1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 American Art Auction, a first-edition book auction, book raffles, and a free book giveaway. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,000 A book lover's dream come true. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000 There's a small donation, and children under 10 will be admitted free of charge. 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,000 Proceeds to benefit TALA, a non-profit literary organization. 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,000 For further information, call 212-714-5316. 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,000 That's 212-714-5316. 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,000 212-714-5316. 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:55,000 Thank you for calling the New York Times. 9 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,000 If you are calling from a touchtone telephone, please press 1 now. 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,000 Otherwise, remain on the line, and a New York Times operator will assist you. 11 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Please hold while we transfer you to the operator. 12 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 New York Times? 13 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Hi, is this the New York Times? 14 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000 Yes, it is. 15 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Is your website up? 16 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I heard it was down for a while. 17 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,000 Really? 18 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Yeah. 19 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,000 Do you know what's going on? 20 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 I don't know, sir. 21 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,000 They're closed, and I can't get an answer, but I could give you a phone number. 22 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Maybe their switchboard might have stayed open later. 23 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,000 I checked it, and there was all this, you know, this obscenity. 24 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,000 I'm sorry, we have a bad connection. 25 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,000 I can hardly hear you. 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,000 I just got all this indecency and sexually oriented stuff. 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000 Yeah. 28 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,000 I don't know if that's the kind of stuff the New York Times prints. 29 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,000 No, not at all, sir. 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,000 There is, like, we've been having trouble with hackers. 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Uh-huh. 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Is one of their names Kevin Starr, by chance? 33 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,000 I don't know the details. 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,000 That's where I saw all the sexually explicit material, and I was just kind of concerned. 35 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000 Yes, we're aware of the problem. 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000 I can give you the website's number if you want to inquire. 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Okay, go ahead. 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 It's 597-8001. 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,000 Thank you very much for your help. 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,000 Thank you. 41 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,000 Good night. 42 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Good night. 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,000 Good night. 44 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000 Good night. 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Good night. 46 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Good night. 47 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Good night. 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Good night. 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,000 Good night. 50 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,000 Good night. 51 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,000 Good night. 52 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Good night. 53 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,000 Good night. 54 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Good night. 55 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Good night. 56 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,000 Good night. 57 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000 Good night. 58 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Good night. 59 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Good night. 60 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Good night. 61 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Good night. 62 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,000 Good night. 63 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Good night. 64 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 Good night. 65 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Good night. 66 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000 Good night. 67 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,000 Good night. 68 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Good night. 69 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Good night. 70 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Good night. 71 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Good night. 72 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,000 Good night. 73 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Good night. 74 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000 Good night. 75 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Good night. 76 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,000 Good night. 77 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Good night. 78 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Good night. 79 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000 Good night. 80 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Good night. 81 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,000 Good night. 82 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 Good night. 83 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Good night. 84 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Good night. 85 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Good night. 86 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Good night. 87 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000 Good night. 88 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000 Good night. 89 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,000 Good night. 90 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,000 Good night. 91 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Good night. 92 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Good night. 93 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,000 Good night. 94 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Good night. 95 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:21,000 Good night. 96 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Good night. 97 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Good night. 98 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Good night. 99 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,000 Good night. 100 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Good night. 101 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,000 Good night. 102 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Good night. 103 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Good night. 104 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Good night. 105 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Good night. 106 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,000 Good night. 107 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Good night. 108 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,000 Good night. 109 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,000 Good night. 110 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Good night. 111 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Good night. 112 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Good night. 113 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Good night. 114 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:40,000 Good night. 115 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,000 Good night. 116 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Good night. 117 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,000 Good night. 118 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000 Good night. 119 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,000 Good night. 120 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,000 Good night. 121 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,000 Good night. 122 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Good night. 123 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 Good night. 124 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,000 Good night. 125 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,000 Good night. 126 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Good night. 127 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Good night. 128 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Good night. 129 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,000 Good night. 130 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,000 Good night. 131 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Good night. 132 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,000 Good night. 133 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:10,000 Well, we have a busy night ahead of us, don't we? 134 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,000 A lot to talk about. 135 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,600 This is Off The Hook Emmanuel Goldstein with you. Stay tuned. 136 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,040 Hey. 137 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,040 Yeah. 138 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,040 Oh, yeah. 139 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:57,040 Have you ever asked yourself who holds the key that winds up Big Ben? 140 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,080 Yeah. 141 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,080 And good evening to everybody. 142 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:15,080 The program is Off The Hook and we've got our hands full tonight with all kinds of news reports and updates. 143 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,080 I'm sure everyone's heard about it by now. 144 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:26,080 I'm sure you've all gotten the updates from every media source there is that the New York Times website got hacked on Sunday. 145 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,120 Big time. 146 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:29,120 Oh, boy. 147 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,120 They didn't mess around this time, did they? 148 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:40,120 And basically, even though this is something that I think might have gotten Kevin Mitnick a little bit angry or upset or frustrated 149 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,120 because everyone thinks that he did this, that he's somehow the mastermind behind the whole thing. 150 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:54,120 Even with that, I think a lot of good has come out of it and that people are starting to ask questions. 151 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:01,160 So I was looking around on the Kevin Mitnick website, www.kevinmitnick.com, looking at the stats page. 152 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,160 And everybody can click on this if you go over to that site. 153 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,160 On Saturday, we had 13,534 hits. 154 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,160 That's just like a normal day. 155 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,160 On Sunday, 62,582. 156 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,160 And there's a little bar graph here and it just kind of goes all the way across the page. 157 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,200 It's really, really pretty wacky there. 158 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,200 So, yeah, that's definitely a cause and effect. 159 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:35,200 Now, of course, a lot of people were trying to access the website for sexually explicit material of a different nature. 160 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,200 And they weren't able to get it there and they were able to get it in all kinds of other places. 161 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,200 CNN, MSNBC, all the other places that had the Ken Starr report on there. 162 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,200 So it wasn't really that much of an inconvenience to the public. 163 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,240 The New York Times says it was a big inconvenience to them. 164 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Let me read you the article that showed up on their webpage once it finally came back up. 165 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:06,240 A group calling for the release of an imprisoned computer hacker commandeered the New York Times site on the World Wide Web for several hours on Sunday. 166 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,240 They commandeered it. 167 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,240 They moved in there with tanks and troops. 168 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,240 And what a bloody battle it was. 169 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:19,280 The incident forced the newspaper's electronic edition to shut down at a time when traffic was particularly heavy 170 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,280 because of Friday's release of the Whitewater Independent Council's report over the Internet. 171 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,280 Now, speaking of that report, I just want to point out two things here. 172 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:32,280 Number one, that was indecent material by anyone's definition. 173 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:41,280 I mean, I was shocked by some of the things that were being done with all kinds of objects and people and things that are alleged in that report. 174 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,320 And the Republican Congress insisted that it be put on the Met. 175 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,320 I mean, that's amazing, isn't it? 176 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:55,320 They basically broke all their indecency rules and clauses and paranoia that they've been putting out for the last few years. 177 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,320 So apparently when it suits them, it's okay. 178 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,320 What the rest of us, we have to toe the line. 179 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:07,360 And the other thing, the other thing concerning this that I thought was really kind of amazing 180 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:15,360 is that when the documents were released to the, brought by Ken Astoria to the government 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:22,360 and locked up in that vault for 24 hours, they were already in HTML format. 182 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Yeah, they didn't do all this in one day. 183 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,360 They didn't put it all in nice text format for HTML. 184 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,400 No, it was all that way to begin with. 185 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,400 So what does that tell you? 186 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,400 It tells you that they were ready for this. 187 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,400 They knew it was going to be going up on the web. 188 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,400 And that whole discussion where they sort of voted on it was kind of a formality. 189 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,400 They knew exactly where it was going from the beginning. 190 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,400 So I thought that was kind of interesting right there. 191 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,400 Anyway, getting back to the story about the Times site. 192 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:58,400 Instead of the Times opening screen, some visitors to the site early Sunday morning saw a logo marked HFG. 193 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:06,440 With images of nude women and a diatribe that included attacks on the Times' past coverage 194 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:12,440 of the imprisoned hacker, Kevin Mitnick, who has been in jail since his arrest in February 1995. 195 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,440 Except they don't say that he has not had any bail. 196 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,440 He has not been on trial. 197 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,480 Officials of the New York Times Electronic Media Company, 198 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,480 the division of the company that handles operations on the web, 199 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,480 shut down the site after the break-in was discovered 200 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:35,480 and didn't restore service until 7.35 p.m. after securing the site's computers. 201 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,480 Joseph Vigil, who was a member of the Times' press corps, 202 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,520 had opened an investigation into the break-in. 203 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,520 They're going to track these guys down. 204 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,520 Martin Nisenholtz, president of the division, 205 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:03,520 said late Sunday that the company did not yet know how the hacker organization was going to deal with the site. 206 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:05,560 Martin Nisenholtz, president of the division, 207 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:10,560 said late Sunday that the company did not yet know how the hacker organization, 208 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:14,560 HFG, or Hacking for Girlies, 209 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,560 yeah, had breached its security. 210 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:18,560 But he speculated... 211 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:24,560 He speculated that the attack was timed to coincide 212 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,560 with the increased traffic to the site 213 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:31,560 in the wake of the publication of the report by the Whitewater Information Agency. 214 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,600 in the wake of the publication of the report by the Whitewater Independent Counsel Kenneth W. Starr. 215 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,600 This is a much more destructive weekend to be doing this than normal, 216 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:41,600 Nisenholtz said. 217 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,600 We were running 35 percent above normal on Saturday, 218 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,600 and typically Sunday is twice as big as Saturday. 219 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,600 Well, it certainly was for the Kevin Mitnick site. 220 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,600 The Times' attack appears to be the first time 221 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,600 the website of a major news organization has been penetrated by hackers. 222 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,600 But computer security experts noted 223 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,640 that attacks on high-profile targets are by no means rare. 224 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,640 The approaching trial in January of Mitnick, 225 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,640 who has been in jail since his arrest for parole violation 226 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,640 and several federal felony counts in early 1995, 227 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,640 also appears to have galvanized some members of the computer underground. 228 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,640 The group that took over the Times' site 229 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,640 directed some of its comments at John Markoff, 230 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:30,680 the Times reporter who covered Mitnick's arrest. 231 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,680 Don't say anything about him helping to orchestrate his arrest, 232 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,680 but I guess they'll cover that sometime in the future. 233 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,680 Earlier this year, Yahoo, the biggest Internet search engine site, 234 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:47,680 was hacked by a group proclaiming its support for Mitnick. 235 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,680 And this summer, the hacker magazine 2600 led a small protest 236 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,680 outside the Manhattan offices of Miramax Films, 237 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,720 which is producing a movie based on the book Takedown. 238 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,720 Well, once the trial date comes closer, 239 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,720 we're going to see a strengthened effort in hacking websites 240 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,720 to get the Kevin Mitnick name known, 241 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,720 predicted John... 242 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,720 Branisevich. Yeah, I said it right. 243 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,720 Founder of Anti-Online, a website that tracks hacker activity. 244 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,720 HFG buried additional comments within the source code of the page, 245 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,720 the computer instructions that underlie the page. 246 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,720 Those comments were less threatening, 247 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,720 lacked the creative spellings, 248 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,720 and included quotes from Tennyson, Emerson and Voltaire. 249 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,720 In case you don't know, those were hackers from centuries past. 250 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,720 They also got in a lot of trouble. 251 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,720 HFG also said they hacked the page because they were bored 252 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,720 and wanted to make people laugh. 253 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,720 The story made the front page of yesterday's New York Times 254 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,720 actually a little pointed to another page. 255 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,720 Hackers strike the Times. 256 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,720 The New York Times shut down its website, 257 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,720 webpage after computer hackers took control of the site, page A12. 258 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,720 Funny thing is, it wasn't on page A12. 259 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,760 I guess hackers moved it to page A18. 260 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,760 Who knows? 261 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,760 So we had articles in the New York Times about this. 262 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,760 A bigger piece in today's Newsday. 263 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,760 A tiny piece in yesterday's Newsday. 264 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,760 A brief mention in the New York Post. 265 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,800 Actually, no, a full-fledged article in the New York Post. 266 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,800 And a very interesting story in the Daily News. 267 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,800 Readers who logged on to the New York Times website yesterday, 268 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,800 perhaps to read more details of Kenneth Starr's impeachment report, 269 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,800 got something even more explicit on their computer screens. 270 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,840 A group of hackers calling itself Hacking for Girls. 271 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,840 They even got that wrong, didn't they? 272 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,840 That wasn't the right name. 273 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,840 Wasn't it Hacking for Girlies or something like that? 274 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:28,840 Yeah. 275 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:30,840 This is the Daily News for you. 276 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,840 Hacking for Girls took over the paper's website yesterday morning 277 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,840 and posted pictures of nude women. 278 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,840 Now, that's the other thing, OK? 279 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,840 Everyone's saying this. 280 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,840 Everyone's saying that there's obscenity and pornography 281 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,840 and that's not true. 282 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,880 Everyone's saying that there's obscenity and pornography on the site. 283 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,880 There wasn't any pornography. 284 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,880 In fact, Channel 4 showed the whole thing right on TV. 285 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,880 They didn't even censor it. 286 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,880 It basically had images that were sort of obscured. 287 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,880 And if you used your imagination, 288 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,880 you could imagine what they look like without clothing on, 289 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,880 but they weren't like that on the website. 290 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,880 And if you don't believe me, 291 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,880 go over to the 2600 website right now 292 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,880 and look at the mirror image that we have posted on there. 293 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,880 You'll see for yourself. 294 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,920 Maybe it's part of a nipple or something like that, 295 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,920 but come on, that's not pornography. 296 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Sorry, it just isn't. 297 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,920 At least not in my book. 298 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,920 Anyway, OK, so they posted pictures of nude women, 299 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,920 according to the Daily News, 300 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,920 on a weekend when the site was receiving record traffic. 301 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,920 Times technicians reposted the site more than once, 302 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,920 only to see the hackers overlay the pornographic pictures. 303 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,920 Here we go. 304 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,920 Finally, the paper pulled the plug for the day. 305 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,920 The cyber outlaws also posted a manifesto 306 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,960 protesting against the Times' technology correspondent, 307 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,960 John Markoff, 308 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,960 and calling for the release 309 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,960 of incarcerated hacker Kevin Mitnick. 310 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,960 Markoff co-authored a book 311 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,960 about the 1995 capture of the hacker 312 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,960 who broke into the computer systems 313 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,960 of such companies as Motorola and Fujitsu, 314 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,960 and this reporter apparently 315 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,960 has never heard of the word, allegedly. 316 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,960 Mitnick also was arrested in 1983 317 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,960 for breaking into a Pentagon computer network 318 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,000 the prototype of today's intranet. 319 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,000 Yeah, people were kind of surprised. 320 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,000 You didn't know that, did you? 321 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Well, hang your head in shame. 322 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000 You didn't know that little fact 323 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,000 about Kevin Mitnick 324 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,000 that he was arrested in 1983 325 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,000 for breaking into the Pentagon. 326 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,000 It's pretty unbelievable, isn't it? 327 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,000 Well, you know, 328 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,000 the reason it's unbelievable 329 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,000 is because it never happened. 330 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,000 Never happened. 331 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,040 Never happened. 332 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,040 I mean, 333 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,040 this is just unbelievable 334 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,040 how the papers are able 335 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,040 to spread nonsense around 336 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,040 with absolutely no basis in reality. 337 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,040 No basis at all. 338 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,040 That was written by Bill Egbert. 339 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,040 He's the convicted dog rapist, isn't he? 340 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,040 I've heard of him. 341 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,040 Yeah, no, this guy was convicted 342 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,040 of raping dogs all over his neighborhood. 343 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,080 I can't tell you how I know this, 344 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,080 but that's what I heard. 345 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,080 So I'm going to go around telling everybody 346 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,080 that's what it is. 347 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,080 I mean, this guy has absolutely no basis in reality 348 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,080 for saying Kevin Mitnick broke into the Pentagon in 1983 349 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,080 yet he puts it into a newspaper story. 350 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,080 So from this point on, Bill Egbert, 351 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,080 that's what you're going to be known as, 352 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,080 The Daily News. 353 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Call The Daily News. 354 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Ask them how they can hire people like this. 355 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,080 I don't mean the dog rapist part. 356 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,080 I mean the reporting part, 357 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,120 but speaking of good reporting, 358 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,120 we have a real reporter on the line with us. 359 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:36,120 You may have heard the name Simpson Garfinkel, 360 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,120 reporter for the Boston Globe, 361 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,120 author of several technology books. 362 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,120 Simpson, are you still with us up there in Boston? 363 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,120 I'm here. 364 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,120 I'm sorry if I went on too long there. 365 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,120 We had you on hold the whole time. 366 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:50,120 Quite a story. 367 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:52,120 Quite a story this weekend, isn't it? 368 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,120 I can barely hear you. 369 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,120 Can you turn up the volume? 370 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,120 I don't think there's any way to turn up the volume, 371 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,160 about this. 372 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,160 How bad is it? 373 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,160 Can you make me out at all? 374 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,160 Yeah, you're like a 2 on the scale of 1 to 10. 375 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,160 Yeah, that's what a lot of people say. 376 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,160 But, 377 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,160 I don't think there's any way we can get you 378 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,160 any better than this. 379 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,160 So, hopefully, 380 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,160 I'll try to talk loud without over-modulating. 381 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,160 So now, 382 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,160 were you able to hear what we were talking about? 383 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,160 Oh yes, I heard it all. 384 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,160 When did you become aware 385 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,200 of what was going on with the Times? 386 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,200 Well, you know, I feel that I sort of missed out 387 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,200 on it because I was 388 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,200 walking around a supermarket 389 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,200 and my cell phone rang 390 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,200 and it was a reporter 391 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,200 from Ziff Davis 392 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,200 from ZD Online who wanted some quotes 393 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,200 from me about what had happened 394 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,200 and I first had to be briefed 395 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,200 on what had happened. 396 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,200 The surprising thing was 397 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,200 how little coverage 398 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,200 this hack got in other news 399 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,240 media. 400 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,240 It got a mention on 401 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,240 NPR and it got a mention 402 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,240 on NPR the next day. 403 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,240 But, on the whole, 404 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,240 I think that the implications of this 405 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,240 were really severe. 406 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,240 You see that the hackers, instead of 407 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,240 just putting up their black pages, 408 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,240 they could have put up a 409 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,240 fictitious New York Times 410 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,240 which looked like a regular New York Times 411 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,240 but had new articles in it. 412 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,240 That's definitely true. 413 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,280 That's the thing. A lot of people that 414 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,280 hack webpages haven't really thought 415 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,280 out the site that they 416 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,280 want to hack. They don't have it prepared in advance 417 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,280 so basically what they wind up putting on is 418 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,280 a spur of the moment type of a thing 419 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,280 or maybe even a copy of something that was 420 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,280 put up before someplace else. 421 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,280 I'm always very surprised that 422 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,280 in my book, Web Security and Commerce, 423 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,280 we talk about the hack on the Department of Justice 424 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,280 website and on the CIA website 425 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,280 and those are sites where 426 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,280 you could have really damaged 427 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,320 the character and the faith of the 428 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,320 United States government 429 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,320 by putting up very interesting 430 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,320 pieces of information. 431 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,320 That kind of thing has been happening over 432 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,320 in East Timor 433 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,320 where people have been hacking websites there 434 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,320 and it's been causing 435 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,320 quite a bit of controversy because 436 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,320 that's really where political things 437 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,320 are happening. People are getting shot for expressing 438 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,320 their opinions and things like that. 439 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,320 These websites are being hacked relentlessly 440 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,320 over and over again and the word 441 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,360 that is opposed to what the government wants 442 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,360 to be put out is being put out instead 443 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,360 on their dime. 444 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,360 That's true political action right there 445 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,360 using the net. I think you're seeing 446 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,360 the same thing down in Mexico too. 447 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:32,360 The second thing that 448 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,360 really surprised me about the New York Times 449 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:36,360 case was the 450 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:38,360 Times saying that they don't know how it happened. 451 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:40,360 I was in a 452 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,360 room with a friend who was reading the web 453 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,360 and he gave me a very detailed 454 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,360 description of how it happened just by 455 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,400 looking at publicly available websites. 456 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,400 I don't understand why 457 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400 the folks at the New York Times don't have 458 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,400 access to those same websites. 459 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,400 It's interesting. I think they're kind of holding back 460 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,400 on some information there which is 461 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,400 kind of weird being a newspaper that you 462 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,400 suppress information but since they can't do it 463 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,400 let's do it for them. 464 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,400 What are some of the theories being 465 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,400 bandied about as far as how this actually took 466 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,400 place? Allegedly the 467 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,400 penetration happened using 468 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,400 the Times website 469 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,440 which was running on a computer 470 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,440 running the Unix operating system 471 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,440 and they were running an 472 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,440 unsecure service called 473 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,440 StatD. 474 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,440 I think about six months ago 475 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,440 a penetration, a vulnerability 476 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,440 in the StatD program was widely 477 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,440 circulated and allegedly 478 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,440 that's what the attackers used to 479 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,440 get access. 480 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,440 Sounds simple enough. 481 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,440 It sounds simple enough. 482 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,480 On the 483 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,480 National Public Radio this morning 484 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,480 John McJosney reported that 485 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,480 two years ago 486 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,480 the New York Times 487 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,480 we have a 488 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,480 second phone line in the house 489 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,480 that's my wife's line 490 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,480 allegedly the New York Times 491 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,480 had been audited 492 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,480 by Belcor 493 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,480 two years ago and Belcor at the time 494 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,520 said it was the 495 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,520 most secure site they'd ever audited 496 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,520 but that was two years ago 497 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,520 and things move fast. That's right, you gotta keep up 498 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,520 with the times, keep up with the exploits. 499 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,520 It's surprising it hasn't been audited since. 500 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,520 The thing 501 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,520 that we found surprising was that 502 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,520 they were running any services on 503 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,520 their website other than 504 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,520 their web server 505 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,520 because strictly speaking from a security 506 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,520 point of view that's not really a good idea. 507 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,520 Right. 508 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,520 The 509 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,520 interview 510 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,520 that they did Sunday night with National Public Radio 511 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,520 said how 512 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,520 the system administrators 513 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,520 at the times detected the change 514 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,520 they changed the page back 515 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,520 and then a few moments later it was changed 516 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,520 back to the hacker page. Right. 517 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,520 And this went back and forth and back and forth 518 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,520 tug of war. The hackers had 519 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,520 access to their computer and they finally pulled the plug. 520 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,520 But 521 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,520 in the 522 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,560 file itself 523 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,560 the hackers say that they had hacked the 524 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,560 crontab and that's a 525 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,560 list of programs that get run automatically 526 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,560 on a regular basis. 527 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,560 So 528 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,560 it seems that the hackers 529 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,560 had just left a program that copied 530 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,560 over the page into the 531 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,560 publishing directory. Well my 532 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,560 understanding from what I got from them, because 533 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,560 they sent a few people mail when they did this 534 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,560 my understanding was that 535 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,560 the New York Times had something funky 536 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,600 going on in their crontab 537 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,600 and perhaps that was overriding the efforts 538 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,600 of the hackers until they found out 539 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,600 how they were doing that and then they went in and 540 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,600 sort of fixed the crontab to do 541 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,600 what they wanted it to do. 542 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,600 That's my theory. 543 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,600 I'm not involved with these hackers in 544 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,600 any way so I 545 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,600 certainly don't know the actual story. 546 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,600 Well now 547 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,600 you were quoted in a story 548 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,600 on Excite 549 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,600 www.excite.com 550 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,640 is where I found 551 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,640 this and 552 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,640 basically there you said that 553 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,640 many people don't understand the importance of having 554 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,640 secure computers all the time. 555 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,640 The people really at fault are the people who 556 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,640 manufacture software that run their servers. 557 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,640 Now I guess you've probably gotten 558 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,640 a bit of heat for saying something like that. 559 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,640 You're fading out 560 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,640 but I believe that 561 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,640 Gene Spafford and I 562 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,640 Gene's my co-author on the Practical 563 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,640 Unix and Internet Security book 564 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,680 For a long time we've been saying 565 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,680 that manufacturers need to be held 566 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,680 responsible for security flaws 567 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,680 in their products. Right now 568 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,680 when you run a program 569 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,680 before you can run it there's this shrink wrap 570 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,680 software license that comes up that 571 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,680 basically says if we delete 572 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,680 all the data on your computer 573 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,680 we're not responsible. 574 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,680 If you lose important information because 575 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,680 of the running of this software 576 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,680 we're not responsible. 577 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,680 If they give you a guarantee at all, the guarantee 578 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,720 is for the replacement cost of the floppy 579 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,720 disk or the CD-ROM that the program 580 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,720 came on. 581 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,720 We think that computers are 582 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,720 extremely important in the 583 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,720 current running of the American economy 584 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,720 and the world economy and the people 585 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,720 who make these machines should be held 586 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,720 liable for the work that they 587 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,720 create. Right, I mean at the same time 588 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,720 these same people will say well if you 589 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,720 do something, hack a website 590 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,720 you should go to prison for five years or something like that 591 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,720 so they're treating it like it's something 592 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,760 really incredibly valuable but 593 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,760 they don't want to take responsibility for something 594 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,760 that valuable. They're saying oh it's only 595 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,760 a CD-ROM, it's only the media 596 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,760 that it comes on, that's all we're going to take responsibility 597 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,760 for. So it 598 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,760 seems rather two-sided there. 599 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,760 It's very troubling 600 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,760 that the companies 601 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,760 will not stand behind their products. 602 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,760 As far as getting the message out about 603 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,760 Kevin, do you think this was 604 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,760 I guess 605 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800 a useful way of spreading 606 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,800 the information? 607 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:00,800 I think it gets the 608 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,800 message out to the people who already know 609 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,800 the message but I 610 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,800 think that it's probably the wrong 611 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,800 way to get the message out to the general 612 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,800 public because it looks like a 613 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,800 fairly destructive vandalizing 614 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,800 act and another 615 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,800 way of doing it might be going 616 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,800 through channels and 617 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,800 placing op-eds 618 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,800 and writing letters 619 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,840 and really trying 620 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840 to make their case. I know 621 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,840 a lot of hackers don't 622 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,840 believe in the system and they 623 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,840 try to bypass the system 624 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,840 but this may be one case 625 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,840 where 626 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,840 a positive PR spin rather than 627 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,840 a vigilante attack might 628 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,840 be better received 629 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,840 because I think 630 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,840 there are a lot of very important issues 631 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,840 in the Michnik case and 632 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840 those issues tend to be ignored 633 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,880 when the people making the point 634 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,880 do so with these means. 635 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,880 I do see your point but at the same 636 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,880 time I know firsthand 637 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,880 the frustration a lot of these people are feeling 638 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,880 as far as working within the system 639 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,880 because this system 640 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,880 has brought us books 641 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,880 like Takedown and movies 642 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,880 and lots of money for the people that 643 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,880 exploit the case 644 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,880 and no justice for the people 645 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,880 that actually are waiting 646 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,880 to have their side heard. 647 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,920 Three and a half years in prison 648 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,920 before a trial for something of this nature 649 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,920 is insane. Most people seem to realize that 650 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,920 but even with that realization 651 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,920 nothing's happening. We're getting the word 652 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,920 out. A lot of people are finding out about it. Everyone's 653 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,920 angry but he's still in prison and 654 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,920 there is no word as to when he can ever 655 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,920 hope to get out. 656 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,920 That's frustration 657 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,920 right there. You feel like the system isn't really 658 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,920 going to work for you. 659 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,920 People have told me that 660 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,920 Michnik's lawyers waived the right to the speedy trial. 661 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,960 Yeah and most people that 662 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,960 wind up in prison waive that right because 663 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,960 the alternative is to 664 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,960 go to trial immediately without having an 665 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,960 opportunity to look at any evidence whatsoever. 666 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,960 I think if Kevin had known what they had in 667 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,960 for him at the outset he never would 668 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,960 have agreed to that. But who has the 669 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,960 benefit of that? 670 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,960 That's something a lot of people don't realize. 671 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,960 He waived the right to a speedy trial 672 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,960 but that does not mean he said 673 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,960 keep me in prison four years before you manage 674 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,960 to bring me up on charges. 675 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,000 It's not really what he had in mind. 676 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,000 It is troubling. 677 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,000 Very, yeah. 678 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,000 I don't know if any damage was done 679 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,000 to the actual site. 680 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,000 What's your opinion on that? Do you think they 681 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,000 did something damaging or just hurt their pride? 682 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,000 You know, I don't have any way of knowing 683 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,000 if there was any damage done. 684 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,000 I also don't know if the site is 685 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,000 within the newspaper's 686 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,000 internal network or not. 687 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,000 New York Times hasn't released any information 688 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,040 along those lines and I don't expect them to. 689 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,040 It seems to get up to alternate 690 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,040 when I do a trace route to it. 691 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,040 It seems to get up to alternate and then there's 692 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,040 some kind of a firewall there I think. 693 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,040 I'm not sure if it was that way before it got hacked though. 694 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,040 It might have been a lot different. 695 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,040 Well, the New York Times 696 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,040 is a target and they've 697 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,040 known that. 698 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,040 People who 699 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,040 are targets should take extraordinary 700 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,040 precautions. 701 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,040 And not be surprised when something like this happens. 702 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,080 I find that very hard to believe 703 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,080 that they actually are shocked and 704 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,080 surprised by this. 705 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,080 People are not afforded the opportunity 706 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,080 to express themselves in lots 707 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,080 of ways. The New York Times has no 708 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,080 obligation to print everybody's 709 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,080 viewpoint because unlike 710 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,080 the public airwaves, 711 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,080 printing presses are owned by corporations 712 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,080 and they don't belong to everybody. 713 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,080 But by the same token, 714 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,080 people are going to feel frustration 715 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,080 by that and they're going to try and 716 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,120 use graffiti art 717 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,120 attempts to get their word out. 718 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,120 And it should be viewed as such. 719 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,120 There is a legitimate message that is being 720 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,120 conveyed here. If someone just went 721 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,120 in there and just erased everything and destroyed 722 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,120 things with the obvious intention of causing 723 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,120 damage, that would be a completely different thing. 724 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,120 But it's obvious that these people were trying to 725 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,120 communicate something. And I think they should 726 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,120 be listened to and I think the security 727 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,120 halls they found should be 728 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,120 looked at as well. Now the New York Times, 729 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,120 I'm looking at some quotes from them, 730 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,160 this is a very serious crime. Once 731 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,160 the hackers are identified, we will prosecute 732 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,160 them to the full extent of the law, said Arthur 733 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,160 Sulzberger, Jr., publisher of 734 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,160 the Times. Sounds like they're just after vengeance. 735 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,160 It is a very serious crime. 736 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,160 It's a serious crime, but it's not a serious 737 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,160 crime like rape and murder 738 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,160 and the real serious crimes out there. 739 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,160 This is something, it's a prank. 740 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,160 It really is a prank and it's easily 741 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,160 recovered from. It's a black 742 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,160 eye to their integrity. Okay, you 743 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,200 learn from it and you move on. 744 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,200 What's going to be gained here 745 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,200 from pursuing these people and 746 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200 locking, I guess somebody's going to write another book 747 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,200 about this and maybe make another movie 748 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,200 so someone's going to gain something. 749 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,200 But I don't think it's going to be the people that did 750 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,200 this. I don't think it's going to be me or 751 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,200 you. It's interesting that all of these 752 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,200 website hacks have been against 753 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,200 high profile sites that were not 754 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,200 doing really commerce. 755 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,200 We haven't 756 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,200 seen or heard about these hacks 757 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,240 against bank sites 758 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,240 or against sites that are online 759 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,240 brokerage houses. 760 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,240 If this had happened against 761 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,240 E-Trade, the online 762 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,240 stock brokerage, I think there 763 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,240 would be a lot more people concerned. 764 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,240 Yeah, yeah, you'll see 765 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,240 some things hitting fans at that point when 766 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,240 that happens and it probably will happen at some 767 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,240 point. 768 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,240 We also have a statement from 769 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,240 Kevin's lawyer, press release actually 770 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,240 came out yesterday. Kevin Mitnick appreciates the 771 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,280 support and good wishes of those who speak out against 772 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,280 his continued state of incarceration for years 773 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,280 without bail. However, he does not 774 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,280 encourage any individuals to engage in 775 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,280 hacking pranks on his behalf. 776 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,280 Kevin believes other avenues 777 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,280 exist that can be more beneficial to his 778 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,280 circumstances. See 779 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,280 www.kevinmitnick.com 780 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,280 Donald C. Randolph, Randolph and Levanus 781 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,280 attorneys at law. 782 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,280 Like I said before, 783 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,280 it brought a lot of people to the website that might 784 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,280 not have been there before and 785 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,320 they may have learned something. 786 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,320 They may have learned something. I was reading 787 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,320 some feedback on 788 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,320 various forums. 789 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,320 I think it was 790 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,320 MSNBC. 791 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,320 MSNBC has a BBS that they're 792 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,320 running and 793 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,320 basically 794 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,320 this person 795 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,320 was one of the people who was a link 796 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,320 on the website. 797 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,320 He runs anti-Scientology 798 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,320 websites. I guess 799 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,360 these people had something in for them as well because 800 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,360 they put his link there too. 801 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,360 I am the creator of one of the pages 802 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,360 that was linked from the New York Times hacked 803 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,360 page. www. 804 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,360 Scientology-kills.net 805 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,360 In the hours following the hack 806 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,360 I received more than 3,000 hits to 807 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,360 my page and tons of email. 808 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,360 Needless to say, this rather baffled me 809 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,360 and it wasn't until someone mentioned the hack in an email 810 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,360 to me that I first became aware of it. 811 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,360 Also included among the links on the page 812 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,400 was another link to Scientology critical information. 813 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,400 I'm not quite sure what to think 814 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,400 of this. In one sense, I'm 815 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400 thankful for the increased exposure that they've given 816 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,400 to the Scientology criticism 817 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,400 taking place on the net and in another sense 818 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,400 I question the methods. 819 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,400 Perhaps their causes are worthwhile. Kevin Mitnick's 820 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,400 situation is an injustice, throwing 821 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,400 every other reason aside. The fact that he 822 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,400 spent over three years in jail without trial 823 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,400 alone is outrageous beyond 824 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,400 words. 825 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,400 As for the publicity provided 826 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,440 to my page as a result of this, I wouldn't have asked for it 827 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,440 but I'll accept it with a smile and a slightly 828 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,440 confused shrug. 829 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,440 That person definitely feeling 830 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,440 the effects of the hack. And also 831 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,440 I'm finding a lot of the people that are commenting on 832 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,440 this are aware of the Kevin Mitnick case 833 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,440 and I think that's really good. They're saying, okay 834 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,440 this is an injustice. This should be 835 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,440 focused on. And I have to say, today 836 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,440 alone I got an excess 837 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,440 of five phone calls from 838 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,440 reporters interested in the Kevin Mitnick 839 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,440 case. This did not happen last week. 840 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,480 It didn't happen last month. 841 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,480 People weren't interested. Now all of a sudden it's thrust 842 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,480 in their faces and they're interested. 843 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,480 Everyone's talking about the demonstration outside 844 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,480 Miramax. Like it was this big, massive 845 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,480 1968 Democratic Convention thing 846 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,480 but it was two dozen of us 847 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,480 from the radio station, from the city, 848 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,480 from the 2600 meetings that just went down there 849 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,480 and showed our opinion and 850 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,480 made our opinions vocal 851 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,480 and 852 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,480 it's being looked at now 853 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,480 months later as something really significant 854 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,520 and we knew back then it was significant 855 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,520 but it's nice to see it get some recognition. 856 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,520 Here's another bit of feedback from 857 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,520 MSNBC 858 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,520 This is in response to people that 859 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,520 called the website hackers idiots. 860 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,520 This person said, you missed something 861 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,520 check the source. I wouldn't be so quick to brand them 862 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,520 idiots. If you look at the source code 863 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,520 and you can do this on the 2600 site too 864 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,520 in the mirror of the hacked page 865 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,520 you'll see that they 866 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,520 speak in normal English. 867 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,520 You might think by looking at the actual 868 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,560 page that they're incapable of speaking in anything 869 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,560 but all caps and numbers 870 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,560 but that's just 871 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,560 I don't know how to describe that. It's just a 872 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,560 colloquialism or something. 873 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,560 They speak in real English if you look at the 874 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,560 page source. In Netscape just click on 875 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,560 view and look at page source and you'll see that there's 876 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,560 actual real commentary going on there along with 877 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,560 all kinds of quotes from those hackers 878 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,560 named Voltaire and Tennyson and Milton 879 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,560 and people like that. Just because hackers 880 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,560 can't as a general rule spell doesn't 881 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,560 mean that they are stupid. 882 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,600 I'd like to see you, the person who commented 883 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,600 before this, take down the New York 884 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,600 Times. You have to understand that most of these people 885 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,600 don't give a rat's ass about what you think 886 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,600 about their spelling. Sometimes I 887 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,600 question their use of text that is so difficult to read 888 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,600 people often miss their message because 889 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,600 of it. However, if you are willing to look 890 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,600 the message is there. Hackers 891 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,600 only really want freedom. Freedom from large 892 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,600 corporations and governments mainly 893 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,600 but also freedom of speech, freedom of action 894 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,600 and freedom of information. They hate injustice 895 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,600 and greed. They don't want to destroy but 896 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,640 they want to explore and communicate. 897 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,640 Truly are their goals any different from 898 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,640 our own? Was there any permanent damage 899 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,640 to the New York Times site? All 900 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,640 HFG wanted to do was grab a few minutes 901 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,640 of air time to express their opinions 902 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,640 and have a little bit of fun doing it. 903 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,640 For those of you who may have missed the message 904 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,640 or messages, I would like to repeat what seems 905 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,640 to be the primary reason for the attack. 906 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,640 Kevin Mitnick, an admitted hacker, has been in prison 907 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,640 since 1995 without a trial or even 908 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,640 a bail hearing for quote unquote 909 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,640 crimes that not done using 910 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,680 would seem petty and would probably 911 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,680 be dismissed. However, the federal government 912 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,680 has decided to drag Mitnick's 913 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,680 name through the mud and make an example 914 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,680 of him to discourage others. 915 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,680 Since then, he has become a sort of folk hero 916 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,680 and many hackers support his efforts 917 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,680 to clear his name. For more information 918 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,680 www.kevinmitnick.com 919 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,680 is a good place to start along with news 920 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,680 and background information. They also have a 921 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680 counter that records how long Kevin has been 922 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,680 unfairly imprisoned. As of this 923 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,680 writing, it stands at over three years, six months 924 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:41,720 26 days, 10 hours 925 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:43,720 31 minutes, 48 seconds. Actually, it's gone 926 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:45,720 over three years, seven months by now. 927 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:47,720 Believe it or not, hackers have feelings 928 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:49,720 too. And 929 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:51,720 really intelligent posts like this I'm 930 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:53,720 seeing on the feedback sections where people 931 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:55,720 are actually aware of the issues 932 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,720 and they're not just 933 00:37:57,720 --> 00:37:59,720 going to the usual, lock the hackers 934 00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,720 up, they're the biggest threat to society 935 00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:03,720 you know, since Attila the Hun. 936 00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,720 I'm glad to see people 937 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:07,720 are thinking this through and realizing, hey, there are 938 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,760 two sides to every story and actually reading 939 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,760 the information. 940 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,760 Kind of surprised by it, to tell you the truth, but 941 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,760 it's good to see. 942 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,760 Simpson, you want to stay with us for some 943 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,760 phone calls? Oh, I'd like that a lot. 944 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,760 Okay. We're at 212-209-2900. 945 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,760 The program is 946 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,760 Off the Hook. Emmanuel Goldstein here with you tonight. 947 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,760 We're talking about the New York Times 948 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,760 hack on Sunday. The New York 949 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,760 Times webpage was brought 950 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,760 down to its knees by 951 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,760 a bunch of hackers called HFG that 952 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,800 were spreading the news about Kevin Mitnick 953 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,800 among some other things as well, but Kevin Mitnick was the 954 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,800 main topic and 955 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,800 I think they really succeeded in getting 956 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,800 the word out in ways that I don't think we were able 957 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,800 to do. And that's got to tell 958 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,800 you something. Here we have a 50,000-watt 959 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,800 radio station. We've got a magazine 960 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,800 that has tons of distribution 961 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,800 throughout bookstores in the country 962 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,800 and we've had demonstrations 963 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,800 and bumper stickers and things like that, but I think 964 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,800 this one action, this one 965 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,800 thing that happened on Sunday got more 966 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,840 attention in that one shot than 967 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,840 anything that we've done before this. 968 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,840 I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a cumulative effect. 969 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,840 Maybe we've gotten to more people, but just 970 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840 feels, maybe because it's hitting us all at once 971 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,840 that they really got through to 972 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,840 a lot of people. And, you know, maybe there are 973 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,840 other ways of doing this, of getting the word out, 974 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,840 of spreading information that won't 975 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,840 result in federal indictments. I don't know. 976 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,840 If people have ideas, please 977 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,840 let us know. 212-209- 978 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,840 2900. Let's take our 979 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,840 first phone call. Good evening. You're on the air. 980 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,880 Hi. You know, the Kevin Mennonite site was hacked. 981 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,880 Did you know that? Goodbye. 982 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,880 Good evening. You're on the air. 983 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,880 Yes. Okay. The New York Times 984 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,880 wants to prosecute 985 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,880 and convict the 986 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,880 people who hacked the website. 987 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,880 Well, here's a challenge. It goes out 988 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,880 to John Markoff and to 989 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,880 Shimomura. Go track them down. 990 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,880 If you're as good as you say you people are, 991 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,880 Shimomura and 992 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,880 Markoff, go find them. Markoff, of 993 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,880 all people, should take this personally 994 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,920 to heart, considering part of that page 995 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,920 was directed towards him, and that's all 996 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,920 I have to say. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for calling. 997 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,920 And, you know, I understand Shimomura's 998 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,920 beeper has gone off. He's canceled 999 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,920 a ski trip, which is 1000 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,920 really pissing him off no end, and he's right 1001 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,920 now on a plane heading for some unknown 1002 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,920 town, and nobody knows what he's 1003 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,920 going to do there, but he's already writing down what he ate 1004 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,920 on the plane, so 1005 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,920 I think the second book is almost out. 1006 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,920 Well, you know, John Markoff was quoted 1007 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,920 in National Public Radio this morning 1008 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,960 saying that he believed he knew 1009 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,960 the identities of the people who had done this, and 1010 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,960 he had given that information to the FBI. 1011 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,960 Now, you know, do you think 1012 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,960 the FBI really needs to be involved in this? 1013 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,960 What's going to come out of that? 1014 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,960 It's not going to unhack their site. 1015 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,960 You know, 1016 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,960 that's a very good question. 1017 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,960 I think that overall 1018 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,960 the FBI is extremely 1019 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,960 concerned about the 1020 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,960 threats to the national 1021 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000 computer infrastructure, 1022 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000 and when there is a high 1023 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,000 profile situation like 1024 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,000 this, there's a lot of 1025 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,000 interest in getting involved. 1026 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000 At the same time, I know that they're 1027 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,000 very overextended, 1028 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,000 and I was recently told that 1029 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,000 there are a lot of cases that they're just 1030 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,000 not following up because they don't have the 1031 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,000 time or the manpower. 1032 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,000 It's hard to 1033 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,000 understand or hard to know where this will fall. 1034 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,000 Right. 1035 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,040 All right, let's take another 1036 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,040 listener phone call. 212-209-2900. 1037 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,040 Let's go over here. 1038 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,040 Good evening. You're on the air. Hello. 1039 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,040 How you doing? 1040 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,040 I actually kind of have a legal question 1041 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,040 if you care if I ask you. 1042 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,040 Is it related to the thing on Sunday? 1043 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,040 Well, actually, it's kind of like slanted journalism. 1044 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,040 Same thing happened to me and my friend that 1045 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,040 kind of happened. You know how they're blowing 1046 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,040 the whole article out of proportion? 1047 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,040 Right. 1048 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,040 Me and my friend, 1049 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,080 we got in trouble for harassment 1050 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,080 through prank phone calls, 1051 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,080 which was kind of little 1052 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,080 and stupid. 1053 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,080 Prank phone calls? 1054 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,080 How old are you? 1055 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,080 I'm actually 17. 1056 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,080 It's the kind of thing that 17-year-olds do. 1057 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,080 What do you think about that? 1058 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,080 Yeah, exactly. 1059 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,080 We actually got the article sitting right here. 1060 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,080 The thing is, 1061 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,080 we uploaded it and stuff on the web. 1062 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,080 I can give you the address if you want to see it. 1063 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,120 But the thing is, 1064 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,120 it's so wrong. 1065 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,120 The guy that interviewed me and my friend 1066 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,120 is not even the guy that did the article. 1067 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,120 What was in this paper that printed this? 1068 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,120 It was actually the record. 1069 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,120 The Bergen County? 1070 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,120 It was in Saturday's paper 1071 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,120 under the title, Law and Order 1072 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,120 for Juveniles. 1073 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,120 What record is this, since you could be calling from anywhere in the world? 1074 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,120 New Jersey. 1075 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,120 The Bergen County record? 1076 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,120 Yeah, Bergen County. 1077 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,160 Law and Order for Juveniles 1078 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,160 Arrested for Terrorizing Phone Calls. 1079 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,160 Did they put your name in? 1080 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,160 No, they didn't. 1081 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,160 The thing is, 1082 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,160 How do you know that you're the person 1083 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,160 they're writing about? 1084 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,160 Yes, but the thing is, they totally distorted 1085 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,160 everything that was said. 1086 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,160 Yeah, but maybe they were writing about another 1087 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,160 set of juveniles. 1088 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,160 No, it was us. 1089 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,160 They didn't say our names because we're underage, 1090 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,160 but what they had said 1091 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,200 everything that we had told the cops 1092 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,200 they basically summed it up nicely and changed it around. 1093 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,200 It felt like the article. 1094 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,200 Apparently that stuff comes from 1095 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,200 the police reports. 1096 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,200 If they didn't put your name in, you're lucky. 1097 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,200 Nobody knows 1098 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,200 it was you, so don't tell anybody. 1099 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,200 I think 1100 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,200 what the caller is upset about is the fact that 1101 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,200 he knows it's them, and he's upset 1102 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,200 that the facts have been distorted 1103 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,200 like this. He's not yet 1104 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,200 aware of how journalism works 1105 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:46,240 in some newspapers where the story 1106 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:48,240 is written before they actually talk to the people involved. 1107 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,240 We didn't even go to court yet. 1108 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,240 That's why I was wondering. 1109 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:54,240 Is that not wrong? 1110 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:56,240 They can legally do this? 1111 00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:58,240 Just go and make up shit? 1112 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,240 Almost definitely. The information in that 1113 00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:02,240 came from the police report. 1114 00:44:04,240 --> 00:44:06,240 You really don't have much 1115 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:08,240 recourse in the way 1116 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:10,240 if you're not identifiable 1117 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,240 in the story. You should just be 1118 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,280 glad that you're not identifiable in the story. 1119 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,280 Can you just give us one 1120 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,280 example of what it is that they distorted? 1121 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,280 Here's one. 1122 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,280 We're going to bash your heads in. 1123 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,280 We're going to kill you. 1124 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,280 Something that they had in quotes 1125 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,280 that none of the four people that got in trouble said. 1126 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,280 What kinds of things did you say? 1127 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,320 We were just 1128 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,320 I'll just 1129 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,320 tell you what we said. 1130 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,320 Me and my friend just goofed on them. 1131 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,320 One kid had threatened to 1132 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,320 kill their dog. 1133 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,320 That's much better than bashing 1134 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,320 your head in. 1135 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,320 Another thing, they said 1136 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,320 we know where you live 1137 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,320 and what time you walk your dog. 1138 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,320 That was in quotes 1139 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,320 also. We said that. 1140 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,320 That was another thing we had never ever said. 1141 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,360 Were you calling somebody that you knew? 1142 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,360 No, it was just some 1143 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,360 phone number that this girl had given us. 1144 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,360 And they had a caller ID or something? 1145 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,360 Are you guys familiar 1146 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,360 with the Phone Losers? 1147 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,360 Phone Losers of America? 1148 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,360 No. 1149 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,360 Actually, we've heard of them, yes. 1150 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,360 We went there 1151 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,360 and got inspired. We made prank phone calls. 1152 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,360 We got in trouble. 1153 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,360 You learned your lesson. You're not going to do this anymore, right? 1154 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,360 You advise people not to do this kind of thing 1155 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,400 because it really does get people upset. 1156 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,400 I say this. 1157 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,400 Every newspaper report, 1158 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,400 every TV report that I've been involved in, 1159 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,400 there's always one thing I can point to 1160 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,400 that's wrong. 1161 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,400 They just don't get right. 1162 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,400 If you plan on being in the media a lot, you better get used to that. 1163 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,400 Try to stay out of the media. 1164 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,400 Thanks for calling. 1165 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,400 202-209-2900. Good evening. You're on the air. 1166 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,400 Hi, good evening. 1167 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,400 How are you doing? 1168 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,400 I can hear how you're doing. 1169 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,440 FCC 1170 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,440 and appointed agencies, 1171 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,440 when they 1172 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,440 come down on someone, it's more like a citizen's arrest 1173 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,440 because they really don't have 1174 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,440 law power or legal 1175 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,440 power in a sense, do they? 1176 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,440 They usually bring federal marshals with them 1177 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,440 if you're talking about raiding a private radio 1178 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,440 station or something like that. 1179 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,440 That's how they actually go and get physical. 1180 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,440 But who makes 1181 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,440 the law process 1182 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,440 is a voted upon 1183 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,480 thing, isn't it? 1184 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,480 How do they compare 1185 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,480 to the judicial 1186 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,480 or criminal? It's really not 1187 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,480 in there. 1188 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,480 The FCC commissioner is appointed. 1189 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,480 He's definitely not elected. 1190 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,480 That's a good point. There is not much public say 1191 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,480 in important things. 1192 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,480 The important things that the FCC is involved in right now 1193 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,480 is micro-broadcasting 1194 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,480 and indecency on the air 1195 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,480 to policies which are really 1196 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,520 stifling freedom of speech like you would not believe. 1197 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,520 What I'm getting at is 1198 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,520 can't we attack them on 1199 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,520 when I say attack, don't take 1200 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,520 them away of course, but 1201 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,520 for example, the Environmental Control Board 1202 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,520 if you don't pay the fine 1203 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,520 in their 1204 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,520 notice to you, they say 1205 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,520 that if you don't pay this fine 1206 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,520 we will 1207 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,520 file 1208 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,520 against you in a civil court. 1209 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,560 Okay. 1210 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,560 So that means they're not really a court 1211 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,560 but yet you go through this mock trial 1212 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,560 there's really no justice there. 1213 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,560 I mean, what happened to 1214 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,560 anything that amounts 1215 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,560 to more than $20 you have a right to a trial 1216 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,560 by jury? What happened to the whole 1217 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,560 system that we are supposedly 1218 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,560 operating under? 1219 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,560 I'm not well versed enough in the legalities 1220 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,560 and technicalities to be able to say exactly. 1221 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,560 Simpson, do you have any insight into this? 1222 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,560 Well, you have to understand 1223 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,600 that the FCC is part of the executive branch 1224 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,600 and when Congress passes laws 1225 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,600 they usually leave the implementation 1226 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,600 of those laws up to particular 1227 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,600 federal agencies. 1228 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,600 So the agencies write 1229 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,600 regulations that spell out 1230 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,600 more details in the laws 1231 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,600 and micro-broadcasting 1232 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,600 might fall under that. 1233 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,600 And then the violation 1234 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,600 of regulations can be 1235 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,600 criminal or it can be 1236 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,600 civil and there are usually 1237 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,640 advantages or disadvantages 1238 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,640 to each 1239 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,640 venue. 1240 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,640 If you have a violation 1241 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,640 of regulations and you're taken 1242 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,640 to civil court, you might 1243 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,640 owe money but you won't 1244 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,640 go to jail. 1245 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,640 Whereas the stakes are usually higher in a criminal court. 1246 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,640 So what is this fellow in jail 1247 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,640 for three years for? What are they charging? 1248 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,640 You said that he hasn't been charged. 1249 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,640 No, he's been charged. He has not come to trial. 1250 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,640 What was he charged with? 1251 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,680 What was it specifically? 1252 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,680 It was 1253 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,680 probation violations? 1254 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,680 Violated in terms of previous parole. 1255 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,680 He's been charged with 1256 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,680 possession of access devices. 1257 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,680 Which could be anything from passwords 1258 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,680 to credit card numbers to 1259 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,680 cellular phone information. It could be 1260 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,680 virtually anything. I believe he's been charged 1261 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,680 with cellular telephone fraud. 1262 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,680 Well he pleaded guilty to 1263 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,680 cellular telephone fraud in North Carolina and already 1264 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,680 served his sentence for that. 1265 00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:20,720 So that's 1266 00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:22,720 pretty much it. There's not a whole lot there. 1267 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:24,720 If you look at the indictment, the whole thing is posted on the 1268 00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:26,720 website. So you can see for 1269 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:28,720 yourself just what it is he's charged with. 1270 00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:30,720 You'll be amazed. 1271 00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:32,720 Why is this guy in prison so long? 1272 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:34,720 It's just because of computers. 1273 00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:36,720 Just because of technology. 1274 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,720 It's just 1275 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:40,720 wrong. That's the only way I could say it. 1276 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:42,720 Anyway, thanks for the call. We're going to move on. 1277 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:44,720 212-209-2900. Good evening. You're on off the hook. 1278 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:46,720 Hello? 1279 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,760 Speak up please. 1280 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,760 How are you doing? 1281 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,760 You've got to turn down your radio, Sandra. 1282 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,760 Speak up a bit. 1283 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,760 Your radio is not down because 1284 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,760 I can still hear it. 1285 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,760 You've had other people's opinions 1286 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:04,760 of the hack 1287 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,760 on the New York Times website 1288 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,760 but you haven't said your opinion. 1289 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,760 I think we've expressed 1290 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,760 our opinion, haven't we? 1291 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,760 I'm saying basically that 1292 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,800 it's a fairly 1293 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,800 effective way of getting 1294 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,800 the word out. Honestly, speaking 1295 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,800 personally, I'm kind of glad it happened 1296 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,800 because it might wake 1297 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,800 people up that hey, there's 1298 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,800 other views out there and you'd 1299 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,800 better start paying attention to them. 1300 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,800 They're valid views and I think 1301 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,800 what will make it valid in the eyes of the 1302 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,800 Times and other media outlets 1303 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,800 is the public's reaction to this. 1304 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,800 If the public starts taking more of an interest 1305 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,800 in the issues that were pointed 1306 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,840 out, then they'll say hey, we 1307 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,840 missed the boat on this and maybe we are 1308 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:48,840 somewhat culpable for the way this whole thing 1309 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,840 panned out in the first place and boy, 1310 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,840 we better not let that happen again. Maybe 1311 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,840 that'll happen. Of course, if the 1312 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,840 public comes down on hackers and 1313 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,840 wants to throw us all in prison, well then 1314 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,840 of course they'll take that route. 1315 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,840 I guess it's really in the hands of the public right now. 1316 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,840 Okay. 1317 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:06,840 Thanks for calling. 1318 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,840 212-209-2900. Good evening. 1319 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,840 You're on Off the Hook. 1320 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,880 I want to comment about this. 1321 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,880 First, one brief thing about 1322 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,880 2600 telephone directory. 1323 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,880 I called the other day to 1324 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,880 leave a message about two things on last week's 1325 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,880 show and I wanted to leave you voicemail 1326 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,880 and I pressed Goldstein 1327 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,880 and Goldstein and there was no one there with 1328 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,880 that name, so is it broken or what? 1329 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,880 We got the message, so it got through eventually. 1330 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,880 It's not the best system in the 1331 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,880 world. If anybody out there has a good voicemail system, please 1332 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,880 I'm surprised, you of all people, but 1333 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,880 I guess, you know. It's just we're so busy. 1334 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,920 We have barely enough time to plug in a phone. 1335 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,920 I guess like, you know, a physician healed 1336 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:44,920 ourselves. Just briefly on the case, 1337 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,920 that reporter from 1338 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,920 the Daily News, what was his last name? 1339 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,920 Egbert? The dog rapist? 1340 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:52,920 Hang on, I've got to find that one. 1341 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,920 Well, I think like everyone 1342 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,920 should fax to the Daily News 1343 00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,920 the Voice of the People column 1344 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,920 where they publish like a very 1345 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:02,920 small, limited, one-paragraph 1346 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,920 letter to the editor. If anyone 1347 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,920 listening right now were to fax them 1348 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,960 a letter to the editor and, you know, 1349 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,960 point it at and maybe 1350 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,960 one or two of the letters will get in their 1351 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,960 Voice of the People column if everyone 1352 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,960 listening now with a fax machine does that. 1353 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:18,960 Bill Egbert. It's like 1354 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,960 Dilbert, but Egg instead of Bill. 1355 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,960 Yeah, that's what came to mind. 1356 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,960 A letter to the editor pointing that at. 1357 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,960 And also, but like they shouldn't do anything like 1358 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,960 you know, harassing him 1359 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,960 or tailing him or making his life 1360 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,960 miserable. Just like fax or write a 1361 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,960 letter to the editor because, believe it or not, 1362 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,000 I had a letter to the editor in Saturday's paper. 1363 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And the last thing is a question. 1364 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,000 Wow, we can find out who you are. 1365 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,000 We can find out who you really are this way. 1366 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,000 Oh, I mean, you know, I have CIA agents 1367 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,000 off my wazoo, but a question 1368 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,000 for your guest. You work, 1369 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,000 I take it, for a mainstream 1370 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,000 commercial publication in Boston? 1371 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,000 I'm a columnist 1372 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,000 in the Boston Globe. I put out a column 1373 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,000 once a week called Simpsons Says. 1374 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000 Okay, and just I'd like to know, what is 1375 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,000 the environment there? Because 1376 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,040 I was listening to the show before this, but they were 1377 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,040 talking about the connection with 1378 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,040 the CIA and the media 1379 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,040 and the famous quote by Catherine Graham 1380 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,040 that there are certain things the government 1381 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,040 does that people shouldn't know and 1382 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,040 do you have sort of any 1383 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,040 direct experience with editors 1384 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,040 or the powers that be? 1385 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,040 No, I've never had a CIA agent 1386 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,040 visit me. No, I mean, just in terms 1387 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,040 of telling you editorially what you 1388 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,040 can or can't do, what you have basically 1389 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,040 carte blanche to take even like 1390 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,080 an unpopular perspective 1391 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,080 or opinion. You ever get leaned on by people 1392 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,080 in the parking lot? No, I never get leaned on by anybody. 1393 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,080 Well, like my readers. 1394 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,080 Like you won't get in trouble for being on this radio 1395 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,080 show? Oh no. 1396 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,080 Oh, okay, well, you don't know 1397 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,080 this radio show. I'll tell you that 1398 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,080 there is one thing that gets me in a lot of trouble. 1399 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,080 Whenever I write good things 1400 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,080 about Microsoft 1401 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,080 I get a ton of people 1402 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,080 writing me mail 1403 00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,080 and accusing me of taking money from 1404 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,120 Microsoft. Well, on this radio station 1405 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,120 they call them micro-Satan, but anyway 1406 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,120 thanks for entertaining my call. Alright, 1407 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,120 thanks for entertaining us. 1408 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,120 Well, I guess, you know, you're allowed 1409 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,120 your one fault 1410 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,120 there if you want to say nice things about Microsoft 1411 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,120 because you've said a lot of good things about other things. 1412 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,120 So, 1413 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,120 I'm joking by the way. Yeah. 1414 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,120 Okay. 212-209-2900. 1415 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,120 Let's take one more 1416 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,120 phone call. Good evening, you're on the air. 1417 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,120 Yeah, thank you. The FCC, it's true 1418 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,160 what I was saying, they don't do the arresting 1419 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,160 but in case, for example 1420 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,160 like Napoleon Williams' Black Liberation Radio 1421 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,160 the DA came 1422 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,160 and they arrest the equipment. Right. 1423 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,160 Which is silly, but 1424 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,160 I think you said a very important thing 1425 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,160 the fact that they're just trying 1426 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,160 to get their message across and they were not doing 1427 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,160 anything to harm people 1428 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,160 and I think people at the Times may not even see 1429 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,160 that. They actually might not even realize 1430 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,160 that because they're so intent on saying 1431 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,160 oh, hacking is this horrendous sin. 1432 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,200 They're looking at this in the corporate 1433 00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,200 view and not 1434 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,200 the actual message. Yes. 1435 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,200 It's just that they didn't do anything wrong. 1436 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,200 I think also a commercial advertiser 1437 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,200 should sponsor Kevin. 1438 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,200 They should just track how many 1439 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,200 if you could track how many sites 1440 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,200 were linked and that person that said they had 1441 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,200 like 3,000 replies, you could get 1442 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,200 a commercial sponsor for Kevin. 1443 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,200 Seriously. That would be interesting. 1444 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,200 That would be very interesting. 1445 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,200 Might as well get him a lawyer with it. 1446 00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:25,240 Well, that's the primary thing right now is to raise money 1447 00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,240 for a lawyer and if you want to donate to the 1448 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,240 Mitnick Defense Fund, all the information is right there 1449 00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,240 on the www.kevinmitnick.com 1450 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,240 site and of course it is spelled 1451 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,240 K-E-V-I-N-M-I-T-N-I-C-K 1452 00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,240 One word, no dash, no period 1453 00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:39,240 or anything like that. Let's take one more phone call since we have 1454 00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:41,240 a little bit of time. Good evening, you're on the air. 1455 00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:43,240 Okay, let's take one that doesn't sound quite so bad. 1456 00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:45,240 Good evening, you're on the air. 1457 00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,240 And one that maybe sounds a little louder than that. 1458 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:49,240 Good evening, you're on the air. Okay, maybe 1459 00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:51,240 not that sound either. We're going through 1460 00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,280 them all. Okay, you're the last chance. 1461 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,280 How are you doing? 1462 00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,280 I was just wondering 1463 00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,280 if you heard about the Fox News 1464 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,280 report on Kevin on the site? 1465 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,280 Tell us quickly. We have about 30 seconds. 1466 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,280 Yeah, well, they 1467 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,280 claimed that the reason they hacked it was 1468 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,280 because Kevin Mitnick was their leader 1469 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,280 and they were doing it because of him. 1470 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,280 I heard about this. This was on the local Fox station 1471 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,280 here in New York? Yes, it was. 1472 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,280 Okay, so that would be WNYW Channel 5. 1473 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,280 Kevin Mitnick is their leader? 1474 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,320 That's exactly what they said. They placed 1475 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,320 the calling card to their leader, Kevin Mitnick. 1476 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,320 That's what the hackers did, they said. 1477 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,320 I thought he was pretty much a lone 1478 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,320 operator. 1479 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,320 He definitely is not a leader 1480 00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,320 and he wasn't in any groups like that. 1481 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,320 This is exactly the kind of thing I was mentioning though 1482 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,320 is that the press gets these fundamental 1483 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,320 facts wrong and this turns out to be a very big 1484 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,320 one. Yeah, I'm surprised that they did this. 1485 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,320 Well, imagine what people watching 1486 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,320 Channel 5 News would think seeing that. 1487 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,320 Exactly. They would think Kevin Mitnick is 1488 00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,360 a big terrorist. Yeah, John Gotti sitting 1489 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,360 in prison there commanding people to hack 1490 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,360 websites at will. That definitely 1491 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,360 gets the wrong impression. 1492 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,360 Kevin is very upset at these things and rightfully 1493 00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,360 so. He's a lot more upset than 1494 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,360 I am, obviously, because I can sort of see 1495 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,360 the humor, I can see the good in this. 1496 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,360 He only sees the bad in it because that's all 1497 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,360 he's going to feel. He's going to get blamed 1498 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,360 by idiots at Fox. 1499 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:11,360 I guess the best way to do that is 1500 00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,360 apply pressure to Fox if a lot of people 1501 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,360 contact them and say, hey guys, you got 1502 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,400 this wrong. Of course, they're not going to go on the news 1503 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,400 and say, oh, we made a mistake. Kevin Mitnick 1504 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,400 really isn't the leader. A couple people 1505 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,400 from the Mitnick mailing list actually sent 1506 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,400 a Fox News mail, including myself, saying 1507 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,400 like, I don't know, I'm planning on emailing 1508 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,400 every email address I find at 1509 00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,400 foxnews.com saying 1510 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,400 to post an apology or something. 1511 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,400 Have you gotten a single reply yet? 1512 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,400 I've gotten the standard, oh, yeah, we'll 1513 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,400 send this to blah, blah, blah. By the way, 1514 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,400 we're sending you a free gift, blah, blah, blah. 1515 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,400 See, people wonder why their sites get hacked. 1516 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,440 Why? Right here. Thanks very much 1517 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,440 for calling in. I appreciate it. 1518 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,440 Simpson, I want to thank you very much for joining us tonight. 1519 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,440 Simpson Garfinkel, columnist for the 1520 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,440 Boston Globe. What are some of the books you've 1521 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,440 authored? Well, we have a new book coming 1522 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,440 out in a few weeks called Stopping 1523 00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,440 Spam. It's going to be published 1524 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,440 by Reiling Associates and 1525 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,440 the first quarter of it is all about the history 1526 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,440 of spam and the rest of it is how to protect 1527 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,440 yourself from unwanted junk mail. 1528 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,440 Sounds good. Do you have an email address you want to give out? 1529 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,440 Well, I have a website, actually. 1530 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,480 Simpson.net. 1531 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,480 Simpson.net? Not bad. 1532 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,480 S-I-M-S-O-N period N-E-T 1533 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,480 and if you click there, you'll be able 1534 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,480 to find all the articles I've ever written. 1535 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,480 Okay, great. Thanks so much for joining us. 1536 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,480 Best of luck in the future. This is Emmanuel 1537 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,480 Goldstein for Off The Hook. We'll be back again 1538 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,480 next week with more updates on this story 1539 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,480 and all the other ones that haven't happened yet. 1540 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,480 Until then, have a good night. 1541 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,480 Hi, I'm Barbara Nimri-Aziz, host of Arab Voices Crescent Rising. 1542 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,480 That's our weekly magazine here on WBAI 1543 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1544 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1545 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1546 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1547 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1548 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1549 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1550 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1551 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1552 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1553 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1554 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,480 featuring Arab Voices Crescent Rising 1555 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1556 00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1557 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1558 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1559 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1560 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1561 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:23,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1562 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1563 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1564 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1565 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1566 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1567 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1568 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1569 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1570 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1571 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1572 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1573 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1574 00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1575 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1576 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1577 00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1578 00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1579 00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1580 00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1581 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1582 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1583 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1584 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1585 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1586 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1587 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1588 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1589 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1590 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1591 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1592 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1593 01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1594 01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1595 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1596 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1597 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1598 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1599 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1600 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1601 01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,480 here on WBAI featuring Arab and Muslim peoples 1602 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,480 And the time is 9.01. 1603 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,480 We're having a little bit of technical 1604 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:51,480 difficulties here. 1605 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,480 For finding the theme music 1606 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,480 for finding the theme music 1607 01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,480 to Tahrir and that's coming up right now. 1608 01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,480 I'm Barbara Nimry-Aziz, 1609 01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,480 executive producer of Tahrir, 1610 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:06,200 from 9 o'clock right through to 10 o'clock. 1611 01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,520 And today's show, we are going to be talking 1612 01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:11,280 to Hussein Ibish, our regular commentator 1613 01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,200 from Amherst, Massachusetts. 1614 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,880 And we will also, well, we'll be talking to him 1615 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:22,480 about particularly Iran and the growing tension 1616 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,800 between Iran and Afghanistan. 1617 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,960 Perhaps some of you have been.