Sutomo was asked about the tapes, who I'm sure the two authors are aware of, the tapes,
the taunting answering machine messages.
That's right.
Right.
Sutomo seems to think that Mitnick was working on some sort of conspiracy along with another
gentleman.
It was really funny because he was asked about it and he said, you know, point blank he said,
well, they said, do you have any information on who was on those tapes and, you know, anything
that would lead you further into investigation?
And he said, well, I'm going to duck that question.
And then Markoff pipes in and goes, no, we don't have anything, you know, there's some
trace information, but obviously it's to a payphone and we're never going to find out.
It seems like anything that attacks Sutomo in any way and maligns his credibility or
his elitist status as a hacker or as a security expert in any manner, obviously these phone
calls and that, you know, he doesn't know who they are, is obviously a slap in the face
to him.
But anything that attacks him in any way, he just doesn't want to deal with and pleads
a bit.
Well, you see, the thing is when you put yourself in the public eye and when you, you know,
take part in a story like this, you have to accept some criticism, you have to accept
some questions.
So that's certainly not something that we're just going to let sit.
We're going to keep on with our questions until we get some answers.
Well, and I think the effect of both my book and Just Book are out now and a lot of serious
mainstream journalists and a lot of serious publications, you know, the New Yorker, CNN,
yesterday, as I said, these questions are now being raised.
If he doesn't come to his defense, you know, his reputation just won't be there anymore
because they are really serious questions.
And he really was coddled, you know, by Markov in the New York Times.
And now some of the real facts are coming out and he doesn't look quite so good.
Yeah, there's a review in the Sunday Times that, you know, in Markov's own papers, it
brings up a lot of this stuff also.
Interesting.
I'd like to see that, actually.
212-279-3400.
We have no calls on the line.
I know there are people out there that care about this because you're there week after
week calling us with all kinds of questions.
212-279-3400.
Pledge whatever you can to support WBAI.
If you want a copy of one of the books and you're a new supporter of the radio station,
for a $50 pledge, you will get one of the books, as well as becoming a member of WBAI.
For $150, you will get all three books.
212-279-3400.
This offer is going to expire pretty soon, within the next half hour, so we need to hear
from you.
We're up to 2,000 mark, which, considering we've been on for two and a half hours, or
we're going to be on for two and a half hours, is not really as good as we hoped it would
be.
People are telling me something like 10,000, but I don't think that's, you know, I don't
know.
That would take a miracle.
But it's happened before.
212-279-3400.
Show your support for this radio station.
Show your support for what we are discussing here.
I think whoever is on the tapes, back to that subject, should definitely get a hold of Shimomura
and get a percentage of the profits for this because he keeps referring to it constantly.
It's on the webpage, which I'm not going to promote if you guys want to go find it.
You know what really bothers me, though?
I was at that presentation at the bookstore in New York, and, you know, one of the things
I asked Shimomura, how do you remember what you ate a year ago?
Because if you read the book, he's got like a list of everything he eats, every place
he goes.
I mean...
Hey, Emmanuel, a lot of reviewers are pretty tired of that.
It's, I mean, I really got a good sense of what he's all about.
But he wouldn't answer that.
In fact, he wouldn't answer anything.
He was...
Actually, I believe his answer was, well, they must have been very memorable meals.
No, you know what his answer was?
I asked him, how can you remember this?
You know, that took place a year ago.
And he said, well, it wasn't a year ago.
It was 10 months.
And I was like, oh, well, you got me there.
So I just slinked away back into the corner.
But I'll tell you what really bugged me was when he was showing a demonstration on Dateline NBC.
Did you folks on the phone catch this?
No, I avoided it.
Okay, well, there was...
You know, it was a wonderful publicity piece.
It was.
That's what Dateline NBC was for.
It was amazing because you had Tom Brokaw sort of echoing a story that had been shot,
was about to be shot to pieces by the New Yorker and serious journalist.
And it really showed that, you know, there's a certain part of it, as we said,
this is the difference between radio and TV and print and TV that, you know, he didn't care.
He knew the story wasn't true.
He knew that Jeff and my book were out, which had lots of facts to shoot holes in this.
But, you know, TV is TV.
Well, what really bothered me about this,
and again, I'd like to see some phone calls coming in as I'm relating this,
222-279-3400.
Every phone call makes a big difference.
Let's see how far we can get.
What really bugged me is that I was watching this,
and I watched it with freeze frame, you know,
frame to frame to see what was going on on the computer screen.
And I saw an IRC session, an IRC session where Kevin was chatting with somebody known as JSC.
And I thought that was interesting, you know.
How exactly was this?
First, I thought it was Shimomura on IRC.
Then I looked at it, and I realized the local typing was just going by way too fast.
There was no way anybody could type something that quickly.
So what it must have been was some kind of a playback of a session that had been captured.
And then I looked a little closer, and I saw a list of subjects, subjects for mail.
All of them had to do with 2600 Magazine or Emanuel Goldstein or something related to me.
Then I suddenly realized, hey, that's my mailbox.
Now, it was written in the book that Kevin had been grepping the subjects of my mail
to see if anybody was writing about him.
In fact, I even knew about this at the time.
It didn't bug me at all.
Kevin was not really a threat in any sense.
But here's Shimomura going around the country
displaying the contents of the subjects of my mail
because he was able to capture Kevin when he did that.
And I'm saying to myself, you know, that doesn't seem right somehow.
This is my mail.
This is information about me.
And just because he captured somebody else doing that, does that give him the right to do this?
What do you guys think?
Well, you know, when it moved to the well,
they had already demanded that Andrew Gross, his hapless assistant,
sign a nondisclosure because what happens is
the well is sort of operating like a phone company and doing a fraud investigation.
And by law, they can't reveal that.
They couldn't reveal your email, for instance,
if they found your email, to the public or to the press.
So Gross signed the agreement.
And then this woman, Claudia Stroud, vice president of the well,
asked Shimomura and said, you know, you've got to sign this too.
And there's this bizarre sequence in that other book where Shimomura says,
yeah, maybe I'll sign it.
And then he has this sort of sub-dialogue,
where his internal dialogue,
is that he is thinking to this woman,
nice doggie, nice doggie.
And as a friend once told him,
you just say nice doggie until you get a big rock.
And it looks like he never signed this nondisclosure.
But he clearly violated, Andrew Gross was actually looking at the mail.
He clearly violated the nondisclosure.
He clearly was invading privacy of folks at the well.
I know I was one of them, and there were other people.
And you just had a case where a guy basically thinks he's so smart,
and he's so brilliant, that he doesn't have to follow the rules.
Yeah, an interesting footnote about Shimomura is,
Emanuel, I don't know if you recall,
he attended the third conference on computer's freedom and privacy in 1993.
This is the one that wasn't raided by the FBI.
Yeah, this was the second one to be in San Francisco.
Right.
If you recall the local indigenous hackers of the San Francisco area,
I recall having numerous conversations with them about cellular telephones.
And thinking back, I remember them mentioning someone by the name of Shimomura,
in the context of being a cellular phone hacker.
You think it was the same Shimomura?
The same Shimomura.
And it was not the Shimomura who worked at the San Diego Supercomputing Center,
who did jobs for the NSA.
It was just...
No, he helped hack, as I'm sure you know,
he helped hack the OKI code with Mark Lauder,
who's the former roommate of Kevin Poulsen,
who's about to finish his fifth year in the federal pen.
Yep.
He went by the name of VT when he did that, right?
Well, Markov, of course, wrote about all this.
In WIRED magazine, under pseudonyms, you're right,
the pseudonym he used for Shimomura was VT.
He quotes Shimomura, and if you're going to do something illegal,
make sure it's interesting.
That almost sounds like something Kevin would say.
You know?
And why is it when Shimomura says that it's OK, it's something cool,
something that winds up in WIRED, but...
Well, Markov disguised it with a pseudonym,
but people in the know knew that the other person was Lauder.
If you look at the descriptions,
he says that Shimomura has long hair and Birkenstocks,
and he works for, I think, a federally financed university.
So, Markov knew he was on the edge,
and he was certainly a hacker,
but those sort of things were left out of their version of events.
Now, let me ask you, John Lippman,
you were receiving phone calls from Kevin
throughout the whole period when he was on the run.
Did that bother you, knowing that he was a fugitive
and that you were talking to him?
Was there any kind of moral issue or conflict that was raised?
Well, you know, I feel, as a journalist,
really, journalists shouldn't be cops.
You know, we already have a lot of cops.
I think a journalist's job is to sort of explain things,
explore issues.
I do feel, though, that everything has to be...
there are lengths to which you can go.
And if I felt Kevin Mitnick was,
as Mr. Markov and Shimomura said,
if I felt Mitnick could have crippled the world,
you know, destroyed the world,
if I thought he was going to kill somebody,
I think I would have had a tough choice
about whether I would just, you know, keep talking to him.
But the more I found out,
it seemed that, you know, unfortunately,
he was a bit mixed up
and he had a lot of heat on him
and he wasn't doing much more than pushing back
when the FBI, you know, came after him.
Yeah, one of the things, in fact,
I got this out of your book, John Lippman,
when he was first on the run
or when he first started to go on the run,
one of the things he did was look up a phone tap
to see if his own phone line was being tapped
and he found out that it was.
I was asking myself a question.
Is there anything wrong with investigating someone
who you think is investigating you?
Well, one of the, you know, interesting things I found
is he told me this whole subplot
that's completely left out of Takedown,
which I found fascinating.
And the FBI hired this underground hacker
by the name of Agent Steele,
who's a guy who, you know, ties women up
and wraps them in cellophane
and they paid this guy cash,
they put him up in an apartment,
gave him a cellular phone,
and said, you know, go get Mitnick for us.
And I really couldn't discover that,
it looked to me that this guy was worse than Mitnick.
He actually did a $150,000 wire transfer
electronically from a bank.
He threatened to blow up the bank.
But this was the guy they chose to go after, Mitnick.
And, you know, when you started to look closer,
it seemed that Mitnick had some good reason
to try to find out who this fellow was
and why they were sending him after him.
And it didn't look like Mitnick himself
was doing much more than watching his pursuers,
the FBI and this Agent Steele.
Ironically, I myself was in contact with Agent Steele
during this time period when he was,
he apparently told me that he was living
in an apartment in L.A.
and that he didn't really go into too much detail.
He never mentioned that he was employed by the FBI.
Obviously, if I knew that, I wouldn't be talking to him.
He also didn't mention that he had anything to do
with Kevin Mitnick, although sometimes
we did talk about Kevin Poulsen,
which is a whole different story.
But one of the things that I thought was interesting
that he mentioned is that he had a closed-circuit television
that he could access to see who was coming into the building.
Well, Mitnick fooled him.
In California, caller ID's not out there yet.
But of course, Mitnick knew it's in the switch.
And when he paged Agent Steele to a payphone,
he turned on caller ID at the payphone
and he got the number.
He showed up all of a sudden at Mitnick's apartment
where the FBI puts up a lot of folks
and surprised the shit out of old Mitnick.
Next thing you know, he knew all the phone calls
that Agent Steele was making to the FBI.
That sounds like self-preservation,
trying to find out something like that.
I think it's sheer genius to put caller ID on a payphone
in a state that doesn't even have caller ID yet.
That's pure Mitnick.
Mitnick, I think it's interesting.
Mitnick is not the most advanced technical hacker,
but he's a very clever guy.
He understands social engineering.
He understands how to con people.
In some ways, he's more clever in a human sense
than Shimomura was in a technical sense.
I've talked to him many times, as you did, John,
while he was on the run.
It was sad because you know that he just wanted to be social,
to hang out with people, to live a normal life.
But of course, that could never be
because of the way that society was perceiving him.
He told me that World Hunger would be blamed on him
if it were possible.
Everything that went wrong on the net was Kevin Mitnick.
There was really no way for him to redeem himself
because of the hysteria.
Once that front-page article appeared July 4th of 1994,
that was really the end because he was threat number one.
I think you raise a great point, Emmanuel.
There were a lot of pranks that were on the net
by some sort of former associates and so-called friends of Mitnick.
I document some of this in my book.
A lot of them would just enjoy putting out these pranks.
Kevin was kind of naive, and he would get all the blame for them.
He obviously did do pranks himself.
He sometimes did have a mean side,
but he got the blame for everything.
That's certainly true.
Emmanuel, I hate to interrupt this, but I have to run.
Okay.
I have to also take a run.
I want to just say bye to Jeff and to Fiber and to you.
I want to thank both of you for being on the program.
More importantly, I want to thank you for writing these books
because it gives us something to really think about,
a lot of important issues that will follow us for many years ahead.
Do you have any plans to write other things in the future?
I'm working on my next book, which is on Poulsen, actually.
I'm about halfway done on that.
That's actually what I was working on before Mitnick,
so that's my next project, Kevin Poulsen.
Jeff, how about you?
Well, I'm busy doing my job.
I have a job at Rolling Stone, so I'm writing away there.
I don't know what my next book will be yet.
I assume John Markoff, even though he's not with us,
is going to be writing something in the future.
We'll see.
With all that money, you could even buy an island in the Caribbean.
That may be in the works. Who knows?
Well, gentlemen, thanks very much for being part of this.
Thank you.
All right, take care now.
Take care.
We've been hearing from John Lipman,
who has written the book The Fugitive Game,
and Jeff Goodell, who wrote The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.
Fiber, you have not yet seen this book, have you?
No, I haven't, actually.
It's a paperback, and it's the third of the three, I guess.
Actually, Takedown and Fugitive Game came out about the same time,
The Cyber Thief and The Samurai came out last.
So this is your chance, BAI listeners who are out there.
We've made it up to 2,500, which is good.
Actually, 2,600 would be better.
But what I'd really like to see is, within the next 15 minutes,
if we can make it up to and beyond 3,000.
And it doesn't take that much to do.
All you have to do is call us, 212-279-3400.
If you pledge 50 bucks, you'll get one of these books,
one of these books all about Kevin Mitnick
and the hunt that led to Kevin Mitnick.
No matter which book you read, you're going to get a sense of what happened.
But, you know, if you read all three,
I think you'll be pretty well educated on the whole subject.
And you can get all three with a pledge of $150.
Now, it doesn't take very many people calling in to bring us up over our goal.
And if you have a Visa or MasterCard or an American Express card,
you can make the whole ordeal a whole lot less painful
by spreading out payments, if that's what you want to do.
Either way, you'll be helping out the radio station.
And we're here to bring you topics like this week after week.
Every week, we're here talking about something controversial.
We brought you the Kevin Mitnick saga as it unfolded.
And we want to be able to continue to do things like that in the future.
The whole Bernie S. nightmare, which is taking place right now, live,
that's something that we will be continuing to bring you,
much as we don't want to have to think about things like that.
It's something that we can't ignore.
But the only way we can remain here on the radio doing this
is if our listeners support us.
We don't have commercials, you know.
You notice that? We're not breaking for commercials.
We're not going to corporate sponsors.
We could do that, you know. We could do that.
We're a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City.
And I'm sure there's lots of sponsors that would jump at the chance
to be heard by all of you.
But, you see, the problem is, if we do that,
all of a sudden they may have a problem with us, say,
or reading the President's Social Security number out over the airwaves.
Yeah, you thought I forgot about that, huh?
I need to hear from more people.
212-279-3400.
People who know the importance of non-commercial radio.
It's vital. It's vital to all of us.
We would not be able to talk about any of this
if we were not able to be here broadcasting on this radio station.
It takes money to keep this place going.
And you are our sponsors.
212-279-3400.
Bring us up above 2,500.
Let's move towards the 3,000 mark.
We have three quality books here.
We have Takedown, The Pursuit and Capture of Kevin Mitnick by Satomo Shimomura.
We have The Fugitive Game, Online with Kevin Mitnick.
And we have the paperback, The Cyber Thief and the Samurai.
Yes, that's what they all sound like.
They could be plopping down on your table as you sit down to read them
and spend the next few weeks actually going over all the little intricate details in these books.
It's quite a story.
There's lots of little sidebars and things.
There was a point in Seattle where Kevin was living under an assumed name
and he was almost caught by some cellular detectives, but they missed him.
They somehow let him escape.
You can find out all of this.
You can see what accounts differ in different books
and draw your own conclusions as to who is right and who is wrong.
And if you're a subscriber to 2,600, in addition to that,
you will be able to see all the other nuances from the perspective of hackers.
212-279-3400.
We have zero phone calls. Zero.
Is there something wrong with my eyes?
That line is not lit, is it?
No.
No. What's wrong? What am I doing wrong?
Well, I think that there's somebody out there.
I think that at least one person can call in.
How hard is it?
212-279-3400.
Or if you're in the city, you don't have to dial the 212, but you know that already.
Call us up. Pledge.
Whatever amount you prefer.
212-279-3400.
And we'll show you something.
The power of the individual.
We started off at zero several weeks ago
and we're almost at $800,000 for this entire pledge drive.
It doesn't take much effort on the part of people calling in.
It takes about two minutes.
Volunteers will get your name, address, how much you want to pledge.
And, you know, it's a pleasant thing.
I've done it myself. It's pleasant.
In fact, everybody in this room should do it, too.
Including all these TV crews.
It's a pleasant thing to do
because you're supporting a radio station that otherwise would not exist.
It's a very simple thing.
Every radio station you listen to in the city exists because of commercials.
You're listening. You're actually paying for that.
You pay for it through the products you buy
because there's a certain amount allocated for advertising.
So that's how those stations get their support.
They never have to demean themselves on the air like we do
and actually ask directly to the listener for a little help there.
And that's the difference, you see,
because what you hear on this radio station
is not what you hear on those other stations.
You don't hear controversial issues.
You hear, I don't know, what is it,
the mellow sounds of the 70s or something?
What's popular these days?
You hear classical music. You hear grunge rock.
You hear all kinds of things.
You know, music which is fine, but it's not controversial radio.
It's not the kind of thing that makes you think.
I always like to say that each BAI listener
is about ten listeners to K-Rock or, you know,
NEW or any of those other stations
because those people, and I'm not putting them down
because I listen to those stations myself,
but the people when they are listening to those stations are not listening.
You know, they're not listening to what is being said.
They have it on.
There's a difference between having the radio on and listening.
You see, if I am annoying you right now,
that means you're listening to me.
All right?
If you're getting upset because I'm asking you to call in,
that means you are listening to what I am saying,
and that means you're paying more attention to the radio now
than you would if you just had some tunes blaring.
So that is the importance of radio.
Whether or not it's what you agree with,
whether or not it's something that you want to hear
at that particular moment in time,
you need radio stations that will broadcast the issues.
212, 279, 3400.
We have plenty of issues to talk about,
plenty of controversial subject matter,
and all indications are that it's simply going to get more and more complex,
controversial, exciting,
and it will affect us on an individual basis as time goes by.
212, 279, 3400.
Okay, I'm being passed a note here.
All right.
You did a good job hiding it.
May I, what's that word?
I thought I'd just come in.
Oh, okay.
Thanks for Emmanuel Goldstein.
He does a remarkable show.
David Bernstein from the Personal Computer Show.
We used to be neighbors.
Yes, we used to be together on Wednesday night.
We hardly see each other anymore.
Much to our loss and chagrin,
and I thought I'd come in because I was in Talley
and the phone wasn't ringing the way it should.
Yeah, what's wrong with that phone there?
And we figure it's the phone,
but maybe you can help there and solve that phone problem.
That's right.
Emmanuel does something very special.
You know, I turn around and I'm back there,
and I actually work with some of this stuff,
and I just listen and I say,
he's saying what?
You mean, really?
Oh!
And I'm constantly being amazed and surprised,
partly because of the quality of the information,
partly because of the guts that he shows on the radio.
429.
Those are the first three numbers of the President's Social Security number.
That's guts, okay?
429, there you go.
I sit here saying 279-3400 to persuade you to call
and put some money on,
and that's a way of showing your respect for the person on the air.
That's right.
And the quality of the work.
That's right.
I can sit here and say his work is wonderful,
but unless some of you folks call and turn around
and pledge for some of this stuff,
it's not visible here at the station,
it's not getting the kind of support that, frankly, he's earned.
Right.
You know, you're sitting here and there's a whole room full of people.
I mean, the show is Emmanuel,
but there's also Fiber, and I look around,
and there are about eight people in this room
who know more than I do about computers,
and I'm considered a professional in this business.
Certainly in the stuff they work at,
they know a heck of a lot more than I do.
Don't forget our camera crews.
We've got a Canadian camera crew and a Japanese camera crew today.
Every week we have a different camera crew here.
I think that's pretty cool.
Now, if there's any way to get that T-shirt,
that's really the special premium.
Uh-huh.
That you could walk in with a 2600 T-shirt at any computer event,
and instantly there are two reactions.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I know about those reactions.
But I don't know.
I don't know if we want that on our conscience.
But I don't think that the T-shirts are on the premium list this marathon round.
But 2600 Magazine is.
2600 Magazine is.
Yes, that's true.
Also a slew of books and everything else there.
A slew of books.
A virtual slew.
Whatever that means.
But call us up.
212-279-3400.
Ask all volunteers who have been educated on the subject what is available.
What pledge will get you what?
212-279-3400.
We're in the closing minutes of the show,
so we'd really like to see a strong flourish.
There are seven people ready to go tally.
I'm going to go try to be useful, and I'm going to go try to help tally.
So please keep me busy.
David, I have one last thing to say to you.
9-2.
Those are the next two numbers in his Social Security number there.
Is 429 Arkansas?
It must be, because isn't that where he was born?
I don't know.
Social Security numbers represent where it is you were born.
Now, we talked about this several weeks ago.
And we were talking about privacy
and how our Social Security numbers are no longer something that is kept secret,
how there are no laws against giving out Social Security numbers.
You can collect them.
You can do whatever you want with them.
And that's something that affects people on an individual basis.
So this guy out in California is going around collecting Social Security numbers,
and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
We had him on the show a few weeks ago.
No one else is going to talk to somebody like that.
No one else is going to bring issues up like this.
It's fairly controversial, fairly controversial to be talking about issues like this,
to be kind of waving them in people's faces.
But it gets attention.
It gets people to think.
And that's what we're here for.
Hey, we've got, you know, he's got magic touch.
We have six phone calls on the line now.
212-279-3400.
Take advantage of the book offer.
And, you know, if a couple more people call,
I'll get to see those extra lines light up that I never saw light up before
because we brought in new phone lines for this marathon,
and it's a whole exciting thing.
212-279-3400.
Now, to continue with this topic I've brought up,
several weeks ago the person we were speaking to on the air
said that he had the president's Social Security number,
and he wasn't sure if he should give it out at that particular point in time.
And I said to him, well, okay, do this.
Send it to me, and I'll give it out.
And if I don't hear anything in the next three weeks,
I'll assume that it's not going to upset anybody,
that I'm not being warned not to do this.
So it's something that I think is perfectly legal and above the board,
although it may annoy some people,
particularly our friends in the Secret Service.
But, you know, why should one person get more privacy than another person
when our Social Security numbers are being bandied about all over the place?
We have no privacy anymore.
All of our information is out there on databases being traded left and right.
It seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I believe that's how the phrase goes.
So let me finish just by saying these three numbers, 9-9-4.
Now you'll notice that I said 4-2-9-9-2-9-9-4.
I'm missing a number.
I'm going to leave out the last number.
And I'll say that that is my gift to the cause of privacy,
that the president's Social Security number is now ten times more protected
than any of ours because we're not giving this one out.
We're just going to give out part of it.
And that's something that I think is, I don't know, it drives home a message.
No, I didn't write it down either.
I know what it is.
I know what it is, but I'm not going to say it
because I think the point has been made
that our numbers tell the entire story about us.
And that's got to stop.
We have to have privacy.
We have to be able to protect that which is ours.
And I think Kevin Mitnick, of all people, would agree with that.
He would agree that privacy is something that should be guarded,
something that should be, I guess, jealously guarded, I guess,
is the best way to phrase it because it's your life.
It's everything that you've done.
I'm not going to sit here and expose somebody 100 percent,
give out all their information because it's not fair.
It's not fair for me to do it.
It's not fair for it to be done to me.
But just to give you an idea, we can do it if we want to.
We have to change the system.
We have to change the way things work.
We have to start thinking a little bit more.
Joker?
You said that's something Kevin would say.
Is he banned from using all telecommunications devices?
Why have we never been able to hear from him or contact him?
I don't think he's allowed to talk to anybody
except relatives and lawyers, unfortunately.
Otherwise, we would have him on the show.
I'm trying to get around that.
I'm trying to figure out a way where we can talk to him in person.
That would be great if we can actually hear from his point of view.
I'm just happy that we're still able to talk to Bernie, yes.
And hopefully at his next sentencing hearing, which is March 5th,
hopefully a lot of you will come to that, first of all.
Hopefully a lot of press people will cover it and we'll get the story right.
Hopefully something will happen then
and he'll be released from this living hell.
This is somebody who hasn't even done anything.
So it's a most incredible story, one of many incredible stories.
Fiber, you lived through your own incredible story only a couple of years ago.
We follow that here on the radio.
I'd like to say there won't be any more stories like that,
but something in me tells me that there will be more.
And you're going to need a place, a forum, for all of this to be brought out.
We only have two minutes left, so please, if you're going to call us, call us now.
212-279-3400.
Show your support for a radio that isn't afraid to step on a few feet occasionally,
isn't afraid to get the different opinions out there.
They need to be said. They need to be heard.
And if they are not heard, then they are completely powerless.
Nobody knows.
Up until all of this started to happen, to friends of mine,
I wasn't aware of the injustices in the prison system.
I wasn't aware that people had no rights whatsoever.
There was a whole class of individuals that were just swept under the rug,
a lot of them innocent people, a lot of them people that have maybe committed crimes
of a very minor nature, but their entire lives are being destroyed.
And I got woken up to this, and a lot of us are being woken up to this.
So you see, one issue leads to another, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
That's why you need a radio station like WBAI.
Please, 212-279-3400.
We're approaching the 3,000 mark.
2875 is what we're at, and we have a few phone calls coming in.
Please add to those calls, 212-279-3400.
Next week, we're back on the air with a regular one-hour program from 8 to 9,
and we won't be asking for money then.
So if you want to support the radio station, this is your only chance.
Again, we have three books to offer, all on Kevin Mitnick,
The Fugitive Game, Takedown, and The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.
All three books come your way for a pledge of $150,
or you can get one of the books for a pledge of $50.
If you want to subscribe to 2600 Magazine,
you can get that along with one of the books for a pledge of $150.
Either way, though, you will be supporting the radio station.
That's the most important thing.
Don't call just for the books. Don't call just for the magazine.
Call because the radio station matters to you.
Call because Off The Hook matters to you.
You know, I heard our very first show, Fiber.
You know when that was? It was back in 1988.
In fact, it's on the Internet now.
If you want to download a 14-meg file,
you will hear our first show, which also was 2 hours and 30 minutes.
We have it on the FTP site, ftp.2600.com.
And you can hear our very first show, which aired on October 6, 1988.
It was the second attempt because we tried to air it over the summer of that year,
and that was the exact moment that there was a fire in the Empire State Building
and all the radio stations in New York City got knocked off the air.
So we rescheduled it for October, and it exists to this day.
You can still hear that particular radio program.
So everything we say here goes down in history in one way or another.
This radio show has touched a lot of people over the years.
We hope to continue for many years to come.
212-279-3400, show your support for this radio station.
Show your support for WBAI.
It's 10 o'clock. Is anybody else on the air?
Okay. Hopefully somebody's…
David, is David out there?
Who's on the air next?
Everyone's waiting for you to wrap up.
Oh, okay. Fine.
I just wanted to make sure because I could go on for another two hours talking like this,
but I don't really think that's in the public interest.
212-279-3400.
By the way, just to update people on fiber, maybe we could say a couple of words on this.
To emphasize the power of the Internet, the power of freedom of speech,
we've been talking about our whole PSI escapade over the past few weeks
where we had some kind of a disagreement with them about their services,
and we put up a webpage explaining all of this.
Well, they got pretty upset, didn't they?
Yeah. Disagreement. That's a good way of…
Well, I'm trying to be civil, you know.
I'm trying to make it so that I'm no more condescending than I have to be.
But yeah, they saw the webpage. They were quite upset by it.
In fact, part of the webpage is a voice file that plays back them in their own words saying something
which they deny saying.
And they sent us this letter. They sent it via fax.
Well, they also deny saying it in another state.
It's such a bizarre… We'll spend more time on this next week.
But it's such a bizarre thing.
First they say that we talked to them in another state, which we didn't talk to them in,
and that talking to them and recording it is illegal.
And then they say that we have to take that off right away or they're going to sue us.
I'm sorry? What was that?
Take the tally to 3,000.
You want me to take it to 3,000?
Okay, I've been instructed to take the tally to 3,000.
So I guess let's steer this big ship and head over to Warp 3.
212-279-3400, please help us get there.
So anyway, the story with that is they first of all weren't happy with us using a parody of their logo.
They said we were infringing on their copyright.
Fine, no problem. We took it off. We changed it to something else, something more appropriate.
It's called PSI Hell and it's on fire.
So they prefer that. Fine.
But as far as recording someone's phone call, according to New York state law and according to federal statutes,
it is perfectly legal to record a phone call as long as one of the parties knows about it.
I, being one of the parties, knew about that when I was doing that.
And they tried to twist it by saying that I had somehow wound up talking to somebody in Pennsylvania.
Now, in fact, when I called them, they answer in Virginia.
And to make sure of this, I called them again and I recorded it this time and I asked them,
do you ever pick up in Pennsylvania? And they said no.
So now that's on the website too.
So the thing is, you know, this is a situation where obviously a lot of people are getting the information
and it's upsetting the powers that be because it's saying something that they don't want to hear.
They don't want this to get out, but we're doing it anyway.
And the underdog, which is always us somehow, has a chance to reach people to get their side of the story out.
Ordinarily we would not have that chance.
So, yeah, the net is an extremely valuable tool.
Through a web page you're able to reach as many people as some of us on a radio station.
And that's a good thing to see the power of the mass medium getting into the hands of individual people.
This is the kind of thing we talk about on this radio show.
This is the kind of thing we want to focus on, how you too can have access to this.
That's really what it all boils down to.
Now, of course, there's a lot of people that feel uncomfortable about this.
They don't like individuals having this much power.
But, you know, I think individuals having power is one of the best things to ever happen.
And what we're moving towards now is something unprecedented in the history of civilization.
So, oh, over the 3,000 mark. How do you like that?
Thank you everybody who called in.
And, you know, you're welcome to keep calling if you want to.
But we're going to be heading out of here right now.
It's been fun. It's been tiring. And it's been educational.
Again, 212-279-3400.
A pledge of $50 will get you one of the three Kevin Mitnick books.
A pledge of $150 will get you all three.
And there's all kinds of variations thereof.
Call one of our volunteers, 212-279-3400.
They will explain it all to you.
So, this is Emanuel Goldstein.
I've been with you for the past two and a half hours.
And it's been a lot of fun.
We'll be back again next week, next Tuesday night at 8 o'clock for a one hour show.
And we'll be updating you on all the fun things going on in our little world.
So stay tuned and keep supporting the radio station.
212-279-3400. Good night.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
For Billy Bone, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
For Billy Bone.
Hi, hi, hi, everybody.
This is Angelique Kidjo.
Whenever I'm in New York, I listen to Berna White and Amy Goodman on Wake Up Call.
You might do the same. It's great.
Segregation, assimilation, separatism, nationalism.
What is the legacy of integration?
There is a great amount of integrity in what black people have created with the so-called crumbs of the white man's table.
Much in much the same way that we created soul food, which we took the crumbs and made it a delicacy for many people.
But ultimately, soul food is injurious to your to your arteries.
And we have to figure out a new diet.
And the diet that we crafted in the context of white supremacy was a diet that helped us get over the hump, as it were.
Well, of course, we're never going to become identical.
We are different not only by skin color, but within skin color, within gender, within any number of other categories.
I think we've got to get on with the commonalities while at the same time recognizing that we also have the right to be different in many respects.
But is that possible? Is that achievable?
Let's find out. Let's find out.
That's our only hope.
I agree. It's our only hope.
We have no choice but to figure out how to do it together.
Listen to the legacy of integration coming to this station from Pacifica Radio.
I know we've got a long, long way to go.
And where we'll end up, I don't know.
But we won't let nothing hold us back.
We're putting our show together.
We're polishing up our act now.
And if you've ever been held down before, I know you refuse to be held down anymore.
You're listening to 99.5 FM, WBAI, New York.
Support this community radio station by calling 212-279-3400.
Support in any and every way you can.
212-279-3400. Thank you.
We've got the groove.
Ain't no stopping us now.
We're on the move. I know. I know.
Ain't no stopping us now.
We've got the groove. We've got it.