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And welcome everybody on YouTube for off-the-hook overtime

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Emmanuel's here Kyle. I think you made it as well. Yes. I'm here. Sounds like our friends in Skype land Rob Gila

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Good evening. Yes and space road gear with us as well. I'm still here. I was okay

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I keep calling you space rogue and that Chris that's absolutely fine because that's how I know you and that's that's who I am

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Yeah, that's that's exactly who you are that that that handle you picked in a few minutes. That's stuck with you

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There's no getting rid of it now during during the break Kyle was telling me some some history of his own

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You want to share this? Well, I I happened upon the lofts website

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When I was very young in like middle school just out of curiosity and some of the news stories

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I no doubt from perhaps listening to the radio or

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Osmosis who knows how but happened upon the lofts website and one thing I remember from it

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I don't know if this is actually something that existed there or if I just imagined it

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but the loft I

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That was I don't think it was video, but it was pre

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Streaming and it was some kind of image every couple of minutes or something

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and I remember that that was really magical because there was no such thing as I was

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Fascinated with online like radio real real audio. Of course the the radio shows that again

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2600 was pretty ahead of their time

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But how how ahead of the time was loft by just doing that?

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Can you describe it a little bit because we had a pre stream at Hope 2020 and it was sort of inspired by that

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Like we did a little bit of a video feed

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Before the event in anticipation and it was very much from seeing that in my early days

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So that's that's how loft changed the world right there for me

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Loft I was an interesting thing. We had a video capture card

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I think it was in like a Mac to or something like one of those big old

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Huge old Macs on a new bus card awesome. We had a video camera from a fleet from the flea market in Boston

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We have the MIT ham radio flea market. We find all kinds of junk there

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so we had an old video camera and we had this video capture card and the software we had would grab a

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capture off the video like every

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Three seconds or something every two seconds. So it wasn't actually streaming but it would update the

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The picture every now and then, you know constantly but and if you were lucky you would see one of us walking in front of

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The camera like it wasn't actually pointed at anybody's desks not or anything

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but you know

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we'd look at the web traffic and the the traffic that was coming into our network and be like

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Pretty popular thing this loft died. It has a static image on it. Basically, right? It's just updating every second of the same

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Area in the loft but a lot of people visited the loft

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I I guess trying to hope hopefully catch a a glimpse of us walking by or something

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I don't know if anybody ever did but it was there and that's what it was

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How how does a kid in middle school find out about the loft? I I don't know

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That's what I that's what happens. You know, you start reading about these things you hear about groups. I don't know search engines

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I don't honestly remember how but I was on that site and very much

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I think the mystery it just captivated me and and

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And just was inspiring that people were out there and it was kind of like something that's popular now

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I guess be real or whatever like seeing a clip of something or like the very streaming site

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We're on now with YouTube, but it was so early on and and digital

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Photos were just emerging. So having this sense that something through the internet was going on

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Live like it was so new and it felt

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Like just another one of the things you did getting online to realize

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This information age that was out there and the magic of technology new technology. We see that today with chat GPT

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All kinds of fun toys to play with and abuse in one way or another but that's that's one I had forgotten about

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Thanks for sharing. I never got to know more about it, but I didn't know and I'm I'm thrilled to hear that it was popular

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Yeah, I remember this too and this was an era like that very early

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Era of online webcams where I I remember there was one famous one

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That was just like the coffee machine in I think I might see somewhere and there was another one

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There were ones pointed at aquariums and somebody pointed one at like some rotting meat and it was just like watch this meat rot

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and

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And and the left eye was another one and if you were part of hacker culture back then and you knew who the left were

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You're like I want to see what's going on on their webcam

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Didn't they just have a rotting meat cam and in in the uk where one of the prime ministers was going to resign cabbage

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Cabbage of totally different. All right

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But a little bit a little bit of trivia for you for loft. I uh,

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the video card that we used in that mac2 was actually the same video card that was used to process the

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Uh video or the the pictures for people that got went to the first hope conference

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That's right. Yeah, I remember that

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I remember that

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1994, uh, you guys you guys came down and you were running the the um, the id

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System that we were going to use until we realized that each id took what about three minutes to print

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Forever and we had a thousand people waiting for for ids. They were so patient

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They really were patient but it turned into us basically having to take cash from people

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I think it was robbed from amsterdam was walking around with a big bag of cash and we were just taking people out there

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Were that they paid and then we just gave them some piece of paper that said yeah, this is the ticket

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Or like I think it was a string or something

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It was it was amazing. Uh, by the way, it was the same video card. Awesome

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That video card is uh, I hope it's enshrined somewhere

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But in 1997 at beyond hope the second conference you guys had a had a panel. Um, it was uh,

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You was mudge, uh, brian at livian kingpin

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Um stefan, uh weld pond and john tan I believe according to this summary here

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and for about an hour you just talked about all kinds of projects and accomplishments and

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It was just you saw how much fun it was. You saw how much fun you guys were having

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This was one year before the congressional testimony

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And um, it was it was it was uh contagious your enthusiasm

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Well, thanks. That was a that was kind of a big moment for me. Um, it was really the first time I had been around

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Out in public as loft around people that knew kind of what loft was

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Uh, and people were coming up to me. It's like oh you're loft. Oh, you're space rogue and i'm like so and something clicked like

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Okay loft is kind of just more than just some random website where we're kind of messing around

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Uh, and it just sort of and the fact if you remember you had we had a live video feed from that hope conference

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in new york

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to

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Chaos in germany, actually it was to um, um

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Hack, what was it called hip hacking in progress in the net in the netherlands netherlands and it was overseas. It was in europe

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It was all I remember. Yeah

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We couldn't wait that this was to save our lives. We couldn't establish a connection with them

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It's kind of similar to our most recent conference where we tried the same thing

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With another conference in in the netherlands and we couldn't connect with them either for some reason

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but it was just the fact that it was up for a little bit like for a few minutes and it was just uh,

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That was kind of a an eye-opening moment for me about just everything in general and that that conference was really

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Cemented in my memory. I write about it in the book a little bit

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um

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and we have all of us on the stage and we're kind of all talking and i'm like

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All these people are sitting here listening to us talk about nonsense with what it felt like to me

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Um, so it was just really a big important event in my my life

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As as it was for for all of us in attendance and uh, you can see that in fact on the very channel that people

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Are on right now channel 2600. There's another section where uh, there's early hope conferences

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Just go to beyond hope look for the loft talk and you can see the whole thing. It's it's really fascinating to watch

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I was looking at it a little bit earlier. Um now the space road tell us something about the whacked mac archives

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What's that all about whacked mac archive? So yeah, that was another one of my little projects that I put together. Um

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So before the internet, uh

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I would dial around to various bulletin board systems and I was a mac user and I would basically download hacking utilities

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You know things like I don't know

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uh war dialers and and credit card number checkers and

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um

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You know, whatever doodads that you really couldn't find and most shareware sites

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Uh, and I had a pretty decent collection of of various hacking utilities little small mac programs

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Uh, and so when the loft had this permanent internet access, uh, it was dial up still it was 57

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K dial up. It wasn't super fast or anything at the start, but I was like, you know

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I'm gonna share all this with everybody else

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And so I started a little ftp site called the whack mac archives

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And I built a little website to go with it that cataloged all the all the different files that we had

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uh, and

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It was very popular. Uh

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So much so that it would saturate our little dial up line with people trying to get the files and download them all

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And so unbeknownst to me, uh, weld and the other folks in the loft

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Created a script that they would run on the main loft box

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Up whacked down whacked so when they would come in to use the the the internet and it was saturated with people downloading whack mac

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Archives, they'd be like down whacked then they'd do their work or whatever and when they'd leave they'd type up whacked and and it

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Would come back online. Well, a lot of times they would forget to put type up whacked

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And so sometimes it would be down for days and I had no idea what was going on and I would

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I would come into the loft and I checked the site and i'm like, oh, yeah, everything's still working

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But there's nobody on I wonder why nobody's on I guess it's not that popular

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uh, and it was like months would go by before I realized what was going on with this up whack down whack thing and

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We all got a good laugh out of this. Wow, that that's that's really awesome. Um,

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you've also been involved in um, uh,

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Speaking out about voting machines security and that kind of thing. What tell us about that?

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uh, yeah, so i've i've uh

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Back before it got to be a super political issue

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Uh, I did a little bit of research and speaking and and uh press releases stuff about uh,

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voting machines and the insecurity of electronic voting, uh, and uh,

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The the risks and hazards to our democracy that that take place by by a lot of having a lot of those machines

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um for me though, I think that the

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the rhetoric got to be extremely strong and uh, so I kind of stepped back from

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being a public figure in that area because it was just

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Uh became too much of a charged atmosphere and uh, the rhetoric on both sides became very very

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Thick if you will, um, but yeah, it's still a problem. It's still an issue

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It's not a solved problem by any means, uh, and it's still something we need to watch out for

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interesting

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uh

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i'm just going through the list of uh of various things that

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Either you or loft have been involved in and one thing that got my attention was uh pogsack, dakota

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Oh, yeah, so that that's for those that don't know that's a paging, uh software so you guys were able to decode

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um a pager traffic

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Yeah, so poxag or post I forget what it stands for p-o-c-s-a-g poxag

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Um, anyway, it's it's as you said it's pager traffic, uh for those of you remember that beepers that would you know, you'd beep

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Uh, and the really high-end beepers would have a small little digital display that you could put a message into

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Uh, and that gets sent over the air over the radio waves in the clear

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Uh, and so the protocol is very well known. It's easily, uh

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Captured over the air and it's easily, uh transcribed back into regular text

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And so, uh kingpin actually designed a small little circuit that would do this

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Uh, and uh, we we put the circuit, uh, we got some circuit boards made

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We built the circuits

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Soldered them together and put them inside of a db25

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Uh connector, uh, which is for those of you i'm familiar

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It's basically a big wide printer cable that has the end of it

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Uh, and so you could then plug that into the back of your pc

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Run a piece of software and capture all this pager traffic and just read all the pages that everybody's sending back and forth

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to each other

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I mean, you really don't have any idea of who sent what to who but it was kind of interesting to see anyway

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uh, all kinds of weird stuff that you would uh,

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Get over the airs over the radio waves via pagers

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Wow anything you remember

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Uh, not specifically a lot of you know, I love yous or you know

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I'm coming home on the way and a lot of 9-1-1, you know people dialing 9-1-1 in the number

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Meaning oh, it's an emergency call home right away, you know that sort of thing. Uh,

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But it it's interesting to look at for a little while. It kind of for me it lost its interest pretty quickly

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Well, it's funny. I just remember having a pager and of course back then that was pre-cell phone

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Uh, and if you wanted to call somebody you'd say you were driving

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You'd have to pull over to the side of the road and find a pay phone and call them that way

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uh, and I remember just I was um

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Communicating with a friend of mine. I did this with several people actually and it was one way obviously

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But you know, I didn't have a text pager

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I had just a numeric pager, but we would send text messages by sending the equivalent, uh numerical touch tone

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Key, so if I wanted to uh, you know say hello, I would type four three

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Uh, was it five five six would spell out hello on a touchtone phone, but i'd have to figure it out

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There's no way to figure it out

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So i'd be driving in in my car in my head

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Uh looking at the touchtone pad saying what could this person have meant and then figuring it out and it made the time go by

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but it was it was those initial steps into into that little bit of technology and it was uh,

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It was it was a bit of fun

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Well, it's interesting. I mean sometimes people or even businesses would have codes, you know, okay

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You know five through seven means this or whatever, right?

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Uh, and then you would be able to just text those numbers back and forth and be able to communicate that way

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Through a certain series of numbers. Wow. That was amazing reminds me also. Um,

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We had mudge on the show once um back at I think in the 90s. In fact, I think it was 1998

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um, and somehow our connection got lost where the voice part got lost and we actually started communicating by

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I think pressing keys

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And we we both realized that we could still hear each other

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We just couldn't hear our voices and we were starting to communicate that way

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So it's it's just these great hacker adventures that we somehow always get thrust into

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Uh, and that's that's the magic that exists to this day

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Um, and on that subject, what do you have to say to people of today?

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Maybe people were just starting out in the hacker world who don't have the same things that we had back in the 90s

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They have far more sophisticated tools now

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A lot of people say oh hacking is just not the same the spirit's not the same. What do you think about that?

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Uh, I mean the the spirit's there the the hacking is still there

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Uh, it's different, right? It's not the same tech. I'd actually say it's easier

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I mean you got google you got all the answers right there in front of you

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Uh, just type them enter your query. You got chat gpt to find stuff for you. Uh, you have much more sophisticated technology

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Uh raspberry pies raspberry pi w's well when you can get them, right? There's kind of a shortage right now

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Uh, but there's still dumpsters

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Dumpsters are still out there

209
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There's flea markets. I remember going trashing with you guys in boston

210
00:15:13,420 --> 00:15:19,020
It was so much fun just finding all kinds of things and and then the fleas afterwards the flea markets

211
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The mit do they still go on? Yeah, the flea markets the third sunday of every month at the mit on vassar street

212
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Uh, you just in the summer you just did people show up and sell whatever junk they have

213
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Uh, or you go and buy more junk we went there with the 2600 van once and it was a lot of fun

214
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:38,060
And yeah, I don't know why we didn't do that again

215
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:43,820
Well, they're still there. They're waiting for you and we still have the van. So so maybe maybe I think a trip is due

216
00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:45,580
Yeah, absolutely

217
00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:48,780
We have some junk actually we could bring have you ever played with a flipper zero?

218
00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:55,500
I have not i've read a lot about it so far. But that's yeah speaking of uh, you know technology and hacking it's a

219
00:15:56,060 --> 00:16:02,220
Pretty amazing piece of kit that you can get for inexpensive money and do some really really neat tricks with

220
00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:07,820
Mm-hmm. Yeah a lot of exploring to do that. We're hoping to do that. Uh, the first hack is getting one

221
00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:12,300
They're very hard to get your hands on but uh, they they are in fact

222
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I think brazil just outlawed them because they they're afraid of what they can do

223
00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:18,780
Uh for those who don't know they're uh, how would you describe them?

224
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,920
It is like a electronic multi-tool

225
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:27,820
and it it is um designed to test and to

226
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Uh log and do a myriad of different things for very specific

227
00:16:33,820 --> 00:16:38,140
protocols typically things used for like access control, but it also goes into

228
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:41,420
um different radio frequency bands like near

229
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:46,380
uh field communication nfc as people might understand it and then um

230
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That kind of goes into things. Um, if you imagine, uh, like contactless payment and of course, uh, it has

231
00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:58,620
Uh gpio, uh, someone someone told me they could steal my car with one. Is that true?

232
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:02,860
I i'm not gonna say that it's that it's for that

233
00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:06,540
But it could definitely tell you a lot about how your car works. I think

234
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:12,620
Wow, and and someone else said you could just wave it over your credit card and it'll capture that somehow

235
00:17:13,340 --> 00:17:15,340
I think it can see credit cards. Yeah, of course

236
00:17:15,340 --> 00:17:18,620
I can just take a picture of the credit card too and get the same information, but whatever

237
00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:23,020
but there's a lot of these types of tools much like

238
00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:31,100
Uh space space hard was talking about like raspberry pi. Um, uh, the microcontrollers the just the uh kits

239
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And breakout and uh tools that you can assemble

240
00:17:35,260 --> 00:17:40,540
um, they're great fun little exercises building little computers or or building, um,

241
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:43,260
Onto these kinds of multi-tools

242
00:17:43,580 --> 00:17:49,020
And um, so we're really excited about what people get into and and other uh stuff like this space

243
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:51,980
Rogue, did you ever make it to a maker fair before they stopped having them?

244
00:17:52,780 --> 00:17:57,020
No, I probably have the the makings of a maker fair here in my office

245
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:59,740
But I never actually made it to an actual maker fair

246
00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:03,740
Uh, I mean i've got the 3d printer and the soldering iron not much more you need I guess

247
00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:09,180
um, I do make a lot of stuff that never ever sees the light of day, but I mean

248
00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:13,820
There are opportunities abound for for anyone who wants to sort of, you know

249
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:19,020
Get into it and to think that the golden age of hacking is over as I think is, you know, a lot of poppycock

250
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:24,540
Yeah, I agree with that but the thing is the maker fairs the ones that I saw in in queens in new york city

251
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:33,180
um, they they basically illustrated that really well because you just had thousands of people tens of thousands of people showing up all

252
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interested in technology and all

253
00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:37,980
willing to learn

254
00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:43,980
Uh not filled with preconceived notions as to what hacking was about the people who ran the maker fairs certainly got it

255
00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:50,240
And it was just it was incredible to see just an endless number of kids just being enthusiastic

256
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about learning technology

257
00:18:53,020 --> 00:18:55,420
and it was a real shame when they when they uh,

258
00:18:55,900 --> 00:19:00,060
Stopped having those and I hope they come back someday because that really is the spirit

259
00:19:00,060 --> 00:19:03,020
The hacker spirit was right there in those in those maker fairs

260
00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:06,700
Yeah, they didn't use the hacker evil hacker word

261
00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:11,660
Uh, and so people weren't scared away from it. Well, they they when we were there they used it for us

262
00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:14,940
They said, you know, these are hackers and it was it was used in the right way

263
00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:20,620
Uh, but I mean, you know as far as uh, um calling themselves makers, that's perfectly fine

264
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:26,380
uh, there's different ways of um of describing the enthusiasm that people have and and uh,

265
00:19:27,020 --> 00:19:33,100
There was a lot of crossover. They were learning to solder, uh tents where people would would spend hours learning how to solder

266
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:37,580
And and just uh cracking security and things like that lock picking was a big deal there

267
00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:40,940
So I hope it returns someday. I really do and I hope we see more

268
00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:42,780
hacker

269
00:19:42,780 --> 00:19:46,240
Events, have you uh continue going to hacker conferences?

270
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:51,180
Yeah, I still go to as many conferences as I can. Uh last couple years have been difficult

271
00:19:51,820 --> 00:19:55,100
But I have been able to still participate in schmoo con which is fairly

272
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:57,820
Nearby for me in dc

273
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:02,860
Uh besides philly. I'm now in philadelphia. I've moved out of boston. So i'm down in philadelphia now

274
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:05,100
Uh, so I try to do besides philly when I can

275
00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:07,020
besides delaware

276
00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,900
Uh, I haven't made it up to new york as much as I would like

277
00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:14,620
Um, but I know new york has a couple of good conferences as well. Yes, we we've heard of one called hope

278
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:19,180
And oh, yes, there's hope. Yes. We're at saint john's university now. So that's completely

279
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:23,580
They tore down the old venue. Yeah, they that was the only way to get us out of there

280
00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:25,100
and uh

281
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:29,180
But now we're in a university setting instead of a hotel setting and it's completely different

282
00:20:29,340 --> 00:20:34,540
It's basically they're a lot more open to what hackers are all about and uh, and things work too

283
00:20:34,940 --> 00:20:37,020
Imagine that it's always good technology that works

284
00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:43,740
Wow, um getting back to congress 20 years afterwards you guys reassembled you tell us something about that

285
00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:49,580
So yeah, the 20th anniversary, uh, which is five years ago. We had ended up doing two events

286
00:20:49,980 --> 00:20:52,460
Uh one we had a panel at defcon that year

287
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:58,140
Uh where we got I think five of us on stage of seven, which is uh, pretty good

288
00:20:58,540 --> 00:21:02,460
uh, and we had a great moderator, uh, and

289
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:08,060
It was very well attended and a lot of people asked some great questions and uh, I think it was a

290
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:10,060
a great

291
00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:13,500
Uh thing to get us sort of all together again, which hadn't really happened

292
00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:17,100
Uh, the other event that we did we actually went back to washington dc

293
00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:23,420
Uh, it wasn't congress, uh, but it was uh in the capitol building, uh in one of the senate office buildings

294
00:21:23,740 --> 00:21:30,380
Uh, and we did a q a and talked about the history and and where we are today versus where we were then

295
00:21:31,020 --> 00:21:35,600
And we had myself mudge weld and kingpin, uh with katie massaurus moderating

296
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:38,940
Uh, and so, uh that went very well as well

297
00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:42,060
I think there's video of that online somewhere as well as the defcon

298
00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:45,980
Uh talk as well, which is probably on somebody's youtube channel someplace

299
00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:52,300
And of course your original testimony in 1998. I saw that on kingpin's youtube page

300
00:21:52,860 --> 00:21:54,860
Yes, that's that's it

301
00:21:55,260 --> 00:21:59,360
Hey, uh, we're gonna open up uh phone lines if people want to call in, uh 802-321-4225

302
00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:07,020
Ask a couple questions of space rogue, please. Let's try to keep it on topic and uh, go ahead gila

303
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:11,100
I do have a question before our inevitable first caller calls

304
00:22:11,740 --> 00:22:13,740
um about the

305
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:15,020
uh

306
00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:20,640
Senate hearing because rob did find that picture of you guys all at the table, which is fantastic

307
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,440
And my question is did you get to keep the name plates? Oh

308
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,000
uh

309
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,120
I don't think so

310
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:36,720
Uh, yeah, because they are actually engraved name plates plastic name plates that somebody somewhere in the capitol building was tasked to make

311
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,840
Uh and actually engrave them, but I don't have mine

312
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,680
I don't know if anybody else has theirs

313
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,560
But it's interesting that you bring up the picture. There's a little bit of a story about that

314
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,960
Uh for those that don't know there's a famous picture of us all sitting at the table

315
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,840
There's seven of us there, uh, and we refer to it as the loft supper, uh photo

316
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,560
Um because mudge is in the middle with the long hair

317
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,680
Wow, and we're all kind of flanking him on the sides and I wanted to use that photo on the cover of the book

318
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,920
Uh, and but it's a copyrighted photo

319
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:04,240
of course

320
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,840
I didn't take the photo and I go to the

321
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,560
The the stock photo place and I look up the price for using on a cover and it's like fifteen hundred dollars

322
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,880
I'm like, I ain't gonna fuck i'm not spending that kind of money

323
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,800
But I tell my I tell my book designer i'm like look this is my idea for the cover

324
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,440
But I can't use this photo. I don't know if you have any other ideas

325
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,920
And she's like, you know, I can just make a line art drawing of the photo and then you're fine

326
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,000
It's an original work. I'm like really?

327
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,880
Yeah, go ahead. So that's why there's a line art drawing of the photo on the cover instead of the actual

328
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:32,800
photo

329
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:39,760
Wow, that that's pretty amazing, you know, um, especially you mentioned, um the testimony that I had

330
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,960
Whatever year that was that there was video i've never even known that there was video of that

331
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,640
So if that it really exists, please let me know and if you can I will look for it again

332
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,480
I know I swear I saw it because you were wearing a uh, american flag bandana I was

333
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,360
Yes, does that sound like me? Wow? Okay

334
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,080
To congress I did that

335
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,400
Yes, I had a t-shirt a bandana

336
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,280
Okay, it wasn't a suit. I know that. Okay, that's true. I'll look for the video again

337
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,320
I I'm sure I I know i've seen it. I just don't know where it is

338
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,240
Uh-huh, because there's this thing called the mandela effect, you know where people swear they were somewhere

339
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,640
That people think mandela died like in the 90s when actually he died recently

340
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,280
But a lot of people think that it's really kind of weird and I didn't think there were any cameras in that room

341
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,880
So i'd love to maybe maybe you know, i'm maybe it is the mandela effect

342
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,760
It sounds interesting whatever whatever it was. All right. I'll I will look for it for you. Okay, are we gonna take this call?

343
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,920
I I should warn you. Uh, some of our callers have a tendency to

344
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,440
Wander off topic and hopefully that's not the case here. Yeah, some of them like to be first too. Okay

345
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,440
um

346
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,440
Good evening. You're on off the hook over time

347
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,440
Yes, emmanuel. Let me just stop you right there. Hold on a second

348
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:58,020
And let me tell a special this is rebel who is always the first caller has been since the 1990s

349
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:04,160
So I guess it's appropriate that he's the first caller now rebel if I might ask you to please try and keep things on topic

350
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,200
Yeah, I remember I remember hearing about the lost. I remember, you know, you know seeing I never really were

351
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800
Uh went to their site or anything, but I did I haven't heard of them

352
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:21,760
But anyway, being that you're talking to people from the 90s remember computed i'm going to ask this question to the lost people

353
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,720
remember computed terminals like um

354
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,640
you know, you know computed like colleges had them and like their libraries and uh,

355
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:39,040
Like different entities had you know, I remember in college they had digital equipment corporation computer mainframes and they had vt

356
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Was it 230 or vt 220s is what I used

357
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,840
220 I think we had the later version

358
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:52,880
But um, have you ever heard of a computer company called informer? They're from like the 70. I think they're from like 79 or

359
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,160
I am not familiar with informer. I used vt

360
00:25:56,780 --> 00:26:01,600
110s vt 220s from deck and weiss terminals and I don't remember the model numbers of the weiss

361
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,440
I think the informals are the precursor to that. They were they were they were they were from california

362
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,720
But uh, yeah, I think they went out of business in the 90s. Yeah, i'm not familiar with them at all

363
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,880
Um, well, all right now, let me um mention that um, uh,

364
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,060
Remember in the 90s, we never heard commercials in supermarkets

365
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,120
Um, uh, yeah, we had muzak, uh in supermarkets, I don't remember

366
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,960
I don't remember hearing commercial. I don't think I have commercials in my supermarket today

367
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:39,440
But i'm sure some supermarkets do you have announcements you have announcements, yeah, like, you know breakage in aisle three

368
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,560
That's sort of like a commercial I guess. Well, yeah, but that's not a commercial but when you hear the commercials on tv

369
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,140
You now hear them in the supermarket

370
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,200
You know what?

371
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:55,220
Well, there's commercials everywhere. They're in movie theaters now, too. So yeah, that's uh, I was in a restaurant and I heard commercials

372
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,280
Really?

373
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,320
Okay, that's kind of weird if you're actually at a table and you're hearing commercials

374
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,800
I I would are you sure somebody wasn't playing something?

375
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,920
I don't you can always put in your headphones and listen to your iphone and and listen to off the hook on a podcast

376
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,080
That's what he does. He does that

377
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,960
Yeah, well, let me let me demonstrate them the two two five

378
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:19,520
Let me uh, remember, uh when I was told I was going to demonstrate what two two five nine nine zero one

379
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,160
Didn't we ask you not to all right? You know what? Go ahead. Please do it quickly. Let me connect you one moment

380
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,640
This is what happens. This is we have no control

381
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,520
And he puts us on hold

382
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,120
Although your call cannot be completed to the number you dialed I can

383
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:45,600
Help you find similar businesses in the area for no additional charge. I'm searching now. That's what two two five nine nine zero one does now

384
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,600
But why did you call that number

385
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,720
because

386
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,520
Two two five nine nine zero one used to tell you what central office it is. Okay now it it

387
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,560
It tries to connect you with similar businesses, but what business were you looking for to start with?

388
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,400
I wasn't looking for a business. So all right. What does it connect you to?

389
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:14,000
It didn't get it. Well, all right. Well, it's two two five the bayside queen central office has two two five two two nine

390
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,080
Four two eight and all but if it called two two nine nine nine zero one it's big

391
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,360
Welcome to the bayside central office. Okay, like like they used to say

392
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,560
All right. So my question to you then is does it it doesn't give you any information just says that

393
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,000
it says that but um, but it says

394
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,680
Um, it says

395
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,480
It does connect you with it doesn't connect you with anything. But let's let's just hear it again

396
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,160
Yeah, but rebel what i'm trying to tell you is I think what you're calling is just the recording like they used to be

397
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,800
All kinds of numbers you'd call and one would say please insert 25 cents

398
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:54,640
It didn't actually want you to insert 25 cents, but that's that's the number they kept that recording at for some reason

399
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,080
So I think that's what you're but that's not a phone company recording. It doesn't sound like a phone company recording

400
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,920
I'm, not saying it belongs to the phone company. It belongs to somebody and they're just keeping that recording there

401
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,880
It doesn't actually do anything

402
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:14,880
Maybe because 9901. I don't know i've i've called uh, uh spacework for in case you don't know a 9901 suffix in new york

403
00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:21,840
Oftentimes identifies the central office of the phone company and tells you what other exchanges are linked to that particular exchange

404
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,000
Uh, but lately i've noticed that 9901 is used for almost anything

405
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,480
In fact, i've even called people at 9901. So it's not necessarily what it used to be

406
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,800
Just like well, I would assume they would it was historically for phone company workers to figure out what exchange went to one co

407
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,840
But phone company workers don't need that number anymore because they can just look it up so they don't need to call

408
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,360
So what else you're going to use the number for if the phone company doesn't need it?

409
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,040
Yeah, they're just going to give it out. They just repurpose it to something else. It's a good sounding number

410
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,680
997

411
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:58,560
997 used to be all busy 9971 used to be fast busy 9979 was a sweep tone. There were all kinds of cool numbers

412
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,360
And it's all digital now. So the phone company workers don't need those numbers anymore. That's true

413
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:09,200
That's true down to like quality of service unless like they're they could do with uh instruments and so forth

414
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,000
They're less reliant on on communicating rebel. What else you got and then we're going to move on

415
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:20,000
Then the 917 exchange area code used to be just for like cellular phones and

416
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,840
Now it's now it's you know, 718 could be a cell phone 917 could be

417
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600
I've had 212 cell phone numbers. Yeah

418
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,640
Anything is possible area codes don't mean anything anymore

419
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:39,680
It's sad because I I like being able to identify where things are coming from but that's just uh, a decision that was made

420
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,640
Okay, hold on for long distance

421
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Hold on for long distance

422
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,200
You know, they don't even do that anymore because there is no long distance

423
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:55,760
Everything's local. Yeah, but no no there is but uh, when you ask the 18th the uh, the nine at the uh,

424
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,480
What do they call them? You don't even know the name of the phone company

425
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:03,440
Verizon, can you ask the zero operator for long distance? She said

426
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:10,000
Yeah, you'll have to call information to find out your long distance. They used to connect you with the one distance carrying

427
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,480
Anymore

428
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:20,240
What's crazy is that I still get bell atlantic recordings sometimes like if I if I get if I get a busy, uh signal and

429
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,080
It wants me to uh use their service where it calls me back. It says bell atlantic will call you back and

430
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,480
It still says that and that's what two phone companies ago. They lost track of the recording I guess

431
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,280
But you can find things like that

432
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:41,040
Yeah, when you call information there's may I have information and she said oh you'll have to dial 411

433
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,120
They don't even connect you with things anymore

434
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,440
Unless you've asked to be connected with a phone number sign of our times, which is not connected anymore

435
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,960
Um lost people lost people. Do you remember when zero operators used to do things like that?

436
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,400
But anyway, do you know anything about tops how tops works like not not modern ones now?

437
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,920
But no, no, I mean everything's digital but i'm talking about everything's digital. Yeah. Yeah

438
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,640
Like remember gsps and then then they had terminals and all this

439
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,520
It was a pleasure as always, uh, please stay in touch we're going to open up the phone lines for more people and um, okay

440
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,120
and um

441
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,360
Take care. See you next time. Okay. All right

442
00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:26,000
802-321-4225. That's 802-321-hack

443
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,760
We have space rogue here from the loft. It's still technically from the loft not formally of the loft

444
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,920
Yeah, it's the law

445
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,920
The loft is former not me. Uh-huh

446
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400
I'm, but you guys existed before hacker spaces as a concept existed

447
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,240
Uh, pretty much we were one of the very first if not the first hacker space. Yeah, absolutely

448
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,240
Yeah, I I remember um at the time I think there was new hack city in boston

449
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,400
There was new hack city. There was sin house. There was a lot of different

450
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,360
Uh houses where people kind of lived and were kind of hacker-ish

451
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,340
Uh, but I wouldn't call them hacker spaces

452
00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:05,780
I think there was a difference there between a shared livings quarters and what a hacker space is, right?

453
00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:07,860
But there was you know a lot of crossover, too

454
00:33:09,540 --> 00:33:16,100
Well, it just it was an amazing environment, uh, it was unique nobody else had that I think it just inspired so many other people

455
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:17,940
To try something similar

456
00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:24,420
uh, are you aware of anything like this in boston now or um, there there is a a couple of uh,

457
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:29,460
hacker spaces in boston now, I don't know if they really want their name mentioned in public, but uh,

458
00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:35,060
Uh, they do exist. Some of the old folks are there and some new folks, um in in at least two different

459
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:41,780
Organizations I know of uh in boston. I'm sure there are some there's one here in philadelphia called hive 76 and there's one called

460
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:43,300
the hacktory

461
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:49,540
Um, which are sort of hacker slash maker spaces, uh, and i'm sure there are ones in other cities as well

462
00:33:50,660 --> 00:33:51,940
Wow

463
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:55,620
And other countries all around the world. Yes. Have you have you guys had much?

464
00:33:56,260 --> 00:33:58,260
contact with international

465
00:33:58,260 --> 00:33:59,460
hacker community

466
00:33:59,460 --> 00:34:06,740
We did, uh, you know as loft, uh, there was uh access for all out of the netherlands and of course chaos in europe

467
00:34:07,140 --> 00:34:09,140
uh, and

468
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:14,340
There was goroa hacker club in brazil, I think I'm going to get these countries wrong. I'm, sorry

469
00:34:14,660 --> 00:34:19,220
Um, and a couple other ones scattered around the world, but uh since then not as much

470
00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:24,900
Uh recently mostly because i've been sort of out of touch as opposed to them not existing

471
00:34:25,060 --> 00:34:27,060
Uh

472
00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:30,180
All right, 802-321-4225 any calls carl

473
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:33,300
Uh, no lines are open lines are wide open

474
00:34:33,380 --> 00:34:34,900
Okay, operators are standing by. All right

475
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,340
sometimes sometimes we have to beg for calls just for people to uh call in and uh

476
00:34:38,740 --> 00:34:42,580
Ask questions. Well, there's a little delay after you give the and there's also a delay. Um

477
00:34:43,380 --> 00:34:47,540
but now uh to get back to the um, the reunion, uh, um

478
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:52,900
Meeting and uh in the congressional bill. It wasn't a a congress thing. It was

479
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:55,460
Um something that happened in washington dc

480
00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:00,820
Yeah, I forget the name of the group, uh that sponsored it like the cyber caucus or something

481
00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:08,180
Congressional internet caucus academy. There you go and the senate cyber security caucus. It's great to have notes in front of you

482
00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:12,180
I've never heard of those before. Wow, that's amazing

483
00:35:12,740 --> 00:35:18,500
Yeah, so they sponsored it. Uh, they got a room, uh in the in the in one of the office buildings and uh

484
00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:20,980
Mudge and I and weld and kingpin were there

485
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:26,820
Uh, we had the lovely katie masuris who moderated for us and we had a room of maybe 50 75 people

486
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:28,980
It was also filmed. It's up on youtube

487
00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:33,940
Um, I don't think it's as as interesting as the original testimony personally

488
00:35:34,420 --> 00:35:37,780
but uh, we both had a we all had a few things to say about

489
00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:43,140
Uh, then and how things had progressed into to now or now of five years ago

490
00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:46,360
Um for and that's what we did for the 20th anniversary

491
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:50,580
Well, one thing that mudge said that really struck me was he was talking about the computer fraud and abuse act

492
00:35:51,060 --> 00:35:54,200
Uh saying how it was used selectively. It's used unevenly

493
00:35:54,740 --> 00:35:59,380
Uh saying that the anti-circumvention provisions of the digital millennium copyright act

494
00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:05,220
Which is intended to stop digital intellectual property infringement also suppresses security research

495
00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:09,640
And kingpin, uh chimed in we live in a very litigious society

496
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:16,040
Uh, the risk of lawsuits has made security research in some ways, uh riskier than it was in 1998 when every member of loft

497
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,720
Felt compelled to testify under their hacker handles instead of their real names

498
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,240
He said now that I have kids and I don't want to go to jail. I'm very nervous

499
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:28,120
and I think that that uh, that kind of uh is a feeling many people have because of

500
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,840
all these um, um laws and rules that are in effect now

501
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:39,320
Made by people who don't necessarily understand the technology. They're regulating a lot of good things are are quelled

502
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,600
absolutely, uh, I mean

503
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,440
you can look at numerous cases under the cfaa where uh,

504
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,400
People were threatened with large sentences of for ostensibly

505
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,960
very minor crimes

506
00:36:53,960 --> 00:37:01,160
dmca is another sledgehammer that's used uh to great effect by those that uh, hold the copyright and

507
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,200
To against those who don't uh, and so and a lot of these cases

508
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,880
sometimes these laws are tweaked over time cfaa is one of those that's had a lot of

509
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,200
Minor changes to it over the years and so it's not as bad as it was

510
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:21,560
uh, but uh the cfaa specifically, uh is because of the guidance out of the doj that says, you know

511
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:26,760
We can selectively prosecute this or that or we should not look at this so strongly or we look at this stronger

512
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:30,680
But that changes with every administration, uh, or even less

513
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,360
so those guidance is uh can be

514
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:40,680
Come down again as different guidance and the cfaa becomes a much bigger threat than it is right now today

515
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,520
uh, and so

516
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,400
There's still a lot of effort underway to actually change the wording

517
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,600
Of the laws so that they become a little bit more clear and not as ambiguous as they currently are

518
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,800
because would you be able to say like the fall on is that there are gaps then for periods when

519
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,960
different types of activities for for security and and

520
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,160
um

521
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:03,960
people

522
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:09,480
Looking into this stuff. They they periods where people were more reluctant and sort of ebbs and flows then

523
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,940
Wouldn't it have that kind of impact in a commercial scenario?

524
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,960
yeah, there is an ebb and flow to the laws absolutely, um because of the

525
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,420
Again because of the ambiguity in the wording and the selectiveness in the prosecutions

526
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,480
Uh, and who can and cannot take advantage of some of those laws

527
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:35,640
Uh, and so because we have the department of justice coming down and saying, okay, we're not going to look at cfaa violations this strongly this year

528
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Uh next year they may come down and say okay

529
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,560
We're really going to step on on on this aspect of the law and really prosecute this section

530
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,460
Unfortunately, the laws are written these particular laws, especially

531
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,340
I mean the cfaa was originally written in 1986

532
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,080
It's been I think it actually may be even older than that

533
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Um

534
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:03,320
And it has been modified since then there has been tweaks to it, but it's still a lot of terms are not uh,

535
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,880
Defined very well unauthorized access. What actually is authorized if I visit a web page have I been?

536
00:39:10,980 --> 00:39:15,080
Authorized, uh, or do I need specific permission from the company to visit their web page?

537
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,840
That isn't really defined in the law and it isn't defined anywhere else. What is an access control device?

538
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,520
Uh, i'm sure

539
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,120
Well, I won't go there. Uh, so those are you know where I was going to go

540
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:31,080
Yes, you know being in philly and all that. But anyway, so those are parts of the law that are not uh,

541
00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:34,280
adequately defined, uh, and so those definitions can

542
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,320
Be at the whim of the prosecutor to figure out

543
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,320
What's going to happen there?

544
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,680
um, so

545
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:46,040
you know, this is one of the reasons why i'm sort of involved in policy and try to meet with lawmakers and educate them and

546
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,600
And and talk to them and sort of say this is what's happening out here on my side of the world

547
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,440
Uh with these laws and and why we need to make some changes or modify the wording in them

548
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,080
We have a phone call. Yeah, we do and good evening. You're on off the cover time

549
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,520
Hi there guys. Hey, how's it going?

550
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,120
And and the one lady

551
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,640
It's good to talk to you, this is johnny fusion again. Oh, hey, how you doing welcome?

552
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,240
Well, i've been better i'm in the hospital, but you know i'm tuning in

553
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,800
Oh, i'm sorry to hear that

554
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:29,580
Yeah, it's been a rough month I caught covid at the beginning of the month recovered from that now I got the neurovirus

555
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,760
Oh boy

556
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,660
Well, yeah, well, you know because I am on those transplant meds i'm immunocompromised

557
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,000
So it's really easy for me to catch stuff

558
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:42,680
and

559
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,120
Yeah

560
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:49,320
And sometimes hospitals are are bad places for that too, uh, hopefully you're well in a good one

561
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,080
I'm still yeah, i'm still seeing in a nursing facility and that's probably where I pick these things up

562
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,320
I see

563
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,820
Well, you sound good. If that's any any consolation

564
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:06,600
Well, i'm a bit better today, you know, but i'm here to talk about the loft

565
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:11,720
And space rogues I did buy the book during the break. I mean the radio. Thank you

566
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,000
Off the hook

567
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,740
Thank you, you know, I got you know, I have my kindle with me here in the hospital

568
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,960
And so I just went on went on amazon and bought the ebook and i'm looking forward to reading that

569
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,260
As I have a lot of time on my hands as you can imagine

570
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,880
I've been following the loft for a long time

571
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,040
You know

572
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,040
When they testified before congress

573
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,680
I thought that was amazing

574
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,060
You know, I actually re-watched the whole testimony

575
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,240
um just a few months ago

576
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,200
and um

577
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,200
It was really, you know, it was a watershed moment for

578
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:55,500
Hackerdom and just basically how clueless

579
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,400
government is with tech, you know kind of like uh

580
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,700
What I said in my last call with when I was talking with the guy from the eff

581
00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:09,420
About just

582
00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:16,480
How behind people in government in the legislature and in the judiciary especially

583
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:19,500
are behind on

584
00:42:20,460 --> 00:42:24,700
Just the tech scene and the realities of what tech is

585
00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:31,660
Well, I like to think that they're catching up sometimes, uh, and then of course technology takes another giant leap forward

586
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:37,820
Uh, so it's going to take a while think for for example, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show chat gpt

587
00:42:38,620 --> 00:42:42,540
How are we going to handle these chatbots? Right? What's the legal ramifications of these chatbots?

588
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:44,940
And what's what's ethical and what's not right?

589
00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:50,780
And so those are the things that we need to look at and try to decide on and and educate lawmakers on now

590
00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:54,220
So that when they go to write the laws and they will because that's what they do

591
00:42:54,620 --> 00:43:01,580
Uh that they write them correctly and appropriately so that they're they actually are effective laws that go into the future

592
00:43:01,740 --> 00:43:04,460
We now have issues that we have with some of the older laws

593
00:43:06,140 --> 00:43:11,680
Yeah, actually I addressed this in an upcoming article that's going to be published in the magazine

594
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,680
I actually oh great acceptance email in the emergency department

595
00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:18,860
Well, they they ran they they gave it to you

596
00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:24,460
I didn't know. No, I was checking my email on my phone and I and I got and I got the email

597
00:43:24,460 --> 00:43:26,460
Oh, I thought it was like a telegram. They ran it through

598
00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:29,260
Sir, you must see this

599
00:43:29,260 --> 00:43:31,260
Because we we do that sometimes

600
00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:39,420
No, but yeah, you know and i'm very grateful for for you publish me publishing me again

601
00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:42,380
This will be my uh fifth article for the magazine

602
00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:46,540
Well, we're the ones who are grateful for people who write because believe it or not

603
00:43:47,020 --> 00:43:52,880
It's a rarity these days and I I just i'm afraid that people are going to use these artificial intelligence

604
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:59,500
Applications as crutches and never learn how to write. So it's it's always good when people actually take the time

605
00:44:00,940 --> 00:44:06,380
Well, i've been writing a long time, you know, and I take pride in my craft and that's what the article is about

606
00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:08,940
About not being replaced by ai

607
00:44:09,660 --> 00:44:14,140
Because every human being is unique. It has a unique voice

608
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:21,760
And can't really be replaced because human beings aren't really replaceable or interchangeable

609
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:27,980
Yes, well said well said any any other questions, uh for space rug

610
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:30,780
yeah, um

611
00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:32,780
I remember I think it was

612
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:36,960
Oh, well time is wonky during the pandemic, but sometime during the pandemic

613
00:44:37,740 --> 00:44:41,260
Didn't uh, lost crack go open source

614
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:44,780
Yeah, loft crack has had a long and storied history

615
00:44:44,860 --> 00:44:50,000
I'm, not sure i'm the best person to tell the loft crack story, but i'll try to give you a brief synopsis

616
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:53,260
Uh the current status I believe it is open source

617
00:44:53,740 --> 00:44:55,180
um

618
00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:57,660
So loft crack was a product that loft had

619
00:44:58,380 --> 00:45:02,860
Which audited windows nt passwords for those that aren't familiar with it back in?

620
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,420
1997

621
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:11,260
When it first came out, uh, and it's gone through several iterations and versions over the years, uh at stake

622
00:45:11,820 --> 00:45:15,100
When at stake bought loft they didn't really know what to do with loft crack again

623
00:45:15,180 --> 00:45:17,180
That didn't fit in their business model either

624
00:45:17,260 --> 00:45:19,260
uh, so they kind of

625
00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:23,180
They made it they had to rechange the name from loft crack to lc

626
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:25,900
uh lc5

627
00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:30,540
I think was the release version and then when semantic bought, uh at stake

628
00:45:30,940 --> 00:45:35,120
They didn't know what to do with it all and they shelved it somehow mudge and weld and dildog

629
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:38,940
Got loft crack back from semantic and re-released the product

630
00:45:39,740 --> 00:45:42,780
And then they realized it's too much work for us to do. We got day jobs

631
00:45:42,860 --> 00:45:45,180
We can't really keep up with this anymore. And so they

632
00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:49,180
Gave or sold or licensed the product to another company

633
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:51,900
And they kind of just let it flounder

634
00:45:52,060 --> 00:45:55,100
For a couple of years and so weld and mudge and dildog were like

635
00:45:55,660 --> 00:45:58,060
I don't know what you're doing over there with this thing, but we're taking it back

636
00:45:58,380 --> 00:46:02,140
And so they somehow got it back from this other company and then released it as open source

637
00:46:02,380 --> 00:46:06,380
And so now loft crack is open source, uh, and anybody can use it for free

638
00:46:06,780 --> 00:46:12,300
Uh, and i'm not sure the website to point you to maybe loftcrack.com. Uh, you can google it i'm sure

639
00:46:12,860 --> 00:46:17,260
And it's l0phd. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, i'd just say uh being open source

640
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:20,480
Wouldn't that uh also mean that anyone can develop it themselves?

641
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:22,460
Yes in addition

642
00:46:22,460 --> 00:46:24,700
I'm, not sure what the license it was released under

643
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:27,740
It's not my project but sure it still exists

644
00:46:27,820 --> 00:46:32,060
It's still out there and you can go find it and do what you will with it. It's awesome

645
00:46:32,060 --> 00:46:37,260
It's under a combination. It's i'm sorry to jump in but it's under a combination of licenses all open source

646
00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:44,780
Okay, great. It's just awesome that they care enough about it to keep looking after making sure it's being treated with the respect it deserves

647
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:49,420
Yeah, I mean they could have sold it off or whatever the deal was they made with this other company

648
00:46:49,420 --> 00:46:50,700
And I just totally forgot about it

649
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:54,700
but it was important to make sure that it stayed alive and was useful and

650
00:46:55,100 --> 00:47:00,460
Uh, it's really I think loft crack is a is another influential part of the loft story

651
00:47:00,940 --> 00:47:06,960
In the fact that it was really one of the very first widely available windows, uh, nt password auditors

652
00:47:07,420 --> 00:47:12,060
Uh, and it influenced a large number of other programs that came after it

653
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:16,140
Uh jack the ripper actually jack might have been first with the as a unix program

654
00:47:16,300 --> 00:47:19,420
but the nt part was influenced by loft crack, so

655
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:23,180
Um, and then there's off crack without the l

656
00:47:23,740 --> 00:47:25,740
Uh didn't know about that one

657
00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:26,620
Yeah, it's off crack

658
00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:33,100
There's a couple other ones too that were uh similarly named that are out there and when loft crack kind of went on hiatus

659
00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:36,780
They kind of took over and now loft crack. I haven't really been keeping up. I don't really know

660
00:47:37,020 --> 00:47:39,020
Um, but it's out there if you want it

661
00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:41,900
Wow

662
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:46,540
Yeah, and I just I just want to thank the loft and you know for being pioneers

663
00:47:46,540 --> 00:47:50,320
You talked about a little bit earlier before I called about being pioneers

664
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:53,100
in the hacker space

665
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:56,800
You know, uh a few years ago. I moved to a new community

666
00:47:57,980 --> 00:48:02,460
And that was one of the first things like that. I was able to get plugged into

667
00:48:03,180 --> 00:48:08,620
And build, you know, my social wellness in a new community was going to the local hacker space

668
00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:11,100
You know, this was sonora, california

669
00:48:11,580 --> 00:48:13,580
very small rural

670
00:48:13,740 --> 00:48:16,480
Uh town in the foothills in the sierra nevadas

671
00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:20,380
And they had the mother load maker lab

672
00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:24,540
and you know, I met a group of friends and

673
00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:29,980
I just was able to go there and hack, you know learned

674
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,800
3d prints and I started working with microcontrollers

675
00:48:35,660 --> 00:48:36,540
and

676
00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:39,020
got better at my linux skills and

677
00:48:39,740 --> 00:48:41,740
And I think the genesis

678
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:48,620
Of all hacker spaces really began with the loft and because of the impact it had on my life

679
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:52,160
I'm, just really grateful for the genesis

680
00:48:53,020 --> 00:48:54,140
of

681
00:48:54,140 --> 00:48:57,180
just I mean, i'm sure it happened just organically, but

682
00:48:58,940 --> 00:49:00,940
It was repeated and that model

683
00:49:01,660 --> 00:49:05,260
Has repeated, you know, just kind of like as hackers do we take?

684
00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:09,580
What works and we repeat it and we share it?

685
00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:12,540
And we grow it

686
00:49:13,260 --> 00:49:17,340
Well, thank you very much for the kind words and i'm glad that loft was there and was able to

687
00:49:17,900 --> 00:49:19,740
Assist you in your journey

688
00:49:19,740 --> 00:49:25,100
Uh, and and and further of your education and well-being, uh in social makeup

689
00:49:25,180 --> 00:49:25,740
uh

690
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:30,780
you know, those are really impactful things to hear that that we sort of played a part in I don't know how to

691
00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:35,900
Handle that people tell me that sometimes i'm like, you know, we were just a bunch of guys in a warehouse really

692
00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:40,860
Uh, and and people tell me that the you know loft had a major impact on their life so

693
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:44,220
Um, thank you for that. I appreciate appreciate those words

694
00:49:44,780 --> 00:49:46,540
Yes, thank you so much

695
00:49:46,540 --> 00:49:52,540
for for all the words that that you uh share with us both on the radio in the magazine and uh, just uh in

696
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,660
appreciation of what we have in the hacker community because

697
00:49:56,540 --> 00:50:00,000
It's it's unique. It's precious. It's it's something that's so worth preserving

698
00:50:01,180 --> 00:50:05,820
Yeah, definitely and when i'm medically cleared to live independently again

699
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:07,900
after this transplant journey

700
00:50:07,980 --> 00:50:11,920
You know, I plan to be going to the san francisco 2600 meetings

701
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:16,780
and finding another local, uh hacker maker space

702
00:50:17,580 --> 00:50:23,820
You know, you know that you know and putting down roots close to my transplant center because when I get sick

703
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:28,940
I don't want to go to any other hospital. No, that's uh, you gotta take care of yourself. That's that's the important thing

704
00:50:29,580 --> 00:50:32,380
It was great hearing from you and I I really hope next time we hear from you

705
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:36,060
You'll be in a much better place and um and thriving

706
00:50:38,060 --> 00:50:43,580
Thank you emmanuel it was good to talk to you and talk to everyone and please keep writing doing well

707
00:50:43,820 --> 00:50:47,500
Please keep writing. What's that? Keep writing. We need more more writers

708
00:50:48,860 --> 00:50:54,780
Okay, i'll work on i'll get to work on my next article. Okay. Be well. Thanks for calling. Bye

709
00:50:56,460 --> 00:50:58,460
Uh, pretty pretty awesome there

710
00:50:58,620 --> 00:51:05,580
Um, you know while we were speaking with him I was just looking over um something on your wikipedia page just really jumped out at me

711
00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:08,360
concerning a

712
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,180
2016 us government accountability office report

713
00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:15,100
uh, this is about the nation's nuclear weapons and how

714
00:51:15,740 --> 00:51:21,180
Uh, they're under the control of computers that rely on outdated eight-inch floppy disks

715
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:23,500
I remember seeing this on 60 minutes

716
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:31,360
And um, I I believe you argued that the older computers data storage systems programming languages and lack of internet connectivity

717
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:36,320
Actually makes it more difficult for them to be broken into effectively reducing

718
00:51:36,940 --> 00:51:43,100
the vulnerability of the weapons control systems to hacking whereas most people would say oh my god, this is so outdated we

719
00:51:43,580 --> 00:51:46,780
uh, we have to replace this with the most modern thing right now, and I think

720
00:51:47,420 --> 00:51:49,660
You you saw for what it was as actually

721
00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:53,120
Uh through through its um its antiquity

722
00:51:53,740 --> 00:51:59,100
Uh, actually being a level of security that many systems today can't achieve

723
00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:06,300
Security through obscurity sometimes it's referred to. Um, I think in that particular case, uh, the argument was that oh my god

724
00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:09,820
It's old. We have to make it new like and that was it like that was the argument

725
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:14,700
Uh, and it would say yeah, we're talking about systems that were controlling nuclear weapons

726
00:52:14,860 --> 00:52:18,460
We're talking about eight inch floppy drives like really old ancient stuff and

727
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:24,220
My argument is this stuff isn't connected to the internet like you would need physical access to it

728
00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:29,340
Anyway, so as long as you have spare parts and a source of eight inch floppy disks and backups

729
00:52:30,140 --> 00:52:32,940
Who cares how old it is? It works. Don't fix it, right?

730
00:52:33,420 --> 00:52:35,260
uh, and so

731
00:52:35,260 --> 00:52:39,100
You know if it was if this was an internet connected system, uh, if there was other

732
00:52:39,580 --> 00:52:41,020
Uh, you know

733
00:52:41,020 --> 00:52:46,780
Variables that we need to take into account then yeah, maybe upgrading it would would be wise but in this particular case

734
00:52:46,940 --> 00:52:50,860
None of that really applied the fact that it was old didn't really matter it worked

735
00:52:51,020 --> 00:52:56,300
So let it continue to work. Isn't that the answer to so many of our problems though?

736
00:52:56,460 --> 00:52:58,940
Does everything have to be connected to the internet?

737
00:52:59,660 --> 00:53:03,500
I actually got a gift of a connected rubik's cube today

738
00:53:04,540 --> 00:53:05,580
really

739
00:53:05,580 --> 00:53:08,220
It's actually kind of neat and I I am enjoying it immensely

740
00:53:08,220 --> 00:53:13,180
But it's just the fact that I have a rubik's cube like the actual toy the rubik's cube has bluetooth in it

741
00:53:13,580 --> 00:53:15,580
Uh is kind of amazing

742
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:22,060
I mean as a gimmick. Yeah, it's great. But um, you don't need your refrigerator to be on the internet. Do you I mean, uh,

743
00:53:22,140 --> 00:53:24,140
No, I don't need my refrigerator

744
00:53:24,140 --> 00:53:26,140
in fact, I do actually have a

745
00:53:26,380 --> 00:53:30,140
Wi-fi enabled washing machine dryer and oven in my house

746
00:53:30,220 --> 00:53:34,220
But none of them I have connected even though I have an iot network on my home network

747
00:53:34,300 --> 00:53:36,300
I have not connected them to it because I don't need to

748
00:53:36,780 --> 00:53:42,460
But what they're starting to do and i've noticed this the hard way is there are certain features that you cannot access unless it's

749
00:53:42,860 --> 00:53:44,540
through the app

750
00:53:44,540 --> 00:53:50,860
Uh, so I cannot for example, uh, there is a certain dryer setting on my dryer and I forget what the setting is

751
00:53:50,860 --> 00:53:52,620
But every now and then I want to use it

752
00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:56,220
Uh, I can't access it because it's it's only via the app

753
00:53:56,780 --> 00:54:00,380
And I just like so I have to use some other setting on the dryers kind of frustrated

754
00:54:00,380 --> 00:54:03,980
Does the app have to go through the internet or can the app connect directly?

755
00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:05,660
uh

756
00:54:05,660 --> 00:54:09,100
I'm assuming it well it has to go onto my it's not a local ad hoc network

757
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:13,900
So it has to go onto my network somehow. I don't know if it needs to phone home to the home servers

758
00:54:14,220 --> 00:54:17,420
I hope not because i'm sure that company's not going to be here 30 years from now

759
00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:21,500
They're not going to keep those servers around exactly. I hope you know, luckily my dryer will still be here

760
00:54:21,500 --> 00:54:24,220
I don't know, but that's how they force you to upgrade and get new

761
00:54:25,020 --> 00:54:26,940
equipment when your old equipment is

762
00:54:26,940 --> 00:54:33,260
You know at 2600 we we drive machines into the ground we we use things for 10 20 years

763
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:38,940
And you know if they're not if they're not being used for the um, uh, the the uh, the most urgent stuff

764
00:54:38,940 --> 00:54:41,420
They're being used for something. Yeah, we sorry

765
00:54:42,380 --> 00:54:45,500
just to add a fine detail like we have

766
00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:47,660
machines that

767
00:54:47,660 --> 00:54:49,660
we've replaced capacitors on the

768
00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:52,860
On the motherboards themselves and then put the machine back in

769
00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:58,380
With new power supplies or new drives and the same old os if we want it offline or whatever

770
00:54:58,460 --> 00:55:04,220
Yep, go right back out there to the front line. That's my toothbrush is 15 years old and i've replaced the battery four times

771
00:55:04,620 --> 00:55:06,780
Awesome. Wow. Wow. Okay. Yeah

772
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:13,260
because the new toothbrush the new the new ones have like some pressure sensitive thing in it to protect your gums or something and it's

773
00:55:13,260 --> 00:55:16,700
Like I don't want that but you can't turn it off and it's there and i'm like

774
00:55:17,180 --> 00:55:20,060
So that for I bought the new one I hated it so i'm like, you know

775
00:55:20,140 --> 00:55:22,220
I'm, just gonna take my old one apart and put a new battery in it

776
00:55:22,380 --> 00:55:27,980
And so i've done that four times now the toothbrush is from like, you know, it's 15 years old at least if not older

777
00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:30,060
uh, and

778
00:55:30,060 --> 00:55:35,100
I had to actually buy older toothbrushes off ebay to get spare parts to fix this one toothbrush

779
00:55:35,820 --> 00:55:38,300
I'm running a machine on xp

780
00:55:38,940 --> 00:55:44,620
Uh, that is only only reason for existence is to run an old version of itunes for windows

781
00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:51,820
Uh, and the reason I want that is because it's not filled with bloatware and ads and all kinds of connect to the itunes store

782
00:55:52,460 --> 00:55:55,260
And I I want that I want to keep it that way

783
00:55:55,740 --> 00:56:01,340
And uh anytime something happens where I might have to change some bit of hardware in that machine

784
00:56:01,820 --> 00:56:06,300
I'm always being lectured you have to upgrade. No, I don't have to upgrade. I like it the way it is

785
00:56:06,540 --> 00:56:09,820
It's not connected to the internet. It plays music for me. It's perfect

786
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:13,180
I don't want the newest thing because as soon as I get that it's going to do something

787
00:56:13,180 --> 00:56:16,060
I don't want it to do it's going to rename something to something. I don't want

788
00:56:16,860 --> 00:56:20,220
A lot of people don't seem to understand that they feel they have to immediately

789
00:56:20,780 --> 00:56:25,200
Uh change things when they're told to change things by the company by the software manufacturer

790
00:56:25,580 --> 00:56:29,420
I mean sometimes it's it's it's a good idea when it's a security issue

791
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:35,500
Many times though, you know, if you have something that you like and it's uh, you understand the security concerns

792
00:56:36,220 --> 00:56:40,700
There's nothing wrong with you running it the way you want to run it without somebody telling you what to do

793
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:45,420
Exactly. I'm glad somebody agrees. It took long enough to find somebody

794
00:56:46,940 --> 00:56:51,500
On space rogue. It's been a delight. It really has please tell us more about how people can get your book

795
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:54,700
And um, and and what your next book is going to be about

796
00:56:55,820 --> 00:56:59,500
So the current book is space rogue how the hackers known as loft changed the world

797
00:56:59,740 --> 00:57:05,580
It is available at better bookstores everywhere, including amazon, uh, both in hardcover paperback and ebook

798
00:57:05,580 --> 00:57:09,980
So feel free to check out go to your local bookstore bookshop.org. If you're not familiar with it

799
00:57:09,980 --> 00:57:13,180
We'll uh donate part of your purchase price to your local bookshop

800
00:57:13,580 --> 00:57:18,540
Uh so that we can have the local stores stay open and not get run out of business by amazon

801
00:57:18,540 --> 00:57:23,020
But if amazon's your only choice it's available there too. Yeah, that's for the next book. I don't know yet

802
00:57:23,660 --> 00:57:26,300
Yeah, well, I think that'll depend on the feedback to this book

803
00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:30,620
Uh, which uh, it just came out what about a month ago two months ago. It's been uh, six weeks

804
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:33,020
I think it's been available weeks. Okay, so uh,

805
00:57:33,260 --> 00:57:37,500
Great looking cover it ended up really really really nice. Yeah, absolutely. And uh,

806
00:57:37,580 --> 00:57:39,980
How how do the rest of the people in the loft feel about it?

807
00:57:40,780 --> 00:57:46,700
Uh, that's an interesting question. Um, so I didn't tell anybody I was writing the book, uh until it basically came out

808
00:57:48,060 --> 00:57:50,060
Did they appreciate the surprise?

809
00:57:50,620 --> 00:57:54,700
Uh, I haven't had any negative feedback from them. Uh, there are uh,

810
00:57:55,260 --> 00:57:57,580
There's one person in the community who I won't name

811
00:57:57,660 --> 00:58:00,060
There's one person in the community who I won't name

812
00:58:00,780 --> 00:58:05,740
Who is mentioned in the book and I sent them a advanced copy and say hey i'm publishing this book you're in it

813
00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:10,060
And they were not very happy. Uh, they didn't want to be in the book at all. But other than that

814
00:58:10,380 --> 00:58:12,380
Feedback has been very positive

815
00:58:12,460 --> 00:58:13,500
Wow

816
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:18,460
So some words, uh towards the end of the book, uh that one of the reviews mentions

817
00:58:18,940 --> 00:58:21,340
Uh, you say hackers are not the bad guys

818
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:25,100
Most of the great inventors of our time such as alexander graham bell

819
00:58:25,740 --> 00:58:28,140
uh mildred, uh kenner and

820
00:58:29,020 --> 00:58:30,620
nikola tesla

821
00:58:30,620 --> 00:58:36,220
Could easily be considered hackers criminal gangs who are running ransomware campaigns or are stealing credit cards

822
00:58:36,620 --> 00:58:40,380
Are just that criminals they just happen to use a computer instead of a crowbar

823
00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:42,460
They are not hackers not to me

824
00:58:42,460 --> 00:58:49,980
Anyway loft's message of bringing security issues to light and getting them fixed still echoes throughout the industry and is more important today than ever

825
00:58:50,540 --> 00:58:52,860
I can't think of a better way to to sum it all up

826
00:58:53,580 --> 00:58:55,020
Thank you

827
00:58:55,180 --> 00:58:57,340
All right. We've been speaking with uh with space rogue

828
00:58:58,060 --> 00:59:00,220
Who has uh written a terrific book, please?

829
00:59:00,780 --> 00:59:02,220
Get a copy

830
00:59:02,220 --> 00:59:06,620
uh gift it to people and uh, write to us with your feedback if um

831
00:59:06,860 --> 00:59:13,100
If you have anything you want to say about the show this show or the one previous oth at 2600.com space rogue

832
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:15,100
Any contact points you'd like to give out?

833
00:59:15,740 --> 00:59:21,180
Uh, i'm on twitter. I'm on mastodon prefer mastodon. Uh, there's a website space rogue.net

834
00:59:21,340 --> 00:59:24,460
Uh have email there's a web form on the website

835
00:59:24,620 --> 00:59:29,100
Uh, i'm pretty much available everywhere on linkedin as space rogue, which is kind of interesting

836
00:59:29,100 --> 00:59:31,660
I don't know how long that'll last but it's been there for 20 years. So

837
00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:33,180
Wow

838
00:59:33,180 --> 00:59:36,380
Are you surprised some things have lasted for a long long time and other things?

839
00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:42,540
Yeah, my linkedin profile is space rogue is one of them because they keep saying they're going to crack down on on you know

840
00:59:42,540 --> 00:59:47,260
Not real names, but it's been up there space rogue for 20 years and hopefully it'll stay there

841
00:59:47,820 --> 00:59:48,940
Awesome

842
00:59:48,940 --> 00:59:53,100
Well again, it's been so much fun talking we could talk for hours and hours and hopefully we will again soon

843
00:59:53,500 --> 00:59:57,180
And we look forward to seeing you at hope and maybe we'll make it down to where you are at some point

844
00:59:57,660 --> 01:00:02,080
All right. Great. Looking forward to seeing you. All right. Take care. Good night. Everybody. We'll see you in two weeks