1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Phone ringing. 2 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:31,000 Phone ringing. 3 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:58,000 Phone ringing. 4 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,000 Thank you for listening to Off The Hook. 5 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,000 Phone ringing now. 6 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:27,000 Phone ringing now. 7 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 And a very good evening to everybody. 8 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 The program is Off The Hook. 9 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,000 I'm sorry nobody answered the phone before. 10 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,000 I really thought somebody was going to pick up. 11 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,000 We went back in time and we were trying a thing. 12 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,000 It didn't work. 13 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000 We'll figure it out. 14 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,000 This is Manuel. 15 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 I'm here for this hour. 16 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,000 Kyle's over there. 17 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Hi. 18 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 How are you doing? 19 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Over in Skype land, we have, hang on, I know this. 20 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Rob, is that you, Rob? 21 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,000 Good evening. 22 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,000 It is indeed me. 23 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,000 It's been such a long time since we've been on the air. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,000 That's why I'm having trouble recognizing. 25 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,000 And whoa, is that Gila over there on the other side? 26 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,000 Good evening. 27 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 Hello. 28 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000 How are you doing? 29 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000 How are you doing? 30 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000 And that must be Alex, right? 31 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000 It is I. 32 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000 Okay. 33 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000 I got all the names right. 34 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,000 Folks, we've been super busy. 35 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 All kinds of things going on. 36 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Life keeps getting in the way. 37 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,000 And there's no alternative. 38 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,000 But we're glad to be back. 39 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 We've got all your cards and letters and emails and things like that. 40 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,000 And we have a lot to talk about. 41 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:38,000 A lot, as always, in the world of high technology, low intelligence, and whatever else is out there. 42 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Can I start by complaining? 43 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,000 I mean, I'm told I don't do that enough. 44 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,000 And I need to get better at it. 45 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,000 But I do have something to complain about. 46 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000 I've actually complained about this already on the social media network. 47 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,000 So if you're a fan of those, you might already be familiar with this particular issue of mine. 48 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,000 Okay with you guys? 49 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,000 Go for it. 50 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Okay. 51 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:07,000 There's this service out there on the television called Netflix. 52 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,000 You may have heard about it. 53 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,000 And there's a button on my remote on my television set that says Netflix. 54 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,000 If I push that button, my television set goes to Netflix. 55 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Right? 56 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,000 It's something that other people have, a button, a Netflix button that immediately takes you to a Netflix screen. 57 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,000 And you log in or you're already logged in. 58 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,000 And you can view Netflix fare. 59 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Well, a couple of weeks ago, I hit that button. 60 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:45,000 And much to my surprise, I got a message on my television set saying, this device is no longer supported. 61 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:52,000 To watch instantly, please see the list of supported devices on our website. 62 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,000 I was fit to be tied. 63 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000 You know, here it is. 64 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,000 I'm looking at a television set. 65 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:06,000 And the screen on the TV is telling me that my television is no longer supported. 66 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000 Now, can you imagine if you turned on a television set in the past and you tuned to Channel 2 or something. 67 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000 And Channel 2 said, no, your TV is no good anymore. 68 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,000 You have to go get a new TV in order to watch Channel 2. 69 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Why? There'd be riots in the street. 70 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000 There'd be insurrections. 71 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,000 There'd be all kinds of things going on. 72 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,000 People would not tolerate it. 73 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:42,000 Yet today, for some reason, this is considered normal where a service that you pay for is basically unavailable to you if you don't continue to buy new hardware. 74 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,000 So, I said some things about this on the Internet. 75 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,000 And the response was not surprising. 76 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,000 Not surprising. 77 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:03,000 And the reason I say that is because no matter what, if you complain about something involving technology, there are always people who will stand up for the bad technology. 78 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Okay, let's read a couple of these. 79 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Your TV was never supported by Netflix. 80 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:17,000 I just happened to have a Netflix client which worked for an earlier version of their service and hasn't been updated since because your TV vendor kept its firmware. 81 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,000 Okay, how does that help me exactly? 82 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,000 So, I'm supposed to be mad at my TV now instead of Netflix? 83 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,000 I just want to watch a damn TV show and I have to jump through hoops. 84 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000 That's not right. 85 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,000 The next response was life offline is great. 86 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,000 Okay, great. 87 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:44,000 I have to lecture now on not watching television after complaining about something that I spent a lot of money on no longer working. 88 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,000 So, now you're telling me that, yeah, you're stupid to be watching TV. 89 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why don't you go outside? 90 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 First of all, it's two in the morning when I'm trying to do this, all right? 91 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,000 And I'm not going to go outside. 92 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,000 And then, okay, response number three. 93 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,000 People still use Netflix? 94 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:04,000 Oh, yeah, now I'm an old grandpa for like wanting to use Netflix. 95 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,000 Yeah, I'm not cool anymore. 96 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:15,000 I have yet to see a positive response, something that doesn't blame the end user. 97 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000 And yeah, I'm an end user at times. 98 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,000 I'm proud to be an end user. 99 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Here's a suggestion. 100 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Why not just buy a NUC and you see or something and run it that way? 101 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,000 Then you'd have the added benefit of having an actual computer connected to your TV. 102 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Maybe I don't want a computer connected to my TV. 103 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Maybe I just want a damn TV set. 104 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,000 Maybe I just want to do things the way they're supposed to work. 105 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,000 I have a Netflix button on my remote. 106 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,000 That, to me, is an implied contract right there. 107 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,000 I'm sure Alex, you'd stand next to me in court and swear to that. 108 00:07:51,000 --> 00:08:00,000 Having that on the remote is my promise to be able to watch Netflix by pushing that button instead of getting a scolding. 109 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,000 Okay, if the TV is that old, my TV is less than 10 years old. 110 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000 You know what? 111 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,000 I grew up in Queens. 112 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,000 And in my entire life in Queens, we had the same TV set. 113 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,000 It's huge, black and white. 114 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,000 I think it was a Sylvania or something. 115 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,000 And we would never think of getting another television set. 116 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,000 It was the only one. 117 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Occasionally, it had to get fixed. 118 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,000 That was a big deal. 119 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000 But, yeah, things are meant to last. 120 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,000 And I like to hold on to things. 121 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,000 I like to hold on to technology. 122 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I'm using a laptop right now. 123 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,000 How old is this laptop, Kyle? 124 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000 How old do you say this one is? 125 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,000 It's almost 10 or 12 years. 126 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000 I think it's 12 years. 127 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000 I think it's, yeah. 128 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,000 It still works. 129 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,000 It does everything I want to do. 130 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,000 I'm not composing symphonies on it. 131 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,000 Although I probably could if I had any musical talent. 132 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,000 But people are too quick to throw out technology. 133 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,000 And just follow the instructions all the time about upgrades 134 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:09,000 and what becomes no longer relevant, no longer supported. 135 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,000 So if your TV is that old, it's 1080p at most, 136 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,000 so any streaming stick or device should work. 137 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Okay, fine. 138 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,000 They're telling me to go use an iPhone or an iPad, 139 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,000 which I don't have, and other services. 140 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Okay, great. 141 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000 You know, I can do all this. 142 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000 I know I can do all this. 143 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,000 The point is I shouldn't have to do all this. 144 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,000 It should still work. 145 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Why is my TV all of a sudden not supported? 146 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,000 Because somebody made a programming decision someplace, 147 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,000 and everybody is expected to follow it. 148 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Here's probably the most helpful response that I got 149 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,000 out of all these responses, and there are many, many more. 150 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000 I'm skipping over. 151 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,000 This is why I want a dumb TV. 152 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,000 It's not an insult. 153 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,000 It's a thing. 154 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000 A dumb TV. 155 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,000 A TV should only be a display, maybe also a speaker, nothing else. 156 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Any smarts need to be in an attached device that can be replaced 157 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 or upgraded if outdated. 158 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,000 Amen to that. 159 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 Yeah, absolutely. 160 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,000 There are more. 161 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,000 There are more. 162 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,000 In the end, yeah, I figured it out. 163 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000 I didn't have to throw out my TV. 164 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,000 I used a Roku device. 165 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000 But again, how many people out there instantly are able to do that, 166 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000 able to figure it out? 167 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,000 They buy a TV, the salesman says, 168 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,000 yes, you can get Netflix as a Netflix button, 169 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,000 and all of a sudden your TV is outdated, you have to get a new TV, 170 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,000 and a lot of people, I'll bet, do that. 171 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,000 Any thoughts from out there in Skype land? 172 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,000 Delia, I know you had your hand up first. 173 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,000 I did. 174 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Well, first I was curious what a NUC was, 175 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 but Rob walked me through that. 176 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,000 But, no, it made me think about something. 177 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,000 So there was a TV, bought it in 2015, 178 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,000 and it has a cute little remote with the buttons on it. 179 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:56,000 And this particular that I'm holding in my hand right now has a Netflix button, 180 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:02,000 an Amazon button, a Vudu button, and an RDO button. 181 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,000 And I'm curious now what would happen, 182 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,000 because some of these services don't exist anymore. 183 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,000 Don't press that button. 184 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,000 Delia, don't press buttons of services that don't exist. 185 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,000 That sounds like an old Roku. 186 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,000 You'll void your warranty. 187 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,000 The TV might even explode. 188 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,000 It might even explode. 189 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000 We don't know. 190 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,000 And then we have the newer, got some extra ones. 191 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,000 And this one has an HBO Max button, 192 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,000 and I wonder if you push the HBO Max button, 193 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000 will it tell you that's not my name anymore? 194 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,000 That's right. 195 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,000 It's called just Max now, isn't it? 196 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,000 Right. 197 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:40,000 So, you know, part of me wonders why we have these services on the buttons, 198 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,000 and you can't just program your own buttons. 199 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,000 There's a bunch of services here and here that we don't have, 200 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,000 buttons that are just taking up space. 201 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,000 Yeah, program your own buttons. 202 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000 I like that idea. 203 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Yeah, you should be able to, like, remap them to something that works 204 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000 or a workaround that you've devised. 205 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,000 Mm-hmm. 206 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,000 Alex, go ahead. 207 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:02,000 You should look at the buttons and perhaps see them for what they are. 208 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,000 They're essentially advertisements. 209 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,000 They're advertising an online service, 210 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,000 and they're utilizing space in your house to do so. 211 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,000 So, I mean, I'm not a big fan of these buttons to begin with. 212 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,000 I like Gila's idea of programmable buttons, 213 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,000 or maybe, you know, something as crazy like, 214 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,000 if I hold in the number one on the keypad, it'll open Netflix, 215 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,000 and then you can program number two to open Max 216 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,000 and number three to open Crossy Road. 217 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,000 Like, that's not something I think that would be, you know, 218 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,000 beyond the realm of technical possibility. 219 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:41,000 But my question to you, Emmanuel, is, is the button itself not working only, 220 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,000 or is it the case that you just can't access Netflix by navigating to the app 221 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,000 and opening the app some other way? 222 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,000 No, obviously, the button is working 223 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,000 because it's generating the message on the screen. 224 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,000 What they've done is they've simply changed the requirements 225 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000 so that, as some of these people said, your old TV is no longer supported. 226 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,000 So, it just means get a new TV and stop holding on to old technology, 227 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,000 which works fine in any way. 228 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,000 But can you access Netflix by any other method outside the button? 229 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,000 Oh, yes. 230 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,000 Yeah, so what I wound up doing was using a Roku device 231 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,000 and simply going to the Netflix app on that. 232 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,000 It worked just fine. 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,000 There's no reason for that to happen other than the fact that they can do it, 234 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,000 and a lot of people will be mystified. 235 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,000 Maybe you should just relabel. 236 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Maybe you should just relabel the button with, like, a label maker 237 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,000 and just call it anger. 238 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,000 And then whenever you get yourself angry, just push that button. 239 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,000 We do have a label maker here. 240 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Kyle's the official labeler, and maybe we'll do that. 241 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,000 But, again, you know, I like the idea of programmable buttons, you know, 242 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,000 where you can make the button do different things. 243 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,000 We don't have enough of that. 244 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,000 Go ahead, Rob. 245 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,000 So, the point someone made about just wanting to get a dumb TV 246 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,000 is something I find very interesting nowadays 247 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,000 because the way the TV business works now, 248 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,000 the manufacturers basically get the – 249 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,000 when you buy a television that is designated a television in the store, 250 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000 you'll find it comes with a bunch of apps preloaded on it, 251 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,000 and that is because the price of the television is subsidized 252 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,000 by companies like Netflix and Amazon Prime and Max and whatever else 253 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000 to put their apps on the device. 254 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,000 So it's in front of your eyes right when you start up your new television. 255 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,000 So those companies pay the TV manufacturer, 256 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,000 and the TV manufacturer passes, I guess, some of the savings along. 257 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,000 But also they want their own sort of rent-seeking behavior 258 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,000 and your membership and things like Roku and so on and so on. 259 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,000 So they want to keep making money off of you in any way they can. 260 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000 You can buy a dumb TV, but it's not called that. 261 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000 It's known as a commercial display. 262 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,000 And if you start looking for those, you'll realize that they cost a lot more, 263 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,000 like significant amounts of money more, 264 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,000 than if you walked into a store to buy a television, 265 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,000 even if they're the same size, even if they have the same brightness, 266 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,000 sound, whatever, the same amount of inputs, 267 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,000 because they charge you more to not have the pre-advertised garbage 268 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000 put in front of you. 269 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000 And that also gives the people who make the pre-advertised garbage, 270 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,000 such as the Netflix app, power over how their software works 271 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,000 with the device once you've got it up and running. 272 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:30,000 I think there's also like a symbiotic return for those service providers 273 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,000 because they then capture that subscribership, 274 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000 and that actually in turn motivates people to buy more hardware. 275 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,000 If a TV fails, they're going to want their services back 276 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,000 or get back onto those the way they did on the previous bit of hardware. 277 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,000 So that relationship works back and forth to keep people buying hardware, 278 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,000 whether it's just sort of like a mechanical failure in the power supply 279 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,000 or in some component, or the entire software end of it 280 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,000 becomes unwieldy for the manufacturer. 281 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,000 And their cycles are much less than like even a year 282 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,000 when they're introducing new TVs. 283 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:20,000 And I also think like the way we're doing production now 284 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,000 is incredibly high resolution with digital cinema 285 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,000 and the affordability and the ability to make a lot of programming 286 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000 at that level of picture quality. 287 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,000 And a lot of people have larger and larger resolution devices 288 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,000 to consume that content on. 289 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:48,000 And I think that also drives the manufacturer and the service providers 290 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,000 away from supporting legacy operating systems 291 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,000 that are connected to TVs that are HD, 292 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:01,000 which itself is still a valid and really good looking format. 293 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:07,000 But the sending of like very, very high resolution new programming 294 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:13,000 to downconvert or otherwise provide versions that are of lower resolution 295 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,000 or downconverted for those legacy TVs could become unwieldy 296 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,000 and is also beyond like what the manufacturer is doing 297 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000 as far as the OS is concerned. 298 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,000 The actual service provider has to compensate 299 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:35,000 for doing sort of lower res copies of each of these new programs, 300 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,000 which it takes a little bit of infrastructure to accommodate 301 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,000 and sense that on these different things. 302 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I don't know if that makes sense to anyone. 303 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,000 Go ahead, Rob. 304 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,000 But in the meantime, there was a great post 305 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000 that went around Mastodon a few days ago 306 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,000 where somebody posted a photo of an old portable radio 307 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000 and said this is something my father-in-law had. 308 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,000 It was never opened. 309 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,000 It was from 48 years ago, a GE radio in his garage. 310 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000 And no pairing, no logins, no setup. 311 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,000 It just works. 312 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000 You can listen to us right now with a radio you bought 50 years ago. 313 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,000 Well, not if it's an AM radio. 314 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000 It might be an AM radio only, so he should check that. 315 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Does he have a picture? 316 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,000 It's FM. 317 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Not the case. 318 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,000 Okay, not the case with television 319 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,000 because that was the magic of television in days of old 320 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 where you could turn on a TV set and it would just work. 321 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,000 But now, you know, since we switched to digital, 322 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,000 all those frequencies, all those old TVs no longer work without conversion 323 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,000 and the signals aren't nearly as good. 324 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000 When I was a kid, I was able to pick up distant signals 325 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 on hot summer days for some reason. 326 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,000 And I picked up stations in Kentucky, as far away as Kansas at one point, 327 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,000 from right here in New York. 328 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,000 And there was a certain magic to that. 329 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,000 You can still do that on AM radio. 330 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,000 Despite the fact that the car manufacturers are trying to get rid of AM radio, 331 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 you can still do that and experience that magic of hearing a distant place. 332 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,000 But today, you're just surrounded by just what I call technological blindness 333 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,000 where, yeah, something is cool, it's a good innovation, 334 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,000 but you're giving up something else 335 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,000 and not thinking about what you're really giving up when you do that. 336 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,000 Go ahead, Gaila. 337 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,000 The thing that I was thinking about was in terms of the, I'm sorry, 338 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,000 display terminal, right? 339 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,000 I was thinking about the difference between being in the Windows 340 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:26,000 and Microsoft ecosystem versus, you know, kind of rolling your own in that way. 341 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,000 And what it would take now to create your own home ecosystem for a TV 342 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,000 that you didn't immediately plug into the wall and download three apps 343 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,000 and you're good to go. 344 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Like, I cannot imagine the kind of labor and setup it would take 345 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,000 to have the kind of setup that we have on our home TV now 346 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,000 without those automatic handholds. 347 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And I wonder what we're losing by having those plug-and-play systems ready to go 348 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,000 without, it's not even a lack of curiosity that we have anymore, 349 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,000 but a lack of necessity. 350 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:07,000 You know, you can have 800 apps on your TV in a matter of moments 351 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,000 without even thinking about it 352 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000 and not having to have an internet connection on your television necessarily. 353 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:19,000 But as Manuel was just saying, because of the global system of over the air 354 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,000 not being what it used to be, you know, what can we do for ourselves anymore? 355 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,000 Where is that? 356 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,000 The DIY ethos of television, man, where's it at? 357 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,000 I think also something I'm thinking about is the analytics side, 358 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,000 like what information they're trying to glean from these apps 359 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,000 and that maybe newer, faster displays that can run more apps 360 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:50,000 or the newer software have greater abilities for them to get sort of behavioral 361 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,000 and other information about how you use different service providers 362 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000 that are on that embedded OS. 363 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000 It's all very, it's something that's just a moving target. 364 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,000 It's just constantly new features and new services are being thrown at the consumers. 365 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I love new features and new services and things like that, but I also love simplicity. 366 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,000 I want to be able, and I really should get an over the air antenna for digital TV 367 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,000 because there are all kinds of hidden stations that you can find there. 368 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Unfortunately, you can't get long distance reception occasionally. 369 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:27,000 It's either you get it or you don't, and the signal strength is less than it was in the past. 370 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:33,000 But there is still a degree of magic there, and I urge people to explore as much as possible. 371 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,000 And speaking of the magic of radio, that's what we broadcast on right now. 372 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 That's why we want to continue broadcasting over FM radio, not just over the internet. 373 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Yeah, the internet is great, and that's how we reach the entire world, 374 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000 but radio is the true magic because right now, guarantee at some point, 375 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,000 somebody in New York City is driving right now. 376 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,000 Yeah, I'm talking to you, and you're hearing us, and you don't know who we are. 377 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,000 You've never heard us before. 378 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,000 You just tuned to 99.5 FM, and there are these voices talking on the radio 379 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,000 about something that you're mildly interested in or maybe even more interested in. 380 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,000 Well, that's the magic of radio, that you don't know who's out there, 381 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000 that you don't know how many people really are listening, 382 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,000 that you don't know what lives you could be affecting, 383 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:27,000 that you don't know what station you'll happen upon next if you just keep tuning the FM dial. 384 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,000 When Kyle and I went to Texas not too long ago, we did that a lot. 385 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000 We tuned the dial a lot and heard all kinds of interesting radio stations, 386 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:41,000 and I always suggest people do that rather than just listen to their mixtape or whatever. 387 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:49,000 Listen to what's local, and here in New York City, WBAI, we're real local, 388 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,000 and we've been local since 1960. 389 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000 I'm saying local, not loco. 390 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,000 Since 1960. 391 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,000 Yeah, people are laughing. 392 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:03,000 The reason we stay on the air is because of listeners like you. 393 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:10,000 Yeah, and all you have to do is call 212-209-2950 and pledge support, 394 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:17,000 and you can be a part of this amazing family, a family that has existed now for over 60 years. 395 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,000 Wow, that is something. 396 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:25,000 A family of people coming and going, obviously, but it's magical programming. 397 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,000 If you listen to what goes on over the airwaves here at WBAI, you will hear such a variety. 398 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000 You will hear things that inspire you. 399 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,000 You will hear things that outrage you. 400 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,000 You will hear things that you never thought of before. 401 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Right now, though, we're asking you to give a call to 212-209-2950 402 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,000 and pledge whatever you can to keep this noncommercial radio station going. 403 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,000 Yeah, noncommercial. 404 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Maybe we didn't mention that. 405 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,000 We're a noncommercial radio station, which means we can say things like, 406 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Boy, Netflix is terrible because they don't sponsor us because, you know, we can insult them. 407 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,000 We can insult anybody, really, because we're not beholden to anyone but the listeners. 408 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:09,000 Now, for a pledge of $150 or more, we'll send you a thank you gift of the Off the Hook Anthology, 409 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:20,000 which consists of every program that we have done since 1988 up until the end of 2023 in MP3 format on a flash drive. 410 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000 That's for everybody who pledges $150 or more. 411 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,000 It's called the Off the Hook Anthology. 412 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:32,000 The most important thing, though, is to keep WBAI broadcasting for another 60 years 413 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:40,000 and hopefully over an FM band that is not messed up by advances in technology 414 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:48,000 that will make it hard or impossible for somebody to just turn on the radio and hear a voice they never heard before 415 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,000 or turn on a radio and hear a voice they're expecting to hear. 416 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000 You know, that is something that I think we all grew up with. 417 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,000 It's just that magic of radio, whether it's in our houses or whether it's in our cars. 418 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Increasingly now, what I read is that most people listen in their cars 419 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000 and most people in cars do listen to the radio at some point. 420 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,000 I'm not sure how many people still have radios in their houses. 421 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 Do any of you guys have a radio that you turn on occasionally and say, 422 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,000 Oh, you know what? I'm going to listen to the radio tonight in my den. 423 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,000 Does that still happen, Gila? 424 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,000 I have a clock radio with a CD player in it. 425 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,000 It's an absolute unit. I've been schlepping it around for 20 years. 426 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,000 And it's fascinating. 427 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,000 There have been times when I've checked us on the air from our bedroom. 428 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,000 And no, it's amazing. I love tuning it. 429 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000 And occasionally when I hit the snooze button in the morning, I hit the tuning knob instead. 430 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,000 And then the sound is off, which is great. 431 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,000 So you use it every day. So the radio wakes you up every day. 432 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,000 Yeah. And sometimes when the tuner is off, fuzz wakes me up every day, 433 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,000 which is not a great start to the morning. 434 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,000 Okay. All right. 435 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,000 Wow. I forgot about clock radios. Yeah, that's still a thing. 436 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,000 So I hope people do use radios in their homes more 437 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,000 because some of my fondest memories are listening to, well, first AM radio 438 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,000 because I didn't have an FM radio at first. 439 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000 And then FM and just exploring, knowing every station in the area, 440 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000 knowing a little bit about the history. Go ahead, Alex. 441 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,000 I remember finding this station when I was out on Long Island 442 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:31,000 and I would listen to the radio on a Walkman that was also a radio. 443 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,000 But the cord for the headphones was acting as the antenna. 444 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:43,000 So in order to get WBAI, I had to string the headphone cord up around my bedpost. 445 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000 I remember it being quite a production. 446 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,000 But I got it in and I could listen to this particular show. 447 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 This was the show that I wanted to find. 448 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000 And it felt like some kind of revelation. 449 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:04,000 It felt like I was listening in on these wise gurus from the hacking community 450 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,000 that were imparting knowledge to little old me over in Suffolk County. 451 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,000 And it was pretty cool. It was really magical. 452 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,000 And I think that we've got to encourage that type of thing again. 453 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,000 I mean, this is just, I think, part and parcel of exploring 454 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000 and playing around with technology. 455 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,000 And people forget that radio itself really is quite a dark art. 456 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000 This is why the Flipper Zero is banned in Canada. 457 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,000 It allows you to play with radio frequencies. 458 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,000 It's also why intelligence agencies continue to use shortwave radio 459 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,000 to communicate with operatives in the field. 460 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,000 I mean, radio is something that does not require 461 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,000 any kind of acknowledgement of receipt of the information. 462 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000 That's really, I think, extraordinarily unique and special in today's era 463 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,000 when everything is a log. 464 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,000 When you consider it, when you listen online, you may feel anonymous, 465 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,000 but there is a log of you somewhere. 466 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:06,000 Whether the broadcasting entity is keeping track, 467 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,000 they can see your IP address. 468 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,000 They can see where you're coming from. 469 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,000 They can count how many people are actually listening at any time. 470 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,000 Can't do that on broadcast over the radio waves. 471 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,000 And I think that might drive some control freaks crazy 472 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,000 because they can't charge people a certain ad rate 473 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,000 based on hypothetical numbers, 474 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,000 but it also adds to that magic we're talking about. 475 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,000 And that's what we're asking you to help preserve 476 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000 because, yes, WBAI is online, 477 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,000 but WBAI is also broadcasting off of a very tall building in Times Square 478 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,000 to the tri-state area, and that alone is a miracle. 479 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,000 Now, for pledges of $25 or more, 480 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,000 you get to vote in the WBAI elections and Pacifica elections 481 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,000 and all that fun stuff. 482 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,000 You get to have a voice in decisions that are made, 483 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,000 and that is something that I think is extremely important, 484 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,000 and that's why we're asking for your support. 485 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Now, if you're hearing this at a time when you prefer to go to a website, 486 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 instead of calling 212-209-2950, 487 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:17,000 you can go to the website givetowbai.org, 488 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,000 and on there there's everything you need to know about how to pledge 489 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,000 and thank you gifts and all that kind of thing. 490 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,000 It's all right there for you. 491 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,000 Again, givetowbai.org, phone number 212-209-2950, 492 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,000 and we want to thank our listeners 493 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,000 who have really responded well to all of this over the past few weeks. 494 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,000 Yes, there are a number of crises. 495 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,000 There are always crises here of one sort or another, 496 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,000 but we do keep the content coming out, 497 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,000 and that is what is most important, 498 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,000 and it's your support that makes that possible, 499 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,000 and so many people have called in or gone to the website 500 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,000 and pledged in the name of Off The Hook, 501 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000 and that just inspires us. 502 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,000 It inspires us to keep going and keep doing the things we do. 503 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000 We have some letters you can write to us. 504 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,000 We've got the email address at the end of the program. 505 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,000 This is to Off The Hook. 506 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,000 I'm a WBAI sustaining listener. 507 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,000 Thank you very much. 508 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,000 I've been listening to your show for several years, 509 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,000 have learned a lot about technology in particular. 510 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,000 For safety and security, 511 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,000 I need to find a VPN provider that is lower cost yet effective 512 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,000 at hiding or changing my IP address online 513 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,000 so my activity is encrypted. 514 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,000 Do you have a recent archive program 515 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,000 where you list your VPN recommendations? 516 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,000 Signed, Ms. Robinson. 517 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,000 Well, Ms. Robinson, 518 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,000 we're not going to recommend one company over another, 519 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,000 and I don't really know anything about pricing, 520 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,000 but the concept of a VPN allows you 521 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,000 to watch Eurovision a couple of weeks ago 522 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000 by pretending I was in Denmark, 523 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,000 seeing a four-hour competition without a single commercial, 524 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,000 just like people in Denmark got to do. 525 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,000 Things like that, 526 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,000 that you're not allowed to do in your geographical area 527 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,000 for no reason other than the fact 528 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,000 that certain powerful people say you're not allowed to do that. 529 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,000 That's what a VPN can do for you. 530 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,000 A VPN can also mask your whereabouts 531 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,000 if you're doing something sensitive, 532 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,000 and that does not make you a criminal. 533 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,000 That makes you smart. 534 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,000 That makes you somebody who... 535 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,000 Oh, wow, I just sounded like Trump for a second, didn't I? 536 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,000 No, I didn't mean it like that. 537 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,000 I mean, you know, tech savvy, 538 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,000 knowing that you don't have to always come from your home address. 539 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,000 You can manipulate the technology and come from a different address, 540 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 and there are many reasons why you might want to do that. 541 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,000 Now, there are all kinds of VPN companies out there. 542 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000 Again, I'm not going to list the companies, 543 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,000 but if you do a search online, 544 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,000 just search for VPN, 545 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000 you can do VPN cheap. 546 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000 I don't know who that is. That's not me. 547 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 I don't think that's me because I closed the program that made that noise. 548 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,000 Is it one of you guys? 549 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000 Alex, is it you? No? 550 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000 All right, we're going to track down that noise, whatever it is. 551 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,000 Yeah, that's my thoughts on VPN. 552 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,000 Go ahead, Rob. 553 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,000 Yeah, one thing for anybody who is not familiar, 554 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,000 just to really quickly give the CliffsNotes version of an explanation. 555 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,000 A VPN is a service where instead of connecting directly 556 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,000 to the things you look at over the internet, 557 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,000 they will sit in between that connection as an intermediary. 558 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,000 So everything you do gets bounced through this external server somewhere, 559 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,000 and the operators of the sites and things that you visit 560 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,000 will only see the address of that external server 561 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,000 and not your own IP address. 562 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,000 But one thing that I find very interesting 563 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,000 is that the concept of VPNs, 564 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,000 especially within the past few years, 565 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000 has become kind of mainstream 566 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,000 to the point where there is a lot of help out there 567 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000 if you do some searches 568 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,000 to not only find one, choose one, 569 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,000 but also set it up, maintain it, and so on. 570 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,000 There are ads for VPN companies on the subway now, 571 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,000 and we're at that level of the general public 572 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,000 kind of starting to understand how this is useful, 573 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000 how it can be an important part of your digital life. 574 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,000 And I've seen on forums and things 575 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,000 about things entirely non-technical, 576 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,000 but somebody wants to accomplish something 577 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,000 and realizes, oh, yeah, I just used a VPN. 578 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,000 It's really out there, and it's really an interesting thing 579 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000 to read about, get into, if you're not into it already. 580 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000 Go ahead, Alex. 581 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,000 One thing I would add to this, too, 582 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,000 if you want to consider what the purpose is of the VPN 583 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,000 that you intend to use, 584 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,000 if you simply want to remain anonymous, 585 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,000 there are a lot of VPNs out there that don't have logging, 586 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,000 that advertise they don't have logging. 587 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,000 I will tell you this. 588 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000 I think a lot of them have more logs than they let on, 589 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,000 but at least you would want one 590 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,000 that would be very privacy-conscious. 591 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,000 On the other hand, if you want to use a VPN 592 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,000 to get around censorship, let's say, 593 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,000 or access a service from a geographical area 594 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,000 that is otherwise geofenced, 595 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,000 then you would want to make sure that you're looking for a VPN 596 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,000 that would probably have something called 597 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,000 a dedicated IP address 598 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000 in the country from which you want to appear 599 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,000 that your traffic is originating. 600 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,000 So, for instance, if I wanted to access, let's say, 601 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,000 Netflix in Belgium, 602 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,000 you would want to have a Belgian IP address, 603 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,000 and a lot of services, a lot of VPN services 604 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000 will offer you a dedicated IP address in other countries 605 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,000 where they have servers for relatively cheap, 606 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,000 for really just a few dollars a month, 607 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,000 and that becomes really handy 608 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,000 if you want to access things like the BBC 609 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,000 while you're not in the UK, 610 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:56,000 and it can also unlock a whole bunch of programs 611 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000 for your existing services. 612 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000 So, for instance, if that Netflix button 613 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,000 that Emmanuel was complaining about earlier in the program 614 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,000 actually had worked, and he was connected to a VPN 615 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,000 that made it appear as if his traffic 616 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000 was originating from London, 617 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,000 he would get a lot of different selections on Netflix 618 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000 that aren't available in the United States. 619 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,000 He would get to watch things like In the Loop and Peep Show, 620 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,000 and you know what is also really weird, too, 621 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,000 is it's weirdly hard to stream The Office, 622 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,000 the American version of The Office, 623 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,000 in the United States these days, 624 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,000 but it seems like the entirety of it 625 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000 is streaming from the UK. 626 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,000 So you get all these other different tips and tricks 627 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,000 that you can do with VPNs as well. 628 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,000 They're fun things to play with. 629 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,000 Yeah, for a lot better than just looking at 630 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,000 all the episodes of The Office. 631 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000 There are all kinds of things that you can do, 632 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000 and it's on Comedy Central all the time, Alex, 633 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,000 so, yeah, it's not hard to find. 634 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,000 For the folks, geofencing, 635 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000 that's basically what we're talking about. 636 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,000 That's where you're restricted from doing something 637 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000 simply because you're in a particular place, correct? 638 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,000 Yeah, if a site only wants people 639 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,000 from a certain part of the world to be able to see it, 640 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,000 wants people from another part of the world 641 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,000 to not be able to see it, 642 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,000 you can use a VPN to trick the site 643 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,000 into thinking that you're in the part of the world 644 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,000 they feel is okay. 645 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,000 Now, people are going to ask this, 646 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000 so I might as well answer it now. 647 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,000 What's the difference between what we're talking about 648 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,000 and something like Tor? 649 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000 Tor is kind of a crapshoot 650 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,000 because it is decentralized, 651 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000 more decentralized than a VPN, 652 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,000 which is all one service 653 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,000 that you're bouncing everything through, 654 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,000 but Tor also, you can't really control 655 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,000 where the other side of the connection comes out 656 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,000 because it's random by its nature, 657 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,000 and it's re-randomized every time you start it up, 658 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,000 so you can't really go through Tor 659 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,000 and say, I want to be coming from this part of the world 660 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000 or that part of the world 661 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,000 in a dependable manner as easily as you can with a VPN. 662 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,000 Also, Tor is not responsible for such things. 663 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,000 Alex, you have something. 664 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000 Yeah, I think the other distinction is that Tor, 665 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,000 known as the onion router, right? 666 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,000 You think about the image of the onion. 667 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,000 It has lots of layers. 668 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,000 That's what onions are known for. 669 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,000 We always talk about peeling back the layers of the onions, 670 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,000 and when you're using the Tor router, 671 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,000 your traffic is going to take lots of different stops. 672 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,000 It's not going to just go through one other network 673 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000 and then pop out somewhere else. 674 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,000 It's going to go, let's say, to, who knows, 675 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,000 you know, Liberia, then into Bangkok, 676 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,000 then it'll pop over to Istanbul, 677 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,000 then it'll go back into St. Petersburg, 678 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,000 then to Belgium, 679 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000 and then come out the other side in New York. 680 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,000 I mean, who knows, right? 681 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,000 But it's also, Tor is generally a lot slower 682 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,000 than using a VPN for that reason. 683 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,000 Yeah, and while VPN services might be optimized 684 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,000 for things like watching high bandwidth video 685 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,000 or, you know, playing data-intensive games 686 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,000 or anything else that might take a large chunk of a connection, 687 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,000 if you're doing that sort of thing over Tor, 688 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,000 it tends to be seen as sort of abusing the network 689 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,000 because people are trying to use it 690 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,000 for smaller text-based things, 691 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,000 and so it's not really encouraged to use Tor 692 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,000 for that sort of purpose. 693 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,000 Oh, I just wanted to reiterate, 694 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,000 I mean, the thoughts Rob expressed 695 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,000 were, like, spot-on as far as I was concerned, 696 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,000 just as far as the acceptability, 697 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,000 like the idea of ads for tunneling software 698 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,000 in subway tunnels, it's pretty funny. 699 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,000 But the VPN acronym, for those who don't know, 700 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,000 is Virtual Private Network, 701 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,000 is the definition of that term, 702 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,000 and these service providers are using 703 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,000 what is a protocol that you can develop 704 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,000 and run your own system outside of all of these as well, 705 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,000 which is worth mentioning. 706 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Perhaps a little bit more work is needed 707 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,000 to build that yourself, 708 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,000 but it is meant for all kinds of businesses 709 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000 and personal uses 710 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:11,000 as a part of the IP protocol 711 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,000 that we use all the time, 712 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,000 and it has been established and used 713 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,000 for quite some time, 714 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,000 but it is much more geared 715 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,000 towards creating a full network connection 716 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,000 versus all of the layers in this. 717 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,000 What I also know is termed a hidden service, 718 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,000 so Tor requires special software 719 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000 that's looking for this particular domain, 720 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,000 .onion addressing and the like, 721 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,000 so there's distinctions, 722 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,000 and yeah, a higher bandwidth traffic 723 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,000 is a little bit harder, 724 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,000 and it can be spotty 725 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,000 because the network is decentralized 726 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,000 and changing, it's sort of amorphous. 727 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,000 Well, you can get more information on Tor 728 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,000 by going to torproject.org, 729 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,000 S-T-O-R, project.org. 730 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,000 I should also point out that both with Tor 731 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,000 and certain VPNs, 732 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000 sites like Google try and block them 733 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,000 because they don't approve of us 734 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,000 taking control of the technology. 735 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,000 In fact, good luck trying to access YouTube 736 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,000 using a Tor browser. 737 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,000 It's almost impossible sometimes. 738 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,000 That's the kind of opposition 739 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,000 that we tend to run into 740 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000 when we try and change the technology 741 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000 a little bit. 742 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,000 Go ahead, Kyle. 743 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,000 Another thing I would mention 744 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 is getting around geofencing is one use, 745 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,000 but if your activities, 746 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,000 if whatever it is you're doing online 747 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,000 is disallowed, say, in one place, 748 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,000 but you're testing some network elsewhere, 749 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000 VPNs are used for this as well, 750 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,000 sort of jurisdictional hopping 751 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,000 with whatever work you're doing 752 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000 versus where that work is originating from. 753 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000 That's all I want to say about that. 754 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,000 We have another letter. 755 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,000 That's right, we get multiple letters. 756 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,000 Look how much time we spent on that one. 757 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,000 Hey, I don't really know 758 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,000 who else to discuss this with, 759 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,000 but here goes. 760 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,000 I can't tell you how many letters 761 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,000 begin that way. 762 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,000 I have a French cell subscription, 763 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000 and I'm using it roaming in Switzerland 764 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,000 because it's so much cheaper 765 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,000 than a Swiss plan. 766 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,000 It's ridiculous, but that's another topic. 767 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,000 Yeah, Switzerland is extremely expensive. 768 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,000 So I have this number 769 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,000 from my health insurance 770 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,000 I can call to speak to a doctor, 771 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,000 and I called it with my French line 772 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,000 while roaming. 773 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,000 Every time the call is answered, 774 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,000 I get this recording 775 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,000 of a random conversation 776 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,000 between a few seemingly U.S. English speakers. 777 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,000 It's always the same conversation. 778 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,000 That is, when redialing the number, 779 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,000 it starts off at the same point, 780 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,000 plays the same audio, 781 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,000 and it drops the call 782 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,000 after a variable amount of time. 783 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,000 If I call that same number 784 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,000 with a Swiss cell line, 785 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,000 then I get the right service, 786 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,000 my health insurance's doctor, 787 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,000 and not the random conversation. 788 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,000 I'm completely puzzled by this. 789 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,000 I don't know anyone 790 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,000 who is into freaking 791 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,000 or knows anything about telephones 792 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000 or knows anything about telephone systems, 793 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,000 but I thought you guys 794 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,000 might be able to appreciate 795 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,000 the weirdness of it 796 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,000 and maybe even figure out 797 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,000 what's going on. 798 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,000 And who are these people 799 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,000 on the recording? 800 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,000 Where was it made? 801 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,000 How long ago? 802 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Why am I hearing it? 803 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 I have a video recording of it 804 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,000 on speakerphone 805 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,000 and the number I'm calling. 806 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,000 It's rather large, 807 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,000 so I'm not emailing it. 808 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,000 I'd love to figure this out. 809 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Let me know if this is something 810 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,000 you're curious to talk about more. 811 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,000 From Pierre. 812 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,000 Well, Pierre, 813 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,000 the first thing I think you should do 814 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,000 is make an audio recording of this, 815 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,000 a video recording. 816 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,000 There are sites 817 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,000 where you can upload your video 818 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,000 and turn it into audio 819 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,000 if you don't have the software 820 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,000 to do that yourself, 821 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,000 and then send that to us 822 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,000 so we can hear it. 823 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,000 You say it's a random conversation, 824 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,000 but then you say 825 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,000 it's always the same conversation, 826 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,000 so I'm a little confused. 827 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Is it always the same phrases being said? 828 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,000 And what are those phrases? 829 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,000 We can help figure out what this is 830 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,000 and why it could be 831 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,000 some kind of telephone company recording 832 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,000 or something weird, 833 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,000 or maybe it's a recording 834 00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,000 that's supposed to play 835 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,000 from the phone company 836 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,000 and somebody somehow wrote over it 837 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,000 with something else. 838 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,000 I don't know. 839 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,000 It's a bizarre scenario, 840 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,000 but it's certainly possible. 841 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,000 This sounds very bizarre, 842 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,000 but I'm curious. 843 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:11,000 I'd like to know more. 844 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,000 How about you guys? 845 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,000 I am so curious about this. 846 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,000 It has been a long time, 847 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,000 and I'm an old phone freak, 848 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,000 and it has been a very long time 849 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,000 since I've been able to be presented 850 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,000 with some sort of glitch 851 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,000 in routing like this, 852 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,000 and I've never heard 853 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,000 of something like this happening 854 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,000 just routing a call different ways 855 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000 depending on where it's coming from. 856 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,000 I think we've all, 857 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,000 those of us who lived in the 90s 858 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,000 and further back, 859 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,000 we all can remember crossed lines. 860 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,000 We pick up the phone 861 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,000 and all of a sudden 862 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,000 you're talking to somebody 863 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,000 you didn't call. 864 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,000 Has anybody not experienced that 865 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,000 in our group? 866 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,000 We all have? 867 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,000 I can't tell you. 868 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,000 Yeah, we have. 869 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,000 Okay. 870 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,000 Well, it doesn't happen much anymore, 871 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,000 if at all. 872 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,000 I remember back, 873 00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,000 I grew up in what's known 874 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000 as the number five crossbar switch. 875 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000 There were periods of time, 876 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,000 I don't know what caused this, 877 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,000 maybe a well-informed listener 878 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,000 out there can tell us, 879 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,000 but sometimes you would pick up the phone 880 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,000 and instead of a dial tone, 881 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,000 you'd immediately get connected 882 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,000 to somebody else. 883 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,000 Now, when this happened, 884 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,000 it happened a lot. 885 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,000 In other words, 886 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,000 it wouldn't happen for weeks 887 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,000 and all of a sudden 888 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,000 it would start happening 889 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,000 almost every time 890 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,000 you picked up the phone. 891 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,000 It was so much fun 892 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,000 that my friends and I 893 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,000 would immediately contact each other 894 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,000 saying, 895 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,000 it's happening again. 896 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,000 And when it was happening, 897 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,000 we could get away 898 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,000 with all kinds of mischief. 899 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,000 I was at the Stony Brook campus 900 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,000 and I would be constantly 901 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000 picking up the phone, 902 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,000 being connected to people. 903 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,000 I convinced people 904 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,000 there was a curfew going on 905 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,000 and that they were not 906 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,000 to leave their dormitories. 907 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,000 And they believed me 908 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,000 and they spread the word. 909 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,000 It wasn't hard to do this. 910 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,000 But there's all kinds of other, 911 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,000 you meet all sorts of people. 912 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,000 One fun thing that we did was 913 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,000 we talked to the person 914 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000 who had just picked up the phone 915 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,000 on their end, 916 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,000 asking them what they intended to do. 917 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Why did you just pick up your phone? 918 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,000 And they said, 919 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,000 well, I was going to call this person. 920 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,000 I said, well, 921 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,000 we have to make sure, 922 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,000 we have to manually place 923 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,000 phone calls now. 924 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,000 That's required by law. 925 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,000 Tell us the number you're calling 926 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,000 and we'll let them know 927 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,000 to expect your call. 928 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,000 And that's exactly what we did. 929 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,000 We would call them and say, 930 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,000 you're going to get a call 931 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,000 from this person. 932 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,000 And they would be just as mystified 933 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,000 as everybody else. 934 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,000 All kinds of fun 935 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,000 that you used to be able to have 936 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,000 that I don't think people 937 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,000 are having anymore. 938 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,000 I'd love to hear 939 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,000 about other adventures though, 940 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,000 other things that people 941 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,000 are having fun with 942 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,000 with phone networks. 943 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,000 Absolutely. 944 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,000 And the more I think about this, 945 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,000 the more I'm wondering 946 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,000 if it is, 947 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,000 if not itself, 948 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,000 an error message 949 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,000 at the phone company, 950 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000 at some phone company 951 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,000 in between A and B, 952 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,000 but maybe routing 953 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,000 to where there should be 954 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,000 some kind of error message 955 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:58,000 and isn't anymore 956 00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,000 because not a lot of those 957 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,000 aren't used anymore. 958 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,000 Some just kind of weirdness 959 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,000 along the way like that. 960 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,000 Or they're just calling 961 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,000 someone's weirdly set up 962 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,000 answering machine. 963 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,000 Well, I want to hear, 964 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,000 I want to hear that recording. 965 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,000 I really do. 966 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,000 I definitely want to hear that. 967 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,000 Hey, we have only 968 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,000 a couple minutes left, 969 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,000 but I wanted to read 970 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,000 a crazy story 971 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,000 because there's always 972 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,000 crazy stories in the news. 973 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,000 A photographer 974 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,000 has sued a woman 975 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000 who posted an image 976 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,000 of her grandmother's apartment 977 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,000 that featured wallpaper 978 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,000 that apparently he designed. 979 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,000 Okay, what happened here 980 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,000 was that the grandmother 981 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,000 moved out of her apartment. 982 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,000 She's no longer able 983 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,000 to live there. 984 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,000 She moved in 985 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,000 with her granddaughter 986 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,000 so that she could maintain 987 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,000 the cost of caring 988 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,000 for her grandmother. 989 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,000 The granddaughter 990 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,000 took over the apartment 991 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,000 and rented it out 992 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,000 as a vacation property. 993 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,000 She advertised 994 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,000 the apartment 995 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,000 on a rental website 996 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,000 and it included photos 997 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:54,000 of the property 998 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,000 on the listing. 999 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,000 Eight years later, 1000 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,000 the granddaughter 1001 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,000 received a warning letter 1002 00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,000 for copyright infringement 1003 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,000 from a Canadian company 1004 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,000 because she had posted 1005 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,000 an image of a room 1006 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,000 in her grandmother's apartment 1007 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,000 that featured 1008 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,000 this guy Bones 1009 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,000 photo-based wallpaper. 1010 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,000 Yeah, 1011 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Stefan Bones, 1012 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,000 his photo was spotted 1013 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,000 listing photos 1014 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,000 for the apartment 1015 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:21,000 and according to a report 1016 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,000 by the German news publication 1017 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,000 Heiz.de, 1018 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,000 the photographer 1019 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,000 is now suing 1020 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,000 the granddaughter 1021 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,000 in Cologne Regional Court 1022 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,000 in Cologne, Germany. 1023 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,000 In the lawsuit, 1024 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,000 Bones alleges 1025 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,000 that while he may have authorized 1026 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,000 the printing of his photo 1027 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,000 on the wallpaper, 1028 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,000 he did not authorize 1029 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,000 the reproduction of the photo 1030 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,000 on the wall 1031 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,000 in the image 1032 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,000 posted by the landlady 1033 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,000 on the vacation property 1034 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,000 rental website. 1035 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,000 Oh my God. 1036 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,000 Have we all lost our damn minds? 1037 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,000 So somebody 1038 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000 shows a picture of a room 1039 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,000 and this guy actually 1040 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,000 has the audacity 1041 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,000 to sue them 1042 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,000 for copyright infringement. 1043 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,000 He claims 1044 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,000 the making available 1045 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,000 of the photo of the wall 1046 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:00,000 is an infringement 1047 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,000 of copyright law. 1048 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,000 He's also alleging 1049 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,000 the grandmother 1050 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,000 infringed his moral rights 1051 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,000 because she did not find out 1052 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000 that he was the photographer 1053 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,000 behind the wallpaper 1054 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,000 and did not credit him 1055 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,000 on the property rental website. 1056 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,000 You know what? 1057 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,000 I credit this guy 1058 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,000 with being a first... 1059 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,000 Well, I can't say that. 1060 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,000 Alex, 1061 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,000 you're our resident lawyer here. 1062 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,000 Stand up for your profession. 1063 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,000 This sounds really idiotic 1064 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,000 on so many ways 1065 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,000 and so many levels here. 1066 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Emmanuel, 1067 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,000 is it the case 1068 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,000 that the woman 1069 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,000 who took the photo 1070 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,000 was actually sued 1071 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,000 or they just received 1072 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,000 some kind of 1073 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,000 cease and desist letter? 1074 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:44,000 It sounds like 1075 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,000 they just received 1076 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,000 a threatening letter. 1077 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,000 Well, my understanding 1078 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,000 is she was in Canada 1079 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,000 and this is all happening 1080 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,000 in Germany, 1081 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,000 but these days 1082 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,000 you send a letter 1083 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,000 like that to somebody 1084 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,000 it can scare them. 1085 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,000 Absolutely. 1086 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,000 It absolutely can 1087 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,000 and it's an abuse 1088 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,000 of I think 1089 00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,000 the legal process 1090 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,000 for doing that too. 1091 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,000 I mean, 1092 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,000 there is this concept 1093 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,000 of de minimis non curat lex 1094 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,000 where the law 1095 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,000 doesn't care for trifles. 1096 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,000 You're not necessarily 1097 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,000 going to have damages 1098 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,000 I think 1099 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,000 from this type 1100 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,000 of infringement. 1101 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,000 The other thing 1102 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000 about this is 1103 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,000 it seems like 1104 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,000 this might have been 1105 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:16,000 born out of 1106 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:17,000 some overly 1107 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,000 aggressive 1108 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,000 or zealous 1109 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,000 copyright protection 1110 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,000 third-party service. 1111 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,000 That's what it sounds 1112 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,000 like to me 1113 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,000 that maybe this photographer 1114 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,000 who originally 1115 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,000 owned the copyright 1116 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,000 to this particular wallpaper 1117 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,000 is using some 1118 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,000 third-party service 1119 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,000 to identify 1120 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,000 infringements online. 1121 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,000 We're going to have 1122 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:36,000 to continue this conversation 1123 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,000 over on YouTube 1124 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,000 in overtime. 1125 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,000 YouTube.com 1126 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,000 is channel 2600 1127 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,000 to continue 1128 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,000 at 8 o'clock 1129 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,000 over there. 1130 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,000 Gila, did you have 1131 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,000 a closing thought on this? 1132 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:46,000 I did, 1133 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,000 but I'm going to 1134 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,000 save it for overtime. 1135 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,000 Okay. 1136 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,000 That's going to 1137 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,000 just about do it 1138 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,000 for us here tonight. 1139 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I want to thank 1140 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,000 everybody for listening. 1141 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,000 You can write to us 1142 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,000 oth at 2600.com 1143 00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,000 and please remember 1144 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,000 to support WBAI 1145 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,000 212-209-2950 1146 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,000 and give to WBAI.org. 1147 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,000 We'll be back here 1148 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,000 next week 1149 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,000 and on overtime 1150 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:14,000 YouTube.com 1151 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,000 slash channel 2600. 1152 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,000 We'll see you there. 1153 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,000 Good night. 1154 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,000 The loudspeaker 1155 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,000 spoke up and said 1156 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,000 Christianity is stupid. 1157 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,000 Christianity is stupid. 1158 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,000 Christianity is stupid. 1159 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000 Christianity is stupid. 1160 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,000 Christianity is stupid. 1161 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,000 Christianity is stupid. 1162 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,000 Christianity is stupid. 1163 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,000 Christianity is stupid. 1164 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,000 Communism is good. 1165 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,000 Communism is good. 1166 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,000 Communism is good. 1167 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Communism is good. 1168 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,000 Can you hear that? 1169 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,000 Give up. 1170 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:34,000 Can you hear that? 1171 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,000 Give up. 1172 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 Give up. 1173 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,000 Give up. 1174 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,000 Give up. 1175 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,000 Christianity is stupid. 1176 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,000 Christianity is stupid. 1177 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,000 Christianity is stupid. 1178 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,000 Christianity is stupid. 1179 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,000 Give up! Give up! Give up! 1180 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:05,000 Communism is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1181 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,000 Christianity is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1182 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:12,000 Christianity is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1183 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,000 Give up! Give up! Give up! 1184 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,000 Communism is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1185 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,000 Communism is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1186 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Give up! Give up! Give up! 1187 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,000 From five o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night!! 1188 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,000 Give up! Give up! Give up! 1189 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,000 From five o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night!! 1190 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,000 Give up! Give up! Give up! 1191 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,000 From five o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night!! 1192 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,000 Communism is stupid! Communism is stupid! 1193 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,000 Christianity is stupid! 1194 00:52:52,000 --> 00:53:22,000 Good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good 1195 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:27,760 good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good 1196 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,800 good, good, good, good, good, good, good 1197 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:40,220 Sharpe as usual 1198 00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:44,880 and avoid panic Planning 1199 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:55,280 Usually, the left would focus on the conditions under which people make choices, how power 1200 00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,540 creates those conditions. But apparently, that approach isn't relevant when men's sexual 1201 00:54:00,540 --> 00:54:02,080 pleasure is at stake. 1202 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:08,100 Robert Jensen, quoting from his current article in Counterpunch magazine, Radical Feminism 1203 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:13,640 and the Failures of the Left. In it, he takes the left to task for refusing to apply its 1204 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:20,200 anti-capitalist critique of how systems of power work to the oppression of women. 1205 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,680 Professor Jensen will be our guest on Joy of Resistance this Thursday between 11am and 1206 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:32,680 noon and will take your phone calls. That's Thursday, May 30th, 11am, Joy of Resistance, 1207 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:39,680 where we put the left and feminism back together again.