed out throughout New York City
and New Jersey and Connecticut and Long Island and all that.
All right, let's get another person.
What constitutes a newspaper?
Good question, but I think their definition of a newspaper
is something that comes out on paper.
So, you know, you put out a flyer once a year.
You're now a newspaper.
But then you could only disseminate your information on your flyer.
Well, no, newspapers do disseminate information electronically as well.
Right, Newsday does that.
Newsday has a bulletin board.
That's correct, and I believe from my interpretation of this,
and I could be wrong because I don't really read taxis all that well,
I believe that they would not be subject to the same taxes.
Ah, because they're a newspaper, even though they run a bulletin board
and have some of their news on their bulletin board.
Yeah, that's something I'd like to have clarified.
Incidentally, you can call up their bulletin board
and see what is going around the zipper on Times Square.
Well, that saves you a trip into the city, doesn't it?
And if you knew the dial-up number for their modem on Times Square,
you could put up your own headlines.
Well, that does sound tempting.
Good evening.
Yeah.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, this is starting to get me upset, this tax thing.
You know, I use basically the services to the modem wherever I can get
because as a blind person, it is difficult to get access to print media.
And the computer has just solved that.
Now, what you're telling me now is that even something like my computerized bank account
is now going to go up in charges because of that?
Or are banks, like newspapers, also exempt?
That's a good question.
When you access your bank through either a touch-tone telephone or over a computer,
is that information that will now be considered taxable?
Does your bank charge you for this information?
Of course.
Okay, then they charge you sales tax for providing this information.
They charge a fee, which they never bothered to break down
in terms of tax versus their cost or anything like that.
But I would imagine that unless banks are exempt,
that means anybody that has a computerized bank account,
I mean, do ATMs now have to charge extra money?
That's telegraphy, I guess.
Well, I don't know about that.
Well, I mean, a lot of banks don't charge ATM fees.
Some do, some don't.
But I don't know if such fees are taxable.
I don't know if those are taxable myself.
I wish we had a tax attorney here that could answer these questions.
But the whole thing is very confused right now, I can tell you that.
By the way, what's your name?
Yeah, my name is Julio.
Julio, okay.
And I'm here in Brooklyn.
You know, it just seems that it's like they're turning up the fire
on the whole idea of electronic communication.
Yeah, well, they're afraid of it, they don't understand it,
and they see it as, you know, if they're not going to understand it,
at least maybe they'll make some money off of it,
at our expense, of course.
I think that this might be one of the exemptions
provided for an information not normally available to the public
but a report provided for a single individual,
like insurance.
Ah, yes.
Yeah, that might be.
But, you know, I mean, that means Dialog, CompuServe,
all of those other services are now going to be going up.
Time, 976-1616, or whatever.
Yeah, $0.36 a call.
That should go up too.
Yeah, you're right.
Is this really a law or is it a policy?
I mean, if it's a law,
wouldn't it have been passed like a year ago or something?
This is something directly from
the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance.
Now, I believe they can't change sales tax
unless it's signed into law by somebody.
So that would mean that, you know,
it happened and it slipped by everybody.
Yeah, that's exactly what happened,
and that's what I'm upset about.
I want to know who signed this into law,
and I think we should call upon those people
to answer for their action here
and possibly start a repeal movement
because these kind of things happen.
You can do this.
But the thing is, we have to be angry enough
to, you know, go out there and do it.
Has anyone noticed anything?
Yeah, and I think, you know,
putting these up all over the board
ought to be a quick way to get the information across.
Yeah, in fact, Invention Factory,
on their sign-on message,
they have a big message about this,
and someone in one of the conferences
provided the full text in ASCII format.
On which system?
General.
That's on Invention Factory.
Uh-huh.
I imagine this is being passed all over New York
and probably throughout the country as well.
Will pirate bulletin boards be charging taxes?
Well, do they charge money?
If they charge money, they have to, yes.
But if they don't charge money, they don't have to.
See, the thing is, if you charge to be on a system,
you always had to pay some sort of a tax,
but it was equal to sales tax,
which everybody pays when they provide some sort of a service.
But this is sort of like a surcharge,
a 5-cent-on-the-dollar surcharge,
which doesn't sound like much when you say it like that,
but, you know, $5 per 100, okay?
Maybe that will hit people a little harder.
It's substantial.
It is substantial.
It's enough to raise your costs so much
that possibly people might not want to get involved.
Already, CompuServe, a couple of years ago,
started charging like a $2-a-month membership charge.
Well, that comes to $24 a year.
Now there's this extra charge.
Maybe the next law will be
that if you access a pirate bulletin board,
you have to pay a tax based on the value of the pirated software.
Well, the other thing is the whole notion of tax collection.
I mean, in other words, now, I guess,
if you charge a nominal fee, a membership fee for a board,
does that mean now you have to file tax papers for your board?
You're going to write on your W-2 form that you run a pirate board?
One option for you, if you're going to be running a board,
if you're totally non-profit,
is that you create some sort of non-profit entity
and you get tax exemption,
and then presumably you're okay.
Yeah, unfortunately, creating a non-profit entity
in a way that holds water costs money.
Yeah.
So that knocks out anyone who just wants to put up, you know...
I mean, that makes it now you've got to go talk
to a corporation-type lawyer
or somebody who can draw up these papers
or take the chance to do it yourself,
and having tried doing non-profit papers,
it takes a long time.
Okay.
We want to add one more person in on this party,
so we'll have a complete set here.
Right now, if I'm not mistaken,
we have Jayhawk, Ed, Ruben, Jeff, Ray, and Julio.
Correct.
Okay.
We're going to add one more person in,
and then we'll be complete.
Good evening.
Who's this?
Jim from Westchester.
Jim from Westchester.
How are you doing?
All right.
I run a non-profit Bolton board up in Westchester,
and I was wondering if someone sends me a donation,
which I don't request,
so I have to pay tax on this now.
That's a gift.
Yeah, and you're a non-profit, you said?
Oh, yeah.
Are you a registered non-profit organization?
Of course not.
Okay.
Well, that's going to be a little more difficult then.
Yeah, I've taken in maybe $100 in the last 3 years,
and I've spent well over $100 on a phone bill.
Yeah, I think that's small enough
not to have to worry about that kind of a thing,
but I think this is based on fees.
You would have to charge something
to be required to pay taxes.
This is crazy.
I mean, you just heard about this just today on your show here.
Yeah, I imagine a lot of people are hearing about it
for the first time here.
I mean, I haven't seen it in newspapers at all.
I haven't seen it, you know, on TV.
I mean, this is a major thing.
It really is a major thing,
but unfortunately too many of us are out of tune
with the shape of technology today.
We don't see it as a major thing.
So what if the information provider
is using an 800 number?
That's another one.
Yeah.
Well, if the 800 number is within New York State,
then, I mean, it's not the phone call you're being taxed on.
It's the information.
So if you have any kind of a relationship
with the information provider,
it has to come in the form of a bill,
and one of the other things it says here
is that it has to be itemized in such a way
that people know what tax is where.
In other words, 9% state tax, 4% local tax.
That has to be printed out.
So it doesn't matter if it's an 800 number
or a regular number.
That's not what's being taxed.
Does anyone have the number for the Invention Factory?
I'd like to get a copy of this.
I'm just asking for one, but anyway.
It's area code 212.
Okay.
431-8110 is 212-431-8110.
8-1-1-0.
It's all over the Internet.
It's on NY General, among other places.
I don't have too good of access to the Internet, so thanks.
They should add that to their commercial.
Have you ever been taxed when you dialed up a service?
You will.
What about New York Telephone?
I mean, presumably they would be exempt
in their New York Telephone.
Yeah, it says in here that regular phone calls
are not going to be taxed anymore
because you could certainly add this definition
to a normal phone call,
information being passed along, that kind of thing.
But they've chosen not to add phone companies to this.
Incidentally, I looked up telegraphy,
and it's not very helpful.
It's just the usage of telegraph equipment.
Okay.
Well, what is telegraph equipment, then, these days?
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, the dictionary isn't too helpful.
Equipment used in telegraphic communications.
Look in the yellow pages.
See if there's any companies that sell
telegraphic equipment out there,
and we'll find out what it is they're selling.
What about TDDs?
Well, yeah, that's one thing which is still in use.
They're just like telephones, so...
Uh-huh.
Although, to be honest,
I can't imagine why they still go so slowly.
Why haven't they upgraded those systems
so that the deaf can communicate
just as quickly as if they were on the Internet?
I don't see why it has to be at, whatever,
110 baud or something crazy like that.
And why can't they use ASCII terminals?
Right, exactly.
Tie them into the rest of the world.
For the slowness they have now.
I mean, they'd probably, you know,
have to pay $2,000 or something to 2400.
I doubt that.
I think it would probably be cheaper
to have something that's faster
rather than to produce this massive equipment
that goes really slow.
At least they don't have line quality problems
with New York Telephone.
Uh-huh.
I have a correction on the number
I just gave to Invention Factory.
I mixed up the number of their old central office
with the last four digits of their new number.
The correct number is 2748110.
All right, so that explains why
we've been getting phone calls
saying we're waking people up.
Yeah, 2748110 with their old central office
before they moved to fiber optic
was 431 Exchange.
They're in the World Trade Center,
or is that not them?
Yeah, they're right by the World Trade Center.
The Bolton Board has fiber optics
for 300 lines, and they're using 46.
I understand New York Telephone
has hauled in about, like,
something like $10,000 worth of equipment
that they're just sitting in there
according to some strings they pulled.
They're wired for thousands and thousands
of lines into the building,
but $300 up to the Bolton Board.
Right.
Another neat thing I've seen on New York Tele
not to do with this tax is this caller ID.
I finally got it in my area,
and two exchanges were showing up
as being private no matter who was calling
instead of being out of area.
Well, now, which area are you in?
If you buy the service,
you don't have to answer private calls.
Maybe blocking out your friends
who happen to live in an area
that shows up that way.
Okay, which area are you in?
Westchester.
The exchange was a 914 area code.
It was a 238 prefix,
and there was one in Yonkers.
I can't remember offhand what it was.
It was 96 something.
Now, you see, the proper way to handle this
is that if you have not yet been offered the service
but you are on the network,
the default setting should be private
so that when you make a phone call,
your number doesn't show up on people's bills.
However, what has been happening in recent months
is that people in the 914 area code,
their number has been shouted out
across the whole network without them knowing it.
Well, no, they've warned me about it.
What I'm saying is that on my exchanges,
I have caller ID since July.
Okay, and this one exchange in Yonkers
and this one exchange in Chappaqua,
they don't have caller ID available to them,
but their number had started showing up
a couple weeks ago on my box,
the 238 number,
and then a couple days after it started showing up,
everyone from that exchange was coming up as blocked,
and these people aren't blocked,
and they're calling up the telephone company,
excuse me, but I don't want my number blocked,
and they're like, well, if you don't have the service,
it's going to show up as blocked, which is not true.
There's also a report of something
that has just started happening.
One of our listeners called in to tell us this.
Supposedly, people in New Jersey
now have their numbers being transmitted
into New York on a limited basis.
If you use the 10NJB function,
your number will be transmitted into New York.
If you dial 10NJB followed by the number in New York
you're trying to reach from New Jersey,
your phone number will be transmitted.
Now, this is interesting because
they don't have all-call block in New Jersey.
They can't turn it off.
In New York, we can turn it off.
Now, I'm not quite sure what's going to happen
when people in New York start calling people from New Jersey
and our numbers are showing up.
Will we be able to still block,
even though New Jersey doesn't believe in blocking?
Will we provide for blocking in New York,
even though New Jersey won't allow it on the sending end?
It's going to be a mess.
When it gets down to our switched units
and then never make it that far out, I would think.
I would hope.
Supposedly, I don't know if I heard it on this show or elsewhere,
that AT&T or some long-distance carrier,
I think it was AT&T,
is making a lot of deals with a lot of local telephone companies.
They want to make this call ID nationwide.
Well, it wouldn't surprise me
since the codes are pretty uniform.
It's, you know, star six, seven to block,
all that kind of thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if we had a uniform set up within five years.
It's just so upset when I call up and I tell them,
you know, my friend's calling me and his number's not blocked
and it shows up as blocked
and I don't answer phone calls that are blocked.
You know, how is he supposed to call me, you know?
The answer was, well, he doesn't have the service
so it shows up as blocked.
That's not true because two days before,
it showed up with his phone number,
and a week before that, it showed up out of area.
Out of area is out of state.
That's not true.
I don't know what they're talking about.
It really annoys me.
Well, there's a lot of ways to trick the system
and make it seem like your place is your not.
Manuel?
Yes.
Yeah, I saw in the nuts and bolts,
I think you just answered the question, though.
Someone was selling something to block your number
for caller ID boxes,
and I didn't understand why they would sell something like that
since you could just block it by pressing the code on your phone,
but you just told me that some states, I guess,
don't allow blocking.
Right.
I'd be curious what kind of a device they're selling, though.
It's a piece of hardware that will block your number?
Yeah, if you like, I'll pull it out and tell you it right now.
Okay.
Let's hear it.
Mind it.
While he's pulling it out,
I have a question regarding the 10NJB and the other way around.
Okay.
There is another way around.
Yeah, well, someone told me that it's a lot cheaper
to use it from New Jersey to New York
than from New York back to New Jersey.
Do you know if that's true?
Well, I do know that long-distance calls
are cheaper than short-distance calls in many places,
including New York and California,
so that would not be inconceivable
that it would be cheaper to use AT&T for that particular call.
I do know that using 10NJB,
I don't know the exact rate, but it is cheaper.
You're not using AT&T to get from New Jersey to New York.
What exactly are you using?
You're using regular New Jersey bell line.
From Manhattan?
Into New York telephone.
Something or other.
I think it's 10NYT.
Yeah, that's 10698.
And they never publicize it, but...
Right.
There's also one for southern New Jersey,
10BPA, Bell of Pennsylvania,
that allows you to get into Philadelphia
and places like that.
Is that from New York or from Pennsylvania?
This is, I believe, from New Jersey to Pennsylvania.
I believe.
It might be from Pennsylvania to New Jersey,
come to think of it, though.
I've never had opportunity to use it.
But it's a way of saving a little bit.
You know, it's supposed to be cheaper.
It's supposed to be cheaper to use the local company
than the long-distance company,
but telephone rates are so completely confusing to everybody
that it's possible to be paying more
for something that's a shorter distance.
What does AT&T typically charge?
Typically, they charge about 24 cents a minute daytime rates
and about 13 cents a minute nighttime rates,
and that's to anywhere.
Oh, Emmanuel, since we're running low on time,
we should remind everyone that Friday is the 2600 meeting?
That's right.
Friday is the 2600 meeting.
City Corps Center, first forward by the pay phones
from 5 to 8 p.m. this Friday.
Emmanuel?
Yeah?
Yeah, the ad says block caller ID with stealth one.
Did you know your phone number, unlisted or not,
will be displayed on the caller ID unit?
Reclaim your privacy.
Protect all extensions.
$39.95 plus shipping.
As low as $29.95 in quantity.
The name of the company is Innovative Electronics,
and their phone number is 313-486-6625,
and their fax number is 313-486-4892.
So maybe we could use their box for something else in the New York area.
Well, you know, I'd like to know what it is they're doing.
Hopefully it's not just appending star 6, 7 to your number.
I'd like to see what it is they're actually, before I judge it,
I'd like to see what it is that they're actually doing to the data stream.
Listen, we're out of time, so I'd like all you people to say goodbye to each other.
Just before we say goodbye,
could you tell me how come we could have so many people on the line
and have the degree of clarity that we did have?
Well, it's rare for me to say something good about the BAI phone system,
but I suppose it's good for that kind of a thing.
The one-on-one phone calls aren't that great,
but the seven-on-one are much better.
They're going to tax you for this.
Imagine if they could.
$4 a minute times seven.
That's $28 a minute there, times how many minutes we were on.
Look at all the information that was passed on.
A lot of information was passed.
A lot of people that aren't on the phone have been jotting down information,
and I don't think we should be giving them ideas.
Let's just say goodnight and swear to be back next week.
This is Ray signing off.
This is Ruben from the Bronx saying goodnight.
This is Jeff, goodnight.
Okay, there they all go.
Okay, I'll say goodnight. I was first. I'll be last. Goodnight.
All right, everybody's gone.
Thanks for joining our party.
And that's going to conclude the party line,
formerly known as Off the Hook, on this particular night.
We'll be back again next Wednesday from 10 to 11.
Stay tuned next for the WBAI Evening News here on WBAI New York.
This is Emanuel Goldstein for FiberOptic, and everybody else, goodnight.
Music, please.
Bam, who's next?
All right, let's get on it.
Peter Beauchene, all mixed up.
That's right, it's 9.30, straight up.
This is Chico Alvarez, time to get funky.
Morning, everybody. How you doing? I'm back.
My name is Delphine Blue.
Friday.
You're listening to Accident Percussion with yours truly, Montego Joe.
Morning Music, Monday through Friday from 9.30 till noon,
here on non-commercial, listener-supported WBAI.
There is no competition.
Music
Good evening. In the news tonight,
the Clinton administration unveils its new plans for the Pentagon,
historic Arab-Israeli peace talks continue in Washington,
and school books are under full-scale assault by the right wing.
And in New York, the asbestos fiasco might delay the start of the school year
for some one million New York City school children.
With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York
with Verna Avery-Brown in Washington,
and this is the news for Wednesday, September 1st, 1993.
First to these headlines, topping the news.
Bosnian peace talks collapsed in Geneva today
after being on the verge of an agreement to carve Bosnia into three ethnic republics.
Croatian President Franjo Tudjman blamed the Bosnian Muslim government
for making demands the other warring factions could not accept.
Bosnian Muslims are pushing for access to Adriatic seaports,
which would give them 4% more land than the 30% of Bosnia offered under the proposed deal.
Tudjman said that all parties in the talks are leaving Geneva
and that the war in Bosnia will continue,
but the Bosnian Muslim president said he will stick to a ceasefire agreement
reached yesterday with the Bosnian Serbs.
After months of political infighting, Russian President Boris Yeltsin
has launched an attack against his adversaries, firing his former running mate.
Yeltsin's opponents have called the firing of Alexander Rutskoi unconstitutional
and are vowing to overturn it by the end of the week.
Jennifer Glass reports from Moscow.
On the first day of a month that he promised would bring political excitement here to Moscow,
Russian President Boris Yeltsin fired the vice president who opposes him
and one of his own closest aides.
Yeltsin said that allegations of corruption made by each man
were destroying the government.
The move seems a clear-cut attack on Vice President Alexander Rutskoi
who has said he would like to be president.
Both Rutskoi and the head of the parliament, Yeltsin's opponents,
say firing the vice president, an elected official,
is illegal under the Soviet-era constitution
and the parliament will repeal the decree when it meets Friday.
According to Yeltsin's spokesman, the dismissal is legal because it's temporary,
pending the outcome of a corruption investigation.
The firing appears to be the first step towards ending the political struggle
that has paralyzed Moscow for months.
Yeltsin hopes to replace the current parliament that mostly opposes him
by forcing new elections this fall.
Jennifer Glass, Pacifica News, Moscow.
The case against two white Florida men
accused of setting an African-American tourist on fire began to fall apart today.
Alan Lipke reports from the courthouse in West Palm Beach, Florida.
The prosecution's case has depended from the first
on the testimony of a teenage co-conspirator who's changed his confession repeatedly.
And the case has gotten shakier since the lead prosecutor
walked out in a dispute with his boss Monday.
State attorney Harry Lee Cote disqualified one of his own witnesses yesterday
by meeting with him in front of other witnesses before he'd completed his testimony.
This morning, he paused in the middle of examining another witness
for three minutes by the clock to review his notes.
And this afternoon, several agents testified that fingerprints,
hair samples, and DNA tests showed the men who abducted
New York tourist Christopher Wilson were white
but could not place either of the two defendants at the scene.
The victim, who is black, is expected to testify tomorrow.
For Pacifica News, this is Alan Lipke in West Palm Beach.
The Brazilian government is setting up a special unit to investigate death squads.
Today's announcement comes a few days after hooded gunmen
massacred 21 residents of a Rio de Janeiro shantytown.
A spokesperson for the federal police said the investigation will focus
on the military and civil police forces, whom many believe
are responsible for the attacks on Afro-Brazilian slum residents.
The governor of Rio said some 200 Rio police officers
are currently under arrest and charged with being members of death squads.
The Clinton administration today sharply cut its estimate
of economic growth for this year and next,
reflecting the economy's disappointing performance so far in 1993.
In its mid-session review of the budget, the administration said
the economy looks slightly weaker than it did in February,
when President Clinton first introduced his budget and economic package.
And those are the stories topping the news.
The Clinton administration unveiled a sweeping new post-Cold War defense plan.
It's called a bottom-up military review,
and it slashes construction of warplanes and ships,
as well as reduces the number of troops.
But critics say the plan does not go far enough.
Pacifica's Don Rush has this report.
Since the end of the Cold War, the Pentagon has been searching
for a new mission, and it seems to have found it.
The Pentagon's blueprint for the future envisions what is called
a lean high-tech force, ready to protect Americans
against the real dangers of the world.
The lean part of the plan includes the following,
reducing the number of Army divisions from 14 to 10 by 1999,
cutting the number of aircraft carriers for the Navy down to 12,
and slashing the number of Air Force wings from 28 to 20.
On the new dangerous side of the equation are regional conflicts,
like the Persian Gulf War against Iraq.
In that vein, the plan would keep up the troop strength of the Marines,
who can be delivered to the site of any conflict quickly.
In addition, emphasis would be placed on developing anti-missile defense systems
for such weapons as the Scud missile of Persian Gulf War fame.
And the new plan would allow the U.S. to fight two such regional conflicts
almost simultaneously.
General Colin Powell, chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
We are now talking about regional conflicts that may break out in one day's time,
or it might be something that sort of develops over a period of time,
and it might take years in terms of this thing coming to a point
where United States Armed Forces might have to get involved.
It requires forces that are able to go instantly,
and the ability to develop larger forces for a different kind of conflict
that we see coming over a period of time.
But the plan was criticized by both the right and the left.
Conservatives said the plan cuts too much.
Eugene Red McDaniel, president of the American Defense Institute,
believes the cutbacks ignore the threat from the republics of the former Soviet Union.
We're going too far too fast.
I think there's still, even though the Cold War has ended,
I still think that military hardware is still amassed in the Soviet Union
and is still a threat.
On the left, critics charge that Secretary Les Aspin and the Pentagon
are looking for new threats to spend money on.
Carl Canetta with the project on defense alternatives of the Commonwealth Institute.
It looks like what the Aspin plan is,
is to orient modernization towards what is technically feasible,
and what that means is that we end up in an arms race with our own imaginations.
During his briefing, General Powell said the Pentagon envisioned threats in two areas.
One is the Persian Gulf next to the Indian Ocean.
The second is Northeast Asia and the Korean Peninsula.
But Canetta says even if conflicts developed in those two regions simultaneously,
the U.S. would still not need the forces Powell says it does.
By putting war stocks on those peninsulas,
a lot of the requirements for strategic lift, lots of that disappears.
When you get specific and you look at the strength of the South Korean armed forces,
you realize that in fact the type of package that Aspin is talking about
sending into these conflicts would not be required in a Korean scenario.
One of the more striking characteristics of today's briefing
was the absence of any real discussion of multilateral military actions.
Two major operations mentioned theoretically appear to be based on the U.S.
taking the leading, if not sole, role in such conflicts.
Greg Bishak with the National Commission for Economic Conversion.
The serious flaw in the plan is that it assumes that no one else in the world
is willing or able to share the burden of providing military assets
to international peacekeeping operations.
That's the serious flaw with the bottom-up plan.
Another rationale emerged at the Pentagon briefing today for keeping the military intact,
and it was two-fold.
Under the plan, the Pentagon would build a third...