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And we'll be taking phone calls too
From folks just like you
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We're with you until 10 o'clock tonight
Okay, the paragraph comes from
This particular law, we'll get into the exact specifics
As to the name of it and all that
Sale, selling or purchase
Any transfer of title or possession or both
Exchange or barter
Rental, lease or license to use or consume
Including with respect to computer software
Merely the right to reproduce
Conditional or otherwise
In any manner or by any means whatsoever
For consideration or any agreement therefore
Including the rendering of any service
Taxable under this article
For consideration or any agreement therefore
Okay, if you're still awake after that
Basically, what this is an introduction to
Is a whole lot of words like that
That are saying that from here on in
New York State is going to be taxing
Software transfers on such places as bulletin boards
And actually this kind of a thing
Has outraged system operators
Of computer bulletin boards everywhere
Because they are now supposedly
Going to be held liable
Every time somebody downloads a piece of software
On their computer system
People are going nuts over this
Now don't fret if you don't understand
What computer bulletin boards are
Or how the whole thing works
Because we're going to attempt in the next hour
To drive the point home
Of how this will affect you
Whether you run a computer bulletin board system
Or use one
Or don't even use computers at all in your life
We have with us Charles Rouse
And Jack Brooks
Of the Dorsey Diplomatic Mission
Which is a computer bulletin board system
Here in New York City
And good evening to you both
Good evening
And your microphones do work, that's nice to know
When did you first become aware of this law?
First of all, what name does this law officially go by?
Name, number?
The name of the law is
Senate Bill Number 6079
Or Assembly Number 8491
It is an addendum to a bill
For other purposes
It may be to clean up the environment
But this is a rider to that bill
It's tacked on to that bill
It's tacked on to that bill
If you're going to pass the good part of the law
You have to accept the bad part of the law
Who wrote it?
We don't know
We are trying to ascertain that
Because I personally, as a private citizen
Intend to publicize this man
What he has done to the personal computer hobbyist industry
And how he is killing it
And hopefully we can kill his political career
Well that certainly would make people feel better
What are the chances of repealing a law like this?
Quickly
Once the law is in effect
There is virtually no chance of repealing it
Period
The only thing we can hope for
Is to get a law passed to amend the law
To in effect nullify it
To in effect nullify it
Okay, now
You folks run a computable system
Why don't you tell us something about that first
Then we'll get into the specifics
Okay
What we run is a public information service
The corporation that runs the bulletin board
The Dorset Embassy Incorporate
Is a not-for-profit corporation
Under the state of New York
We are a community service group
Running the bulletin board
Is just one of half a dozen things we do
It's just that the bulletin board
Is the most visible thing that we do
Our system is basically a free access system
You can call in
We will call you back
Verify you
At that point you can post messages
Read PhytoNet news
Which is another news network
You can gain access to Usenet
The internet
Which is a collection of corporate
And educational computer systems
PhytoNet has many many thousands of nodes
Many many hundreds of thousands of users
Usenet is the Sagan network
Billions upon billions upon billions of users
Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of sites
Sites like The Well
Sites like IBM Rochester, Minnesota
Sites like Columbia
It is the grandfather of all internet
Of all the news networks, mail networks
That are commonly in use
It's like a huge college campus
I like to think it is
Basically it's
For those people who are familiar with Unix
And familiar with the term X Windows
Usenet was where the entire X project
Was first conceptualized
Where a lot of the development work happened
And it was finalized at MIT
Now something like this
A law like this
An ill-conceived law
That does not understand
The computer community
As you've described it
Could completely destroy that community
Could it not?
Yes
Absolutely
What are you folks doing about it?
I understand you want to be a
Kind of a test case
Is that a fair term?
Well if we wind up a test case
A lot of local bulletin boards
Are taking their download sections down
What they don't realize is
That's not going to save them
Why not?
Very simply
If they have a text file
If they have a message
On their system
That can be construed to have real value
The mere fact of somebody dialing in
And reading that message
Is the transfer of that information
The definition given here of software
Does not define software
And it could be assumed
That that is information
Information has value
Therefore it has a taxable value
So to just get this completely straight
What they are saying is
That every time somebody calls up your system
And downloads a piece of software
Or perhaps even a text file
Despite the fact that they are not
Paying anything for this
They are responsible for paying tax
On a value that is determined by who?
The state finance department
And they are not responsible for paying it
We are responsible for collecting it
So you are supposed to collect
Sales tax
On something that is downloaded
Over the computer
We are supposed to collect
A specified amount of sales tax
On an unspecified value
From an unspecified person
Our system is free
It is going to be free
It is going to be free
Up until the point they carry us and our systems away
Now how would that work with an anonymous user?
That is one of the beauties of computer communication
You can still be anonymous if you want to be
If the man downloads
$100,000 in software
We are
Responsible for
$8,250 worth of taxes
Isn't this just as crazy as
Say somebody saying
You have to pay a tax if you Xerox something?
Yes
Has anybody ever tried to tax Xerox
Copies of documents?
Well this law might apply there too
Exactly because it does say
Any transfer
Any means
So it could be any form
Not just electronic
You could Xerox a computer program
And the Xerox could be taxable
Then of course the question is
Who are we talking about collecting the tax?
Xerox system operator
Exactly
Here we are talking about
The BBS operator
Being responsible for collecting the tax
The fair market value of that tax
A shareware program
Where the author has said
Hey I am putting this in
And what I want is $20
And he has made a clone of
123
Lotus 123 for example
Which sells for about $300
What we are really talking about
If he says I am going to sell this for $75
Send the money to me
The bulletin board operator
Who is passing this shareware around
Is responsible for collecting
The fair market value
Not the value that the author has said
On the software
Public domain software
Also is included in this
And it is the fair market value
Of the public domain software
Which is free
But yet we have to determine
The fair market value of it
And then collect the fair market value
On that value
You will be swamped
Just trying to figure all this out
In itself
Absolutely
Let alone paying something like this
The bottom line is
We have somewhat of a
Public policy statement
In relationship to our operations
It states very simply
This is an official statement of policy
In relationship to the
Dorset Embassy Inc.
A New York State not-for-profit
Community service group
And its operation of the
Dorset Diplomatic Mission
Bulletin Board System
All costs of operation are borne
By the Dorset Embassy Incorporated
In total
The Dorset Diplomatic Mission
Bulletin Board is a totally free
Public access hobbyist system
There are no upload-download ratios
Connect time charges
Or post-per-call requirements
There are no exchange requirements
Or remuneration requirements
For public access whatsoever
So it's pretty much the epitome
Of freedom of speech
What your board does
Let us step into this
We say very specifically
There are no upload-download ratios
Connect time charges
Or post-per-call requirements
These are forms of remuneration
That a SISOP may receive
For the ability to download
If a SISOP board
Has any of these policies
In effect
He is in effect being paid
For the software
That is being downloaded
And he is then liable
For the taxes
This is under a determination
Given by the New York State
Finance Department
It is a compromise
They are offering
Quite frankly
I think we all ought to get up
And take their compromise
And next time we go to the bathroom
Use it well and mail it back to them
Because this is a compromise
This is not a law
We have their good word
That they're not going to
Enforce this law
Not this year
Next year
The year after
Do you think there is a real desire
To get a law like this passed?
The real desire is for dollars
New York State is hurting financially
And they will take
If they could get an extra dollar
By taking the milk out of a baby's mouth
They will do it
In destroying a system like Dorsai
Some of our projects that we have going on
Where we're taking
Corporations are giving us computers
To take and refurbish
And give to not-for-profit groups
To refurbish and give to
Physically handicapped
Where we are taking
Young people
Who are borderline
They may succeed in life
They may fail in life
In saying
You will come with me if you wish
And you will learn computers
I had a young gentleman who
Last week
Last two weeks
He's bombed out twice
In two very, very major areas of his life
He's been working with us for two years
He marched out
And secured a job
For $35,000 a year
As a senior technician
And I'm very, very proud of him
That's a product of what we do
The type of law they're talking about
We would no longer be able to reach these people
They would no longer be able to reach us
And any of the information we pass to them
We would have to pay the tax on
It's not something that we can physically do
It is our legal attache's opinion
And it is our opinion that because
We are a not-for-profit organization
And because we do not receive a remuneration
For the operation of the board
We are not in any way affected by this law
This law could destroy the community
The BBS community
And anything that hurts the computer
The hobbyist community
Anything that diminishes that
Diminishes me
Diminishes Jack
Diminishes us all
Absolutely
You said that the reason this is happening
Is because New York State is hurting financially
Do you think there might be more to it than that?
Because destroying computer bulletin boards
Is high on the list of some people
I know that
Bulletin boards can be a real pain
For those people that are annoyed by
Too much freedom of speech
Okay, if one reads the Constitution
The United States of America
We have the right to keep and bear arms
We have the right as the people
Of the United States of America
That should the government
Become what we do not wish
To pick up those arms
And overthrow the government
The state of New York has already taken
The right to keep and bear arms away from us
Now what they're doing
Is they're taking the rights to free speech
Freedom of the press
And freedom of assembly
In the method of our choice
Away from us
They are taking away the ability
Of two not so literate people
To reach out and touch
15,000 people
In the course of a month
And say
Dear Dorsi user
Did you know
They are taking away the capability
For us to communicate
United we stand
Divided we fall
Period, simple
Do you think there's some kind of an agenda
At work though, specifically
To do this kind of a thing
Either here or in other parts of the country
While I have been known
As an ultimately paranoid
And ultimately very
Individualistic person
I don't believe that there is
A grand plan
I do feel like that
While bulletin boards have been known
To be a pain in the side
Of let us say
The big N word
New York telephone
9X you can say
Simple that way
Yes
And AT&T
All the baby bells
Yes, baby and mama bell
The bottom line is
We have been a thorn in their side
But do they have the lobbying capability
Do they have enough
Money
To spread around
And inflict something like this
Is it that important
To them
They are businessmen
If we were
If the BBS community
Was costing them millions upon millions
Of dollars a month
Instead of putting millions upon millions
Of dollars a month into their pockets
I could see that
AT&T, 9X
All the bells together
Would cause us a problem
No, I think this is
A, a poorly written law
Because this
Same law
If impressed in all of its many facets
Would shut down such businesses
As Chemical Bank
Manny Hanny
Anybody that uses
Any type of electronic transfer
Anybody who transfers
Documents, papers
Backwards and forth
Because those are information
Are you saying they could put a tax
On every time you take money out of the bank
The bank would have to pay a tax on that
No, what the bottom line is
You bank at Citibank
And you move from
115th Street
And you go down to
14th Street
At branch 3002
Citibank has a
Central data processing site
That will take
The value of your account
Debit branch 101
And credit branch XYZ
Wherever you move to
This is a
Information transaction
For which
The data processing site
Is paid money to process
Under the
Under the implications of this law
The real value of that transfer
I.e. your available balance
Becomes
A taxable transaction
And Citibank should pay the
Taxes
On the
Value of your transfer
You know what you have for $1000
In your bank
They owe the state of New York
$82.50
And quite frankly
If they want to tax the door aside
Fine, taxes
Make us responsible
For collecting that taxes
We'll deal with it
I want Citibank, Manny Haney
The city of New York
Anybody who transfers information
In any medium
And any medium
Gee, we're talking
Does this have a value
And who's responsible for the taxes
And who's going to collect them
And who do we pay them to
And what's the value of this discussion
Well I hope they're not expecting me to collect taxes for this radio show
But we'll see what happens
Let me give out the phone number at this point
We'll be taking phone calls in about 5 minutes
212-279-3400
We're talking to Charles Rawls
And Jack Brooks
From the New York City Bulletin Board
For a diplomatic mission
A bulletin board system here in New York
We're talking about a brand new New York state law
That's taken effect
That mandates that a tax be paid
On software downloads
And potentially all kinds of things
Has there been a very strong reaction against this
From home?
Outside of your particular system
Yes
It's very well and much through the New York City
Bulletin Board community
It is completely across the internet
New York BBS is the group that first picked this up
This, from what I understand, came into effect
Midnight Friday night
By 9 o'clock Saturday morning
We had the text files available for download
On our board
And we had the determination available
On our board
And we had bulletins up
So it's a very very quick move
And it's a very quick move
And it's a very quick move
And it's a very quick move
So it's a very very quick moving situation
The problem is this is already law
The only reason a lot of bulletin boards
Are still in operation
And the New York State Tax Department
Is not hauling people off to debtor's prison
Is the fact there is a federal restraining order
On the law
How long that will last
No one knows
So there's been a very very
Strong reaction
There have also been people
Who've said
Well I called the Department of Finance
In Albany
And they told me that this doesn't apply
Well if it doesn't apply
Write it on paper
Make it a law
And then it applies
Anything else is a lie
You can't count on the word of a clerk
Over a telephone
Everything else is a lie
I'm sorry
Until it's law
We'll make this compromise
If you want to make a compromise
Great guys
Write it down, make it a law
And we'll talk
Is there any other kind of a law like this
Anywhere else in the country
No, this is pretty much a landmark piece of legislation
And for it to be written as a landmark
Is very poorly written
Is there a law like this anywhere else in the world
No
Well maybe there used to be
In what used to be Russia
I don't think they downloaded much software over there
That's something
They got it all off of our system
We're taking phone calls
At 212-279-3400
Talking about
This wonderful new law
That's gone into effect
And we'll see if anybody out there
Has differing opinions on it
If anyone has filed their taxes already
With whatever software or messages
They've downloaded
From various bulletin board systems
Let's take our first call
Good evening
Hi, I heard your discussion
Here about this new law
And I just wanted to
Give my comment on it
I think what's going to happen with this
Is that it won't kill the bulletin boards
But what it will kill
Will be the downloading of software
And I think that the real
Villains behind this
May be the big software houses
That want to squash
Some of the shareware
Programming that's going on out there
And I think that's what the
Effect of this will be
Because I think that a lot of
Information like messages
And those types of things
Don't have a fair market value
And so that they won't be taxed
And places like Citibank
And whatever
You know that their lawyers
Will get right on the case
And they'll be exempted somehow
But it's the little guys
That will get squashed by this
Well you know, you say the little guys will get squashed
But look at the power of ham radio
Those are people that know how to lobby
And if you have the same
Kind of lobbying technique
In computer bulletin board operators
Don't you think it could mean something there?
Oh sure, I'm not saying that
The ball game is over
I'm just saying that in terms of who's behind
This legislation
And what the real intent of it is
I think that possibly the telephone company
Might be one of the culprits
They're being against the bulletin boards
But I somehow suspect that
It might be the big software houses
That in one fell swoop
Eliminate the whole
Shareware industry
Yeah well they tried computer viruses
Didn't they? That didn't quite work
Well that was bandied about
And maybe they were behind some of that stuff
Yeah
Do you have any specific questions
To our guests?
No I guess not, just a comment
Thanks a lot
I think your points were very well taken there
And the
Shareware
Demise
Is something that I think is a very good point
You did say
Something that
Sparked something else
If you comply as a sysop
And
Pay this tax
You automatically
Become a business
You no longer can say that you are
Doing your hobby
You no longer can use
Your personal telephone
You have to have a business telephone
In order to conduct
Your business
Which you are paying tax on
So it's kind of
Kind of a trap in other words
Absolutely
You can obey the law
And watch your cost of operations
Plus
The fact that
The way the law is written
We have no definition
On software
You know
That's software
In a very very broad
Interpretation is information
The text files
The binary files
If they're going to tell me that
Gee just if they'll define
Software as binary files
I can take every file I have on the
Door site and use a system
Called UU ENCODE
Convert it all to text files
And say hey guys
It's a message read it
And tax me
No and not tax you
Tax me
And we'll apply your
Definition but there is no
Definition of what is
Software
You think that's because there's
No understanding of how it all works
Yes there is no
Evidence of any understanding
At all into the
Hobbyist community
I think it goes much further
Than that I don't believe there's any
Understanding of what
They're talking about
In this law here we have
People who are supposed to be educated
People writing laws
About things which they know
Absolutely nothing
Namely the vocabulary
Of the field that they are writing laws about
Namely software
What is software
Software is such a very
Large category
That they didn't
Even bother to define it
I mean come on
Fellas that's one
Of the basic things here you must
Define what you're talking
About now I think one thing
We can all agree upon is that the people writing
Laws aren't experts
On computers software that
Kind of thing how can we educate
These people
Look Mario
Como Alphonse Nomado
Want to walk into our space
I will dedicate an entire week
And I make
A good bit of money in a week
Sit down and teach
Them about software I'll teach
Them about the community
Where it came from
Where it's going
The entire micro
Computer industry
Was not a creation of IBM
It was not a creation
Of Apple
It existed before any of these people
When I started
In micros
And I'm not going to say how long ago
Because I'm not going to tell my age
I knew
There was one person
In the entire state of Texas
Had exactly my
Set up I knew his home phone number
I knew his work phone number
And he and I talked almost every other night
Exchanging
Information
You know this little wonderful thing
Called the IBM PC
Grew out of a lot
Of people like me
Which became
Apple which became IBM
You know that's that's where
It came from it's being killed now
The way a lot of us in the hacker
World look at all this is
There's two different kinds of
Rules of playing any game
There's the corporate rules and there's the individual
Rules in corporations
You pay huge inflated prices
For things that individuals just
You know pass around freely
Do you see this as perhaps an attempt to
Inflict those corporate rules
Onto the general populace
It has that effect
It has that effect
It hasn't worked out too much in the past
So
I'd be a bit optimistic perhaps
Okay our number is 2793400
Let's see who else is out there
Good evening
Oh yeah hi
I was wondering
The point you brought up about
Ham radio operators and lobbying
That's not necessarily so
They just lost a large chunk of their spectrum
In the 220 megahertz range
Are you telling me
They didn't get anything in return for it
No
The FCC gave it to I believe UPS
And FedEx
And companies like that
That's pretty embarrassing
Yeah and so
As far as their lobbying powers
They're actually pretty weak
But I'm curious
I'm going to have to just ask this question
And hang up but I'm curious
If the guys from Delphi
Feel that
CompuServe and Genie
And companies like that
Are going to give them any assistance
It would seem to me that they
Would be even more than Delphi
They would have a much
Larger tax load
For something like this
I've got to go
Thanks for calling
I'm sure you have a correction
Okay for the caller
Delphi Online
Do you get that kind of confusion a lot?
Not really
We're amazingly
Much more professional than Delphi
I'm sure that will generate a lot of
Controversy but just continue
It's a very very
Mixed bag
As to whether CompuServe
Delphi, Genie, etc
etc
Will
Handle this
I have a feeling what they're going to do
Is they're just going to pass on the amount of the tax
In your monthly bill
And say hey guys you downloaded software
That we think is valued at
$1500
Well you owe us
120 some odd dollars
In taxes
And pass it on to the state
I don't think they're going to fight it
Charles as a software person
Do you think they have
The software in place at this time
To make that kind of a determination
Of the value of the software
And charge it to the individual
Subscribers
No but it wouldn't be
Hard to do that
It would not be very hard at all because
All I have to do is go through the basic
Caller log and say you downloaded file
A, file B, and file C
And our best guess on
The taxable
That's assuming there is a file log
So you're not saying you have to keep a file log
Probably
What you'll have to do
Is you'll have to produce
Records of transactions
You'll have to open your BBS caller log
To some guy from the state
Who's going to go through and say
Well I have this little
Program here on my PC
And I'm going to type in the name of all the programs
Which we have in your file
Listing that you've downloaded
And that's going to give us
A taxable value of worth
That we say the programs are worth
Oh you downloaded
As easy as six times
Well that's $1800
You downloaded
Procom plus test drive
Ten times
That's $750 worth of taxable value
Okay grand total is
Oh you owe us
$18,000 or such
In
For a 12 year old that downloads software
That's going to be quite a
Crippling bill there
Now let's address the person
That doesn't really use computers
That doesn't download software
Doesn't even have a computer
Should they be concerned about something like this
Yes
Okay very simply
If this flies
If this law goes through
In this format
Anything
Which involves
A
Information transfer
And that's not just computers
That's photocopying
That's a book
You name it
Will become taxable
At some point information will stop flowing
Because it's simply too expensive
To flow
So theoretically you lend a book to a friend
And that becomes taxable
That transaction
You would owe the taxable value
Of the book
Now of course
But that is not the cover price of the book
That is what the New York State Finance Department
Says the value of the book is
Now people will say
Of course it's impossible to legislate
Lending books out but
If you add to that
The fact that more and more of what we do
In our daily lives is being done
Electronically
You'll see that we're moving towards
Electronic publications
We're moving towards electronic transfer
Of various bits of data
So if it only applies to that
Then slowly but surely
It's going to become the norm for all of us
Yes
That's exactly why we're so outraged
This will become the norm
Right now
It's on the breaking edge
And if we collectively
Everyone out there
Takes and writes
The governor of the state of New York
What the heck are you guys doing in Albany
That is how this law
Will get changed
And it will affect
Generations to come
If we do nothing and sit back
It will affect generations to come
And they will be slaves
To the system
We'll give a number out at the end of the show
But I wanted to ask you now
If there's a particular number people can call
To either get you or
A central organizing committee or anything like this
The closest that we have
Right now is you can call
The Dorset Diplomatic Mission
At 431-1944
That's a data line
What about voice lines?
Do you have any of those?
We have no voice lines as of yet
This is struck at a most
Unique time for us
We have just purchased a building
That we were going to follow in the steps
Of the Boston Computer Society with
We've purchased a building
And it was going to be
The housing for the
Dorset Diplomatic Mission
And the Dorset Embassy
And its support staff
There was going to be public
Access meeting areas
Public access computing areas
One of the things
That could very easily have been done
Since we would have a large number of phone lines
Anyway is just throw out some phones
And have some people man the phones
And pass out the information
Where right now we just
As I said just bought the building
And we're now trying
To scrape up the money to do
Things like put in a roof, put in electricity
Water, gas, flooring
Is there an address people can write to
I'm just thinking of those people that don't have computers
The Dorset Diplomatic Mission
428 Broom Street
Loft 5R
New York, New York
10013
Okay and if you missed those numbers
Or that address we'll repeat them at the end of the show
Be more prepared when we do that
And you won't miss them a second time
279-3400
Area code 212
Let's take another call
Good evening
Hello, am I on the air?
Yes you are
Alright well god I was just driving home
And I heard this message
I mean I heard what you said about this law
Who came up with this law?
We haven't figured that out yet
Our elected officials
An editor or someone like that
How much is it going to cost to enforce such a law?
Think of all the software they'd have to write
Everything they'd have to do
It just seems crazy
It seems like the costs would
Outweigh the benefits
Especially when it comes to something like
Especially when it comes to something like
Trying to track down all these people
Using computers
Downloading software
I just downloaded probably
60 or 70 messages today off of internet
And that's like every single day
I can't even imagine
God it just seems crazy
No the bottom line is
What's going to happen is
Mr. Sysop's going to be sitting at home
Chatting very blithely away
With a user on the phone line
And going to come and knock at his door
And at the door is going to be a federal marshal
With a shotgun that's loaded
And he's going to say
I'm from the New York State
State Finance and Taxation Department
We have come
To take your computer
Because you haven't paid your taxes
Well this is state not federal
This is state
So if I for example wanted to
Have people download stuff in New York
I could just go ahead and set up
A BBS in New Jersey
And get away with it right
Absolutely but you walk into the state of New York
And you could be arrested
Uh huh
And also understand there are reciprocal
Agreements for extradition and prosecution
Between New York and New Jersey
Oh I mean
Particularly pertaining to taxes
If I bought a car in New Jersey
Yes
I'd have to pay New York State sales tax on it
Now you know exactly what we're talking about
Oh I mean it just seems crazy
Really
We agree with you completely about that
Is there any way to stop it? Is it too late?
It is too late
How did they go ahead and do this?
It was written into another bill
Which had
I believe was to do with
Attempting to save the environment
I'm very much for saving the environment
Yeah that really seems to
Go right along with this
Well no it's called log rolling
It's called how we
Laws here in this country
It's called log rolling
I want to go on record as doing
Something great and fantastic
And Joe Blow over there
That owes me a favor
Or I owe him a favor
He wants to be named
The Grand Hypooba of the state of Borneo
Ah
Well we attach a rider to this law
That says we're going to name Joe Blow
The Grand Hypooba of the state of Borneo
And when the
This bill is signed
It's now law that he is the Grand Hypooba
Of the state of Borneo
That's how it's done
This law doesn't stand up
I'm sure it wouldn't stand up
In the test in court
Unless of course we get more justices
And judges like the ones we've been
Well what the bottom line is
I'm sure since we've
Appeared on the air
And by the way for those members
Of the New York State Tax Department
Charles Rawls
R-A-W-L-S
Spell it right
On the warrant for my arrest
Please
You know they are listening
We are a not for profit organization
We've applied for 501c3
We have been constrained
By our
By the sensitivity of the fact
That we're asking the state
To extend to us an exemption
So we've not been wanted
To run around and raise a lot of stink
But this is something
That you know
Could be the death of our industry
Could be the death of our hobbies
It went federal it would
Well think about it
Think about it
They say
I saw and I'm not going to quote
The source because I don't remember the source
That 40% of the
Computers microcomputers
Sold in the U.S.
Were sold for
Hobbyist purposes
Okay
Can everyone buy that I hope so
Now that means that 40%
Of the computers sold in New York City
Let's just take New York City
Are sold for hobbyist purposes
Now this law
Could shut down the hobbyist
Industry
I'm sorry you're not going to call a bulletin board
Gee you know
One guy out of ten
Who would be considering buying a computer
Might consider okay
Gee I'm going to buy a computer
To run Lotus 1-2-3 to figure
My taxes
Do my checkbook and maybe play
A video game
If you buy Lotus 1-2-3
You already pay the sales tax on it
Oh yeah but what about
The templates that you might
Want to download from your local
BBS
You make the software yourself and you transfer it to your
Brother I guess you got it
No no no if it's transferred to your brother
You have to pay taxes on it
Oh yeah of course
Because it's not written to his specification
That's right
What was their motive
Money
M-O-N-E-Y
Really think this is going to ultimately
Make more money for everybody
No ultimately what I think
It will be as I was talking about
Is pretty soon we'll have
40% of the computer salesmen
Out of work
40% of the computer technicians out of work
40% of the computer manufacturers
Out of work
40% of the chip manufacturers out of work
Where are they all going to draw their unemployment
From all the taxes the state of New York
Is collecting from the sysops
Well yeah it's like taking the train apart
To feed the engine so you can go further
Yeah right exactly
Thanks for your call we're going to move on
Now if possibly
You could tell us the title
Of the law again the number of the law
The section so people can do some research
Out there to find out who's responsible
For this and hopefully
Next time we're on the air we'll have some names to name
Okay it is
Senate bill number
6079
And assembly number
8491
It states
Proportionately
Paragraphs 5 and 6
Of subdivision B
Of section 1101
Of the tax law
As added by chapter 93
Of the laws of 1965
Are amended to read as follows
Etc etc
Those numbers again are
Senate number 6079
And assembly number 8491
Okay
And that's all we have on it
Alright let's try to race through some more
Phone calls in the time that we have left
Programs off the hook
This is Emanuel Goldstein we're here until
10 o'clock speaking about
A disturbing new law that's gone into effect
That pretty much
Tells people they have to pay a tax
Every time they download software
It's possible this next line
Is not working because it's been acting funny
So be prepared
Is this line working
It's not okay
Let's go to another call
Good evening
Hello
Okay there's nobody there
Good evening
Hello
Well this really raises a menagerie of thoughts
This is kind of similar to the SNL bailout
That people are being asked to make up
For overspending, misappropriation, etc
And you were talking about the Bill of Rights
Before
The Bill of Rights is now on a tour
Going around the country
I happen to be speaking with a guy from the Blue Press
Which happens to actually be a very conservative
Magazine
And the editor of the Blue Press was telling me
That he calls this tour
Of the Bill of Rights
The Goodbye Farewell Tour
He said because a lot of the amendments
Are being knocked away
Chiseled away little by little
And this is another sort of example of it
And in my own personal life
I'm sort of going through an equivalent
Of what you've been discussing
So this really strikes home
Very, very carefully
And I have to tell you that you must
There's no question, I know that you've discussed this quite a bit
You have to make sure that you create
A tidal wave of reaction
Against this thing because
It's just going to lead to one and another and another
In an effort to get money
And you're right, they would take money away from
A baby, they would
They would take the milk away from a baby
Just to be able to
Get some monetary equivalent of it
And if this thing does go through
I'm afraid that the prosecutions
That result from it
Are going to be highlighted
Along the likes of which have already been in 2600
This whole thing is just
It's terrible
Okay, well if the
Bill of Rights
And the Constitution is indeed on a farewell tour
Maybe someday there'll be a reunion tour
Maybe
But it's not going to be in New York
It's kind of unusual
Or unfortunate I should say
Being that this is New York
That is being an intellectual seat
And a business seat, etc
But the way things are shaping up
Over here, it seems like
It's not going to be that
Amiable for
These sorts of pursuits anymore
And I guess you have to look for a greener pasture
Perhaps west coast, midwest
Perhaps as you mentioned
Maybe Texas is a better place
I never liked the idea of going someplace else
Because things are not working out here
You know, it's kind of like running away from the problem
I'm not saying no, what I'm saying is
Trying to at least right this ship
As it's sinking
And one thing after the other is just being hurled
At the public over here
And it's just, I'm afraid it's a matter of time
Until they make it very inhospitable to be living here
Now if you want to stay here and catch bullets in your teeth
I think it's admirable and well
And I'm all for it
But it's just becoming a little bit too much
Okay, thanks for your call
Sure
Well, as you're on your train
Leaving for California or for greener pastures
Why don't you drop the mayor of the state of New York
A letter
And explain to him
Why you think that
He would not make a good president
Good point, good idea
And folks, you have to do things like that
Or else, listening to the radio is one thing
Being outraged is one thing
But if you can't transmit that to somebody else
It's really not going to mean a whole lot
Well, what I've been thinking about
While I've been sitting here talking
Is
The state of New York wants to set the value
Of shareware software
What I think is we need to give them a chance
To do it
Now we have about two gigabytes of files
On the mission
I think we ought to dump them all out
In hexadecimal source code
Attach each file with a form letter
Requesting that they make a determination
On the value of the software for taxation purposes
And ship it to them
By several tractor trailers
And
You know, the bottom line is
Gentlemen, you have 30 days
If you don't
Give me an evaluation on every piece of software
In 30 days
It's going to be assumed to have no value
Well, let's see if we can get some tractor trailers
On short notice
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead
I'm calling
The
Is this
You're on the air, yes
Oh, yeah
Okay, I have about four things
I'll do it real fast
One thing is
What's the
How do you spell
DORSAI
D-O-R-S-A-I
Right
Okay, thank you
Another thing is
Your guest said that he doesn't believe
It's a grand conspiracy
And
I've been
Paying very close attention
To a lot of situations that have been going on
Around the country
And I do believe
There is a type of
Conspiracy
It seems like
Aggressive people
Either get
What is it
Embarrassed by
Something they did or
Killed
The communications
Is something that's extremely
Important to
A free society
And the libraries are being cut
The telephone
Company somehow
And I'm not too sure about all the facts
But in the beginning
The telephone
Was just 10 cents all around
Because
They were able to progress
And
And
And
Their experiments
Offset whatever
Raises and pay and stuff
They had for their people
So it was a progressive company
And since it's been cut up
Everybody
Is talking about sales
Because the other guys
Is raising their prices
And the telephone
On the outside
Is two and a half times
What it was
For, I don't know, maybe 20 years
And when at home
It comes out to be four times
What it was
I'm gonna have to ask you to wrap it up in about 15 seconds
Can you do that?
Oh boy
Five of them are gone now
Okay
Pack it up
Declined my offer I guess
But I do want to fit in one more phone call
Before we give out the phone numbers again
And end the program
Good evening
Let me just hit the radio
Yeah
Okay, very interesting topic
I'd like to tell you what happened to me
A couple of days ago
Okay
I tried to call a number of a friend of mine
Was busy for a long time
Off a pay phone
So I called the operator to ask
To find out if there's trouble
I have to deposit one dollar
Does this have anything to do with what we're talking about tonight?
No
Okay, I'm afraid you're gonna have to save that for another show
Only because we do want to devote the show to this particular topic
But we are interested in what you have to say
Just call back on another show
When the topic is a bit more open
Good evening
Yes
I actually think that
People should be very concerned
That this thing is starting up in New York
Because this is how they check things out
To play it around the country
Good point, very good point
It's a test case in many ways
One other point I'll make very quickly
Is that I believe that it's gonna be one of these laws
That's selectively enforced
Depending on if they need to get a hold of somebody
To screw them around
They're gonna ignore everybody else
Absolutely
That's why I spelled my name for the arrest warrant
Alright, well I wish you luck
And please repeat all this information
I've got my tape running now
If I can get it all down
Thanks for calling
Alright, let's get that information out
Phone numbers, addresses, that kind of thing
Okay, the Dorset Diplomatic Mission
Data phone line is
431-1944
That's area code 212
The Dorset Diplomatic Mission
Address
Is
428 Broom Street
Loft 5R
New York, New York
10013
Just address it to
Jack Brooks, Charles Rawls
Or CISOP
And we'll get back to you as soon as possible
All the relevant information
Is posted on the
On the bulletin board
Which is free by the way
It is free
Did you give the number for that?
Yes we did
The data phone line again
Is 431-1944
Area code 212
The only address
You really need
Is not our address
It's the address of
Mary Ocomo
Your local representative
Your state legislator
And the American
Civil Liberties Union
Yeah, let's get them involved in this
These people are going after your
First, second, and fifth amendments
Through freedom of speech
The freedom of the press
And your freedom to assemble
In a manner of your choice
Okay
Charles Rawls and Jack Brooks
The Dorset Diplomatic Mission
I want to thank you very much for coming down here tonight
But more importantly I want to thank you for
Taking a stand on what could be a
Really important issue for us
And many future generations
Good luck to you
And anybody that needs to get a hold of
People at 2600
If you want to pass along information to us
You can call us
516-751-2600
Or write to me, Emanuel Goldstein, CAIR of WBAI
505 8th Avenue, New York
New York
And we won't be back next week
Because of the CIA
Robert Gates hearings
And we won't be back the week after that
Because of Marathon
But it's my understanding that we'll be back in three weeks
So we'll see you then on Off the Hook
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall, I cut myself while shaving,
now I can't make a call, it couldn't get much worse, but it...