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The director of the Hidden Planetarium, Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, and specialist on chemical

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and biological warfare, Dr. Leonard Cole, author of The Eleventh Plague.

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Refreshments will be served.

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And autographed books from all these writers will be available.

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Again, this special event will take place right here at WBAI Studios, 120 Wall Street,

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10th floor, Friday, February 5th at 6.30 p.m.

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For more details, call 212-209-2828.

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That's 212-209-2828.

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Hi, I'm Simone Maxman, program director of WBAI Radio.

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As many of you know, we have been airing the Senate's impeachment trial of President Clinton.

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A few of you have called to ask why we chose to air this broadcast.

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Some even suggested that it's a waste of time.

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Well, that may be the case to a few of you, but it is the opinion of many of our listeners

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that this is an historic event with significant historical implications for us all.

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We've decided to continue airing the trial this week.

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This also means that we will suspend our January membership drive effective Tuesday, January

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19th at noon until the trial is over.

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We're grateful to all of you who have contributed to our fun drive during the first week, and

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we regret any inconvenience these changes might cause.

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But as I'm sure you know, we are all in this together.

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Thank you for being with us, and please encourage others to join us here at WBAI, listening

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sponsored Pacifica Radio, 99.5 FM, in New York.

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And it's eight o'clock on a Tuesday, and on this particular Tuesday, that means it's

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time for Off the Hook.

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Get up, be on your way.

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And good evening to everybody.

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The program is Off the Hook.

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This is Emanuel Goldstein here with you.

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You know, we're originally not supposed to be here tonight, but because of all the goings

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on down in Washington, D.C., well, as you just heard, our fundraiser got kind of messed

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up as a result of all that.

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I still think the whole thing is a plot just to mess up the WBAI's fundraiser, you know,

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the whole Monica Lewinsky Clinton thing started a year ago just so that we would have to delay

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our fundraiser for a couple of weeks.

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But who's to say, you know?

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Anyway, so we probably won't be on next week because the fundraiser is beginning next Monday

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again.

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I'm not sure about the week after that.

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But again, check the website, and also, of course, check WBAI.

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You might want to call in just to find out for sure.

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In fact, that's what I'm going to be doing.

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I'll be calling in to find out if we're on.

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But we're on tonight, so let's treasure the time we have together on this particular evening.

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Which means less music and more talk.

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Because there's plenty to talk about.

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A lot of it is kind of bad, so that's why I'm going to try and stay happy.

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Because otherwise, it's just too depressing to go on.

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Well, first, happy news.

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Age verification systems required under a federal law designed to keep online pornography

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away from children would be inexpensive, secure, and simple to run, a computer expert testified

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on Monday.

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Dan R. Olson Jr. contradicted testimony given last week by computer experts and website

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operators who said such systems would increase costs and decrease traffic to their pages,

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effectively putting them out of business.

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He also testified that encryption systems, which encode credit card numbers to foil online

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theft, are good enough that consumers should not worry about becoming victims of fraud

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any more than they would when using their cards in public.

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If I wanted to steal a credit card, I'd become a waiter in a restaurant, said Olson.

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The American Civil Liberties Union is challenging a law which would require commercial websites

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to collect a credit card number or some other access code as proof of age before allowing

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users to view material deemed harmful to minors.

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Yeah, you know, a credit card number, that's a surefire way to prove that somebody is of

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age.

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I mean, how's a minor going to use a credit card number?

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It doesn't make any sense.

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It's impossible.

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Yeah.

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Who are these people that come up with these things?

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Anyway, the law's supporters say it is a sensible way to keep internet pornography away from

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children.

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The ACLU, however, contends the law violates the First Amendment and claims mainstream

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sites may inadvertently be affected.

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Here's the weird part.

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The ACLU last week argued that parts of the hearing should be closed to the public to

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protect some websites from releasing proprietary information.

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Several news organizations filed a motion to keep the hearing open.

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It's kind of weird for the ACLU to want to close a hearing.

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Ruling Monday said that no part of the proceeding would be closed.

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Instead, the information would be allowed as evidence but not openly discussed in court

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with the sensitive material kept under seal.

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Whatever kind of sensitive material that may be.

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Isaac, how are you today?

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Oh, I'm fine.

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Yourself?

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Confused.

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I got a letter from EasyPass.

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Every time I get a letter from EasyPass, I get confused.

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They have this way of accusing you of things without any kind of evidence to support them.

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They sent me a nasty letter a few weeks ago saying, you ran a toll for 50 cents somewhere

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and now you're responsible for $10.50 and soon it may get even worse than that.

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We may send constables for you and you could be sentenced to the electric chair and all

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kinds of horrible things.

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And so I called them.

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And when you call them, they're always really nice.

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They're these really nice people.

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You know, like grandmothers sitting in rocking chairs.

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And you can't believe they're the same people that sent out these horrible letters.

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And I said, look, I didn't run a toll.

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I mean, if I did run a toll, well, I didn't know I was running a toll.

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I have EasyPass after all.

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Probably didn't register.

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He said, yeah, you know, that happens.

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If you're in one of the upstate EasyPasses, they're not quite the same as the EasyPasses

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downstate.

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And it may say that it worked, but it didn't really work.

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So that's why you got this notice.

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And the funny thing is the notice acted as if they had sent out a notice beforehand.

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And of course they didn't.

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That was the first time I ever got any notifications there was a problem after they had added a

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$10 penalty to it.

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So she said, just write us a check for the amount of the toll.

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I had to write a check for $0.50.

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Felt like a complete idiot.

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And I wrote a little explanation on the back of the notice saying I'm not paying the $10

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thing because they said I didn't have to do that.

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And please see that your thing works better in the future.

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Doesn't scare me to death.

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But that wasn't the end of it.

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The next nasty letter I got came only recently.

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They said, thank you for your cooperation in exchanging your EasyPass tags.

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Our records indicate that these two sentences totally contradict each other.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

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And our records indicate that although you have received your replacement tags, you have

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failed to return the tags originally issued to you.

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And of course, I disputed that because I had sent one back.

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But apparently, when I called them, again, they were very nice.

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Different person, but just as nice.

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And I apparently sent back the wrong one because there was no difference indicated.

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I have one for the 2600 van and I have one for my car.

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But when they sent me two of them, they didn't exactly differentiate van-car.

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So I put one in the van and one in the car.

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And wouldn't you know it, I put the wrong one in the van and the wrong one in the car.

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They say they've had a long string of incidents involving me that I didn't even know about.

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Nobody told me about these, where I'm driving through a toll booth with the wrong vehicle.

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Yeah, with the wrong vehicle.

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And I said, this isn't a problem.

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This is, you know, no big deal.

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You should not feel like a criminal.

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But in the future, and this is something I thought was very interesting, in the future,

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within a couple of months, it will be a problem.

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Yes, it will be a problem if your car does not match your tag.

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So your E-ZPass tag is going to have to have the information that your car matches when they take a picture of it.

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They take a picture of your car every time you go through there.

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I have to wonder why, you know?

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Why is it so important to them that there's no price difference?

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The price is exactly the same, but they want to make sure that you're tagged and that's who you are

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and you're where you're supposed to be at a certain time.

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So in any event, I sent back the wrong one.

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Apparently that one got lost in the mail somehow.

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I have the one that I was supposed to send back, which I haven't been using

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because that's sitting in my van, which hasn't been running.

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And now I have to send that one back.

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Switch the car one.

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Oh, I have to do all kinds of crazy things.

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Basically, it got really, really annoying and complicated, but I think it's straightened out now.

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But I learned something interesting out of it, and that's that they're going to be monitoring cars,

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monitoring the exact type of car.

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They have been doing that since the beginning.

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They have been, but they haven't been enforcing it.

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I didn't know they were going to be enforcing it.

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They're keeping databases, and they're keeping track of just who you are,

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and if your plate doesn't match your EasyPass tag, they definitely know this.

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They say it so that they can prevent fraud from somebody breaking into your car.

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How am I defrauding myself if I have two vehicles and I choose to flip-flop my EasyPass tags?

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You're not defrauding yourself.

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You're just making their life more of a hassle because their database doesn't exactly fit.

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I think I'm going to do it anyway just to see what happens.

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You're going to get in trouble.

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If they told you, you're going to be in trouble.

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Here's the thing.

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I'm not just a radio show host here.

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I'm also what I call a test consumer, somebody who goes out there and provokes the system into reacting.

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By doing that, I can warn people, don't do this because this is what will happen to you.

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I see.

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You may have to accept some calls from prison, but it's worth it.

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It's worth it if I am able to warn even one person not to follow in my ways.

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Now, speaking of bad things to do, the pull of the Internet was just too strong for Shana Freed to resist.

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The 17-year-old Washington High student—I don't know.

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Washington High where?

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You know how many Washington Highs there are?

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Where did this come from?

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Okay, well, I'll try and track that down.

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I think it's Philadelphia.

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I'm pretty sure it's Philadelphia.

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The 17-year-old Washington High student couldn't stop her excessive usage when her grades started to slide.

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She couldn't stop when her parents took her to a psychologist, then cut off her major online service.

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That's a weird, rare phrasing.

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Cut off her major—as if she still has a minor online service somewhere, but that was her major online service.

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Okay, now the Busselton—anybody know where Busselton is?

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It might be in Pennsylvania.

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The Busselton girl is missing, and her worried parents think that Shana's addiction to the Internet is the key to her sudden disappearance.

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Internet strikes again!

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Strikes terror into the hearts of parents.

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Even though she seemed very happy at home, her mother said, she told her friends she was very unhappy.

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Shana disappeared from school last Monday after a seemingly normal day, according to her parents.

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But the Freeds believed Shana had been making secret preparations for something.

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She'd done a load of laundry the night before, which was rare, according to her mother.

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She apparently took with her to school Monday a few new CDs her parents had bought her, and her beloved collection of Beanie Babies.

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That's it, then.

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Perhaps most alarming, the Freeds later—I almost said the Feds. It looks very similar.

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The Freeds later discovered that Shana had deleted all of her online chat files.

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The Freeds are extremely worried, having posted missing flyers of their oldest daughter at shops, malls, and with authorities all over the city.

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If they tried ICQ.

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Yeah, if they really were intelligent here, they'd be posting this on the Net, you know?

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They say the Net grabbed her. Well, maybe that's the place you should look.

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We all love you, the note says. We want to work this out. Please call.

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Recently, the Freeds—this story actually was dated January 18th, so for all I know, she's been found one way or another.

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Yesterday, the Freeds expressed hope that Shana—I'm sorry, it's spelled so weird, I'm going to say it differently every time I see it.

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Shana, I think, is the right way to say it.

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Shana is with one of the online friends she chatted with most, either in New Hampshire, California, or Texas.

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If they know that much, it really shouldn't be that hard to narrow it down.

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That's true.

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They want to assure Shana she is in no trouble. We want to make sure she is safe.

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She didn't take any of her parents' credit cards when she left. That's odd.

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Isn't everybody who uses the Internet engaged in credit card fraud?

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Oh, I always thought as much.

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She's probably stealing other people's credit cards. That's got to be it.

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Okay.

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Yeah. And she only had a little money of her own.

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The police department's Northeast detectives are now investigating,

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and several friends are helping to distribute flyers, which does a fat load of good if she's gone out of state.

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Parents have to explain to children that what you see is not always what you get when communicating online,

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said Robert R. Butterworth, a Los Angeles expert in children and trauma.

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Butterworth, who is the father of a 13-year-old Internet user—

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Oh, they're not children anymore.

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They don't call them children anymore. They're Internet users.

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A 13-year-old Internet user says he has found two types of young people who get hooked on the Net.

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Kids who use it because they get more out of it than school are one type.

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They're bright people. They get hooked on it in an innocent way.

230
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,760
They crave information.

231
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,760
The second type is a child who feels very different from others.

232
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A lot of times, alienated people will get into it because you find like-minded people from other regions, Butterworth said.

233
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,760
He's not related to the tub of plastic that you see on the Internet.

234
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,760
Yeah, I was wondering.

235
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,760
They say that here.

236
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,760
He said many parents believe that since the activity takes place at home, the children are safer.

237
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,760
But that's not true.

238
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,760
Parents have to be very acquainted with their children's browsers.

239
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,760
That's safe or Explorer. It's very important.

240
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,760
That can determine the kind of person you wind up being.

241
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,760
Parents take an interest in this kind of thing.

242
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,760
I mean, there's somebody who used Mozilla, and they wound up in a mental hospital.

243
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,760
You've got to be careful.

244
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:57,760
Okay.

245
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,760
So you have to be very acquainted with your children's browsers, get the history of where they have been that day,

246
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,760
and be upfront with them about why you're snooping around and watching over their shoulders.

247
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,760
Shana Freed has had a computer for about three years, her parents said,

248
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,760
but it didn't start to become a problem until her sophomore year.

249
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,760
Shana was spending all her spare time on it, chatting with other young people all over the country.

250
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,760
The Freeds monitored their daughter's activities,

251
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,760
but it's such an addictive thing that monitoring all the time is impossible, her mother said.

252
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,760
When Gary and Susan Freed realized their daughter had a problem,

253
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,760
they dropped Shana's America Online account.

254
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,760
There you go.

255
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:41,760
Also, in early spring of last year, the Freeds took their daughter to a psychologist.

256
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,760
Shana saw the psychologist for three or four months, and the Freeds saw improvement.

257
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,760
Her grades went back up again.

258
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,760
She even had tried out for a part in MAME, at the Lawncrest Community Center,

259
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,760
where she often helped out behind the scenes.

260
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,760
She's having a good year, Susan Freed said.

261
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,760
Why did she say that? Because that's present tense.

262
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,760
It's like she's being quoted from some other report.

263
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,760
Then again, how long was this year?

264
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,760
The progress report of Shana Freed here, which everybody was following.

265
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:10,760
She's having a good year.

266
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,760
Shana was also getting enthusiastic about doing things with her parents and younger sister, Jenna.

267
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,760
That's why her disappearance was such a surprise to the Freeds.

268
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:23,760
If they don't hear from her soon, the Freeds plan to hire a private investigator.

269
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:24,760
Gee whiz.

270
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,760
I mean, you know, if you're really worried about your kid, wouldn't you do that right away?

271
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,760
I would.

272
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,760
Anyway, if you happen to know where she is,

273
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,760
and I appeal to people out on the internet who might be listening,

274
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,760
you might be the only chance that these people have of getting their daughter back,

275
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,760
because obviously they're looking in malls around their local town,

276
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,760
not realizing that she could be anywhere in the world.

277
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,760
Contact Officer William Freisinger of Northeast Detectives.

278
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,760
Why does it sound like it's a commercial detective agency?

279
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,760
Northeast Detectives, 215-686-3153,

280
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:06,760
or the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-843-5678,

281
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,760
and ask for Charles Pickett.

282
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:10,760
Be sure to do that.

283
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,760
I just found the wording of that article interesting,

284
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,760
especially in the beginning, where you could actually substitute the word internet

285
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,760
for any name of a narcotic.

286
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,760
Yeah, it's an addiction.

287
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,760
It's evil, you know.

288
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,760
We don't want to mock what's going on.

289
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,760
Obviously, if someone's missing, it's a serious thing,

290
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,760
but just the ignorance people have towards the internet,

291
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,760
and communication with other people,

292
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,760
and normal things like that.

293
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,760
You sort of focus the problem in the wrong place.

294
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,760
Anyway, we'd like to see how that story turns out.

295
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaking of 800 numbers,

296
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,760
Bernie S. just sent us a text message on one of my phones.

297
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,760
And on that text message is a phone number.

298
00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,760
I'm going to call it right now.

299
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,760
I've never called it before in my life.

300
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,760
It has to do with Y2K problems.

301
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,760
Hang on, I have to find the message.

302
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,760
No, I don't want to do that.

303
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,760
You don't want to find the message?

304
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,760
No, I tried to read a text message and it started connecting me to voicemail,

305
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,760
and I sure don't want that.

306
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:20,760
Okay, I'm going to try that again.

307
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,760
Go down there, hit OK.

308
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:24,760
Unknown number, no.

309
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,760
Okay, here we go.

310
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,760
All right.

311
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,760
Let's get a dial tone, please.

312
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,760
Thank you very much.

313
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,760
This is actually an 888 number.

314
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:46,760
888-USA4Y2K.

315
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,760
Thank you for calling the Federal Year 2000 Information Center.

316
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,760
Information specialists are ready to assist you from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. Eastern Time.

317
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,760
Informational messages are available to touch-tone dialers 24 hours per day

318
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,760
and are updated frequently.

319
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,760
If you're calling from a touch-tone phone, please press 1 now.

320
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,760
Be told why your call is being transferred.

321
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:13,760
Wait, wait, wait.

322
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:14,760
Hold on a second.

323
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:15,760
A little patient here.

324
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,760
Please select from the following options appropriate to your needs.

325
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,760
You may make your choice any time during this message.

326
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,760
You may also press star at any time to repeat the menu.

327
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:24,760
Can we hurry it up a bit?

328
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,760
To find out what the government is doing to fix Year 2000 problems, press 1.

329
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,760
For information about Year 2000-related banking issues, press 2.

330
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,760
For information about Year 2000 personal computer issues, press 3.

331
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,760
For information about the Year 2000 problem and small business, press 4.

332
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,760
For information about Year 2000-related airline and airport issues, press 5.

333
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,760
For information about the Year 2000 problem and telecommunications, press 6.

334
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,760
For information about Year 2000-related electricity issues, press 7.

335
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:06,760
For information about the Year 2000-related food supply issues, press 8.

336
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,760
To speak with an information specialist, please press 0.

337
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,760
I'm interested in the food supply.

338
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:12,760
Please make your selection now.

339
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:13,760
Okay, I'm interested in the food supply.

340
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:14,760
How about you?

341
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,760
Let's find out about that.

342
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,760
Government agencies led by the U.S. Department of Agriculture

343
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,760
in coordination with the food industry report encouraging news.

344
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,760
Major domestic companies that provide most of the food Americans consume

345
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,760
are confident that there will be little or no interruption from the Y2K bug.

346
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,760
However, some foreign countries have not yet made significant progress,

347
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,760
and there is a possibility of short-term disruptions in some imports.

348
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,760
In winter months, it's just good sense to keep bottled water, some canned food,

349
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,760
and candles and batteries on hand because Mother Nature, not the Y2K bug,

350
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,760
can cause power outages or make a trip to the grocery store more difficult.

351
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,760
The Department of Agriculture has information about food availability on its website,

352
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:08,760
http://www.usda.gov

353
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:15,760
www.usda.gov

354
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,760
If you would like to hear this message again, press star.

355
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:20,760
Once was enough.

356
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,760
USA for Y2K.

357
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,760
No end of useful information there.

358
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,760
It's just the foreigners are going to have a problem, not us.

359
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:27,760
We're fine.

360
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,760
It's reassuring.

361
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,760
I debate that, but everybody's heard my piece time and time again.

362
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,760
Well, we'll devote more show time to Y2K.

363
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,760
Unfortunately, we don't have that much time today, and there's other issues,

364
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,760
but I just figured I'd give out that number because it's kind of entertaining.

365
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,760
It's a good thing to do at parties, I guess, when things get a little slow.

366
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:47,760
All right.

367
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,760
We also have news from the courtrooms.

368
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,760
Here's something interesting, and this was not very widely reported.

369
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,760
I don't really know why.

370
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,760
A Rhode Island man was sentenced on January 14th to a year and a day in prison

371
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:07,760
after admitting that he led a nationwide computer hacking group known as the VRI.

372
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:08,760
It's virus.

373
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,760
Plural.

374
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,760
Oh.

375
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,760
I think I'm pronouncing it right.

376
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:12,760
Yes.

377
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,760
At the sentencing hearing on the 14th in U.S. District Court in Boston,

378
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,760
Judge Patty Saris questioned whether the Internet service disruptions

379
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:28,760
and other damages caused by 21-year-old Sean Trofaro added up to as much as $67,500,

380
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,760
as prosecutors claimed.

381
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:30,760
Probably not.

382
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Now, keep in mind that Kevin Mitnick is accused of $80 million of damages.

383
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,760
We'll get to that later.

384
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,760
$67,500 a year and a day in prison, and can you even prove it?

385
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Saris also rejected a request that Trofaro continue to be banned from the Internet

386
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:47,760
except to use it at work.

387
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,760
So that's kind of significant right there that this person is having that figure questioned

388
00:23:52,760 --> 00:24:02,760
and also the ban on the Internet is being, I guess, rejected by the judge,

389
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,760
which is kind of good, but it's not good that they're sending this guy to prison.

390
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,760
The decision was a setback to the government's contentions that the group he led

391
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,760
threatened national security interests.

392
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,760
Trofaro could have received a maximum sentence of 18 months in prison

393
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,760
after pleading guilty to computer fraud charges,

394
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,760
but prosecutors recommended the lesser sentence.

395
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,760
They also agreed to allow him to serve his sentence in a federal boot camp

396
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760
with the result that he will likely be released in six months.

397
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,760
If you've been to a boot camp, you'll feel like you're there for 10 years.

398
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,760
Anyway, Trofaro's case has been seen as a test of the Justice Department's

399
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,760
ongoing campaign against hackers who prosecutors contend pose a serious threat to computer networks.

400
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,760
Critics say, however, that cases against young hackers like Trofaro have been overblown

401
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,760
and that the real danger to these networks comes from disgruntled corporate insiders.

402
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,760
In response, prosecutors note that members of the VRI have bragged of breaking into computers

403
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,760
belonging to NASA and other government agencies.

404
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,760
Now, you know, there's a big difference between bragging that something was done

405
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,760
and evidence that they did it.

406
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,760
And also, even if you have the evidence that they did it, what exactly does that mean?

407
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,760
Did they just access something? Did they destroy something?

408
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Big differences here. You can't just lump everything together.

409
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:18,760
Yeah, the shuttle went up a little while ago, so I don't know if there was a lot of damage there.

410
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,760
Yeah.

411
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,760
If at all.

412
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,760
What does that mean?

413
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,760
What does that mean? I believe that NASA is still functioning despite the fact...

414
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. NASA does a lot of other things, too, you know.

415
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:29,760
That's true.

416
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,760
Last year, two California high school students connected to the VRI admitted they snooped

417
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,760
through the Pentagon through Pentagon computers.

418
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,760
Actually, I didn't know they were connected to that group, but I guess in the eyes of law,

419
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,760
they're all connected.

420
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Yeah, they snooped through Pentagon computers. They were sentenced to probation.

421
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:45,760
Oh, what the heck, you know.

422
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,760
Trofaro was not charged in connection with those events.

423
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,760
In October, he pled guilty to criminal charges that he tapped into five academic

424
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,760
and commercial computing systems without permission in 1996 and 1997,

425
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,760
disrupting online services at Harvard and Amherst colleges, among others.

426
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,760
Again, no details. How was it disrupted? Maybe just his presence disrupted things.

427
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,760
Was anything deleted? Anything changed? Anything damaged?

428
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,760
Trofaro's role in the hacking group wasn't clear until the 14th, when on the witness stand,

429
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760
the thin and sharp-featured young man was asked by Prosecutor Gene Chemthorne

430
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,760
to describe his connection to the VRI.

431
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,760
I used to run it, he replied.

432
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,760
I'm sure the members of the VRI might have something to say about that,

433
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,760
but it might be true, too. Who knows?

434
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,760
I don't know why you'd say that on the stand, though.

435
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,760
But anyway, he insisted the group's main motive was only to test computer security,

436
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:37,760
not abuse systems.

437
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,760
Cyrus suggested he might find a better way of applying his skills after his release,

438
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,760
such as teaching children how to use computers.

439
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,760
The $8 an hour retailing job he recently started, she said, was a waste of his talents.

440
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,760
That's the judge saying this.

441
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,760
The same judge that sent him to prison is saying that he should be working with computers.

442
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,760
I mean, what's the point of sending him to prison? I don't get this.

443
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,760
I don't understand this at all.

444
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,760
Cyrus said she was appalled at how little he earns,

445
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,760
adding that other people were charging $50 an hour to fix the problems you created.

446
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Well, gee whiz, I'm sure he would have fixed it for free, you know?

447
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,760
I mean, that makes more sense, if there were any problems at all.

448
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,760
In addition to serving his sentence, Trofaro might have to pay for the damages he caused.

449
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,760
The exact figure remains in dispute pending further hearings.

450
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,760
The judge questioned government estimates, which included $29,500 in damages

451
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,760
to a Nebraska internet service provider and $27,000 in damages

452
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,760
stemming from his computer break-in at Harvard.

453
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,760
Prosecutors and the institutions involved have declined to discuss

454
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,760
how they arrived at those amounts.

455
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,760
Well, if they're so low, I'd imagine that it's just that they're having to hire somebody

456
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,760
to go through and just figure out what the heck he did.

457
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,760
Whereas in the Mitnick case, that's an entirely different story.

458
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,760
I wish I got $29,500 every time I had to go through something and figure out what someone did.

459
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,760
Well, I wish I did, too.

460
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,760
I was making $8 an hour at the same as this retail guy was.

461
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,760
If my boss, or my former boss, is listening, listen to that judge, you know?

462
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,760
Trofaro admits that he and other members of the VRI intruded into computers,

463
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760
shut down chat rooms, and used abusive language online.

464
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,760
It's probably that latter one that got them in trouble.

465
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:13,760
Oh, well.

466
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,760
But in an interview after yesterday's sentencing hearing, Trofaro, surrounded by his family,

467
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,760
repeated his claim that such activities weren't malicious.

468
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,760
Listen to this. This is interesting.

469
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,760
I feel badly that they couldn't patch up their systems easily, he said,

470
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,760
of those whose computer services he disrupted.

471
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,760
They couldn't patch it up. I mean, they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

472
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,760
Basically.

473
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,760
And it's true. Most times they don't.

474
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,760
But my intention wasn't to steal money out of their pockets. It was to learn.

475
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Upon his release, Trofaro plans to return to college.

476
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,760
He said he looked forward to trading email with other VRI members.

477
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,760
He also said he might start a computer security consulting firm after his release.

478
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,760
I do want to start a business of some type, he said.

479
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,760
It would make sense to do what I know.

480
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,760
It's a tragedy when people like that are sent away.

481
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,760
And I hope when he gets out, he remembers this whole thing

482
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,760
and tries to help people who might be facing similar situations in the future.

483
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,760
And also help to change things so this doesn't keep happening to people.

484
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,760
And yeah, it's still happening. It's still happening all over the place.

485
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,760
I really got scared this week.

486
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,760
I don't know if you saw me over the weekend, but I was really trembling.

487
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,760
New York Times. Front page, New York Times, on Friday.

488
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,760
Anybody see this? I imagine a lot of people saw this.

489
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,760
Clinton describes terrorism threat for 21st century.

490
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,760
Oh, I heard about this.

491
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,760
And in a speech he gave that same day, I just want to quote some of this.

492
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,760
This is rather important.

493
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,760
How about that? We won.

494
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,760
We don't need traditional military means anymore.

495
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,760
Okay, pack it all in, everybody. It's all over.

496
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,760
We won. They cannot defeat us with traditional military means.

497
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760
It's on to cyberspace now. Yes.

498
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,760
Now they are working on two new forms of assault, which you've heard about today.

499
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,760
Cyber attacks on our critical computer systems

500
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,760
and attacks with weapons of mass destruction.

501
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,760
Chemical, biological, potentially even nuclear weapons.

502
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,760
We must be ready.

503
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,760
Ready if our adversaries try to use computers to disable power grids,

504
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,760
banking communications and transportation networks,

505
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,760
police, fire and health services, or military assets.

506
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,760
We're going to skip over the nuclear and chemical weapon thing.

507
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,760
Oh, but those are fun.

508
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,760
It's amazing that computer hackers, people we know,

509
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,760
are being talked about in the same breath by the president,

510
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,760
by the president of the United States of America,

511
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,760
as multinational terrorists, you know,

512
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,760
the people we read about in papers, the schemers,

513
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,760
the people that are doing all the horrible things in the world.

514
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,760
Well, it's something of an ego boost to be, you know, put on the same level as them.

515
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,760
I'm sure for a 14-year-old it's heaven, you know, being thought of in this way.

516
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,760
But when you think about it, when you think about what these people are doing

517
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,760
and the resources they have at their fingertips, it's damn scary.

518
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:07,760
It is. It is.

519
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:08,760
It's really scary.

520
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,760
When are these people going to wake up? Not the people, not the kids.

521
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,760
When are these people making these crazy statements going to wake up

522
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,760
and realize that it's not necessarily terrorism

523
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,760
every time you don't understand something?

524
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,760
Sadly, I doubt they will.

525
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,760
Well, then, I really don't know what we're heading for.

526
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,760
But listen to this one. This is a good paragraph right here.

527
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,760
More and more, these critical systems are driven by and linked together with computers,

528
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,760
making them more vulnerable to disruption.

529
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,760
Last spring, we saw the enormous impact of a single failed electronic link

530
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,760
when a satellite malfunction disabled pagers, ATMs, credit card systems,

531
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,760
and television networks all around the world.

532
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Now, wait a second. Are they insinuating that hackers did that?

533
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:47,760
No. No.

534
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,760
Well, that's their clever way of making it appear like hackers could do that.

535
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,760
Do you remember when there was the Martin Luther King crash back, I think, in 1990?

536
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,760
It was set from the very beginning.

537
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,760
It was an AT&T problem, I think.

538
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,760
From the very beginning, everybody said hackers were not responsible for this.

539
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,760
But I remember reading an editorial in Computer Week or Information Week or Security Week

540
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,760
or one of those week papers that, basically, hackers were not responsible for this,

541
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,760
but they could have been.

542
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,760
And that's the reason why we have to strengthen the laws.

543
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,760
It's the most convoluted logic I think I've ever seen, but nobody questioned it.

544
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,760
And nobody's questioning this. Well, I'm questioning it.

545
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,760
Well, why strengthen the laws when you can actually strengthen the security?

546
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,760
Well, yeah. Then you're expecting corporate America to do something.

547
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,760
Oh, I'm sorry. I know.

548
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,760
All right. And also, he's talking about this malfunction.

549
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,760
We talked about this on the radio when it happened.

550
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,760
Pagers were what were affected.

551
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,760
I didn't hear of any ATMs being affected by this.

552
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,760
I don't know of any television networks that got affected.

553
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,760
Except the television networks were reporting about the pagers.

554
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,760
That was the extent of it as far as I know.

555
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,760
Anyway, so, yeah, he made it into this big major deal.

556
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,760
And that's what happens. Satellites malfunction.

557
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,760
But what does that have to do with computer hackers?

558
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,760
We already are seeing the first wave of deliberate cyber attacks.

559
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,760
Hackers break into government and business computers.

560
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,760
This is the president speaking. President Clinton speaking.

561
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,760
Hackers break into government and business computers, stealing and destroying information,

562
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,760
raiding bank accounts, running up credit card charges,

563
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,760
extorting money by threats to unleash computer viruses.

564
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,760
What has this guy been reading or smoking?

565
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,760
He's definitely not in tune with reality here.

566
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,760
He's watching too many movies.

567
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,760
Basically.

568
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,760
He's not reading the facts. He's not reading 2600.

569
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:31,760
I'll tell you that right now.

570
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,760
Well, I know that certain agencies certainly are.

571
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,760
But his script writers, his speech writers, rather.

572
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,760
Well, one or the other. You can never tell nowadays.

573
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,760
He's just a runaway process here.

574
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,760
A zombie process.

575
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Yeah, it's scary.

576
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,760
You know, when you see the president of the United States

577
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,760
almost talking by name to people that you know.

578
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:54,760
That is fairly frightening.

579
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,760
It frightens me. It really does.

580
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:58,760
I don't know what to do about this.

581
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,760
First of all, one thing I do want to, and maybe somebody out there can help,

582
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,760
and if you can help, please do.

583
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:08,760
This is a speech that was given in front of the, what was it, the National,

584
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,760
hang on, I have it right here.

585
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,760
The Science Foundation?

586
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,760
No, the National Academy of Sciences.

587
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,760
The speech was given on January 22nd.

588
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,760
I cannot find the video of this speech anyplace.

589
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,760
I can't find it on C-SPAN.

590
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,760
I can't find it on the White House website.

591
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,760
It's got to exist someplace.

592
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:25,760
I need to see this.

593
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,760
There is a video.

594
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,760
Every time the president gives a speech, somebody's recording it.

595
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,760
The network should have it someplace.

596
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:30,760
Have you checked the NAS?

597
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:31,760
What's the NAS?

598
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,760
The National Academy of Sciences.

599
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,760
Oh, yes, I did.

600
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,760
They don't have anything video-ish.

601
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,760
That's as far as I can tell, anyway, unless they hid it pretty good.

602
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,760
Well, you know, there are things called telephones,

603
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,760
and you can talk to somebody in case they have it.

604
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,760
Yeah, but I was doing this at 3 in the morning, okay?

605
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:44,760
Okay, well, then maybe.

606
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,760
That's when I do my work.

607
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,760
So, all right, someone out there must know how to do this,

608
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,760
how to get ahold of a video copy of this, or if it was seen anyplace.

609
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,760
Please let us know.

610
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,760
You can mail us, othat2600.com is our email address.

611
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,760
And it gets scarier.

612
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:00,760
It gets scarier, too.

613
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:01,760
It really does.

614
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,760
This is from the front page of the New York Times.

615
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:05,760
That was a speech.

616
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,760
That wasn't even included in the New York Times, but this was.

617
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,760
And this wasn't reported.

618
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,760
This is what bothers me.

619
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,760
It was reported once, and I never saw mention of it again.

620
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,760
Elaborating on some of the initiatives he intends to unveil on Friday,

621
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,760
Mr. Clinton said he is weighing a proposal from the Defense Department

622
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:26,760
to establish a commander-in-chief for the defense of the continental United States,

623
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,760
a step that civil liberties groups strongly resist.

624
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,760
Such a step would go far beyond the civil defense measures

625
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,760
and bomb shelters that marked the Cold War,

626
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,760
setting up instead a military leadership to help fight chaos and disarray if an attack occurred.

627
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,760
The Pentagon has commanders overseeing regions around the globe,

628
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,760
but none for the continental United States.

629
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,760
Well, there's a number of them for CONUS.

630
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,760
If they're going to try and conglomerate the power into one, that could get very interesting.

631
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,760
Critics fear that such moves could open the door to rising military influence

632
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,760
and a loss of individual rights.

633
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,760
But Mr. Clinton insisted that such erosions would never occur, even while acknowledging the danger.

634
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,760
We've got to preserve civil liberties, resolve all doubt in favor of that,

635
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,760
and if there's a question, bring it to me, Mr. Clinton said,

636
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,760
while acknowledging there were specific concerns in areas like computer security.

637
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,760
He did not offer details on how he would ensure protection.

638
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,760
That kind of thing just gives me nightmares.

639
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,760
Well, the fact that it hasn't been recurring is more interesting, as in...

640
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,760
I wonder where the author of that article is right now.

641
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,760
Oh, boy.

642
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,760
The president is supposed to be the commander-in-chief.

643
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,760
For him to consolidate all of CONUS under one man

644
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,760
certainly puts somebody in a very close position to his own.

645
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,760
Meanwhile, he does still have ultimate control.

646
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,760
We'll see what happens now.

647
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,760
But a military leadership in this country.

648
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,760
Well, it's always existed.

649
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,760
Yeah, but, you know, someone... it bothers me.

650
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,760
It sounds like martial law, if you ask me.

651
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,760
Yeah, in fact, that's what things have been gearing towards.

652
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,760
If you look at it in relation to other current events,

653
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,760
such as, hmm, Y2K, the possibilities of serious civil unrest,

654
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,760
it gets even more interesting.

655
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,760
But we won't go into that.

656
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,760
Yeah, that's another show.

657
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,760
When I was a kid, I played with baseball cards.

658
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,760
I don't know what's going on with these unfounded kids these days

659
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,760
playing with computers and causing national unrest.

660
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,760
Oh, well.

661
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,760
Now to the Kevin Mitnick case.

662
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,760
And this is the worst of it all.

663
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,760
Because as you may know, if you've been following the story

664
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:37,760
and other forms of information dissemination, such as the website, www...

665
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,760
Actually, I'm going to give it a different address this time

666
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,760
because it's actually easy to remember.

667
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,760
www.freekevin.com.

668
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,760
It goes to the same place as kevinmitnick.com,

669
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,760
so it might be easier for you to do that.

670
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,760
And that way, if you see one of the stickers, just remember,

671
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,760
just put a www on the left and a comma at the end, and bingo.

672
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,760
You don't even need to do that, as we've discussed on a previous show.

673
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:55,760
That's true, too.

674
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:03,760
Okay, what happened was, basically, Kevin's lawyer was not prepared

675
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,760
to defend him by April 20th,

676
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,760
which is the date that the trial originally scheduled for January 19th, I think,

677
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,760
January 19th or 20th, was postponed to.

678
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,760
He wasn't prepared.

679
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:16,760
There was just no way.

680
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,760
In fact, the trial was supposed to be underway now.

681
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,760
He's a court-appointed lawyer.

682
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,760
He has other cases.

683
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,760
He's a busy person.

684
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,760
He's not getting paid very much.

685
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,760
And basically, Kevin is left in the dark lots of times.

686
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:30,760
This is Don Randolph?

687
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:31,760
Donald Randolph, yes.

688
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,760
Now, that is a fact of the system.

689
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,760
When you get a court-appointed lawyer, that's how you get treated.

690
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,760
So for that reason, his lawyer asked for additional time.

691
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,760
Now, this really sucks because Kevin's in prison,

692
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,760
and I think everyone's forgetting about that.

693
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,760
He's in prison.

694
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,760
If he gets an extension, he's still in prison.

695
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,760
He doesn't have any bail hearings.

696
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,760
He's not allowed to weave to prepare his case.

697
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:58,760
He's stuck there.

698
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,760
He's been there almost four years now.

699
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,760
And just to clear up a few things, I see it constantly in misstated places.

700
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:06,760
He has been charged.

701
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,760
People say he's been in it four years without being charged with a crime.

702
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,760
No, he has been charged with a crime.

703
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,760
He has not been given a bail hearing, which is something that Timothy McVeigh got,

704
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,760
something the World Trade Center bombers got.

705
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:18,760
He's not been given a bail hearing.

706
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,760
He has not had a trial.

707
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:25,760
And the crimes he is charged with are so ridiculously minor as to be funny.

708
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,760
He's being accused of causing $80 million in damage.

709
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,760
But as we pointed out in this other story, they don't explain how they arrive at these figures.

710
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,760
They just make up these figures out of nowhere, copying software.

711
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,760
This is not deleting software.

712
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,760
You know, if you go in and you delete everything a company did,

713
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,760
I could see maybe causing $80 million worth of damage.

714
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,760
If you go in there and you copy something and then you sell it to the Latvians or something,

715
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,760
okay, maybe that's causing damage too.

716
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:02,760
But if you go in there and you look around and maybe you copy a file but you don't do anything with it,

717
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,760
is the damage the same?

718
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:05,760
Is it really the same?

719
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,760
Is it that easy to cause $80 million worth of damage?

720
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,760
See, I think it's easy for people to think that when they don't understand the technology.

721
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,760
And that's what Kevin is faced with right now is a lot of people who don't understand, including the judge.

722
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,760
The judge does not get this.

723
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:28,760
Otherwise, how could she live with herself, keeping somebody in prison four years for copying files,

724
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,760
not even distributing them, selling them, destroying them, just copying them?

725
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,760
I mean, I'm sure there are people out there that say,

726
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,760
yeah, someone should rot in jail for the rest of their life for doing that.

727
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,760
I'd just like to hear some logic behind that.

728
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,760
Anyway, of course the motion was denied.

729
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,760
In fact, it was denied without comment.

730
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:58,760
And reports have it that the judge didn't even read Kevin's lawyer's motion

731
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,760
but sided completely with the prosecution's objections.

732
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,760
I'd like to read you some selected pieces of this.

733
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,760
I'll just show you how outrageous this whole thing has gotten.

734
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,760
Ignoring this court's admonition that no further continuances would be granted

735
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,760
and ignoring this court's observation that it is time for this case to proceed to trial,

736
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,760
defendant Mitnick yet again seeks to have the trial date in this matter postponed.

737
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,760
Recognizing that his failure to review the evidence,

738
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,760
his apparent failure to retain an expert in a timely fashion,

739
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,760
his failure to conduct any investigation in over three years,

740
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,760
and his counsel's trial conflicts arising from more recent engagements

741
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,760
are not appropriate grounds for yet another continuance,

742
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,760
defendant instead seeks to manufacture alleged government misdeeds

743
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,760
in the hope that the court will grant yet another continuance of the trial date.

744
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,760
Now, let's look at this.

745
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,760
His failure to review the evidence.

746
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,760
He wasn't given the evidence until a couple of weeks ago.

747
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,760
He was not even allowed to look at it.

748
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,760
We're talking about somebody who was in prison.

749
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,760
Evidence is only viewable on computer.

750
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,760
He is not allowed to have a computer, therefore he cannot look at the evidence.

751
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,760
How simple does it have to be for these people to understand this?

752
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,760
He has finally been able to get a hold of a computer for limited hours,

753
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,760
a couple hours a day maybe, if he's lucky.

754
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,760
And when you're talking about tens of gigs of data to go through,

755
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,760
I don't know if you've ever had to do that.

756
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,760
It can be a real pain.

757
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,760
There just isn't enough time to mount an adequate defense.

758
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,760
It's like they say here's the evidence against you,

759
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,760
and they put a computer on the table,

760
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,760
and they say it's in here somewhere.

761
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:42,760
It's in here somewhere.

762
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,760
There's 50 gigabits of information in there,

763
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,760
but the one sentence that we have against you is in there.

764
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:47,760
We know where it is.

765
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:48,760
You don't.

766
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:49,760
Good luck.

767
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,760
You have two weeks.

768
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,760
That's basically the mindset we're dealing with here.

769
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:55,760
And it's okay with everybody,

770
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,760
because Kevin is seen as some terrorist,

771
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,760
just like President Clinton seems to think he is.

772
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,760
Failure to conduct any investigation in over three years.

773
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,760
I've talked to Kevin so many times over the past almost four years,

774
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,760
and he is completely frustrated by his inability to conduct an investigation,

775
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,760
because he is kept in prison.

776
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,760
His lawyer has no time to deal with his case.

777
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:22,760
That is a fact.

778
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,760
That is a fact.

779
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,760
They even say it here, it's counsel's trial conflicts.

780
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,760
How is that Kevin's fault?

781
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,760
It's not Kevin's fault.

782
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,760
It's really, really sad.

783
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,760
What choices does he have at this point?

784
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,760
What can he do?

785
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:42,760
Does he get another lawyer?

786
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:43,760
Does he start from scratch?

787
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,760
That's not going to work.

788
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,760
The system, the system is what is unfair here,

789
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,760
and that's what Kevin is caught in the middle of.

790
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,760
He's getting injustice from both ends.

791
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,760
He's getting injustice from defense.

792
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,760
He's getting injustice from prosecution.

793
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,760
And everyone's forgetting he's an individual.

794
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,760
He's stuck in prison.

795
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,760
He's been there for four years.

796
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,760
I don't care what he did.

797
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:12,760
I don't care if he erased all of Motorola's profits for a certain year.

798
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:18,760
That is an incredible amount of time to spend in prison for something on the Internet like this.

799
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,760
All right, maybe if he erased their profits, that might be a little bit more serious.

800
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,760
But still, he did nothing like that.

801
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,760
He probably didn't cost them a penny.

802
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,760
They certainly didn't report anything to their stockholders.

803
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,760
So there's serious problems with this case.

804
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,760
But he's not being allowed to defend himself.

805
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,760
And how anybody can say that he is, how anybody can say that he's stalling,

806
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,760
why would he want to stall?

807
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,760
Why would he want to be in prison any longer than he has to be?

808
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,760
I think the only way to even pretend that justice is starting to be served

809
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,760
is to have the trial and sentence him to time served or find him innocent completely

810
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,760
and let him the hell out of there.

811
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,760
Because this can't go on any longer.

812
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,760
Okay, I'm going to read a couple of things from the mailing list,

813
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,760
and we'll try to take some phone calls.

814
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,760
I'm sorry we didn't have more time to do this, but we haven't been on in a few weeks.

815
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,760
We won't be on again for a little while, and there's so much to cover.

816
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,760
This comes from Kerry on the Kevin Mitnick mailing list.

817
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,760
The government reply to the last defense motion for delay of the trial

818
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,760
blames Kevin himself for failing to take necessary action toward trial preparation,

819
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,760
specifically for not doing investigation during the past three years,

820
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,760
for failing to review the evidence.

821
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,760
Whereas Kevin himself says if the government will provide him with the access,

822
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,760
that is, his freedom to do anything at all in his defense,

823
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,760
he would be more than happy to start the investigation, witness interviews,

824
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,760
resolving trials, scheduling conflicts in his attorney's calendar, etc.

825
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,760
Yesterday and today, Monday and Tuesday, Kevin was unable to do any evidence review

826
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,760
because a representative from his attorney's office must be there with him

827
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,760
when he reviews evidence, and no one is available.

828
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,760
That's Kevin's fault, huh?

829
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,760
The situation just seems to be getting worse.

830
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,760
As of now, Kevin does not have the ability to do any of the things

831
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,760
the government has complained about in their opposition document.

832
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,760
He cannot interview any witnesses.

833
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,760
He cannot possibly review the evidence in time for trial,

834
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,760
as he doesn't have any control over when he is allowed to look at the evidence.

835
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,760
He's only been able to review a very, very sparse amount of the evidence thus far,

836
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,760
something like four days with a laptop,

837
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,760
something like three or four hours a day, just been reviewing it.

838
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,760
And he can't be his court-appointed attorney's only client.

839
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,760
Part of the aforementioned January 11th motion document covers the problem,

840
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,760
the problems that Kevin's attorney is experiencing handling another case,

841
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,760
which is going to trial very soon.

842
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:53,760
And as we mentioned, Judge Feltzer denied the defense motion,

843
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,760
as can be seen in past court transcripts,

844
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,760
and you can see all these on the site, www.freekevin.com.

845
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,760
He and the government are both impatient to take this case to trial.

846
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,760
I'm sure Kevin would like to get on with things,

847
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,760
as far as being able to review the evidence, prepare for trial,

848
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,760
have the defense do whatever investigation it needs to do, etc.

849
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,760
And only then, once it can be a fair trial, get on with the trial too.

850
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,760
But given his present circumstances at the MDC,

851
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:25,760
he can't do much of what the government asserts in its opposition that he should be doing.

852
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,760
As we have said before, he only has a small amount of time every week to review evidence,

853
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,760
contingent on his attorney's office providing a representative to be present when he does this.

854
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,760
He obviously doesn't have a crew of investigators to send out interviewing witnesses,

855
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,760
gathering more information about the circumstances of his arrest

856
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,760
and the searches and civilian participation involved therein.

857
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,760
And by the way, the government in this opposition is using some clever rewording,

858
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,760
accusing the defense of blaming their untimely need to investigate these events on the government,

859
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,760
when the defense motion never said such a thing.

860
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,760
Rather, it referred to the scope of the investigation broadening,

861
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,760
as more evidence was provided by the government.

862
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,760
The government response makes it sound as though Kevin should have taken care of all investigation and review by now,

863
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:15,760
but how was he supposed to have accomplished any of these tasks while imprisoned and denied a bail hearing?

864
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,760
Despite the fact that the defendant has received every accommodation,

865
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:25,760
he once again seeks to continue the trial based upon misrepresentations of fact.

866
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:34,760
Four years of pretrial detention without a bail hearing does not exactly qualify as every accommodation.

867
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,760
Now does it? Of course not.

868
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,760
For all the complaints the government gives in this document about allowances they've made for the defense,

869
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:48,760
it seems that they've completely forgotten that they're already handling this case in an unusual manner,

870
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,760
keeping their pretrial detainee incarcerated four years before trial.

871
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,760
And as we said before, why would Kevin want to hold up this process?

872
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,760
Not the process of going to trial, but the process of trial preparation.

873
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,760
There is the speedy trial argument that people often hand you,

874
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:06,760
that because Kevin gave up his right to a speedy trial as imprisonment for four years before a trial is somehow justified,

875
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,760
this is flawed logic at best.

876
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:15,760
A speedy trial in such a complex case could well have resulted in an unfair conviction had Kevin gone that route,

877
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,760
and that is true now as well.

878
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,760
And by complex case, we basically mean an area of law which is only now being defined.

879
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,760
The fact remains this is a complicated case, an unusual case.

880
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,760
It's going to take some time and effort to research it on both sides.

881
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,760
The government which started this case is now impatient to move on with it.

882
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,760
The government says in its response that it is doing Kevin a favor,

883
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,760
allowing him to have a laptop to review evidence,

884
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,760
as it is not required to allow this privilege to a pretrial inmate.

885
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,760
In reality, providing printouts of the evidence involved would be impossible.

886
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,760
There is just too much data.

887
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,760
And considering that Kevin is not allowed to be out on bail,

888
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,760
for which at least a hearing would be allowed for practically any other accused person,

889
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,760
shouldn't he at the very least be allowed to see the evidence against him?

890
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,760
Shouldn't that be a right rather than a privilege?

891
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,760
At the same time, the government refers to particular parts of the evidence it has provided to the defense

892
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,760
as obviously unnecessary to the individual.

893
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,760
as obviously unnecessary to the case,

894
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,760
thereby claiming it has provided much more than it was responsible for.

895
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,760
But where is the justice in a defense prepared from evidence which is predetermined by the opposition?

896
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,760
Does the judge actually believe the following statement?

897
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,760
The simple truth is that the defendant has failed to exercise any diligence

898
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,760
in reviewing or analyzing the electronic discovery,

899
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:37,760
and therefore he is searching for any mechanism to avoid proceeding to trial on schedule.

900
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,760
Kevin has exercised every diligence he possibly can to get this review of evidence going,

901
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,760
and a lot of other people have tried to help this process along too.

902
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:51,760
But the obstacles encountered while doing so, particularly the bureaucratic ones, have been considerable.

903
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:57,760
Again, those words are coming from Kerry on the Kevin Mitnick website and the Kevin Mitnick mailing list,

904
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,760
which you can join if you're on the internet.

905
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,760
Simply mail majordomo, M-A-J-O-R-D-O-M-O, at 2600.com,

906
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,760
and in the first line of your message, simply say subscribe Mitnick,

907
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,760
and it should be easy after that point.

908
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,760
And if you just need to look at the webpage, keep updated in that way,

909
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,760
www.freekevin.com or www.kevinmitnick.com, they go to the same place.

910
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,760
I'll tell you, week after week, it just keeps getting more and more frustrating.

911
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:33,760
Hopefully, more of us can get together, figure out ways to get the word out,

912
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,760
send us an email if you have any ideas, O-T-H at 2600.com.

913
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,760
I really apologize for all the time we've taken,

914
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,760
but I don't think there was a single story we read that was not important.

915
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,760
Let's see if we can race through some phone calls.

916
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:47,760
We're going to have to make it pretty fast, though.

917
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

918
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,760
Speak up, please.

919
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,760
Okay, thing is, I know people are falling asleep, and I'm sorry about that,

920
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,760
but there's really nothing I can do.

921
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,760
212-209-2900 also is the phone number,

922
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,760
but all the lines have been lit for a while, so I don't think you'll even get through.

923
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:06,760
Let's try this one.

924
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:07,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

925
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:08,760
Hi, Manuel.

926
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:09,760
How are you doing?

927
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,760
Always nice to hear a friendly voice.

928
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

929
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,760
Speak up, please.

930
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,760
That's an interesting sound, but I don't know what else.

931
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

932
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,760
Does he somehow have a power of blocking all lines except his?

933
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:25,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

934
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,760
Hi, I just want to mention the following things.

935
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:29,760
Okay, well, I'm sure you'll have that opportunity.

936
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:30,760
Good evening, you're on the air.

937
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:31,760
Hi, Manuel.

938
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:32,760
Yes.

939
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:33,760
This is Jim from Idaho.

940
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:34,760
Jim from Idaho?

941
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:35,760
Whoa, I don't think we've ever gotten a call from there before.

942
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:36,760
You're listening to us right now.

943
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,760
No, I can't, because you don't use an open source broadcast system.

944
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:40,760
We don't use an open source.

945
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:41,760
Oh, boy, not this again.

946
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,760
Uh-huh, hey.

947
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,760
Listen, you could connect, right?

948
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:47,760
What?

949
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,760
I can't decode the source, because there's no…

950
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:50,760
That's not what I called to talk about.

951
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:51,760
Okay, all right, all right.

952
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,760
I want to talk about one of the reasons why there's a lot of companies

953
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:01,760
turning in people like Kevin Mitnick to the authorities

954
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,760
is because they don't have any other alternative.

955
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,760
Basically, we have a fascist government,

956
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,760
which thinks that all people who just want to explore are terrorists,

957
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,760
but they're the only alternative for people to turn to.

958
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,760
Right now, I'm dealing with a bunch of script kiddies

959
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:19,760
who are harassing people, spouting racist propaganda out of their systems,

960
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,760
but I can't turn them into the government, because they'll just be put in jail.

961
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:23,760
I don't want to do that.

962
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,760
I just want to scare them to get them to stop what they're doing.

963
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,760
But who do I turn to?

964
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,760
Well, in cases like this, I strongly believe it should be kept within the community,

965
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,760
within the Internet community,

966
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,760
and I think there are plenty of smart people here

967
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,760
that either have gone through it themselves or just know how things work,

968
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,760
that are certainly capable of finding somebody very quickly

969
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,760
and talking some sense into them.

970
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,760
You have to remember, these are kids doing what kids have always done,

971
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,760
except the tools have changed.

972
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,760
Now, instead of smashing mailboxes,

973
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,760
they're sending out abusive messages on AOL or something.

974
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,760
Yeah, there needs to be a way to deal with them,

975
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,760
like some sort of hacker-organized community to deal with a problem like this.

976
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,760
Well, why do you think that changed?

977
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,760
Excuse me?

978
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,760
You say there used to be a way of dealing with them.

979
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,760
No, there isn't a way to deal with it.

980
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:10,760
There never has been,

981
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,760
and until either the government wisens up and creates speeding tickets

982
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,760
instead of sledgehammers,

983
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,760
or hackers themselves get together to provide a way to track people down

984
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,760
and scare them without having to put them in jail for years,

985
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,760
there's still going to be this problem.

986
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:25,760
Yeah, you know, I'm in favor.

987
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,760
If it's a virtual crime, how about a virtual penalty?

988
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,760
You go to virtual jail or something.

989
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:31,760
I don't know, there must be some...

990
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,760
They lock your web browser to a certain site,

991
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:34,760
so you have to look at it all day.

992
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,760
Consider it a challenge for all you programmers out there.

993
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:37,760
Okay, well, I better let the next caller in.

994
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:38,760
Thanks a lot.

995
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:39,760
All right, thanks for calling.

996
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:40,760
You know, for someone who's not listening,

997
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:41,760
you were surprisingly on target as far as what we're talking about.

998
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:42,760
Yeah, remarkably so.

999
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:43,760
All right, good evening.

1000
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:44,760
You're on the air.

1001
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,760
Hi, you were talking about a video earlier on the president's speech.

1002
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:49,760
Yes, you have a source for us.

1003
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,760
Yeah, I would suggest the University of Texas A&M

1004
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,760
is where the National Academy of Sciences is.

1005
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,760
That's where they're located.

1006
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,760
That's where one of their labs is located.

1007
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:02,760
Uh-huh.

1008
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,760
So you have a good shot that they have that video

1009
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,760
or that they took the video.

1010
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,760
Okay.

1011
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,760
But can I get your fax number?

1012
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,760
Because I have some other ideas if you can't get that one.

1013
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,760
Yeah, the 2600 fax number is 516-474-2677.

1014
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:17,760
Okay.

1015
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:18,760
All right, thanks.

1016
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:19,760
Thanks for calling.

1017
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,760
And let's go down here.

1018
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:23,760
Good evening.

1019
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:24,760
You're on the air.

1020
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,760
Hey, you think there will be a year 10,000 problem?

1021
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,760
You know, that's of concern to many people,

1022
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,760
not just because it's another turn of the millennium,

1023
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,760
but five digits over four, that's a serious issue.

1024
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,760
And, yeah, there are moves afoot to deal with that.

1025
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:40,760
I actually have a good joke about that, but not enough time.

1026
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,760
Yeah, I'll have to just, I'll do our funny show in a few weeks.

1027
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:45,760
Good evening.

1028
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:46,760
You're on the air.

1029
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,760
I want to mention the following things.

1030
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:49,760
Okay.

1031
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,760
Maybe something in your voice that keeps doing that.

1032
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:53,760
Good evening.

1033
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:54,760
You're on the air.

1034
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:55,760
Hey, how are you doing?

1035
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:56,760
Okay, how are you?

1036
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,760
I want to know some information on the 1010-220 or the 1010-501.

1037
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,760
Those are the access codes that supposedly allow you to make free phone calls, right?

1038
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:05,760
Yes.

1039
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:06,760
Well, that's all I know about them,

1040
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,760
that supposedly you can make free phone calls by allowing those access.

1041
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,760
Well, it doesn't work in New Jersey.

1042
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,760
Well, I bet it doesn't work anywhere because we broadcast this a few weeks ago

1043
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,760
and the company would be out of business by now if it still worked,

1044
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,760
or either that or incredibly stupid or maybe they just abandoned it and walked away from it.

1045
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,760
I heard like five numbers, like 1010-220, 1010-501.

1046
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,760
Well, you know, this is something.

1047
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,760
Now, in relation to our first caller,

1048
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,760
for all those kids out there that are spending time doing malicious things,

1049
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,760
now you have several tens of thousands of numbers to scan in the hopes of making a free phone call.

1050
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:35,760
You see?

1051
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,760
All that energy is put to constructive use.

1052
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:38,760
That's true.

1053
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,760
And, of course, you share the information when you get it because that's just the nature of things.

1054
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,760
I'll tell you, these numbers are driving me insane.

1055
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,760
You know, in Philadelphia now, you have to dial the area code,

1056
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,760
even if you're in the same area code.

1057
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:52,760
You're in 215.

1058
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:53,760
You have to dial 215.

1059
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,760
Isn't that going to start here with the addition of the new area code?

1060
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,760
There are supposedly riots planned if that starts in Manhattan.

1061
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:00,760
Yeah.

1062
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:01,760
There are riots planned.

1063
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:02,760
Imagine you have to...

1064
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,760
You're in 212, right?

1065
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,760
And you have to dial 212-209-2900.

1066
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,760
And the thing is, in Philadelphia, they say you don't have to dial the 1.

1067
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:11,760
You don't have to dial the 1 if you're calling 215.

1068
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:12,760
Oh, wow.

1069
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,760
But you do have to dial the 1 if you're calling outside 215.

1070
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:15,760
It's so confusing.

1071
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,760
I've seen people in tears in the streets there.

1072
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:18,760
It's horrible.

1073
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,760
Well, I have to dial MPAs with my Sprint phone all the time anyway.

1074
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:22,760
Okay, one more call.

1075
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:23,760
One more call.

1076
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:24,760
Let's go over here.

1077
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Good evening.

1078
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:26,760
You're on the air.

1079
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:27,760
Hey, what's up, Emmanuel?

1080
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:28,760
How are you doing?

1081
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:29,760
How are you doing?

1082
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:30,760
Make it quick.

1083
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:31,760
Yeah, I run a porn site.

1084
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,760
I just want to tell you that that law that's going to go through actually has already gone through.

1085
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,760
It's definitely a bad thing for traffic.

1086
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,760
That computer expert or whatever was definitely full of crap.

1087
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,760
Well, in 30 seconds or less, tell us why it's bad.

1088
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,760
Well, because traffic is the key to making money on the net.

1089
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:51,760
And if you can get the hits, you can get the bucks, even in the non-adult entertainment world.

1090
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,760
But what if a lot of those hits are coming from six-year-olds?

1091
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,760
I don't know how many hits are coming from six-year-olds.

1092
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:00,760
But I mean, hey, a hit's better than no hit, I guess.

1093
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,760
Okay, well, we're just going to have to leave it at that.

1094
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,760
That's an interesting perspective anyway.

1095
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:09,760
And one I'm sure that lots of people will feed on to prove their point.

1096
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,760
All right, that's it for us this week.

1097
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,760
I think that's it for us next week.

1098
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,760
What does that mean?

1099
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:17,760
It means hurry up, right?

1100
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:18,760
No, it means take your time.

1101
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:19,760
Oh, take my time.

1102
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,760
Well, okay, maybe we'll just stay until next week.

1103
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,760
Do you know if we're on next week?

1104
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,760
Are you on next week?

1105
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:26,760
No, I don't think so.

1106
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:27,760
I think the marathon.

1107
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:28,760
The marathon's on next week.

1108
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:29,760
Okay, how about the week after that?

1109
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:30,760
I think you'll be on.

1110
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:31,760
Oh, really?

1111
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:32,760
So we might be back in two weeks.

1112
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:33,760
Wow.

1113
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,760
Okay, so almost definitely you can make plans for next Tuesday to watch the PJs or something.

1114
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,760
But the week after that, you can – actually, no, what am I saying?

1115
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,760
You have to be here pledging your support to this radio station.

1116
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:45,760
I'm sorry.

1117
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:46,760
I don't know what I was thinking.

1118
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,760
And please do because we're the only radio station covering the Senate trial.

1119
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:55,760
It may seem like a waste of time to a lot of people, but this is history.

1120
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,760
This is history, and if you go up and down the FM dial or even the AM dial,

1121
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,760
you don't find other stations doing this.

1122
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,760
It's fascinating listening, hearing the things that are being said down there,

1123
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:07,760
and people need to hear it.

1124
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,760
People need the option to be able to hear it.

1125
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,760
Yeah, you can go and listen to classic rock for a few minutes,

1126
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,760
but come back and hear what is being said there.

1127
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,760
This is history in the making.

1128
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:18,760
It has not happened in over a century.

1129
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:19,760
Yes, kudos to BAI.

1130
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,760
It's important enough, I think, to – you know, the first day of the trial,

1131
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,760
all the major networks were carrying it, and then all of a sudden they went back to their soap operas

1132
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:27,760
and they don't care anymore.

1133
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,760
But we still do, and I'm glad to be preempted for something important like the marathon,

1134
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,760
to raise money for this station to exist.

1135
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,760
That's it as far as that speech goes.

1136
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,760
We're out of time, we really are, and we'll be back again in two weeks.

1137
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,760
Until then, it's Emmanuel Goldstein for Isaac.

1138
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:45,760
Toodaloo.

1139
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:46,760
Have a good night.

1140
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:47,760
Have a good night.

1141
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,760
Transcription by CastingWords

1142
01:00:46,760 --> 01:01:12,760
.

1143
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,760
Hi, I'm Samori Maxman, Program Director of WBNR-Radio.

1144
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,760
As many of you know, we have been airing the Senate's impeachment trial of President Clinton.

1145
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,760
A few of you have called to ask why we chose to air this broadcast.