Following a report of a family argument, initially police said Mary Mitchell struck Officer
Hurworth with a nightstick and threatened him with a knife, but later Police Commissioner
Lee Brown said there was no evidence to support that claim.
Hurworth shot Mitchell fatally in the chest.
In announcing the indictment today, the Bronx District Attorney's Office called the shooting
unjustified, but some are calling it murder.
Roger Wareham is director of the Medgar Evers Center for Law and Social Justice.
The fact that they brought a manslaughter to indictment is really an insult to people's
intelligence.
And it's an insult to the black community and it's a comment on the District Attorney's
view of the importance of black life, which is ironic since the Bronx District Attorney
is black.
You're saying you think that if Mary Mitchell had been white that there could be a murder
indictment?
I think that had Mary Mitchell been white, she would still be alive.
Certainly had Mary Mitchell been white and had all police officers been black, let's
say we reverse the situation, there would have been an indictment.
But had she been white, I don't think she would have been shot in the first place.
Officer Hurworth was released on his own recognizance today after the DA's unsuccessful
request that bail be set at $25,000.
If convicted of the manslaughter charge, he would face a maximum sentence of 5 to 15 years
in jail.
But Wareham says the indictment is more an attempt to appease the community than to serve
justice.
He says if Johnson had wanted a murder indictment, he could have gotten it.
It was the chief judge of the state of New York who said that the grand jury is basically
an instrument of the prosecutor and that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict
a ham sandwich if he so wished.
And so the fact that this grand jury came down with a manslaughter 2 indictment, in
my view, is a reflection of what it was the district attorney wanted because the grand
jury basically functions on the information that's presented to it by the district attorney.
There's enough evidence, I believe, to warrant a higher degree of felony indictment and that
the district attorney needs to go back to the grand jury and present that.
Whether that will happen, Wareham says, depends on how hard the district attorney is pushed
by public outcry about the case.
For WBAI News, I'm Julie Cohen.
Death, destruction, and tragedy could well be the outcome of a city decision to save
money.
This according to the firefighters union.
They say a little girl may have died unnecessarily just last night in a fire.
This morning, the fire union denounced the city's budget cutters for putting dollars
before lives.
Nina Biddle reports.
City Hall has abrogated its public safety obligation, according to James Boyle, president
of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, or UFA.
At a press conference this morning, Boyle and others stressed the need for awareness
of the process of decimation that is taking place within the city's fire service while
the city has just ended its deadliest year in fire-related deaths.
Engine Company 17 has been protecting the Lower East Side for 125 years.
Located on Pitt Street at Delancey, it is the first of several companies to be cut this
year.
UFA spokesperson Michael Carter explains what the cuts will mean.
Almost all the firehouses in Manhattan are what we call double houses, where you have
an engine and a ladder company in one station.
They respond in tandem, and when they get to the scene of a fire, basically the engine
company stretches hose line, the ladder company begins rescue operations.
The situation we're going to be faced with on Pitt Street is a ladder company now is
going to be going out by itself.
When they have a fire that's going to require rescue, in the past they've had an engine
company there to basically position a line between the fire and the victim.
The ladder company now that's on Pitt Street doesn't have that option anymore, and what
we feel is the firefighters there are going to be gambling with the fire, and it's certainly
going to lead to tragedy.
The city says other companies will fill the void left by closing Engine Company 17, but
Carter is skeptical.
The hose is going to have to come from neighboring companies.
The department basically justifies this by coming up with a model, and they basically
crunch numbers and they determine what they think the time delay is going to be.
I just want to point out that their numbers, in my opinion, are not realistic, and that
they're basically done at night when there's no traffic, and as we all know, traffic in
New York City is getting worse, certainly not better.
Last night may have provided just the tragic example firefighters are dreading.
A fire broke out in an apartment in Harlem, killing one girl and leaving her grandmother
in serious condition.
While their local engine company, Engine Company 47, located two blocks away, was in
the Bronx helping another company.
Again, UFA spokesperson Michael Carter.
Whenever you take a company out of its response pattern, now you're relying on the outlying
companies making it in there.
What you had last night was 47 Engine was relocated to the Bronx.
That left a gap in fire protection.
Now when the alarm came in, in my opinion, and I've looked at the times, you had at least
a minute more before our presence was felt at that fire.
Now the victims, the three-year-old and her grandmother, were both found unconscious.
One was resuscitated, one wasn't.
What that means to me is that these people were teetering on the verge of life and death.
I say 30 seconds to a minute would absolutely have made a difference in this point.
The Firefighters Union is worried that if such an incident can occur while an engine
company is away from its post for two and a half hours, what will happen when that company
no longer exists?
Other companies being closed today are the Marine Company 2, based on the Hudson River
at the foot of Bloomfield Street in Manhattan, and Engine Company 294 in Richmond Hill, Queens.
They are the first to be disbanded since Engine Company 232 in Brooklyn was shut down in January
of 1988.
The city currently has about 250 fire companies.
Six more companies are targeted for closure later this year, with the possibility of the
elimination of another 40 or so in 1992.
The union also says firefighting has become more difficult in the past year, with the
reduction from five to four firefighters in all fire trucks.
UFA spokesperson Carter says overall morale among firefighters is extremely low.
Right now, basically the city administration has sent the message to the firefighters that
fire protection is not a priority in this city.
The firefighters kind of look themselves in the mirror in the morning and say, hey,
if they don't care, why should I care?
The mayor's office referred all calls to the city fire department, which did not return
repeated WBAI calls.
The Uniformed Firefighters Association plans to continue protesting as other companies
are cut.
While the city claims it saves about $1 million per year per company, the UFA says the preservation
of life is government's responsibility, and that everything else, including bond ratings,
must come second.
For WBAI News, I'm Nina Biddle.
And finally, from Washington, the only socialist in Congress spent much of his first day on
the job conferring with liberal lawmakers on how to keep the United States from going
to war with Iraq.
Representative Bernard Saunders, who ran as an independent in winning Vermont's only house
seat, missed most of the reception held in his tiny office after he was sworn into the
102nd Congress.
He left the celebration to confer with Democrats on ways to avert a U.S. offensive against
Iraqi forces.
Saunders, who was born in Brooklyn, worked as a carpenter and documentary filmmaker before
serving eight years as mayor of Burlington, Vermont.
The self-proclaimed socialist was rejected for membership in the Democratic caucus, but
Democratic leaders have assured Saunders he will be treated fairly when committee assignments
are made.
And that's some of the news for Thursday, January 3, 1991.
The news was engineered by Anthony Sloan.
It was produced with Nina Biddle, Julie Cohen, Amy Goodman, and Alan Lipke.
I'm Jenny Bourne in New York with Don Rush in Washington for the WBAI listener-sponsored
news.
And this is WBAI in New York.
Stay tuned for a special wartime edition of Investigations.
It's you and I resolved now that we will persevere in this effort until every American
soldier is home from the Persian Gulf.
On Sunday, January 13, at 6 p.m., WBAI will broadcast a live teach-in sponsored by the
Campaign for Peace in the Middle East.
On Saturday, January 19, we will join thousands of people from across the country in Washington,
D.C., as they march to the White House to show their opposition to war in the Gulf.
Our live coverage begins at 12 noon.
Then on Saturday, January 26, Pacifica Radio will go to the nation's capital yet again
and cover another anti-war march and rally.
Tune in to WBAI 99.5 FM for the latest on the crisis and the growing national opposition
to the U.S. presence in the Gulf.
WBAI Pacifica Radio, committed to peace for 30 years.
And may we live to see 31.
Good evening.
This is Emanuel Goldstein filling in for Andrew Phillips, and this is Investigations.
And we're going to be doing a little bit of investigating tonight and also receiving feedback,
as we always do from our listeners, on what could be an upcoming catastrophe, and I'm
sure you all know what we're referring to.
It's now being called in circles War Day, Tuesday, January 15, 1991.
Not the day that everybody expects a war to start, but the day when everybody knows that
a certain deadline will be passed, and lots of stubborn people will resolutely proclaim
various things, and God only knows what we're going to get ourselves involved in.
We're going to try and speak with actual soldiers over there, and I say try because it's not
easy.
We've managed to obtain a phone number, but no guarantees there, and we're going to look
at just where all of this is going to be leading us.
Some interesting things.
You know, this is the first potential war that we've had an advance promotion for.
You know, we have a date for this war.
This one's going to start on a certain day, and all the networks are getting their acts
together.
We know January 15th is the time that we all have to be ready.
I mean, Vietnam wasn't that courteous.
We didn't know exactly when things were going to happen, and of course we don't know exactly
when things are going to happen here, but it seems to be a bit of a show, a bit of a
show for a lot of people.
Folks, war is not entertainment.
War is sudden horror.
Jesus, Jesus, what's it all about?
There is something that I'm not aware of.
And all I need is to know.
You will stand the light of day.
When we came back from the war, the fancy flags hung on everyone's door.
And that's what we'd sing in the street when the church bells rang.
But the burning in my heart, the memory smoldering in this arm,
the torch died,
unending.
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Getting back to the editorial.
By this tortured logic, the need to maintain a credible threat of war would mean that the time will never come for Congress to vote.
The leadership's position would be more understandable if there had been a behind-the-scenes deal.
The rumor around Washington was that, in return for unfettered authority to threaten war, Mr. Bush had pledged not to wage war without congressional approval.
Last weekend, the House Armed Services Committee chairman, Les Aspin, scotched that talk.
The administration has not in any time, any form, ever committed to that.
A deferred debate on a declaration of war invites divisiveness at the worst possible time, after Mr. Bush takes the country to war.
Mr. Bush's brinkmanship is running out of time to show results.
If Congress prefers sanctions and diplomacy to an early war, why not vote to give them a reasonable chance to work?
Maybe we can put a little addendum in there saying,
George Bush, we believe that you're as masculine as you can possibly be at your age,
and you're not a wimp, not a wimp at all.
You're a strong-willed guy.
I think that's what this is all about, really.
I mean, I've never seen somebody have so many ultimatums.
I'm not saying that what Saddam Hussein's doing over there is right, but why is it?
Why is it that this has turned into a George Bush versus Saddam Hussein kind of a thing?
It doesn't make sense to me.
I mean, they invaded another country.
It's not our country, or maybe it is our country.
You know, maybe we own Kuwait.
It sure seems like we own Kuwait, the way we're acting.
I'd also like answers to a couple other questions while I'm on the subject here.
Sanctions, for instance.
We're all big on sanctions all of a sudden.
Why is it sanctions could never work in South Africa?
Why is it that we never wanted to, quote-unquote,
hurt the people that we were trying to help?
You know?
But all of a sudden, when Iraq invades Kuwait, well, you've got to use sanctions.
Well, what about the people there?
Do we care about the people there?
And another question I might as well ask while I'm rolling here.
What about other countries?
What about other countries like Tibet?
Oh, that's not a country anymore.
Right, it was taken over by the Chinese.
Well, we don't really care about the Tibetans, do we?
Or the Namibians?
Or any one of a whole host of other countries where these things happen.
If we know how to stick our noses out of something,
I don't understand why we stick our noses into something like this.
It's not about democracy.
It's about oil.
And I'd really like to know if there's anyone out there that doesn't believe that.
The question, I guess, is, is oil worth fighting and dying for?
And another question perhaps is,
have our armed forces become nothing more than a traveling band of mercenaries
looking to extinguish flames of various sorts wherever they wind up going?
Don't start the talking
I could talk all night
My mind goes sleepwalking
While I'm picking a word to write
Calcari is information
Have you got yourself an occupation?
Our armed forces here to stay
Our arms are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
There was a check for Charlotte
It didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing parted
When you've been on the murder map
It only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white nigger
Our armed forces here to stay
Our arms are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
Hong Kong is up for grabs
London is full of abs
We could be in Palestine
Overrun by the Chinese line
With the boys from the Mercy of the Towns in the town
But there's no danger
It's a professional career
It could be arranged
We're just awaiting Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck or out of work
We could send you to Johannesburg
Our armed forces here to stay
Our arms are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
And I would rather be anywhere else
But here today
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh
You know, World War I...
I can't say I remember World War I, but I've read about it.
And it started over a most ridiculous premise.
And it just got worse and worse and worse.
And of course, World War I led us into World War II,
which was probably the biggest disaster ever
that mankind was responsible for.
Right now, the whole situation over in the Persian Gulf looks kind of silly.
You've got Saddam Hussein strutting his stuff,
prancing around, invading other countries,
and not having much support at all from the rest of the world.
I mean, all the superpowers are against him.
Most of the other countries of the world are against him.
So how can he possibly succeed?
Well, he has a very formidable military presence.
And we've had our hand in building that up.
We've had our hand in providing Saddam with much of his know-how,
much of his equipment.
And the Soviets have as well.
And I'm sure many other countries.
So he has the ability to start something that can get very, very nasty.
And who knows what will happen as people start dying,
as bombs start going off, as cities start being destroyed,
as we see the effects of chemical warfare,
something that we've never really seen before.
We chose to ignore it when it was going on only a couple of years ago.
It didn't involve American lives.
It wasn't important.
The madness intensifies.
NATO announced on January 2nd
that it would send three squadrons of German, Italian, and Belgian jet fighters
to Turkey to strengthen its border with Iraq in case a war breaks out,
just in case.
The move was strenuously endorsed by the United States.
The action was significant for Germany
because what was West Germany
has never before deployed military forces outside its borders
and had not sent any forces to the Persian Gulf
because of constitutional restrictions
against its military forces being sent outside the NATO area.
Well, it's a brand new beginning.
The deployment of a squadron of 18 Alpha jets
was justified by the government of Chancellor Helmut Kohl
because Turkey is a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization
and Germany is obliged to come to its defense,
as are all other NATO members.
The opposition Social Democrats have threatened
to try to block the move within Parliament,
saying it violates the Constitution.
Except for the participation of East German troops
in the invasion of Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968,
no German forces have been involved in military action
outside German borders since World War II.
The East German army has been disbanded
as part of the unification process
and has been absorbed by the former West German army.
The military move taken at the request of Turkey
comes at a time of increasing speculation
about a possible European initiative
aimed at resolving the Gulf crisis.
A senior French politician with close ties to President Francois Mitterrand
flew to Baghdad for talks with Iraqi authorities
before a meeting of European Community Foreign Ministers
scheduled for later today, Friday.
Let's all keep our fingers crossed.
I know people in the news media want some action.
They want to be able to make all these millions of dollars they've spent
going over to the Persian Gulf.
They want to make it all pay off.
There's something in a lot of us.
There's a sense that we want something exciting to happen, you know?
Turn on the radio and wonder what's going to be happening next.
But there's a downside to all that, folks, a very big downside.
And that's the horror of war.
And this is potentially a very horrible war.
Speaking of the press, something else in today's New York Times,
Thursday's New York Times,
about the requirements for press coverage in Saudi Arabia.
You have to pass a physical.
It's pretty incredible.
You have to pass a physical to cover what's going on over there.
Worried that too many reporters are too far out of shape to cover a war,
Pentagon officials have imposed a physical fitness test
on journalists who wish to be sent out with American troops
if there is battle with Iraq.
The test, which some journalists say has frightened them more than Saddam Hussein ever did,
requires the reporters to meet the standards the military sets
for its own men and women for sit-ups, push-ups, and a mile-and-a-half run.
So let's take a look at these requirements here.
Oh, my goodness.
Well, if you're 27 to 31, I don't know why they don't have anybody below 27,
and you're a man, you have to do 42 sit-ups in two minutes.
Forty-two sit-ups in two minutes,
or you cannot cover a story for whatever newspaper, magazine,
or electronic media that you work for.
So I guess that means Philip Shannon of the New York Times is able to do,
depending on how old he is, if he's 27 to 31, he's able to do 42 in two minutes,
32 to 36, 38 in two minutes, and 42 and over, 29 in two minutes.
Twenty-seven-year-olds must do 38 push-ups in two minutes.
Forty-two and over must do 26 in two minutes.
And one-and-a-half-mile run,
lots of people that couldn't do a one-and-a-half-mile run,
but they insist that if you're 20 to 29, you have to do it in 13 minutes and 45 seconds.
If you're 50 and over, you have to do it in 17 minutes.
And the requirements for women are slightly greater than that,
meaning more time is allowed and fewer sit-ups and push-ups are allowed.
Oh, wow, look at this. Look at this. Push-ups.
Drastic difference, and I guess there's some sort of physiological reason for this.
If you're 27 to 31, you have to do 38 push-ups in two minutes.
I didn't mention that, but if you're a woman, you only have to do 15, less than half.
And 42 and over, 26 for males, 12 for females.
That's the only part of the physical where there's that much of a discrepancy.
Anyway, Edith Lederer of the Associated Press,
a London-based correspondent who covered the Vietnam War in 1972 and 1973,
said, I was very apprehensive. I'm a swimmer, not a runner,
and I think I found some muscles that I didn't even know existed.
Ms. Lederer took the test, I guess, two days ago.
The January weather in the Saudi desert was good for exercise, reasonably cool and dry, and she passed.
I was very proud of myself, she said, noting that while she did finish last in the women's run,
I ran it all the way and didn't have to walk like some of the others.
The passing standards are broken down between men and women and by age.
The testing began several days ago at a luxury hotel in this eastern Saudi city of Dharan,
where a road behind the swimming pool was used as a running track.
Of the dozens of journalists tested so far, only a handful have failed, all of them men.
Make-up tests are scheduled.
The Pentagon has imposed other requirements on journalists who wish to be part of the so-called combat pool,
a rotating group of journalists whose reports from the front lines with American troops
would be shared with their colleagues in Saudi Arabia.
They must also attend a lecture on how to defend against chemical weapons and to be outfitted for a gas mask.
Well, as promised, let's give it a shot here.
Let's try to call overseas to Saudi Arabia and actually speak to somebody.
We'll definitely be speaking to somebody involved in the military.
But what we're going to try to do is get connected to...
Well, I'm not quite sure how it's set up.
I imagine a payphone ring somewhere in the middle of the desert and all these soldiers gather around,
but I'm sure it's not like that at all.
We're going to attempt to get such a scene.
And if anyone out there knows of a number, knows of a way of getting a hold of a particular battalion or group of some sort,
please phone in, 212-279-3400, with that information.
OK, let's get an operator on the line and see just what we can find out.
Telephone, can you tell them to help you?
Yes, I need long distance, please.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Agent, can I help you?
Yes, hello, operator.
We're having some difficulty dialing direct to Saudi Arabia.
I was wondering if you could help us.
Do you have a number?
Yes, country code 966, city code 3, the number is 899-1119.
Thank you, hold on.
Thank you.
Line is busy.
Line's busy?
The line is busy.
OK, thank you very much.
When the line is busy, folks, the only thing you can do is start over.
I'll try it one more time.
Actually, in Saudi Arabia right now, it's got 8 hours ahead.
May I help you?
Yes, hi, can I have long distance, please?
One moment, sir.
Thank you.
In Saudi Arabia right now, I believe it's 8 hours ahead of us, so that would make it 823 in the morning.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
Thank you.
She sounded a bit slower than she did before.
Morning, AT&T.
Yes, hi, we're having difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia.
I was wondering if you might be able to place the call for us.
Certainly.
Thank you.
City code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
Thank you.
Still busy.
Line's busy.
OK, thank you anyway.
Would you like to try to call later, please?
All right.
That's the trouble you run into.
We're getting through, but they're busy over there doing something.
We were able to make that phone ring only a few hours ago, so we'll give it a try as the show progresses.
Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400, and I suppose we might as well take a few calls,
see what's on people's minds as far as the upcoming war, if there is an upcoming war,
where it's leading, if we're taking the right path, and just what kind of path we should be taking.
But first, a reminder.
Aren't we sending a terrible signal to perhaps further similar problems throughout the world
that while you go ahead in and you do all these things to people, you use chemical weapons,
you gouge their eyes, you rape their women, you take their babies off of the life support systems in hospitals
and drain the blood out of them, and then, yes, we should sit down and negotiate with you
because you have some valid points.
I mean, isn't that sending a bad signal?
Well, if the alternative is war, is that right?
What message are we sending to the world if we have this war?
Countdown in the Gulf, war or peace.
Tune in on Sunday, January 13th, beginning at 1 p.m. for an all-day special on the Persian Gulf crisis.
Featuring in-studio discussions and live updates from the region,
Countdown in the Gulf will culminate in a live three-hour teach-in from the New Yorican Poets Cafe, beginning at 6 p.m.
Countdown in the Gulf, war or peace.
Sunday, January 13th, from 1 to 10 p.m. on listener-supported WBAI 99.5 FM.
That sounds like they're playing the Guns of Brixton in the background. How nice.
Our phone number, again, is 212-279-3400.
Let's see who's out there. Good morning.
Good morning. I've just been listening to everything, and it's just amazing.
They're currently spending about $40 million to a day.
A day, yes.
Now, you estimate that's about close to maybe $1 billion to $2 billion a month.
And could you just hold on for one second? I just have to turn down my radio.
Okay, and that's advisable for anybody calling in. Turn down your radio, or you will be confused.
And always keep your radio near your phone, or there'll be long pauses on the air.
Sorry.
Okay.
Just the waste in terms of humanity, in terms of finance.
Well, it's an incredible waste, especially in wake of some of the things we've seen here in New York.
I mean, last week, the subway fire, for instance.
People died because the system was not maintained, because there was not enough money to maintain it.
They're talking about cutting subway service, cutting train service on the commuter lines, cutting all kinds of social programs.
The money is not there, but yet the money is there to maintain this incredibly expensive venture.
I remember when Daniel Ortega came to the South Bronx, and he was talking about, at that point,
United States had just okayed $270 million to kill 500,000 Nicaraguans that we don't even know.
And, I mean, he was standing in the middle of all this place that looked like bombed-out Europe.
And we're spending all this time and all this energy trying to take him off the planet.
And all he wanted was his people to have a right to something.
And I guess that's because our priorities are wrong.
We're willing to spend all this money to go fight for oil.
But when it comes to the Palestinians on the West Bank or the South Africans in South Africa,
there were sanctions passed against South Africa.
You don't see... I mean, you have to pull teeth to get Americans to try to support these sanctions at the same time.
But, I mean, just in terms of oil alone, I mean, our farmers are going broke.
Our farmers are closing.
I mean, 10 farms closed two weeks ago in Madison, Wisconsin.
Our retailers are going broke, too.
We produce the most corn and grain than anywhere else in the world.
In the world.
We couldn't make fuel from that corn and grain.
It would burn clean and more efficiently.
If we had cars that went 35 or 50 miles to the gallon, we wouldn't need a drop of foreign oil.
Or even if we wanted to go to the root of foreign oil, Mexico has more oil than Saudi Arabia and Kuwait combined.
But it's in our vested interest to bankrupt Mexico and keep the Saudis going.
I believe the total amount that we obtained from both Iraq and Kuwait combined was something like 5%.
But, you know, in a way I'm also angry at the American voter or the person that doesn't vote.
Because the person that doesn't vote or the voter that's uneducated, in a way, we kind of deserve what's happening.
We deserve what's happening in this respect because of the choices that people make or don't make at the voting booth.
Because people don't take the time to find out what's going on.
Well, we feel very safe in our little worlds here.
You know, watching TV and all that and commuting back and forth to work.
This is far, far away.
But the thing that's going to drive it home is the fact that these are our friends, our neighbors, people just like us that are over there now,
that are going to meet horrible, grisly ends unless we do something about it now.
I don't want to see anyone meet a horrible, grisly end.
Right. I'm saying even people that are gung-ho for this.
I don't want to see them die anymore than I want to see someone who doesn't want to be there die.
But, unfortunately, it's going to take something like a horrible, grisly end to make people wake up.
When oil goes, they estimate that oil will go up to $100 a barrel.
That means a gallon of gas will cost $3 a gallon.
Not to mention heating oil.
Is it going to take something like that for an American to get environmentally conscious?
Is it going to take something like that for an average American to start voting according to their conscience as opposed to their, I don't know, their greed?
Is it going to have to take a tragedy to make us politically aware?
It seems to always take a tragedy. It seems to always take a disaster of some sort to wake people and wake governments up.
What worries me about this is it's very easy to get this thing started,
but like a screaming locomotive going down a hill, it's hard as hell to stop.
And once you start a war, it's not something you can just turn off, you know?
Look how long Vietnam took to stop after it was decided that it was going to, in fact, stop.
They started sending advisors over there since 1955, over in Vietnam.
But you brought up Tibet before, you know?
I mean, a year ago this time, we were talking about, wasn't it wonderful that Eastern Europe is finally losing its shackles?
And we also said, what's going to happen to all of that extra Defense Department money that's not going to be needed anymore?
How are we possibly going to find another enemy?
Yeah, it was a clockwork. It was clockwork.
You can't think that if over at least a generation or two generations, that you're developing all this anger, all this hatred.
It's got to go someplace. It's got to go somewhere, you know?
If you don't look at it, if you don't deal with it, it's got to go somewhere.
And it's like anybody else, it's like a person has all this anger.
Sometimes in an extremist case, either they take it out on their family by beating their children or their spouses,
or they take it out on themselves inwardly by taking drugs or abusing themselves for chemicals.
It's the same thing, the same thing in the national conscience.
We're just looking for another enemy.
And if it doesn't go out, the anger is already tearing us up inside.
Racism is on the rise. Homelessness is on the rise, unbelievably.
The governor of Rhode Island closed down all their banking institutions.
These banks were used to wash drug money that was coming into this.
The drug money that was used to finance wars of people some group somewhere didn't like.
I hope that this takes something. In a way, I don't want to see anybody die.
I don't want to see anybody. I'm 28 years old.
What's going to stop them from calling me to go over there?
Well, if you do, make sure you can do 42 sit-ups in two minutes.
Thanks for calling, sir.
You're welcome.
All right. Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
Lots of good points raised in that call.
And we can sort of see how it's all connected together, you know.
And I know that everybody agrees as to how it's connected together.
There is a lot at work here.
I don't know how many people actually want to see us go to war.
I'm admittedly impressed by the way the American public is dealing with this
because I don't see the gung-ho reaction that you saw ten years ago with the Iranians
where lots of people appeared in pickup trucks with bumper stickers that said,
I don't see the same thing here because this is so much closer to home.
We see it as actually happening.
And I really don't know very many people that actually want to see an all-out war
because this could lead to so many bad things.
I've seen it said in the New York Times, actually,
that a likely scenario would be Iraq spraying chemical weapons all over Israel,
wiping out something like 95% of the population
and the remaining 5% of the very angry Israeli population responding with nuclear weapons.
And in that region of the world, things will just get out of hand so incredibly fast
and we'll all be sucked in like so much water in a bathtub.
How's that for an analogy?
Good evening.
Hello?
Yes, hello.
Go ahead.
The point is this, happy 1984 plus 7, okay?
Now, the point is we think of this war as something different.
Actually, we're always in a war.
Life and death go on constantly.
So to judge it by this idea that what would happen if I was over there, I might get killed,
or as Michio Kaku's program just Wednesday evening,
was talking about a caller called in and said,
what about poison warfare, gas warfare, and germ warfare right here in the United States?
If some Iraqi came here and did some, you know, putting chemicals here and biological forms here,
you know, we could devastate New York City or anywhere.
The point is, however, that people are fighting for their lives in hospitals.
Famines go on throughout the world and, you know, you almost don't get them reported
because, well, a person's dying, little children are, you know, getting emaciated in their mother's arms.
You know what I'm talking about.
National Geographic's got pictures of them and Life magazine and Time and so on and so forth.
So the problem is that who knows, maybe in the future with this idea of George Bush's New World Order,
we won't go into South Africa as like a peace force there,
because, I mean, it's not as if George Bush doesn't associate with Afro-American people.
George Bush's name is head of military, right?
Right.
Now, the point is this.
We definitely need improvements here.
We definitely need, the whole world needs, you know, we want to live in peace.
I mean, relatively speaking, it's a better state of life than other things.
But, you know, the funny thing is, it's not funny, but I say it in a kind of ironical way,
maybe Beckett might say it or some of these other thinkering literary people.
The war is with God because the whole thing has been going on from day one.
You know, if we were expelled from paradise, the Garden of Eden, you know, the problem is humanity, people.
We don't treat each other just right.
I could go on and on.
A chap who wrote for Foreign Affairs magazine, they have a little quote that they distributed,
and they say, Saddam Hussein came out of a brittle land.
The name of the writer is Fuad Ajami.
Saddam Hussein came out of a brittle land, a frontier country between Persia and Arabia,
with little claim to culture and books and grand ideas,
as compared with, for instance, Ayatollah Khomeini, who everybody despises here.
You know, when I say everybody, I mean none his religion.
Anyway, it goes on to say, the new contender was a despot, a ruthless and skilled warden,
who had tamed his domain and turned it into a large prison.
I mean, we had the Iran-Contra thing.
So many things are going on that we don't even know.
Who the hell knows all the details that exist in the world that George Bush is even contending with,
that we don't even know?
The whole thing is such, it's almost like life is some sort of a human comedy of tragedy.
You know, it reminds me of Blade Runner, the movie, where these poor androids come back
and they're trying to get to God, who lives in this fantastic tall building,
and they want to plead that he will figure a control so they can live longer.
We all want to live because we like talking to our friends, listening to WBAI, and so forth.
Let's leave God out of it, because this is something involving humanity,
involving each and every one of us, and if we look to God for the answers,
we're going to miss what's right underneath our noses.
I mean, people find comfort in all kinds of things,
but we have to start taking responsibility for our actions.
Nobody is going to come out of the sky and save us,
and that's unfortunately what a lot of people seem to believe.
They seem to believe that it's all predestined,
and that certain things will just naturally take care of themselves,
and Saddam Hussein will be struck down.
Well, you know, it's not that simple. It's just not that simple.
And we just have to take responsibility for the things that we do.
And that goes, you know, on a national level, it goes on an individual level.
There is not one person listening to this radio program now
that cannot make a difference if they choose to.
And whether or not you choose to, actually, you make a difference,
because if you decide not to do anything, that makes a difference too.
A caller before mentioned all the people that didn't vote.
Well, if you're one of them, you may think you're not making a difference,
but you are, because by not participating,
you're steering the ship in a certain direction,
and it's a direction almost nobody wants to go.
Good evening.
Go ahead.
You touched on something briefly that I had been saying
and talking to a couple of friends about a few weeks ago,
and that is the wimp factor.
Every time Bush's aides tell him that,
Mr. Bush, they're calling you a wimp in the New York Times,
people are going to needlessly and foolishly die,
because this man has to prove his manhood.
It's ridiculous.
I think we should put out in the press that Mr. Bush is a bad man,
a really tough character.
Nonsense wouldn't have to go on.
I think it would be incredible.
Already the Iraqi government said that Bush must have been drunk to think something,
but if Saddam Hussein got on national TV and just said,
Mr. Bush, you are a wimp,
he'd probably nuke the whole country if he did that.
Right away.
That's the magic word.
I think Time Magazine got it,
the two-facedness of George Bush.
Right.
Okay, good night, Al.
Thanks for calling.
Thanks.
212-279-3400 is our phone number.
Let's give Saudi Arabia one more try and see if we can get that phone to ring over there.
Hopefully it's not going to be off the hook all day long.
It's about 840 over there.
Hello, Mr. Smith.
May I help you?
Yes, hello.
We need long distance, please.
For which area, please?
This would be for Saudi Arabia.
Thank you.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
Thank you.
Every time I hear that recording, it sounds slower.
This is AT&T.
Can we help you?
Yes, hello, operator.
We're having difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia.
I was wondering if you could place the call for us.
Sure, what number would that be?
Okay, it's country code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Oh, dear.
I'm getting busy on it now.
That's busy, huh?
Okay, thanks anyway.
You're welcome.
It's amazing how you can always tell a busy signal.
There's that repetitive sound to it no matter where you go.
Good evening.
Good morning, I should say.
Good evening.
Go ahead.
The thing with the last call about the God point,
I think he was trying to say that the problem with the God thing
is that a lot of people think they've got God on their side.
A lot of people think they've got God on their side.
That's what he was trying to say.
Not that we have to turn to God for an answer,
but the problem is everybody thinks their God is right.
Right.
It boils down to the same thing,
which is, you know, dragging God into it in the first place,
I think that's a mistake.
Okay, all right.
So then here's an interesting anecdote.
On New Year's Eve, I was in a rock & roll bar,
and they were singing Living in the USA.
You know that song?
The guy living in the USA?
Who does it?
I'll stand around.
I'm so glad I'm living in the USA.
Okay.
Anyway, so they're doing the song.
They're dedicating it to the boys over you-know-where, they say.
There you go.
The guitar says, on January 15th,
you know, bomb that blank brain, da-da-da-da.
And, you know, that's just an anecdote, Tom,
I'm putting out there as a vignette.
I was in a place where that was extremely gung-ho.
Now, I would just like to say,
when you're saying you're very impressed with people not being gung-ho,
and when you call us folks,
and, you know, you're on the WBI,
which has been like an anti-war station,
I don't know who you think you're talking to,
but it's so incredibly patronizing and condescending
that you think that we would not be anti-war,
that you're going to enlighten us,
and that all your stuff with the telephone people,
the way you're mean to the operators,
as if they deserve this kind of abuse.
How am I mean to the operators?
No, I agree with you.
The Big Brother, the telephone company,
masturbate, you know.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
When am I mean to operators?
I'm never mean to operators.
Oh, it's so sarcastic with these operators.
They're like, oh, thank you, operator,
and all this stuff like this.
I meant it.
I said thank you.
Thank you.
I meant it.
I mean, I'm thanking them for...
Oh, come on.
You meant it.
You're so full of anger,
but bigger than that,
we, this audience here,
doesn't need to be condescended to by you.
Thank you very much.
You know, I always find it fascinating
how people who can never listen to another side
always feel they have to hang up
before the other side responds.
Well, folks, I'm sorry if I'm using condescending words
by using the word folks and talking to operators.
I'm not quite sure I understand any of that.
If someone else who's willing to stay on the line a little longer
wants to explain it to me, feel free, please.
Boy, there's nothing worse than having sarcasm
read into your remarks when you're not being sarcastic
and also having sarcasm missed when you are being sarcastic.
Two worst things in the world.
You know, this line has been ringing all night long,
but it doesn't light up,
so you're very lucky to be on the air.
Good evening.
Hi.
Yeah, are you there?
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Uh, um, yeah.
Uh, what I wanted to talk about was that
we don't really need the oil.
I agree with that.
Because we have, um,
they can make oil out of corn and hemp.
A lot of people don't know that they can make it out of hemp
because it's marijuana, but what they can do
is they can make oil out of hemp.
They can make paper, um, clothing, uh, canvas.
Right, but with the, um, hemp products,
they won't, you know, legalize.
They can make, uh, paper also,
and they wouldn't have to cut down any more trees.
Um, it would be the most,
it would pretty much reverse all effects of, uh...
So we could go home because we don't need to be there.
Uh-huh.
Because, um, Kuwait was a monarchy.
It was a dictatorship, as is Saudi Arabia.
And we're not protecting anyone's freedom.
The people there probably just as well have Saddam Hussein.
It's the same thing.
And Saddam Hussein is their perfect leader
because he's their Islamic leader, their religious leader.
God is always, I mean, in Islam, God is very important.
And he's also their political leader.
And, uh, I think on ABC News I saw, uh,
Egyptians, Palestinians, and another group
were all backing Saddam Hussein.
It wasn't government-organized,
but there was this faction as well that joined his army.
I'm curious how much of that is because they really back him
and how much of that is because they just are against us.
You know, against what we've been doing over there.
Well, we certainly helped him out.
No, I've heard that said before quite a few times.
Well, thanks. And I mean it.
I don't say thanks and be sarcastic about it.
You know, I try to say what's on my mind.
And if I want to insult somebody, I usually do a pretty good job of it.
Yeah, you know, and I think we should violently attack
the next politician that says,
well, solar energy is a developing technology.
You know, it's been a developing technology now for 10,000 years.
Let's develop the damn thing already
because it's obviously cheaper, it's obviously unlimited, and it's clean.
Well, that would not surprise me at all either.
You know, a lot of people don't want to hear that.
A lot of people want to say, well, that's just a conspiracy theory of some sort,
even though it's probably true.
And I think the reason is possibly the way it's presented.
You know, if you can use facts and convincing arguments
to show somebody that this is in fact true,
I think in the end you will wind up convincing them
rather than just say, oh, it's all corruption
and it's all evil at the very core.
I guess, you know, that kind of talk turns people off
and they label you something
and then they don't listen to you anymore.
So that's what we've got to be careful of.
Yes, I agree.
Thanks very much for calling.
All right, take care.
Imagine if the draft started again.
Boy, you'd see some flurrying around.
You'd see people start thinking then.
Almost everybody I know who is of draft age
has announced their intention to go to Canada
and I just don't think that's going to work anymore.
I just don't think they're going to have their doors wide open to us.
You're going to need better answers than that, folks.
Whoops, I used that word again, sorry.
Good morning.
Yes, hello, good morning.
I just have to ask a question.
Like I'm an American and I have no vested interest
in anything over there in the Middle East at all,
but I'm kind of aware of somewhat of history
and if what's required for negotiation
is to put all the UN resolutions that have been passed
in that region for the past 50 years or so
on the table and resolve them all,
why is there a fear of that?
I mean, to me that sounds reasonable
because I know there are many problems.
That's a very good question
and it reminds me of something also that happened recently
where they were using the prospect of a Mideast peace conference
as kind of a threat.
Israel was very adamant about not wanting a Mideast peace conference
and the United States was debating
whether or not to insult Israel by voting for it.
It's a peace conference, for God's sake.
It means peace.
It's supposed to be something good.
It's like voting for life.
I want to make myself clear.
I'm aware of the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein,
but he was caught in the corner.
First thing he said, he wanted to debate the issue on the UN floor.
I said, isn't this wonderful?
Isn't this a new way of approaching a situation like this?
Let's hear what the issues are.
Now, when did he say that?
That was early on.
I think it was back in either September or October.
That was considered ludicrous by our administration here.
What about before the actual invasion?
We saw this coming.
We saw the conflicts between Kuwait and Iraq.
We knew the man had a country separated from individual things.
The country had problems.
They knew that he had a large standard army and a sinking economy,
and people that understand these things know that he has one of two choices.
He has to pay his army or face revolt and revolution or collapse.
He wanted to boost up the price of oil and do that,
but for some reason he felt it was shown to him that Kuwait was,
as he charged that Kuwait was some sort of collusion with the West to hold the price of oil down.
All that was said.
I'm not saying nothing that wasn't on the news,
the regular Channel 2, Channel 4 news.
Early on they reported all this as it was happening,
but then he invaded Kuwait in order to do that.
Once that was done, the things that sound reasonable to me,
because there are a lot of problems in the world.
I know Greece wants the return of their artifacts that were stolen in the 18th century.
Nigeria wants the artifacts that were stolen from them.
I'm talking about archaeological artifacts in the British Museum.
The Australians, the Aborigines, the Indians want the return of the bones of their ancestors.
We have problems here with America.
Indians have to be resolved.
Initially when that approach could have been taken,
I thought it would have been a kickoff to a large range of discussions
to come to somehow some sort of world that we all can live with,
some sort of kind of gentler world maybe,
rather than this kind of belligerent type of attitude
that we're going to deal with Iraq, Kuwait in a narrow focus,
not recognizing the past 150 years of history that's gone on in the area,
and the offer to say let's just open it up
and let's talk about all the UN resolutions
and let's see if we have 300,000 or 400,000 troops over there.
They could be used to take over a lot of territories that have been occupied
and say until we can resolve this, the UN will control the West Bank.
I know a lot of Israelis might get upset about that,
but yes, let's get the whole region on the table.
And if we can do that, then maybe we can get South Africa on the table.
Maybe we can get a lot of things on the table
and maybe we can finally get to some sort of planet that will work.
But this is a totally bad sign to me
that this new world order that is being talked about
is really a world conquest of some type.
And I think that the major push behind it is basically money,
and that's why this would never have happened
on behalf of the moneyless people of South Africa.
We're not ignorant people.
I mean, we know these things.
The country isn't run by fools.
It's just that their objectives may not be aligned
with what I hope they would have been.
I'm sure they're aware of...
We know, we learned from World War II.
We rebuilt Europe after World War II,
because it was said even then
that World War II was a result of the repression
imposed upon the defeated countries of World War I.
They knew this. It was written in history books.
They said, well, rather than let people suffer
and another Hitler rise, they will alleviate the suffering.
So we know that these things...
We understand these things.
This is not new knowledge.
We can function as more intelligent people,
but it just seems that as a whole,
we seem to be operating with the combined intelligence
of a worm or something out there.
Well, sometimes the intelligence of a worm
is convenient to people that want to get their way.
Exactly.
And that's why you see people saying,
we don't want a debate.
We don't want to have this brought up in Congress
because it's going to bog things down.
It's going to send the wrong signals.
To me, I have no vested interest in anything over there.
I have no fear of a debate.
I have no fear that if we have enough strength
that if it's totally against our interests as a nation,
well, okay, we don't have to really go for it.
But let's at least...
We don't have to kill 300,000, 400,000 people, neither.
Exactly.
Thanks very much for calling, sir.
Okay. Good night.
Good night.
Our number is 212-279-3400.
And please call in and speak out
because as that last gentleman said,
hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake here.
And not just American lives.
Iraqi lives too.
They count.
Lives of all kinds count.
I was connected to an Iraqi operator
and I was nice to her too and not sarcastic.
And you could hear, you know, in the background,
you could hear other operators, other Iraqi operators,
and you heard laughing and giggling and things like that.
And you realize, you know, technology is different,
but, you know, people think in a similar way
and they laugh and they cry
and they do all kinds of human things because they're human.
And it's so easy to think of them as not being human.
One thing that I think technology is very capable of
at this particular stage
is conveying the humanity of a foreign land,
the humanity of a war.
If there's anything that I think is good
about the way there's been coverage,
it's seeing the actual faces,
seeing the names of the people who are over there
and allowing us to realize that these are people.
It's not just a monolithic force.
They're individuals, you know,
and they have their own particular way of looking at things
and they don't all look at things in the same way.
From a military point of view,
I guess that's not a good way to present yourself,
but we're not in the military, are we?
Good morning.
Yes.
I just have a question.
I ask so many people and no one can answer.
Yeah?
Is Kuwait a city or a country?
Well, Kuwait is actually...
Kuwait is a country and Kuwait City is the capital of that country.
It's a very small country.
Kuwait, I don't believe, is the only city.
Like New York, New York?
Now, like, we say New York, New York.
Is it like Kuwait, Kuwait?
Do you know what I mean?
Pretty much, except Kuwait is a lot smaller than that.
But it is a country.
It is a country, yes.
And a city, sort of.
Of course, it's not a country right now.
If you talk to Saddam Hussein, but in the eyes of the world,
it is a country, yes.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Does that answer your question?
Yes, it does.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
Well, she waited a long time to ask that question
because she was all the way down on the bottom there.
But, yes, Kuwait is, depending on who you talk to,
it's either a country or a province of Iraq.
It's just about 1 o'clock.
We have Bob Fast coming in in half an hour.
And we'll be taking some more phone calls
right after this public service announcement.
From my favorite bunch of people,
The Clash, 1982, I believe.
Takes you back, but, boy, it still makes sense.
Takes you back, but, boy, it still makes sense.
You must not relent
What are the neighbors and the publins involved?
What are they saying in the public bazaar?
We're tired of the tune
You must not relent
At every stroke of the bell in the tower there goes
Another boy from another side
The bulletins that steady come in say those
Familiar words at the top of the hour
The jammy
Herbal words continue to come
With bronchitis of government
Hear those guns tapper, parole on the throne
No one mentions the neighboring war
No one knows what they're fighting for
We're tired of the tune
You must not relent
There's a different kind of chemical system
Two dobs and flushes
Keeps the water crystal clear
Keeps the bowls smartly clean continuously
For about four months
No rinses, no sprays, no stains
Just put the container in your tank and forget it
Every time you flush the Korean crystals
Dissolve away rust and minerals
No rinses, no sprays, no stains appear
Flushing, sure, be flushing
The general bow to the government
We're tired of the tune
You must not relent
We're tired of the tune
We're tired of the tune
Got it on the surf and we think it's sure
Got it on the surf and we know that it ain't no
Got it on the surf for it's one of a kind
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Everybody wants to rule the world
It must be something we get from birth
The truth is we never learn
A satellite will make space burn
We've been told to keep the strangers out
We don't like them starting to hang up now
We don't like them over town
Across the world we're gonna blow them down
Got it on the surf and we think it's sure
Got it on the surf and we know that it ain't no
Got it on the surf for it's one of a kind
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
They know this superpowers must be over
So many armies come to free the earth
So soon the rocket will blow over
The Kurds jumping on their rope to go
There's one way street and a one horse town
One way people starting to flag around
You can laugh and put them down
There's one way people gonna mow us down
Got it on the surf and we think it's sure
Got it on the surf and we know that it ain't no
Got it on the surf for it's one of a kind
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Got it on the surf and we think it's sure
Got it on the surf and we know that it ain't no
Got it on the surf for it's one of a kind
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
Charlie's gonna be a Napalm star
You can laugh, put them down, those one-way people are gonna mow you down.
That's the clash with Charlie Don't Surf off the Sandinista triple album set.
Still a classic in my view, and there's one great quote that goes not only for that song
but for the entire album, I think.
It's this, so many armies can't free the world, how can they?
How can so much military might, military madness poised on the edge of complete and utter annihilation,
how can it prove to be freedom for anybody?
Even us.
Well, our number is 212-279-3400, we're taking phone calls, and again let me repeat the plea,
if anybody out there has a particular phone number over there in Saudi Arabia of a military
base or something like that, we'd sure like to speak to somebody.
It's hard to get through though, it really is, and we're calling in the middle of their
morning, I guess they're doing their jumping jacks or whatever it is they do at this time
of day, and probably talking on the phone quite a bit too, obviously, as we've been
trying to get through and getting a busy signal.
I guess next time we'll try calling them in the middle of the night and waking them up,
that probably will be more successful for us.
Well, let's give it another try, let's give it one more try to actually get through to
a military base in Saudi Arabia.
Let's get an operator.
OK, it hung up on us again, it's a technical problem we have here.
Operator?
Yes, hi.
Is this the operator?
Yes.
OK, I need long distance please.
Thank you.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
Thank you.
I'm sarcastic to the recording, that's no question.
AT&T, how can we help you?
Yes, hi.
We're having a great deal of difficulty getting through to Saudi Arabia, I was wondering if
you might be able to help us.
What number are you trying to reach?
I'm trying to reach country code 966, city code 3, and the number is 899-1119.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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