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And a good hello to everybody over on YouTube, as we have our first edition of Overtime in

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a long time.

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I think the last one we did was sometime in March.

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Well, we've been doing a lot, okay?

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We've been really, really busy traveling and things like that.

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Kyle, did you make it okay?

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Hi.

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Okay, you're in the same room as me, so yeah, I imagine you did.

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Rob, Gila, how are you guys doing?

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Did you make it?

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We are well, and we sound good on YouTube.

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Okay, sounds good.

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And Alex, I see you as well.

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I am here, only temporarily, though.

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I'll hang out for a few minutes, say hello to some people, and then I've got to jump,

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unfortunately.

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Okay, I understand.

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Yeah, you know, we could do like a five-hour show with all the things that we...

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I have so many things to talk about, and we wound up talking about a couple of them because

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we just get into these conversations, which are always fascinating.

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But I did do a little bit more research on the story of the wallpaper guy from Germany.

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Apparently, this guy, Bohm, B-O-H-M-E, previously tried to sue the granddaughter in the courts

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in Dusseldorf and Stuttgart in Germany, but he was unsuccessful in his legal attempts

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there.

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The regional court and higher regional court of Dusseldorf ruled that Bohm had implicitly

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granted a license by selling the wallpaper on the one hand, and that his lawsuits were

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an abuse of rights on the other.

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Wow.

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Does that happen often, Alex, when you file a lawsuit and then the judge says that your

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lawsuit is an abuse of rights?

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Because that's got to hurt.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But it's very much in tune with the principle that I had mentioned before, that, you know,

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this is essentially a trifle, right?

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You know, there really aren't damages here.

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This guy's being an idiot, and he got called out for it.

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I hope he doesn't sue you for saying that.

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No.

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Well, if he does, I mean, I guess it would be on the basis of defamation.

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The defense to defamation is the truth.

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So I just have to prove that he's an idiot.

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Okay.

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Well, that shouldn't take too long.

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Well, I don't mean to get myself into this by saying that.

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Anyway, so you might wonder if his lawsuit was seen as an abuse of rights.

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How is he still suing?

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Well, while other German courts have rejected his argument, what he's doing now is hoping

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for a victory when his copyright case is heard in Cologne Region Court on June 27th.

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He previously won a similar copyright case regarding an image with his photo-based wallpaper

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at Cologne Regional Court last year.

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That lawsuit was also against a landlady of a vacation apartment.

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Now, when it comes to copyright, the Cologne Regional Court says that a strict duty of

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care applies and that anyone who makes use of other people's photographs by publishing

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them on their website must ensure that this is done with the permission of the authorized

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person.

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No.

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No, I'm sorry.

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That's crap.

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You're in your own damn house.

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You're taking a picture of your wall.

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How much more personal can you possibly get?

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And to say that's copyright infringement, Alex, help me out here.

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This is insane, right?

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This is not where the legal world is going, is it?

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Well, I'm not an expert in German law, but I would imagine that under German legal principles,

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they would have very similar types of ideals that we would have with respect to copyright.

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And this seems like it might come into the ... or rather, the principle of first sale

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might come into play here, namely that when you buy that particular wallpaper, even though

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it's comprised of other photos, you have the right to do with that instance of those photos

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what you will.

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You can deface them.

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You can take pictures of them.

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It's not as if the person would be distributing them or printing them for some kind of commercial

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purpose.

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That, I think, would squarely violate the copyright rights of the original photographer

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of that particular work if they were replicating the work.

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Right.

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A commercial purpose involving the work, not a commercial purpose involving renting out

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the room.

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And solely the work, too.

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I think that's what's really important here, is that his work is not isolated by itself

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in the photographs.

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It's part of their house, as you mentioned, Emmanuel.

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So it's just one of many items in the house.

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Everything that you create can have a copyright to it.

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If you create source code, even though you don't file in the U.S. Copyright Office, you

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automatically have a copyright to that particular source code, so long as it's unique.

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And you created it.

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So this whole idea of running around the world and forum shopping and looking for photographs

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with your copyrighted items in it, if this is a legal principle that will stand on its

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own, it will create absolute havoc and destroy our ability to share and distribute images

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online.

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It would work to such absurdity that I think this guy, the case has to be dismissed.

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Rob Gila, you both have your hands up, so fight amongst yourselves.

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Well, this is what I was thinking at the end of our over-the-air show, is are we sure this

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is really the guy?

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And I'm not even joking.

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Do we know that this is actually what's-his-bucket Bohm, and it's not somebody pretending to

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be him who's just running around looking for his stuff?

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Or is Bohm's career so sad now that he's only making a living off of suing people like the

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Westboro Baptist Church?

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Are you attacking him or defending him?

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I can't figure it out.

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I'm not 100% sure myself, but yesterday we were talking about, Rob and I were talking

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about Terry Jax.

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You remember Terry Jax?

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Terry Jax, yeah.

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He did, what was the song he did?

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Seasons in the Sun.

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Seasons in the Sun.

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Right.

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I don't know the thing about Terry Jax.

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No.

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Okay, this is 100% true.

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Terry Jax, Seasons in the Sun, what, 1972-ish?

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We had joy, we had fun, we had Seasons in the Sun, but the hills that we climbed were

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just something in my mind.

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Seasons out of time.

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Whatever, yeah.

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It was a cool song.

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And it's an incredibly, it's a pretty song, it's incredibly depressing, but Terry Jax,

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it was a big hit in like, what, 72?

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And he toured and did all that stuff until about 75, and then he just vanished.

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And then a few years later, some dude turned up and said, hey, I'm Terry Jax.

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And he started giving concerts and giving interviews and going on tour, claiming he

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was Terry Jax.

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The world believed him because they didn't know any better.

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And then he got sick of it, turned himself in to the real Terry Jax, and everybody thought

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it was over.

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But then a few years later, he started doing it again.

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And this time he was like, getting hotel rooms and not paying for them and giving bad concerts

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and not showing up.

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And the real Terry Jax was like, dude, you're destroying my name.

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I need you to stop again.

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So I'm wondering if what's-his-face Boehm is really doing this, or like it's a Terry

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Jax situation.

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Well, this guy went to court and won.

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So that takes a lot of balls if you're going to impersonate somebody and go to court in

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their name and win and then try it again.

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I don't know.

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But I'm fascinated by the Terry Jax story now.

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I got to look into that because, boy, how do you get away with that at all?

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I mean, don't the fans know that that's not the guy that sang the song?

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It was the 70s and the 80s.

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It was about 10 years later.

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He might have looked different, but it had been about 10 years later.

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And this was, you know, pre-internet, so nobody knew.

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Wow.

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OK.

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Yeah, Rob, go ahead.

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Yeah, I can only speak about this from the perspective of an artist.

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I am an artist.

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I have, you know, sold my work.

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I have given away my work.

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I have work on walls that are not mine.

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And sometimes I get I get a photo of my work on one of those walls.

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And that makes me so freaking happy.

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How is this guy angered or believes he is owed more by by somebody who purchased a bit

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of his work?

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But I'm guessing didn't accept any outlandish terms of service before they got this wallpaper

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and used it and then wanted to show off their pretty room.

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But it doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter if if somebody purchased your art legitimately, if they stole your

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art, if they, you know, did something, they copied it themselves and they put it on the

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wall and they took a picture of it.

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That's not the crime.

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The crime is the stealing part of it.

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That's that's what you get them for.

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But not for taking a picture of something in somebody's house.

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I don't care if it's a Mona Lisa or whatever.

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It's it's it's your house or, you know, a building outside.

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There are people who try to say this building is protected.

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It's a landmark.

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You can't take can't take a picture of it.

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That's ridiculous.

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Of course you can.

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I'm sorry for that.

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Go ahead.

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No, there if you take a picture from my point of view where I'm sitting right now at my

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computer desk, there are posters on the wall that I didn't design, but I bought.

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There's artwork on the wall from artists I like that I either bought or was given.

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There are some there are little figurines sculpted.

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There are action figures.

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There's desk toys, all this stuff, comic books, you know, stuff that I did not create.

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But that if I take a picture of my room, that's a picture of my room that is not hurting the

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commercial value of any of the junk I happen to be surrounded by.

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Wow.

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Kyle, do you have something?

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I think, I think it's a reach for sure.

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Like the, the thing that she's doing commercially is in the realm of a space to rent.

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And the, the photograph she took is of decor that I think as was mentioned here, all great

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points, by the way, the, the, is an assemblage of multiple aspects of the space and the physical

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property itself.

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So that's the commercial sell of which this wall covering is a part.

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And I think that that's pretty, that's a pretty good argument.

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It's not that she is selling copies of wallpaper that has this man's art.

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So I think that would be a competitive like violation of his, his product.

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Like you're competing with intellectual property that is simply, that is essentially his work,

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which anybody would, would view that way.

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And I think that that's probably like the healthiest view.

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I understand the competitiveness being someone that's involved in the visual arts and takes

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photos myself, you know, the, the temptation is there to be so guarded.

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And there are like Alex said, firms that will broker and otherwise manage the licensing

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of your art and chase down with well-resourced legal teams and departments.

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I even applied for a position one time.

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I didn't really realize what it was at the time, but yeah, there's jobs, people's entire

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tasks and probably what we've seen more of now, because that was many years ago, is the

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automation of it where these letters just appear.

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So we've covered this on our cover of all things, but there's so many people that are

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being affected by the automated nature of this.

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Well, you're talking about Splotchgate where we got a letter because random paint splotches

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were identified by some computer as part of some piece of art.

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And even the people running the company that sent that agreed it was ridiculous and immediately

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withdrew it as soon as we started complaining about it.

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But I should point out that did not happen because of the cover that went out to newsstands.

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It happened when the cover showed up on our store on the internet and some computer came

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out and crawled and found it that way.

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And just, it became just another job in its tasks.

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And we're buying into that world of litigiousness, if that's the right word, that just define

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our existence.

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It's absurd to me that somebody has to live in fear if they're making a documentary and

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somebody drives by and you hear a snippet of a song that's playing through their stereo

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as they drive by and they've got to go and edit that out.

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That's insane.

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What exactly are you protecting?

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You think somebody is going to go out there and say, hey, here's a song.

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I'm going to grab four seconds of it and wait for another car to come by 10 seconds later

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in the song and eventually I'll piece it together and I'll get this 99 cent song for

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free.

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I mean, what is the logic?

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It makes absolutely no sense.

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But what it does is it cripples creativity, makes us all paranoid, looking over our shoulders.

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Look, we're on YouTube right now, there's an image of the 2600 van right there.

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And that image of the 2600 van is a van that's made to look like a phone company van of old.

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Now imagine the phone company was still around using that emblem, those colors.

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They could say, you guys aren't allowed to do that.

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You guys aren't allowed to probably, A, have a van that has that paint job, but also you

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can't take a picture of that and display it on the Internet.

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00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:46,120
I mean, I think we'd all be seeing red to actually be confronted with some idiocy like

240
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,120
that.

241
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:53,280
But that, it's becoming the norm more and more where an image or a sound or even a thought

242
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,480
is copyrighted and protected.

243
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,240
Go ahead, Rob.

244
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,200
I think a good analogy would be if Ford, who made the van in the first place, decided to

245
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,200
sue you for showing.

246
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,200
Actually, it was Dodge.

247
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,200
It was a Dodge.

248
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,200
Dodge.

249
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,200
OK, yeah.

250
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,040
So Dodge, who manufactured the van in the first place and owned the design to that van,

251
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,600
then sued you for publishing a photo of it, even though you bought it because it's a van

252
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,720
and it happens to be that shape.

253
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,840
And as it happens, Ford did sue us for a different reason.

254
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:26,960
Worth also noting, it doesn't get to these levels of absurdity if there is not a legal

255
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,920
market for these sort of situations.

256
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:40,160
And I think this story is a symptom of a sort of intellectual property market that may be

257
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:46,480
a bit flawed right now and copyright as well.

258
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:58,120
The gain by pursuing one particular van, the legal cost and even for their corporation,

259
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:06,200
which probably has ample resources, to come after that, the gain to go after our van or

260
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:12,960
an individual just hosting an image of an apartment, it's fraught.

261
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:20,480
So a corporation, it's a lot more than the cost of actually pursuing it.

262
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:27,640
The cost to do it is a lot more than what would be to gained to collect from that person

263
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,880
that you are grieving or you're seeking legal grievance with.

264
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,480
If the cost comes down, but I think that's what's happening.

265
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,480
The cost is coming down.

266
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,480
Well, with the automation.

267
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,480
Things are automated.

268
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:39,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

269
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:46,920
And that may be a part of what is flawed in this copyright system, because we're not living

270
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:53,200
in a world where we come from a time when this didn't exist.

271
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:54,640
These things are emerging.

272
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,840
And I think our experience with that is like, we're tempted.

273
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:05,800
And I heard that a lot in the conversation, like the exclamation of what world do we live

274
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,240
in where we would want this?

275
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:17,080
Well, the people pursuing these kinds of things see a value in it if they can cast a wide

276
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:25,280
enough or a large enough net by using the tools and information that is available of

277
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,280
this day.

278
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,920
So that's kind of what we're up against.

279
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,640
So you have to kind of calibrate your expectations.

280
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,760
And I think that's why people that are growing up with this might not really see the implication

281
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,800
because it's sort of invisible or we kind of accept it and self-censor along the way

282
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,800
or don't want to react to it.

283
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,080
I think what you just said is meaningful in the way that we come from a different time.

284
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,040
I think we need to preface a lot of conversations with we're from a different century because

285
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,040
we are.

286
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,040
Go ahead, Gayla.

287
00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,240
Well, OK, now I have another theory as to why this is happening.

288
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:10,000
Do we think that wallpaper guy is trying to rent out his own vacation apartment?

289
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,640
So he's trying to get other people to take down their listings.

290
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:21,240
He's trying to bully people out of putting up this image to get them out of the marketplace.

291
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,840
Twisting yourself into a pretzel, defending him.

292
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,760
I mean, you think it's because he wants he wants to rent out a bed and breakfast.

293
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,320
And this is somehow preventing him from doing that because people might be confused and

294
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,040
see his image on a different wall.

295
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,040
You know what?

296
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,680
No, it's right.

297
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:36,880
He's trying to knock out the competition.

298
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:37,880
I think this guy.

299
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,880
Well, that's the American way she is escalating.

300
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,800
OK, here's the escalation.

301
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,840
If I was this person, I want to get a call.

302
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:46,840
I wanted to call us.

303
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:52,960
I would take I would take the picture that's on the website, use a wallpaper print on demand

304
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:59,640
service to make like a pattern with that picture, then recover the walls with her photo

305
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,440
of the old room with his photo on it so that it's like a pattern in the new space.

306
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,280
Then take a photo of the room with her new wall covering that is a pattern of all the

307
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,960
other older pictures that were on the website and then argue that it's her own work that

308
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,960
is now the wall cover.

309
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,440
I want to see a photo of people urinating on it.

310
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,440
I really do.

311
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,240
That's that's what I think about this.

312
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,080
It's that upsetting.

313
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:31,080
But the funny thing is, I read this story from when I get this from Petapixel.com.

314
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,480
And you see the story there, Kyle, you guys see the story of a chair against the wallpaper.

315
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:37,520
That's not even the wallpaper.

316
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,800
For some reason, they didn't put the image in the front of the story.

317
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:41,800
Right.

318
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:42,800
That doesn't look like a photo.

319
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:43,800
No, it shows the stock image.

320
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,840
For some reason, they didn't dare put the actual wallpaper in the story until you go

321
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:49,840
a couple of pages in.

322
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,760
And then it just looks like a bunch of stones on top of each other.

323
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,360
It's like stacked rocks.

324
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:58,360
And what?

325
00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:59,360
He took a picture of stacked rocks.

326
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:00,920
How about the person who stacked the rocks?

327
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,880
Don't they have some say in this?

328
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,680
Because somebody did that.

329
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,040
Yeah, that doesn't look natural.

330
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,240
That looks like a very large wall.

331
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,240
And it's just a texture.

332
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,240
Wow.

333
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:13,240
Oh, my God.

334
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,440
Alice, you look like Mr. Robot.

335
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,520
It suddenly appeared in a hoodie and I wasn't expecting that.

336
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,200
Wow.

337
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,200
Do we even know that's Alex?

338
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:23,200
Yeah.

339
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,200
It's a little cold here.

340
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,200
Are you in Pennsylvania?

341
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,080
I'm in Pennsylvania at the moment.

342
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:33,120
There's massive thunderstorms and lightning and the temperature has dropped considerably.

343
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,760
You know, we got hit by lightning last week.

344
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:44,040
And it's funny because the cable TV went out and the cable company said, no, you don't

345
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,040
have an outage.

346
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,320
Even though everybody in the neighborhood was out, they refused to believe it.

347
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:55,000
I had to sit through 10 minutes of talking to an automated response system that would

348
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,080
say, what is the problem?

349
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,600
You can only answer a certain way.

350
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,720
I said, the cable is out.

351
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,120
We suggest that you reboot your cable system.

352
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:05,760
Do that by unplugging it.

353
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,760
There's no way.

354
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,760
I can't say representative.

355
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,080
A screaming representative at the top of my lungs wasn't doing anything.

356
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,840
They said, unplug it now.

357
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,360
I will wait six minutes while it boots back up.

358
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:16,380
I did that already, you moron.

359
00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:20,060
Now I have to wait, you know, six minutes before I can even get to a human.

360
00:20:20,060 --> 00:20:22,700
And by the way, the human didn't believe me either.

361
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:26,420
I had to convince them that there actually was an outage.

362
00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:29,740
And two hours later on the outage map, I was so happy.

363
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:31,580
I saw a little dot show up.

364
00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:33,700
That was the outage I reported.

365
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:36,220
And sure enough, they figured it out and eventually fixed it.

366
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:40,380
But boy, what they put you through these days, it's just unreal.

367
00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:43,420
What happened to the days where you could call somebody and say, hey, it's a problem.

368
00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:45,100
You might want to look into it.

369
00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:47,060
Yeah, those are gone.

370
00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:49,140
Those are those those days are gone.

371
00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:53,580
But while we're on the subject of personal appearances, I wonder if that lightning strike

372
00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:59,780
had anything to do with the lack of facial hair of both you and Kyle these days.

373
00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:03,300
I just noticed you guys are looking pretty clean shaven.

374
00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:07,660
Well, you don't know what we look like normally, because what you see usually and people don't

375
00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:13,740
see this, you see, you know how when when you pull off a job and you replace the tape

376
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:17,140
in the surveillance cameras with old footage so that people are fooled.

377
00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:18,140
It's a filter.

378
00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:19,220
Yeah, that's what you've been seeing.

379
00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:20,220
This is a film.

380
00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:21,220
Is that right?

381
00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:22,220
It is.

382
00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:23,220
Yeah.

383
00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:24,220
Yeah.

384
00:21:24,220 --> 00:21:25,220
Yeah.

385
00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:26,220
It's amazing.

386
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:27,220
I felt I felt like I was like, I'm like, I'm looking back in time here or something.

387
00:21:27,220 --> 00:21:32,380
I was wondering why I just felt a certain amount of disquietude during this whole show.

388
00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:34,660
Well, we're not going to discuss your face.

389
00:21:34,660 --> 00:21:35,660
Yeah.

390
00:21:35,660 --> 00:21:36,660
Because.

391
00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:37,660
Yeah.

392
00:21:37,660 --> 00:21:38,660
Well, I've got a face for radio.

393
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:41,140
Well, you said it, not me.

394
00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:42,740
But we have a phone for radio.

395
00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:45,340
Let's give out the phone number because we haven't heard from our listeners in forever.

396
00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:46,340
802-321-4225.

397
00:21:46,340 --> 00:21:51,940
Hey, I remember the phone number after all this time, 802-321-HACK.

398
00:21:51,940 --> 00:21:57,100
If anybody is out there and wants to call us and say hi or have a question or a comment.

399
00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:58,660
And Gila, you have a question or a comment.

400
00:21:58,660 --> 00:21:59,660
Go ahead.

401
00:21:59,660 --> 00:22:01,060
I do, but it's not mine.

402
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:07,380
So first of all, it's we're like 20 minutes in and I have not said hello and welcome back

403
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:11,500
to the 39 people who are with us on YouTube right now.

404
00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:14,300
I'm super glad to have you all here.

405
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:17,660
We have a comment.

406
00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:21,300
Ray Coon says, why does Emmanuel still have cable TV?

407
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:22,300
There's so many alternatives.

408
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:23,300
Oh, my God.

409
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:24,300
Here we go again.

410
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:25,300
Here we go again.

411
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:28,620
It's the whole the whole grandpa thing is you still have cable TV?

412
00:22:28,620 --> 00:22:29,620
Don't respond.

413
00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:30,620
Yeah.

414
00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:31,620
You know what?

415
00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:32,620
I still have all kinds of things.

416
00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:33,620
I have a non electric razor, too.

417
00:22:33,620 --> 00:22:35,380
We have token ring.

418
00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:41,260
Boy, judging for what kind of technology I should have, whatever I want to be able to

419
00:22:42,020 --> 00:22:43,020
have.

420
00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:46,100
And if I'm paying for it, you know, it's it should work.

421
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:49,140
And if I'm not paying for it, it should work, too, because, you know, people never used

422
00:22:49,140 --> 00:22:51,060
to pay for TV.

423
00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:52,060
I'm from a different century.

424
00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:53,060
I know these things.

425
00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:56,660
I'm going to push the audio button just to see what happens.

426
00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:57,660
The what button?

427
00:22:57,660 --> 00:22:58,660
I'm doing it.

428
00:22:58,660 --> 00:22:59,660
Oh, OK.

429
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:00,660
You know what?

430
00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:01,660
It's I don't even.

431
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:10,100
I don't even know if this existed when checking connection.

432
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:11,660
It's going to be a dialogue.

433
00:23:11,660 --> 00:23:12,660
What happened?

434
00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:13,660
Oh, OK.

435
00:23:13,660 --> 00:23:14,660
Unfortunately.

436
00:23:14,660 --> 00:23:15,660
Is she OK?

437
00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:22,380
OK, so this this pulled up a I guess an app store entry for the app, which is not on this

438
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:30,860
TV and with an apology that says, unfortunately, I can't look and talk at the same time.

439
00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:36,220
It says, unfortunately, audio has shut down and is no longer available on your Roku device.

440
00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:37,420
We're sad to see them go.

441
00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:40,900
Instead, we have more than 100 other streaming music services for you.

442
00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:44,680
Just go to streaming channels on your home screen and select the music category.

443
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,340
But that's the whole reason you got Roku in the first place.

444
00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:50,180
Everything is ruined now.

445
00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:53,780
And that's also the only thing one of the biggest buttons on this remote now does.

446
00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:54,780
Yeah.

447
00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:55,780
What about the button?

448
00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:58,420
Well, now it's just wasted real estate on your remote.

449
00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:03,180
You know what Alex was saying before about this being an advertisement in your house?

450
00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:08,540
We should start billing them for advertising in our homes when we had no say in that.

451
00:24:08,540 --> 00:24:09,540
I agree.

452
00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:10,540
Yeah.

453
00:24:10,540 --> 00:24:11,540
You want to be litigious.

454
00:24:11,540 --> 00:24:12,540
We can do that, too.

455
00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:13,540
Do we have a phone call?

456
00:24:13,540 --> 00:24:17,420
They're certainly billing the advertisers for the opportunity to advertise to us.

457
00:24:17,420 --> 00:24:18,420
Yeah.

458
00:24:18,420 --> 00:24:19,420
We can litige.

459
00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:21,100
We can litige with the best of them.

460
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:23,180
Kyle, do we have a call?

461
00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:24,180
Yo, no say.

462
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:25,180
Yes.

463
00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:26,180
I don't know what that means.

464
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:27,180
Is that yes or no?

465
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:28,180
We have a call.

466
00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:29,180
You literally said yes and no at the same time.

467
00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:30,180
Good evening.

468
00:24:30,180 --> 00:24:31,180
You're on off the hook.

469
00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:32,180
Overtime.

470
00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:34,180
Hola.

471
00:24:34,180 --> 00:24:35,180
It's Johnny Fusion.

472
00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:36,180
Hey.

473
00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:37,180
How you doing?

474
00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:38,180
Johnny Fusion from West Coast, right?

475
00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:39,180
Yeah.

476
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:40,180
Bay Area.

477
00:24:40,180 --> 00:24:41,180
Bay Area.

478
00:24:41,180 --> 00:24:42,180
Cool.

479
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:43,180
What's on your mind?

480
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:44,180
Hola.

481
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:45,180
Hey.

482
00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:46,180
How's it going, everyone?

483
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:47,180
Long time.

484
00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:57,020
So I was thinking about the insidious use of copyright and you mentioned the example

485
00:24:57,020 --> 00:25:04,220
of filming a documentary and a car goes by with, you know, playing music.

486
00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:13,340
Something that was starting to happen in L.A. that the LAPD was doing was they would, when

487
00:25:13,340 --> 00:25:17,460
they were having interactions with the public, they would get on their phones and start playing

488
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:25,420
Disney music because when people were videoing them, they figured Disney's the most litigious

489
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:28,820
company out there when it comes to copyright.

490
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:29,820
Yeah.

491
00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:30,820
I heard that.

492
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:31,820
I heard that story.

493
00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:32,820
I heard that story.

494
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:35,820
It was really both infuriating and clever at the same time.

495
00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:36,820
Right.

496
00:25:36,820 --> 00:25:45,500
I mean, yeah, but that's what I thought of was one of the most insidious uses of using

497
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:52,220
these copyright bots against the people, you know, because it's the First Amendment right

498
00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:59,660
to keep the film in public and especially people that are public employees like the

499
00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:03,740
police and to keep them accountable.

500
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:07,700
And it was a way of trying to skip accountability.

501
00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:08,700
Yeah.

502
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:16,540
That's how did that turn out, you know?

503
00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:18,740
I think it was like a fad.

504
00:26:18,740 --> 00:26:26,660
And Disney, like these videos would be posted to YouTube, but Disney had just started giving

505
00:26:26,660 --> 00:26:29,580
them a pass on the copyright.

506
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:30,580
Wow.

507
00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:34,220
OK, that's something.

508
00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:38,020
Or it was ruled fair use or something like that, you know.

509
00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:39,540
It shouldn't have to get to that stage, though.

510
00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:43,220
It shouldn't have to, you know, go into the courts or be dependent on a huge corporation

511
00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:44,660
to grant permission.

512
00:26:44,660 --> 00:26:49,500
You know, it's just if you're recording something in normal life, you should be able to do that

513
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:50,980
like you always have been.

514
00:26:50,980 --> 00:26:51,980
Yeah.

515
00:26:51,980 --> 00:26:58,260
I mean, the famous case was like it was like a little girl's birthday party and a Prince

516
00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:06,060
song comes on and Prince had them take down the video because Prince doesn't want any

517
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:09,660
of his music on YouTube or he did when he was alive.

518
00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:13,580
It's on YouTube now because the state says, yeah, sure, why not?

519
00:27:13,580 --> 00:27:18,220
But when Prince was alive, he didn't want any of his music on YouTube.

520
00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:25,740
OK, I mean, you know, there are there are limitations to the control you can have over

521
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:26,740
certain things.

522
00:27:26,740 --> 00:27:30,940
And I certainly think that somebody could say, I don't want my music to appear on Amazon.

523
00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:33,860
I don't want music to appear on YouTube.

524
00:27:33,860 --> 00:27:35,980
And you know, they can they can take that down.

525
00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:41,540
But if something is playing in the background, that's that's not that's not a duplication

526
00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:42,740
of your work.

527
00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:46,860
That's just something in the background, like, you know, a sunset or something.

528
00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:49,660
And if you're alive on this planet, that could happen to you.

529
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:50,660
You could wind up.

530
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:57,220
You can't get the permission of everybody in a crowd scene to have their faces displayed.

531
00:27:57,220 --> 00:28:01,000
I know there are people who think you have to and they go and they blur out the faces

532
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,740
of all the people they couldn't get clearance from.

533
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:08,700
But for God's sake, you know, that that famous photo of I think it was Coney Island in the

534
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:13,580
1940s, 1950s, where the beach is just crowded with all these people.

535
00:28:13,580 --> 00:28:16,860
Can you imagine if they had to go around every single person and ask for permission?

536
00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:18,020
You would not have that photo.

537
00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:20,060
And it's it's it's it's magic.

538
00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:27,460
Well, yeah, the the part of that that you have to realize is it's it's public spaces

539
00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:29,780
that is totally legal.

540
00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:36,580
And if you're in public, you do not have the ability to protect yourself in the way that

541
00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:44,180
you would on private property or under the policies of of your own residence and the

542
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:46,660
expectations there.

543
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:52,300
So I think like Coney Island is a public space as public as any.

544
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:53,300
Oh, yeah.

545
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:54,300
I don't think it's like private property.

546
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:55,940
It's pretty damn public on the boardwalk.

547
00:28:55,940 --> 00:29:01,860
So if you're photographing there, even if it's commercial, I think you don't necessarily

548
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:06,300
need people's permission, especially like you're talking about for a crowd scene.

549
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:13,780
You may have like policies, especially for a feature length film or a production of that

550
00:29:13,780 --> 00:29:14,780
scale.

551
00:29:14,780 --> 00:29:21,700
But if you're doing something independently, that would be like that would be something

552
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:29,300
I think that you may not have to adhere to the same policies that they have in place

553
00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:35,060
where like a large film that's doing location shooting would have to post things at the

554
00:29:35,060 --> 00:29:40,020
very least so that public entering an area where filming is in progress has at least

555
00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:45,340
the awareness that they could be captured on film and the expectation is that they relinquish

556
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:47,940
their rights in that moment.

557
00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:53,260
But I think like you say, if it's in public, you just by default don't have those rights.

558
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:56,380
Let's say, though, that on the street, I'm walking down Coney Island.

559
00:29:56,380 --> 00:30:01,100
But this time I'm recording and somebody is playing a Prince song and Prince is still

560
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:03,500
alive and he doesn't want his music anywhere.

561
00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:05,420
I don't think he has a say at that point.

562
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:11,020
I really don't because it's being played in public and I'm not there recording his music.

563
00:30:11,020 --> 00:30:14,260
I'm there recording the beach and all the people around and his music just happens to

564
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:15,780
be in the background.

565
00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:21,540
And I don't think you can control what people record or share when it's in a public space.

566
00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:23,260
I just don't think that's right.

567
00:30:23,260 --> 00:30:25,900
Just like I don't think you have to blur out license plates.

568
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,060
I know Google Street View does that.

569
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:29,060
I don't think that's necessary.

570
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:30,740
I think if it's there, it's there.

571
00:30:30,740 --> 00:30:32,500
If you see people, they're there as well.

572
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:36,060
I know there's reasons to not want to have people there and that's fine.

573
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:39,260
But legally, I don't think it's something that should be required.

574
00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:42,100
Yeah, I think you're right.

575
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:47,800
Maybe I'm even granting too much when I'm talking about different scales of production

576
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,480
because the means to do a lot of this is so pervasive.

577
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,940
Any telephone can begin recording video.

578
00:30:57,940 --> 00:31:06,300
The more I'm thinking about the scenario you're talking about, it is a new work and

579
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:12,900
there should be protection for what natural sound there is.

580
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:20,660
YouTube may have their own policy or their own strictures because they feel it's a liability

581
00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:27,840
to their model because they're distributing so much content with an ad model.

582
00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:35,880
But someone producing something on their own or even a small production or student or documentary

583
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:42,140
or just a private individual, they're bumping up against that on the distribution side.

584
00:31:42,140 --> 00:31:48,080
But to produce it, I think you do have any right and especially in public spaces to create

585
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,800
what is new content.

586
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,240
It isn't that original Prince recording.

587
00:31:52,240 --> 00:32:04,440
It is an entire scene visually in time with that as one element of the natural sound.

588
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:10,560
These claims like to have the idea that the estate or that an artist would go after an

589
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:21,700
independent or even a feature length production, it does change when you get into box office

590
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:27,100
sales and all of that because they have to clear things and do all this sort of due diligence

591
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:31,540
at that level.

592
00:32:31,540 --> 00:32:44,220
So these issues with YouTube and online services, they're small examples of what those productions

593
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:46,540
go through.

594
00:32:46,540 --> 00:32:52,060
It's mostly done in the cheapest way possible with like threatening automation or just bans

595
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:55,260
on your accounts on whatever platform it is.

596
00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:56,260
I find it interesting.

597
00:32:56,260 --> 00:32:57,660
The natural sound should be natural.

598
00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:01,780
But on YouTube, you can find pretty much any song you're looking for that's posted either

599
00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:06,980
by record companies or just somebody where it doesn't get taken down, it's just there.

600
00:33:06,980 --> 00:33:09,620
And that's fine.

601
00:33:09,620 --> 00:33:12,220
It proves that it's not that big a deal to have the music out there.

602
00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:15,020
Johnny, I'd like to have one more point, then we're going to move on to another phone call.

603
00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:16,020
Go ahead.

604
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:17,500
Yeah.

605
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:24,580
Oh, there is something, though, in Europe, in the EU, under GDPR, your photograph, your

606
00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:32,180
face is considered identifiable information and is protected under the GDPR.

607
00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:41,460
So it's a little bit stricter in Europe for people to publish people's faces.

608
00:33:42,460 --> 00:33:48,140
Yeah, I mean, I'm curious what you would define publish.

609
00:33:48,140 --> 00:33:56,820
And I mean, to publish isn't necessarily to identify them or reveal more about them.

610
00:33:56,820 --> 00:34:04,540
However, the mere act of publishing could widely distribute something that could make

611
00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:10,440
it portable enough for others to use things to identify that individual.

612
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:17,320
So therein is a liability in you distributing more of someone's face like that.

613
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,920
So we don't have that here.

614
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,000
And you do not have your face.

615
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,960
And as I've said in the past, voice, there's zero expectation of that being protected.

616
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:38,960
And I think this is an example of why we need to hash out some kind of privacy, I don't

617
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:48,720
know, framework or policy goal to think about greater protections in that way, while not

618
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:56,480
poisoning the creative marketplace of ideas and new content that's emerging.

619
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,120
John, it was good hearing from you.

620
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,560
You've given us a lot to think about.

621
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,160
I hope you keep writing articles and hear from you again soon.

622
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,840
Okay, I'll get to work.

623
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,840
All right.

624
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,840
Take care.

625
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:17,480
And our phone number, 802-321-4225 for those people who...

626
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,480
That rang fast.

627
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Boy, I didn't think it was possible to ring.

628
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,600
You just hung up the phone a second ago.

629
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Okay, well, I guess the line is going to be engaged for a moment or two.

630
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,240
Are you ready?

631
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:30,240
And good evening.

632
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:31,240
You're on Off The Hook Overtime.

633
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:32,240
Go ahead.

634
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:34,960
Yes, hi, Emmanuel calling from Portugal.

635
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:35,960
You're in Portugal.

636
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,880
Before we get to that, I just want to point out that you weren't number one this time.

637
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:40,880
You're number two.

638
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,880
You were the second caller.

639
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,880
You're losing your touch.

640
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,880
Well, I haven't slept in like almost two days.

641
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,880
Oh, that must be why.

642
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:49,880
Well, because I wanted to take an Airbus 380, which I've never taken.

643
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:50,880
I think it's like the biggest plane, like bigger than the 747.

644
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:51,880
I always wanted to take it.

645
00:35:51,880 --> 00:36:04,880
So I had to go to Germany, like Munich, Germany, New York City.

646
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,800
Yeah, their doors don't pop out, but I think one of them caught fire the other day.

647
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,800
Airbus 380?

648
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:10,800
I'm pretty sure.

649
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:11,800
Really?

650
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:12,800
Yeah, I think so.

651
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,800
But regardless, I'm sure yours was fine.

652
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,800
Oh, yeah, it was.

653
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,960
So you're in Portugal, and you haven't slept for two nights.

654
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,800
They have a lot of fun in that country.

655
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,800
The partying never stops, so don't expect to get any sleep for the next week or so.

656
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:25,800
Well, I'm not going to.

657
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,320
I'm only going to be here for a couple of days, and then I'm going to Italy, Ireland,

658
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,320
and then London.

659
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,760
Okay, well, one of those is a city, and none of them are connected, well, except Ireland

660
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:36,760
and, well, London.

661
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:37,760
Oh, yeah.

662
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,760
Are you taking trains, or are you flying all the way?

663
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,760
No, I'm flying to Italy, and then I'm going to, no, I'm going, yeah, flying, and then

664
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,760
I'm going to go from Italy, fly to Ireland, and then take a ferry to London, I mean to

665
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,760
England, and then take a train to London.

666
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,760
Okay, well, at least you take a train at some point.

667
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,200
And I imagine you might be going through Wales when you cross over on the ferry, right?

668
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,200
I guess.

669
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,200
I mean, I haven't planned it out yet, but I guess.

670
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,200
Well, when you look at the map, make sure to see if you're in Wales, and if you do wind

671
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,200
up in Wales, spend some time there.

672
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,200
Yeah, I do plan on spending time.

673
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,200
Okay.

674
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,200
My question to you is, I registered for Hope, so I'm going to be at the Hope conference

675
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,200
in July.

676
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,200
Cool.

677
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:26,640
Yeah.

678
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,640
My question to you is, you know, Telnet, right?

679
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,640
Like, if I was, is this the way Telnet works?

680
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,640
If I was at, let's say, Harvard, and you were at Stony Brook, and let's say you came to

681
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,640
visit me at Harvard, and you wanted to log on to your Stony Brook account, did you use

682
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,640
Telnet to log in?

683
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:44,640
Well, yes, that is true.

684
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,640
If it was 1990, I don't think anybody uses Telnet anymore.

685
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,640
No, no, they don't use it anymore, no.

686
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640
Because, but that's the way it used to work.

687
00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:04,080
If the mainframe in, the mainframe in, let's say, Stony Brook uses a D.

688
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,080
The old Univac, yeah, I know, I know.

689
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,080
No, not the old Univac, but let's say it's 1988, or 90, or 91, and Stony Brook used a

690
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,080
DEC mainframe, and Princeton used IBM.

691
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,080
I don't think they had a DEC mainframe.

692
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,080
They might have had a VAX, but I know they had a Univac.

693
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,520
Gaila, do you have some information on this?

694
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,520
No, I have a different question from a listener, but I said I would ask it when Rebel talks

695
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,520
to Brent.

696
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,520
Yeah, let Rebel get through, yeah, this talk.

697
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,520
Let Rebel get through his, otherwise, he hasn't slept in two days.

698
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,520
Oh, yes.

699
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,520
Okay.

700
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:46,520
Okay, so if, like, let's say you had two different terminal systems, you could log on to your

701
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:53,520
system, like, if you were in Princeton, you could log on to the system at Stony Brook.

702
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Stony Brook, right?

703
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:55,960
Well, that was the idea.

704
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,960
Yeah, the idea was to be able to connect, and you know, what was cool, and what you

705
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,960
can't do anymore, you used to be able to run a talk window, and the way that worked is

706
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,960
you would type talk, followed by the account at the school address.

707
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:15,960
So, you know, it would be sunysb.edu or something, and even predated actual internet addresses

708
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,960
like that.

709
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,960
But what would happen was your screen would split in half, you'd be on the top, and the

710
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,400
person you're talking to would be on the bottom, and you could both type at the same time and

711
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,400
have a little conversation there in the window.

712
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,400
That command still exists on many Unix systems, but it's been disabled pretty much everywhere

713
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,400
because of security reasons, but I think it was one of the coolest things about being

714
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,400
on the early days of the internet, because you could talk to people all around the world,

715
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,400
and there weren't other ways of doing that at the time.

716
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,400
Now, can systems disable telnet?

717
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,400
Like, if Stony Brook didn't want anybody to telnet to them, they could disable it?

718
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,840
I'm pretty sure it's disabled everywhere.

719
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,840
I don't know of anything I can telnet to.

720
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,840
No, I'm saying back then.

721
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,840
Oh, back then, maybe.

722
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,840
Alex, you have something. Go ahead.

723
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,840
Yeah, you could always disable telnet.

724
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,840
It operated on port 23, as opposed...

725
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,840
And then telnet mostly became really deprecated when SSH took off.

726
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,840
The problem with telnet was that everything happened in clear text, right?

727
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,840
So you could sniff out...

728
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:26,280
You could sniff out people's passwords as they entered them on the remote system

729
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,280
to which they were telnetting.

730
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,280
But there are still some places to which you can telnet a manual,

731
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,280
which are kind of cool.

732
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,280
And in fact, I think telnet is mostly used these days, as I understand it,

733
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,280
to operate telnet-based BBSs.

734
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,280
Okay, yeah, that's true.

735
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:48,720
So they do still use that particular service occasionally.

736
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:50,720
And you know, Kyle just pointed this out to me,

737
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,720
and it's important to point out there, telnet is not telnet.

738
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:58,720
Telnet is a service that was run by GTE at one point,

739
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:02,720
and it was a packet-based switch network back in the 80s.

740
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:04,720
So, yeah, a lot of people got confused by that.

741
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,720
But telnet, telnet, two different things.

742
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:11,720
But yeah, telnet is still a command that works

743
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:13,720
if you want to connect to something.

744
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:20,160
Yeah, it used to be a way to get to management stuff

745
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:28,160
on different hardware to check or otherwise set something up,

746
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,160
like on a switch or something,

747
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,160
or various things will use that.

748
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:41,160
And you can still launch it in some operating systems, I'm sure.

749
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,600
You know what I like about telnet that I don't like about SSH?

750
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,600
SSH pretty much is a replacement for telnet.

751
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,600
You could type telnet, hit return, and get a telnet prompt.

752
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,600
And then you would type O for open,

753
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,600
followed by a space and the address.

754
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,600
And if somebody also logged into your system

755
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,600
who types the W command to see who else is on the system,

756
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,600
it shows what you're running.

757
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,600
When you did that, it would show that you were running telnet,

758
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,600
as opposed to if you did it all on the command line.

759
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,040
You could type telnet, space,

760
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,040
followed by the address you were going to.

761
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040
And then if that person ran W to see who was on the system,

762
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,040
they would see you running telnet

763
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,040
and also see what you're connecting to.

764
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,040
SSH, it's replacement, that uses encryption.

765
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,040
You can't hit SSH and hit return and get an SSH prompt.

766
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,040
You have to type the whole thing.

767
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,040
So therefore, you're giving away that information

768
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,040
to anybody who types W to see who's on the system.

769
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,040
And I don't know why they never had just an SSH prompt,

770
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,040
because that would have been another layer of security.

771
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,040
I'm sure there's something I'm missing.

772
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,040
But Gila, is this concerning Rebel?

773
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,040
It's a question for Rebel.

774
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,040
Question for Rebel.

775
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,040
Okay, Rebel, get ready for a question.

776
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,040
All right.

777
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,040
Rebel, the question in the chat is,

778
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,040
Rebel is quite the traveler.

779
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,040
What European country do you like the most?

780
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Oh.

781
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,040
Amsterdam.

782
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,040
That's not a country.

783
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,040
For God's sake, you went there.

784
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,040
You got to know it's not a country.

785
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,040
It's a city.

786
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:06,040
Don't go off like this.

787
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,040
Come on.

788
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,040
You know better.

789
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,040
Go back to Telnet.

790
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,040
This brings me to my next question.

791
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,040
I can't get through to people.

792
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,040
I can't get through to people at all.

793
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,040
Go ahead, Rebel.

794
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,040
Just talk about Telnet.

795
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,040
Remember in the 80s when you go to an airline terminal

796
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,040
and you give them your credit card

797
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,040
and they swipe your credit card?

798
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,040
You know, the computer terminals that were hooked up

799
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,040
to the main thing.

800
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,040
How did they verify the credit card?

801
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,040
Did they use a Telnet type of a system

802
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:37,040
where they, not Telnet, but a similar type of system

803
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,040
where they log into their credit cards?

804
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,040
Well, I mean, there used to be all sorts of ways

805
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,040
of verifying credit card numbers

806
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,040
and also just assuming the credit card was correct.

807
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,040
There's an algorithm.

808
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,040
Basically, I think the way the system works

809
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,040
is you add up all the numbers

810
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,040
and they have to add up to a certain number.

811
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,040
That's a checksum, I believe, of the last digit.

812
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,040
I don't know.

813
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,040
This is so long ago that I remember

814
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,040
this particular formula.

815
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,040
And we printed it back in old issues of 2600.

816
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,040
There was some kind of calculation you could do

817
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,040
or a computer could do to say

818
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,040
if this is a valid format for a credit card.

819
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,040
Like, you know, we know that Visa begins with four.

820
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,040
MasterCard begins with five.

821
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,040
But this went beyond that.

822
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,040
This took the whole number,

823
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,040
and if it added up to a certain amount

824
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,040
or was divisible by a certain amount,

825
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,040
then it was at least it passed that test.

826
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,040
But there was no guarantee it wasn't being used fraudulently.

827
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:45,040
Then there were also these books that came out every month,

828
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,040
and these books were filled with credit card numbers

829
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,040
that I think were fraudulent.

830
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,040
So when you made a purchase,

831
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,040
oftentimes the merchant would consult that book

832
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,040
and see if the number was on there.

833
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,040
That's a very crude system,

834
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,040
but back then credit card fraud

835
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,040
was nowhere near what it is now,

836
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,040
so they didn't really have to have it updated to the moment,

837
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,040
but that was the best they could do.

838
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Another way of verifying,

839
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,040
and this was probably the most fun,

840
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040
a merchant would make a phone call

841
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,040
to a credit card company.

842
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,040
And if you ever overheard the phone call,

843
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,040
it was really amazing.

844
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,040
It was pretty comical.

845
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,040
They would start.

846
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,040
The person would pick up on the other end.

847
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,040
They wouldn't say hello or anything.

848
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,040
They would just read off their merchant number

849
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,040
to verify that they had the right to call in the first place.

850
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,040
The person on the other end would say okay.

851
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,040
Then they would read the credit card number,

852
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,040
and then the person on the other end of the phone,

853
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,040
if the credit card number was valid,

854
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,040
would give them a confirmation code.

855
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:44,040
So the whole conversation

856
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,040
was basically two people exchanging numbers back and forth,

857
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,040
and that was how a lot of credit card verification

858
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,040
worked back then.

859
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,040
Okay.

860
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,040
Now, is this the way that computer terminals

861
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,040
in the airports worked back in the early 90s,

862
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,040
late 80s, early 90s,

863
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,040
where instead of them calling,

864
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,040
the computer's not making a phone call,

865
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:08,040
but it's basically calling the visa company

866
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,040
or American Express.

867
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Are you talking about for the airline?

868
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,040
Automatic.

869
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,040
Yeah.

870
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,040
You're talking about what the airline would have done?

871
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,040
Yeah.

872
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,040
Yeah, they probably began,

873
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:28,040
well, because of the volume of authorizations

874
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,040
that they would have to be doing,

875
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,040
they probably linked in their business systems totally.

876
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:39,040
That was probably some of the earliest sort of retail models

877
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:44,040
that required just a higher level of integration

878
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,040
with the merchant service provider.

879
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Most definitely.

880
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,040
Okay.

881
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,040
Gayla, did you have something else?

882
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,040
I wanted to say that CKermit

883
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,040
is the same thing that he's talking about with Telnet,

884
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,040
but it also has SSH baked in,

885
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,040
and I do still have a question for you guys,

886
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,040
which we'll get to when Rebel's off the phone.

887
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:02,040
Okay.

888
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,040
Rebel, one more question or point from you,

889
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,040
and then we're going to move on.

890
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,040
Do you remember police call?

891
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,040
Like, back in the 80s,

892
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,040
before the bail system breakup,

893
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,040
like, you would pick up the phone

894
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,040
and dial the local operator and make a local call.

895
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,040
Or you'd tell her a police call

896
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,040
and you'd give her any four digits

897
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,040
and say that that was a badge number

898
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,040
and they'd put calls through.

899
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,040
I never heard of that.

900
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,040
I know you always would talk about privilege calls

901
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,040
that would make the operator do the work

902
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,040
that most people would do on their own for you,

903
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:36,040
and they would just dial numbers at your command.

904
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,040
I never heard of a police call like that.

905
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,040
What was the intent of that?

906
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,040
How did the TFPS system verify the calling cards

907
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,040
when people entered them back then?

908
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,040
It's like I'm not talking at all.

909
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,040
I don't know.

910
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,040
I don't know.

911
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,040
Rebel, it's been a joy as always.

912
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,040
Always good to hear your voice,

913
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,040
and maybe you don't hear mine,

914
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,040
but thanks for calling,

915
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,040
and enjoy Portugal and the rest of Europe,

916
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,040
countries and cities that you wind up in.

917
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Hopefully you'll be able to tell the difference.

918
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,040
That would be nice.

919
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,040
Okay, is our phone line clear?

920
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,040
Okay.

921
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,040
802-321-4225.

922
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,040
802-321-HACK.

923
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,040
Gila, go ahead with your question.

924
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:18,040
Okay.

925
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,040
The question is,

926
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,040
how was the van acquired,

927
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,040
and was it bought from the phone company?

928
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,040
Is the van still somewhere?

929
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,040
My question, not from the listener,

930
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,040
is do we call it the dodgy van because of who made it?

931
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,040
Okay, I'm just going to ignore that last one,

932
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,040
but I will say that the van was obtained legitimately

933
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,040
at a phone company auction

934
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:45,040
where basically all these old phone company trucks

935
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,040
and cars were being auctioned.

936
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,040
I think it was,

937
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,040
I want to say Westbury, Long Island, Nassau County.

938
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,040
Basically, we went there the day before

939
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,040
to look at all the vans that were out there.

940
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,040
Every single one of them had all the paint scraped off,

941
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,040
so it didn't look like much,

942
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,040
and we got to climb inside

943
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,040
and see what certain vans had

944
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,040
and what certain vans didn't have.

945
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,040
Some were in good condition,

946
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,040
some were in bad condition.

947
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,040
This particular van was the one we chose

948
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,040
for a couple of reasons.

949
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,040
First, it didn't have very many miles on it.

950
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,040
I think it was around 80,000,

951
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,040
which really wasn't that much for a phone company van

952
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,040
that had been used for a number of years.

953
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,040
This was, by the way, in 1993 that we did this,

954
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:38,040
and we saw a number of vans that were similar.

955
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,040
In particular, there was a van right next to this one

956
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,040
that was extremely similar.

957
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,040
The only difference was

958
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,040
the one that we took an interest in

959
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,040
was manual transmission,

960
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,040
and the other one was automatic.

961
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,040
We used that to our advantage

962
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,040
because nobody wanted to drive manual transmission,

963
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,040
especially in a van that had no power steering

964
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,040
and no air conditioning.

965
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,040
It was a workout, absolutely,

966
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:06,040
but it's a workout that people who drive vehicles enjoy.

967
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:07,040
Right, Kyle?

968
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,040
We like driving manual.

969
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,040
Yeah, it's actually in pretty good shape,

970
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,040
and we've noted various places

971
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,040
where there is some metal work

972
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,040
that needs to be done long-term.

973
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,040
Yeah, they all had that.

974
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,040
But it's stored safely

975
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,040
and will be in action, I think, this summer.

976
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,040
Oh, yeah, you'll see it at Hope, for sure.

977
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,040
Is that the last Hope?

978
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,040
It'll be at this Hope.

979
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,040
Yeah, the shifting is great, though.

980
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,040
We've dialed that in.

981
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,040
We had some help.

982
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,040
But let me get back to the auction

983
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,040
because the reason we chose manual

984
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,040
was because knowing how to drive manual,

985
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,040
first of all, is a great thing,

986
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,040
and that's something else.

987
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,040
The people disdain manual

988
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,040
because they want the car to do everything for them.

989
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,040
And I say learn how to drive manual

990
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,040
because you have so much more control over the vehicle,

991
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,040
and you'll be able to feel problems a lot easier.

992
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,040
It's another example of how old technology

993
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,040
is being rejected in favor of the technology

994
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,040
that does it all for you.

995
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,040
Also, the cost of ownership.

996
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:19,040
An automatic transmission has its own implications

997
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,040
as far as maintenance,

998
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,040
the kinds of fluids you need to deal with,

999
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,040
and it requires a different level of mechanical know-how

1000
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:35,040
and cost to buy a brand-new replacement of that.

1001
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,040
The convenience, I think, over time

1002
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:46,040
would have perhaps showed the difference,

1003
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:51,040
whereas getting a manual transmission rebuilt or serviced

1004
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:59,040
or just the simplicity of it, I think, makes it unique.

1005
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:00,040
It is cool.

1006
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,040
We had to get a new clutch at one point.

1007
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,040
I do know that.

1008
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,040
So that was pricey.

1009
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:04,040
Yeah, yeah.

1010
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:05,040
But the familiarity with it,

1011
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,040
you don't need to be a specialist in automatic transmissions

1012
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:09,040
is what I'm saying to work on it.

1013
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,040
And it's funny because after getting a new clutch,

1014
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,040
they moved reverse.

1015
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,040
Reverse used to be you'd shift to the right and down.

1016
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:16,040
That was reverse.

1017
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,040
Now you shift to the left and up.

1018
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,040
And the funny thing is,

1019
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,040
when I got the van back from the mechanic,

1020
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,040
they didn't tell me that.

1021
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,040
And so the first time I'm trying to go into reverse,

1022
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,040
I'm like, where did it go?

1023
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,040
I can't get into reverse no matter what.

1024
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,040
And I had to call them to find out what they did.

1025
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,040
So then that's when I learned.

1026
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,040
But getting back to the auction,

1027
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:36,040
yeah, so the van next to us that was pretty similar

1028
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:40,040
but automatic, that went for thousands of dollars,

1029
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,040
and people really got into a bidding war about that.

1030
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,040
Our van, the next one, nobody else wanted it.

1031
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,040
And we got it for about 900 bucks.

1032
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,040
It was a steal.

1033
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,040
And something I have never regretted.

1034
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,040
That van is a real trooper.

1035
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,040
Engine is in great shape.

1036
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,040
And it's seen a lot.

1037
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,040
It's seen a lot and made a lot of people happy.

1038
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,040
And then, of course, the next part of this

1039
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,040
was getting it painted back into the colors

1040
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,040
that were scraped off

1041
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,040
and getting the vinyl put on just the right way.

1042
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,040
Funny thing is, we had the colors, the stripes,

1043
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,040
that were identical to New York Telephone trucks.

1044
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,040
And they'd wave at us when we passed by,

1045
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,040
thinking we were one of them.

1046
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,040
Everyone thought, hey, that's the phone company

1047
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,040
because from the front there were no logos,

1048
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,040
just the stripes.

1049
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,040
So it definitely looked like that.

1050
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:30,040
And then after a couple of years,

1051
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,040
New York Telephone ceased to exist

1052
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,040
and just got drawn into 9x.

1053
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,040
And they had different stripes.

1054
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,040
They didn't have the same stripes.

1055
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:44,040
So all of a sudden, we had the only van with those stripes.

1056
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,040
It was pretty awesome that that was the case.

1057
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,040
And somehow we won this battle.

1058
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,040
Although to this day,

1059
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,040
phone company guys still wave at the van.

1060
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,040
I don't know if they've been working that long

1061
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,040
and they recognize it was just something

1062
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,040
that's ingrained in our DNA.

1063
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,040
But it still has that feel to it.

1064
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,040
Yeah, and it's recognizable, right?

1065
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,040
It's that familiarity.

1066
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:12,040
And it probably needs a wash.

1067
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:13,040
But other than that,

1068
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:17,040
we'll get it nice and shiny and polish it,

1069
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,040
show off a little.

1070
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,040
It's such a useful vehicle

1071
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,040
and still proves its use.

1072
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,040
Yeah, we've moved many people's homes in that van.

1073
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,040
Equipment, phone booths.

1074
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,040
We had Club Mate Day with the van.

1075
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,040
Soda, magazines.

1076
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,040
We drove it to Dayton at least once.

1077
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,040
No, we drove it a few times to Dayton.

1078
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,040
Dayton, Ohio for the Hamvention, my God.

1079
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,040
It's a very interesting model, the inline engine.

1080
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,040
It's not a V.

1081
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,040
It's got some unique quirks.

1082
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,040
There's probably some interior stuff that needs some rehab.

1083
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,040
And we have a ladder that goes on it.

1084
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,040
We don't usually put the ladder on it.

1085
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:00,040
Yes.

1086
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,040
We usually put megaphones on it instead.

1087
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,040
And we have an amber light that we're going to debut, I believe,

1088
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,040
at some point.

1089
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,040
I hope that answers all the questions about the van.

1090
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,040
Do we have another phone call?

1091
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,040
Yes, someone's on the line.

1092
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:14,040
They've been waiting.

1093
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:15,040
Call.

1094
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,040
Yes, someone's on the line.

1095
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:17,040
They've been waiting.

1096
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:18,040
I'm sorry about that.

1097
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,040
Good evening.

1098
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:20,040
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.

1099
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:21,040
Go ahead.

1100
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:26,040
Yes, I have some comments about things you said on the air.

1101
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,040
Go ahead.

1102
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:32,040
I would like to get a television for privacy and security reasons that I

1103
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,040
use not connected to the internet.

1104
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:35,040
Okay.

1105
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:36,040
Fair enough.

1106
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:37,040
Yes.

1107
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,040
So that means that none of these things would apply as long as it

1108
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,040
cooperates with that.

1109
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,040
Well, I mean, you can get an over-the-air television set that will just

1110
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,040
receive the digital signals, as they are now,

1111
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,040
using the right kind of antenna and all that.

1112
00:55:54,040 --> 00:56:00,040
Rob, you were mentioning how expensive the actual non-smart monitors are

1113
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,040
these days.

1114
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,040
Do you have any recommendations here?

1115
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:08,040
No particular recommendations, but the commercial displays that you would

1116
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,040
get, and you would get that if you, like,

1117
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,040
had a business and you wanted TV screens,

1118
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,040
but you didn't want all the smart TV nonsense on them.

1119
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,040
And, like, if you go into a restaurant and their menu is on a screen or

1120
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,040
whatever, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

1121
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:26,040
But there is also the option, which may be a hassle to do,

1122
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,040
but that is to get just any TV off the shelf,

1123
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,040
take it home, start it up, and just never put it on the internet.

1124
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,040
We still have that ability.

1125
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,040
And the TV will complain.

1126
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,040
You'll switch it on, and it'll go, hey, what's your Wi-Fi password?

1127
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,040
And if you just don't enter it, it'll probably keep asking you,

1128
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,040
and you may have to say no every time.

1129
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:51,040
But, you know, you do have the ability to just never put it on the damn

1130
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:55,040
net in the first place, and therefore it can't transmit anything to you,

1131
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,040
but it also can't transmit anything from you.

1132
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,040
And you could just hook a TV up to some sort of other device that will be

1133
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,040
showing you, you know, whatever digital stuff you want to watch,

1134
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,040
or you could receive over-the-air digital signals if you have the right

1135
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,040
antenna.

1136
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,040
How often will it ask for my Wi-Fi password?

1137
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,040
Depends on the brand, I bet.

1138
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,040
Mm-hmm.

1139
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,040
Yeah, I think that's about it.

1140
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,040
Depending on the brand, it could be often, it could be just once,

1141
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,040
it could be anywhere in between.

1142
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,040
And there is, unfortunately, no way to know.

1143
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:31,040
Go ahead.

1144
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,040
I want to find out before I buy it whether it will be a bad thing.

1145
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,040
Yeah, you know what, for that,

1146
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,040
that's something the internet can help you with.

1147
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,040
If you ask around and make that clear and ignore the people that say,

1148
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,040
why do you want to do this, and this is stupid,

1149
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,040
just say this is what I want, can anyone help me?

1150
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:51,040
I'm sure on Reddit or something,

1151
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,040
you'll find someone who has done the same thing and can recommend

1152
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,040
something, because there are lots of people that want what you want.

1153
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,040
Go ahead, Rob.

1154
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,040
Another option you might have would be if you're going to go into a store,

1155
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:02,040
rather than ordering online,

1156
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,040
if you're going to just walk into a shop where they have TVs on display

1157
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,040
and ask the person there to show you, like,

1158
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,040
can you tell me what would happen if we start this one up,

1159
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,040
but don't put it online?

1160
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:17,040
They might be willing to take one of their TVs and take it offline

1161
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,040
and show you what happens.

1162
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,040
You know what actually might be kind of interesting on this?

1163
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:23,040
What do prisons do?

1164
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:28,040
Because prisons sure don't want Wi-Fi connected to their TV sets,

1165
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,040
and they have TV sets.

1166
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,040
I guess maybe they have those expensive ones or something like that,

1167
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,040
but that might be a place to look.

1168
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,040
I was also going to suggest using projector.

1169
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,040
I don't know if people still use projectors at all,

1170
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:47,040
or if that's not satisfactory as far as viewing quality,

1171
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:52,040
but if you're just trying to get information from a source,

1172
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,040
that's a possible way to go as well.

1173
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,040
I still have my grandmother's old TV set from the 1980s, early 1980s,

1174
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,040
and it still works.

1175
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,040
It never has broken once.

1176
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,040
Of course, I haven't used it in the last couple of decades,

1177
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:12,040
but I imagine there's a conversion that you can apply

1178
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:15,040
that will allow it to receive TV signals.

1179
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,040
Am I incorrect on that?

1180
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,040
I haven't tried.

1181
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:18,040
I haven't tried.

1182
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,040
You can get a box for over-the-air signals.

1183
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,040
I'm sorry?

1184
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,040
You can get a box for over-the-air signals.

1185
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,040
Right.

1186
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,040
Converter box.

1187
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:25,040
Oh, wow.

1188
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:26,040
It's in this room?

1189
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,040
I didn't realize.

1190
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,040
Kyle has just turned on the TV set,

1191
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,040
which apparently has been sitting here the whole time,

1192
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:33,040
and I did not know that.

1193
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:34,040
Wow.

1194
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:35,040
Yeah, it's here.

1195
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,040
It's plugged into a Sony VCR.

1196
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,040
I don't have a lot of storage.

1197
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,040
I got to build some shelves.

1198
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:41,040
Okay.

1199
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:42,040
Yeah.

1200
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:43,040
That's right.

1201
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:44,040
You can plug a VCR into it.

1202
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:45,040
That'll still work.

1203
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:49,040
And you can get converters, as was mentioned, I believe,

1204
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:53,040
that will take sort of widescreen,

1205
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,040
like 16 by 9 aspect ratio stuff, and will squeeze it.

1206
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,040
There's lots of different products available to do that.

1207
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,040
We've done that.

1208
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:07,040
We've also hooked up, like, the DV camera,

1209
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,040
which was the original Freedom Downtime camera.

1210
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:11,040
That's right.

1211
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,040
And we've projected that through the VCR and out of this TV,

1212
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:18,040
and through other monitors, like smaller monitors.

1213
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,040
This is why you don't throw out old hardware.

1214
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:21,040
You can always have fun with it.

1215
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,040
You can play with this stuff,

1216
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:29,040
and make it retrofit it with some of the tools

1217
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:34,040
and devices that we have now, and repurpose it in fun ways.

1218
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:35,040
Did we help with your question?

1219
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:40,040
I think you helped with some of the things you said.

1220
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,040
By the way, about Freedom Downtime,

1221
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:46,040
on the WBI website, when you click off the hook on the schedule,

1222
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,040
it says that you recently directed Freedom Downtime.

1223
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,040
I guess that's an old description.

1224
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,040
That's the only thing I can think of, because that was a while ago.

1225
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,040
That was at least, what, 20?

1226
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,040
No, more than that, 25 years ago.

1227
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:06,040
About VPNs, which you also talked about,

1228
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,040
there's a warning on EFF.org.

1229
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,040
There's an article about a vulnerability of VPNs

1230
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:19,040
if you use them in unfamiliar networks.

1231
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,040
Does anyone want to talk about the security,

1232
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:26,040
possible security risk to the user of VPNs?

1233
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:32,040
I will say it's one tool that you can use,

1234
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:38,040
and it can be a part of a combination of things that you use.

1235
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,040
But, yeah, buyer beware for some of these services,

1236
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,040
and be on your toes.

1237
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:50,040
And, of course, don't set unrealistic expectations

1238
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:55,040
of something that is sold to you, especially if it's free.

1239
01:01:55,040 --> 01:02:01,040
And, yeah, the ways and the kinds of networks

1240
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,040
that you use this on and for what purposes

1241
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,040
could leave some gaps in what your expectations might be.

1242
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,040
Again, go online, see what's recommended,

1243
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:12,040
see what has a good track record.

1244
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,040
See what's been around for a while,

1245
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,040
and make a decision based on that.

1246
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,040
We're going to move on. Thanks.

1247
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,040
VPNs are vulnerable to something called tunnel vision,

1248
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:26,040
an attack that you can do done in the article.

1249
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:31,040
And you used to be able to just,

1250
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:36,040
if you wanted to be as if you were in a different geographical location,

1251
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,040
you used to be able to just find a proxy server

1252
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:42,040
somewhere that you could connect to or through.

1253
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:47,040
Right. Yeah, that's gotten harder, that's for sure.

1254
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,040
Yeah.

1255
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,040
All right.

1256
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:53,040
And, like I said, it's not foolproof, and there are attacks,

1257
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,040
and it is because it is used for so many different purposes,

1258
01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:00,040
it is something that is desirable for gleaning information

1259
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,040
about how it's used or what kind of information is traversing it.

1260
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,040
Thanks for the call. We're going to move on.

1261
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,040
Take care.

1262
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,040
Okay, thanks.

1263
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,040
And we're going to take one more phone call,

1264
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,040
because we're tired, and we've been at this for a while.

1265
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:17,040
802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK, be that last phone call,

1266
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,040
and we will conclude after that.

1267
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,040
Yeah, HOPE Conference coming up.

1268
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,040
We have received all of the speaker entries.

1269
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:31,040
And, wow, we have some great speaker entries,

1270
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,040
and we're looking forward to publishing the rest of the schedule.

1271
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,040
A good part of the talks are already announced.

1272
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,040
I think we're about halfway through at this point.

1273
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:44,040
So there'll be a lot more showing up there.

1274
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,040
We have Cory Doctorow coming.

1275
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:50,040
We have all kinds of amazing people speaking.

1276
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:51,040
And that's not all.

1277
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,040
We're having workshops.

1278
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:54,040
We're having villages.

1279
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,040
We're having all kinds of fun at St. John's University,

1280
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,040
July 12th through 14th.

1281
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:03,040
All the information is on hope.net.

1282
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,040
And I think we have another phone call coming in.

1283
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,040
This will be the last phone call of the night.

1284
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:08,040
Good evening.

1285
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,040
You're on all of the Hookover time.

1286
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,040
We have received email.

1287
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:14,040
Yes, go ahead. You're on.

1288
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,040
Please turn down your device.

1289
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:19,040
Yeah, I just wanted to ask a quick general question.

1290
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:24,040
Where do I get information on the upcoming HOPE Conference?

1291
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:25,040
Is there a website or something?

1292
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:27,040
It's funny because I just said that.

1293
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:28,040
I guess you were calling at the time.

1294
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:32,040
Yes, the website is hope.net, H-O-P-E dot N-E-T,

1295
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,040
and that should tell you everything you need to know.

1296
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,040
Okay, okay, okay.

1297
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,040
That's all I need to know.

1298
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:38,040
Thank you.

1299
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,040
Okay.

1300
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,040
Well, that was an easy phone call,

1301
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,040
and that means we're going to get out of here a little bit earlier.

1302
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,040
Thank you, everybody, for calling in, for listening.

1303
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:48,040
Of course, you can write to us, O-T-H at 2600 dot com.

1304
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,040
Plan ahead.

1305
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:51,040
2600 meetings.

1306
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,040
Not this Friday, but the one afterwards.

1307
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,040
Right, Rob?

1308
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,040
Absolutely.

1309
01:04:55,040 --> 01:05:00,040
And also keep showing your support for WBAI at give2wbai.org.

1310
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:06,040
Yes, and pledge for that off-the-hook thing, the collection.

1311
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,040
Every show we've ever done on a flash drive.

1312
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,040
It's pretty interesting.

1313
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:11,040
Anthology.

1314
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,040
Anthology, that's the word I was searching for.

1315
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:14,040
Thanks for listening, everyone.

1316
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,040
Good night.