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Sutomo was asked about the tapes, who I'm sure the two authors are aware of, the tapes,

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the taunting answering machine messages.

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That's right.

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Right.

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Sutomo seems to think that Mitnick was working on some sort of conspiracy along with another

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gentleman.

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It was really funny because he was asked about it and he said, you know, point blank he said,

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well, they said, do you have any information on who was on those tapes and, you know, anything

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that would lead you further into investigation?

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And he said, well, I'm going to duck that question.

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And then Markoff pipes in and goes, no, we don't have anything, you know, there's some

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trace information, but obviously it's to a payphone and we're never going to find out.

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It seems like anything that attacks Sutomo in any way and maligns his credibility or

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his elitist status as a hacker or as a security expert in any manner, obviously these phone

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calls and that, you know, he doesn't know who they are, is obviously a slap in the face

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to him.

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But anything that attacks him in any way, he just doesn't want to deal with and pleads

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a bit.

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Well, you see, the thing is when you put yourself in the public eye and when you, you know,

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take part in a story like this, you have to accept some criticism, you have to accept

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some questions.

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So that's certainly not something that we're just going to let sit.

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We're going to keep on with our questions until we get some answers.

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Well, and I think the effect of both my book and Just Book are out now and a lot of serious

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mainstream journalists and a lot of serious publications, you know, the New Yorker, CNN,

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yesterday, as I said, these questions are now being raised.

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If he doesn't come to his defense, you know, his reputation just won't be there anymore

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because they are really serious questions.

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And he really was coddled, you know, by Markov in the New York Times.

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And now some of the real facts are coming out and he doesn't look quite so good.

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Yeah, there's a review in the Sunday Times that, you know, in Markov's own papers, it

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brings up a lot of this stuff also.

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Interesting.

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I'd like to see that, actually.

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212-279-3400.

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We have no calls on the line.

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I know there are people out there that care about this because you're there week after

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week calling us with all kinds of questions.

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212-279-3400.

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Pledge whatever you can to support WBAI.

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If you want a copy of one of the books and you're a new supporter of the radio station,

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for a $50 pledge, you will get one of the books, as well as becoming a member of WBAI.

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For $150, you will get all three books.

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212-279-3400.

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This offer is going to expire pretty soon, within the next half hour, so we need to hear

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from you.

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We're up to 2,000 mark, which, considering we've been on for two and a half hours, or

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we're going to be on for two and a half hours, is not really as good as we hoped it would

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be.

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People are telling me something like 10,000, but I don't think that's, you know, I don't

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know.

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That would take a miracle.

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But it's happened before.

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212-279-3400.

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Show your support for this radio station.

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Show your support for what we are discussing here.

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I think whoever is on the tapes, back to that subject, should definitely get a hold of Shimomura

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and get a percentage of the profits for this because he keeps referring to it constantly.

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It's on the webpage, which I'm not going to promote if you guys want to go find it.

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You know what really bothers me, though?

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I was at that presentation at the bookstore in New York, and, you know, one of the things

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I asked Shimomura, how do you remember what you ate a year ago?

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Because if you read the book, he's got like a list of everything he eats, every place

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he goes.

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I mean...

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Hey, Emmanuel, a lot of reviewers are pretty tired of that.

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It's, I mean, I really got a good sense of what he's all about.

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But he wouldn't answer that.

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In fact, he wouldn't answer anything.

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He was...

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Actually, I believe his answer was, well, they must have been very memorable meals.

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No, you know what his answer was?

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I asked him, how can you remember this?

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You know, that took place a year ago.

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And he said, well, it wasn't a year ago.

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It was 10 months.

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And I was like, oh, well, you got me there.

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So I just slinked away back into the corner.

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But I'll tell you what really bugged me was when he was showing a demonstration on Dateline NBC.

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Did you folks on the phone catch this?

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No, I avoided it.

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Okay, well, there was...

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You know, it was a wonderful publicity piece.

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It was.

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That's what Dateline NBC was for.

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It was amazing because you had Tom Brokaw sort of echoing a story that had been shot,

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was about to be shot to pieces by the New Yorker and serious journalist.

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And it really showed that, you know, there's a certain part of it, as we said,

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this is the difference between radio and TV and print and TV that, you know, he didn't care.

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He knew the story wasn't true.

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He knew that Jeff and my book were out, which had lots of facts to shoot holes in this.

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But, you know, TV is TV.

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Well, what really bothered me about this,

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and again, I'd like to see some phone calls coming in as I'm relating this,

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222-279-3400.

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Every phone call makes a big difference.

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Let's see how far we can get.

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What really bugged me is that I was watching this,

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and I watched it with freeze frame, you know,

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frame to frame to see what was going on on the computer screen.

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And I saw an IRC session, an IRC session where Kevin was chatting with somebody known as JSC.

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And I thought that was interesting, you know.

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How exactly was this?

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First, I thought it was Shimomura on IRC.

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Then I looked at it, and I realized the local typing was just going by way too fast.

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There was no way anybody could type something that quickly.

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So what it must have been was some kind of a playback of a session that had been captured.

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And then I looked a little closer, and I saw a list of subjects, subjects for mail.

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All of them had to do with 2600 Magazine or Emanuel Goldstein or something related to me.

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Then I suddenly realized, hey, that's my mailbox.

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Now, it was written in the book that Kevin had been grepping the subjects of my mail

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to see if anybody was writing about him.

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In fact, I even knew about this at the time.

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It didn't bug me at all.

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Kevin was not really a threat in any sense.

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But here's Shimomura going around the country

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displaying the contents of the subjects of my mail

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because he was able to capture Kevin when he did that.

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And I'm saying to myself, you know, that doesn't seem right somehow.

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This is my mail.

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This is information about me.

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And just because he captured somebody else doing that, does that give him the right to do this?

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What do you guys think?

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Well, you know, when it moved to the well,

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they had already demanded that Andrew Gross, his hapless assistant,

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sign a nondisclosure because what happens is

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the well is sort of operating like a phone company and doing a fraud investigation.

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And by law, they can't reveal that.

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They couldn't reveal your email, for instance,

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if they found your email, to the public or to the press.

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So Gross signed the agreement.

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And then this woman, Claudia Stroud, vice president of the well,

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asked Shimomura and said, you know, you've got to sign this too.

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And there's this bizarre sequence in that other book where Shimomura says,

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yeah, maybe I'll sign it.

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And then he has this sort of sub-dialogue,

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where his internal dialogue,

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is that he is thinking to this woman,

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nice doggie, nice doggie.

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And as a friend once told him,

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you just say nice doggie until you get a big rock.

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And it looks like he never signed this nondisclosure.

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But he clearly violated, Andrew Gross was actually looking at the mail.

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He clearly violated the nondisclosure.

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He clearly was invading privacy of folks at the well.

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I know I was one of them, and there were other people.

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And you just had a case where a guy basically thinks he's so smart,

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and he's so brilliant, that he doesn't have to follow the rules.

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Yeah, an interesting footnote about Shimomura is,

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Emanuel, I don't know if you recall,

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he attended the third conference on computer's freedom and privacy in 1993.

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This is the one that wasn't raided by the FBI.

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Yeah, this was the second one to be in San Francisco.

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Right.

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If you recall the local indigenous hackers of the San Francisco area,

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I recall having numerous conversations with them about cellular telephones.

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And thinking back, I remember them mentioning someone by the name of Shimomura,

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in the context of being a cellular phone hacker.

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You think it was the same Shimomura?

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The same Shimomura.

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And it was not the Shimomura who worked at the San Diego Supercomputing Center,

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who did jobs for the NSA.

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It was just...

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No, he helped hack, as I'm sure you know,

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he helped hack the OKI code with Mark Lauder,

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who's the former roommate of Kevin Poulsen,

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who's about to finish his fifth year in the federal pen.

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Yep.

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He went by the name of VT when he did that, right?

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Well, Markov, of course, wrote about all this.

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In WIRED magazine, under pseudonyms, you're right,

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the pseudonym he used for Shimomura was VT.

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He quotes Shimomura, and if you're going to do something illegal,

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make sure it's interesting.

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That almost sounds like something Kevin would say.

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You know?

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And why is it when Shimomura says that it's OK, it's something cool,

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something that winds up in WIRED, but...

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Well, Markov disguised it with a pseudonym,

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but people in the know knew that the other person was Lauder.

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If you look at the descriptions,

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he says that Shimomura has long hair and Birkenstocks,

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and he works for, I think, a federally financed university.

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So, Markov knew he was on the edge,

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and he was certainly a hacker,

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but those sort of things were left out of their version of events.

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Now, let me ask you, John Lippman,

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you were receiving phone calls from Kevin

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throughout the whole period when he was on the run.

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Did that bother you, knowing that he was a fugitive

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and that you were talking to him?

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Was there any kind of moral issue or conflict that was raised?

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Well, you know, I feel, as a journalist,

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really, journalists shouldn't be cops.

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You know, we already have a lot of cops.

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I think a journalist's job is to sort of explain things,

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explore issues.

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I do feel, though, that everything has to be...

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there are lengths to which you can go.

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And if I felt Kevin Mitnick was,

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as Mr. Markov and Shimomura said,

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if I felt Mitnick could have crippled the world,

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you know, destroyed the world,

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if I thought he was going to kill somebody,

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I think I would have had a tough choice

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about whether I would just, you know, keep talking to him.

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But the more I found out,

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it seemed that, you know, unfortunately,

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he was a bit mixed up

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and he had a lot of heat on him

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and he wasn't doing much more than pushing back

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when the FBI, you know, came after him.

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Yeah, one of the things, in fact,

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I got this out of your book, John Lippman,

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when he was first on the run

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or when he first started to go on the run,

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one of the things he did was look up a phone tap

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to see if his own phone line was being tapped

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and he found out that it was.

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I was asking myself a question.

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Is there anything wrong with investigating someone

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who you think is investigating you?

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Well, one of the, you know, interesting things I found

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is he told me this whole subplot

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that's completely left out of Takedown,

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which I found fascinating.

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And the FBI hired this underground hacker

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by the name of Agent Steele,

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who's a guy who, you know, ties women up

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and wraps them in cellophane

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and they paid this guy cash,

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they put him up in an apartment,

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gave him a cellular phone,

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and said, you know, go get Mitnick for us.

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And I really couldn't discover that,

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it looked to me that this guy was worse than Mitnick.

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He actually did a $150,000 wire transfer

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electronically from a bank.

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He threatened to blow up the bank.

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But this was the guy they chose to go after, Mitnick.

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And, you know, when you started to look closer,

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it seemed that Mitnick had some good reason

243
00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:24,820
to try to find out who this fellow was

244
00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:27,820
and why they were sending him after him.

245
00:12:27,820 --> 00:12:30,820
And it didn't look like Mitnick himself

246
00:12:31,220 --> 00:12:35,220
was doing much more than watching his pursuers,

247
00:12:35,220 --> 00:12:38,220
the FBI and this Agent Steele.

248
00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:44,220
Ironically, I myself was in contact with Agent Steele

249
00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:46,220
during this time period when he was,

250
00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:49,220
he apparently told me that he was living

251
00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:52,220
in an apartment in L.A.

252
00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:56,220
and that he didn't really go into too much detail.

253
00:12:56,220 --> 00:13:00,220
He never mentioned that he was employed by the FBI.

254
00:13:00,220 --> 00:13:03,220
Obviously, if I knew that, I wouldn't be talking to him.

255
00:13:03,220 --> 00:13:06,220
He also didn't mention that he had anything to do

256
00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:09,220
with Kevin Mitnick, although sometimes

257
00:13:09,220 --> 00:13:11,220
we did talk about Kevin Poulsen,

258
00:13:11,220 --> 00:13:13,220
which is a whole different story.

259
00:13:13,220 --> 00:13:16,220
But one of the things that I thought was interesting

260
00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:22,220
that he mentioned is that he had a closed-circuit television

261
00:13:22,220 --> 00:13:26,220
that he could access to see who was coming into the building.

262
00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:28,220
Well, Mitnick fooled him.

263
00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:32,220
In California, caller ID's not out there yet.

264
00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:35,220
But of course, Mitnick knew it's in the switch.

265
00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:39,220
And when he paged Agent Steele to a payphone,

266
00:13:39,220 --> 00:13:44,220
he turned on caller ID at the payphone

267
00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:46,220
and he got the number.

268
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:49,220
He showed up all of a sudden at Mitnick's apartment

269
00:13:49,220 --> 00:13:52,220
where the FBI puts up a lot of folks

270
00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:55,220
and surprised the shit out of old Mitnick.

271
00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:59,220
Next thing you know, he knew all the phone calls

272
00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:04,220
that Agent Steele was making to the FBI.

273
00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:07,220
That sounds like self-preservation,

274
00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,220
trying to find out something like that.

275
00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:12,220
I think it's sheer genius to put caller ID on a payphone

276
00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:15,220
in a state that doesn't even have caller ID yet.

277
00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:17,220
That's pure Mitnick.

278
00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:19,220
Mitnick, I think it's interesting.

279
00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:23,220
Mitnick is not the most advanced technical hacker,

280
00:14:24,220 --> 00:14:27,220
but he's a very clever guy.

281
00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:30,220
He understands social engineering.

282
00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:33,220
He understands how to con people.

283
00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:36,220
In some ways, he's more clever in a human sense

284
00:14:36,220 --> 00:14:40,220
than Shimomura was in a technical sense.

285
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:42,220
I've talked to him many times, as you did, John,

286
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:45,220
while he was on the run.

287
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,220
It was sad because you know that he just wanted to be social,

288
00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:51,220
to hang out with people, to live a normal life.

289
00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:53,220
But of course, that could never be

290
00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:57,220
because of the way that society was perceiving him.

291
00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:00,220
He told me that World Hunger would be blamed on him

292
00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:01,220
if it were possible.

293
00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:04,220
Everything that went wrong on the net was Kevin Mitnick.

294
00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:07,220
There was really no way for him to redeem himself

295
00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:08,220
because of the hysteria.

296
00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:13,220
Once that front-page article appeared July 4th of 1994,

297
00:15:13,220 --> 00:15:17,220
that was really the end because he was threat number one.

298
00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:19,220
I think you raise a great point, Emmanuel.

299
00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:21,220
There were a lot of pranks that were on the net

300
00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:26,220
by some sort of former associates and so-called friends of Mitnick.

301
00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:29,220
I document some of this in my book.

302
00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:34,220
A lot of them would just enjoy putting out these pranks.

303
00:15:34,220 --> 00:15:38,220
Kevin was kind of naive, and he would get all the blame for them.

304
00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:41,220
He obviously did do pranks himself.

305
00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:44,220
He sometimes did have a mean side,

306
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,220
but he got the blame for everything.

307
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:48,220
That's certainly true.

308
00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:50,220
Emmanuel, I hate to interrupt this, but I have to run.

309
00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:51,220
Okay.

310
00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:54,220
I have to also take a run.

311
00:15:54,220 --> 00:15:59,220
I want to just say bye to Jeff and to Fiber and to you.

312
00:15:59,220 --> 00:16:02,220
I want to thank both of you for being on the program.

313
00:16:02,220 --> 00:16:04,220
More importantly, I want to thank you for writing these books

314
00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:07,220
because it gives us something to really think about,

315
00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:11,220
a lot of important issues that will follow us for many years ahead.

316
00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:15,220
Do you have any plans to write other things in the future?

317
00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:20,220
I'm working on my next book, which is on Poulsen, actually.

318
00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:23,220
I'm about halfway done on that.

319
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:25,220
That's actually what I was working on before Mitnick,

320
00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:28,220
so that's my next project, Kevin Poulsen.

321
00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:29,220
Jeff, how about you?

322
00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:31,220
Well, I'm busy doing my job.

323
00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:35,220
I have a job at Rolling Stone, so I'm writing away there.

324
00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:37,220
I don't know what my next book will be yet.

325
00:16:37,220 --> 00:16:39,220
I assume John Markoff, even though he's not with us,

326
00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:41,220
is going to be writing something in the future.

327
00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:42,220
We'll see.

328
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:44,220
With all that money, you could even buy an island in the Caribbean.

329
00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:47,220
That may be in the works. Who knows?

330
00:16:47,220 --> 00:16:49,220
Well, gentlemen, thanks very much for being part of this.

331
00:16:49,220 --> 00:16:50,220
Thank you.

332
00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:51,220
All right, take care now.

333
00:16:51,220 --> 00:16:52,220
Take care.

334
00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:54,220
We've been hearing from John Lipman,

335
00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:57,220
who has written the book The Fugitive Game,

336
00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:00,220
and Jeff Goodell, who wrote The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.

337
00:17:00,220 --> 00:17:02,220
Fiber, you have not yet seen this book, have you?

338
00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:03,220
No, I haven't, actually.

339
00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:08,220
It's a paperback, and it's the third of the three, I guess.

340
00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:11,220
Actually, Takedown and Fugitive Game came out about the same time,

341
00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:14,220
The Cyber Thief and The Samurai came out last.

342
00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:17,220
So this is your chance, BAI listeners who are out there.

343
00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:20,220
We've made it up to 2,500, which is good.

344
00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:22,220
Actually, 2,600 would be better.

345
00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:26,220
But what I'd really like to see is, within the next 15 minutes,

346
00:17:26,220 --> 00:17:28,220
if we can make it up to and beyond 3,000.

347
00:17:28,220 --> 00:17:30,220
And it doesn't take that much to do.

348
00:17:30,220 --> 00:17:33,220
All you have to do is call us, 212-279-3400.

349
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:36,220
If you pledge 50 bucks, you'll get one of these books,

350
00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:38,220
one of these books all about Kevin Mitnick

351
00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:41,220
and the hunt that led to Kevin Mitnick.

352
00:17:41,220 --> 00:17:44,220
No matter which book you read, you're going to get a sense of what happened.

353
00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:46,220
But, you know, if you read all three,

354
00:17:46,220 --> 00:17:50,220
I think you'll be pretty well educated on the whole subject.

355
00:17:50,220 --> 00:17:52,220
And you can get all three with a pledge of $150.

356
00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:56,220
Now, it doesn't take very many people calling in to bring us up over our goal.

357
00:17:56,220 --> 00:17:59,220
And if you have a Visa or MasterCard or an American Express card,

358
00:17:59,220 --> 00:18:02,220
you can make the whole ordeal a whole lot less painful

359
00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:05,220
by spreading out payments, if that's what you want to do.

360
00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:08,220
Either way, you'll be helping out the radio station.

361
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:12,220
And we're here to bring you topics like this week after week.

362
00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:15,220
Every week, we're here talking about something controversial.

363
00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:18,220
We brought you the Kevin Mitnick saga as it unfolded.

364
00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:21,220
And we want to be able to continue to do things like that in the future.

365
00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:25,220
The whole Bernie S. nightmare, which is taking place right now, live,

366
00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:28,220
that's something that we will be continuing to bring you,

367
00:18:28,220 --> 00:18:31,220
much as we don't want to have to think about things like that.

368
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,220
It's something that we can't ignore.

369
00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:36,220
But the only way we can remain here on the radio doing this

370
00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:38,220
is if our listeners support us.

371
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:40,220
We don't have commercials, you know.

372
00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:42,220
You notice that? We're not breaking for commercials.

373
00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:45,220
We're not going to corporate sponsors.

374
00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:47,220
We could do that, you know. We could do that.

375
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:50,220
We're a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City.

376
00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:53,220
And I'm sure there's lots of sponsors that would jump at the chance

377
00:18:53,220 --> 00:18:55,220
to be heard by all of you.

378
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:57,220
But, you see, the problem is, if we do that,

379
00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:00,220
all of a sudden they may have a problem with us, say,

380
00:19:01,220 --> 00:19:05,220
or reading the President's Social Security number out over the airwaves.

381
00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:08,220
Yeah, you thought I forgot about that, huh?

382
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:10,220
I need to hear from more people.

383
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:12,220
212-279-3400.

384
00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:15,220
People who know the importance of non-commercial radio.

385
00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:18,220
It's vital. It's vital to all of us.

386
00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:21,220
We would not be able to talk about any of this

387
00:19:21,220 --> 00:19:26,220
if we were not able to be here broadcasting on this radio station.

388
00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:28,220
It takes money to keep this place going.

389
00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:30,220
And you are our sponsors.

390
00:19:30,220 --> 00:19:32,220
212-279-3400.

391
00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:34,220
Bring us up above 2,500.

392
00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:36,220
Let's move towards the 3,000 mark.

393
00:19:36,220 --> 00:19:39,220
We have three quality books here.

394
00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:44,220
We have Takedown, The Pursuit and Capture of Kevin Mitnick by Satomo Shimomura.

395
00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:47,220
We have The Fugitive Game, Online with Kevin Mitnick.

396
00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:51,220
And we have the paperback, The Cyber Thief and the Samurai.

397
00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:53,220
Yes, that's what they all sound like.

398
00:19:53,220 --> 00:19:56,220
They could be plopping down on your table as you sit down to read them

399
00:19:56,220 --> 00:20:01,220
and spend the next few weeks actually going over all the little intricate details in these books.

400
00:20:01,220 --> 00:20:03,220
It's quite a story.

401
00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:06,220
There's lots of little sidebars and things.

402
00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:10,220
There was a point in Seattle where Kevin was living under an assumed name

403
00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:15,220
and he was almost caught by some cellular detectives, but they missed him.

404
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:17,220
They somehow let him escape.

405
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:19,220
You can find out all of this.

406
00:20:19,220 --> 00:20:22,220
You can see what accounts differ in different books

407
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:26,220
and draw your own conclusions as to who is right and who is wrong.

408
00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:29,220
And if you're a subscriber to 2,600, in addition to that,

409
00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:34,220
you will be able to see all the other nuances from the perspective of hackers.

410
00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:37,220
212-279-3400.

411
00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:40,220
We have zero phone calls. Zero.

412
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:42,220
Is there something wrong with my eyes?

413
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:43,220
That line is not lit, is it?

414
00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:44,220
No.

415
00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:46,220
No. What's wrong? What am I doing wrong?

416
00:20:46,220 --> 00:20:49,220
Well, I think that there's somebody out there.

417
00:20:49,220 --> 00:20:52,220
I think that at least one person can call in.

418
00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:54,220
How hard is it?

419
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:56,220
212-279-3400.

420
00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:59,220
Or if you're in the city, you don't have to dial the 212, but you know that already.

421
00:20:59,220 --> 00:21:01,220
Call us up. Pledge.

422
00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:03,220
Whatever amount you prefer.

423
00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:05,220
212-279-3400.

424
00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:07,220
And we'll show you something.

425
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:08,220
The power of the individual.

426
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:10,220
We started off at zero several weeks ago

427
00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:14,220
and we're almost at $800,000 for this entire pledge drive.

428
00:21:15,220 --> 00:21:19,220
It doesn't take much effort on the part of people calling in.

429
00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,220
It takes about two minutes.

430
00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:24,220
Volunteers will get your name, address, how much you want to pledge.

431
00:21:24,220 --> 00:21:26,220
And, you know, it's a pleasant thing.

432
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:28,220
I've done it myself. It's pleasant.

433
00:21:28,220 --> 00:21:30,220
In fact, everybody in this room should do it, too.

434
00:21:30,220 --> 00:21:32,220
Including all these TV crews.

435
00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:35,220
It's a pleasant thing to do

436
00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:39,220
because you're supporting a radio station that otherwise would not exist.

437
00:21:39,220 --> 00:21:41,220
It's a very simple thing.

438
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:45,220
Every radio station you listen to in the city exists because of commercials.

439
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:48,220
You're listening. You're actually paying for that.

440
00:21:48,220 --> 00:21:50,220
You pay for it through the products you buy

441
00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:53,220
because there's a certain amount allocated for advertising.

442
00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:56,220
So that's how those stations get their support.

443
00:21:56,220 --> 00:21:59,220
They never have to demean themselves on the air like we do

444
00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:03,220
and actually ask directly to the listener for a little help there.

445
00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:06,220
And that's the difference, you see,

446
00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:09,220
because what you hear on this radio station

447
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:11,220
is not what you hear on those other stations.

448
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:13,220
You don't hear controversial issues.

449
00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:16,220
You hear, I don't know, what is it,

450
00:22:16,220 --> 00:22:19,220
the mellow sounds of the 70s or something?

451
00:22:19,220 --> 00:22:21,220
What's popular these days?

452
00:22:21,220 --> 00:22:24,220
You hear classical music. You hear grunge rock.

453
00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:26,220
You hear all kinds of things.

454
00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:30,220
You know, music which is fine, but it's not controversial radio.

455
00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:33,220
It's not the kind of thing that makes you think.

456
00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:36,220
I always like to say that each BAI listener

457
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:39,220
is about ten listeners to K-Rock or, you know,

458
00:22:39,220 --> 00:22:41,220
NEW or any of those other stations

459
00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:43,220
because those people, and I'm not putting them down

460
00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:45,220
because I listen to those stations myself,

461
00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:48,220
but the people when they are listening to those stations are not listening.

462
00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:50,220
You know, they're not listening to what is being said.

463
00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:51,220
They have it on.

464
00:22:51,220 --> 00:22:55,220
There's a difference between having the radio on and listening.

465
00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:57,220
You see, if I am annoying you right now,

466
00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:59,220
that means you're listening to me.

467
00:22:59,220 --> 00:23:00,220
All right?

468
00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:03,220
If you're getting upset because I'm asking you to call in,

469
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:05,220
that means you are listening to what I am saying,

470
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:08,220
and that means you're paying more attention to the radio now

471
00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:11,220
than you would if you just had some tunes blaring.

472
00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:14,220
So that is the importance of radio.

473
00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:16,220
Whether or not it's what you agree with,

474
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:18,220
whether or not it's something that you want to hear

475
00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:20,220
at that particular moment in time,

476
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:23,220
you need radio stations that will broadcast the issues.

477
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:26,220
212, 279, 3400.

478
00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:28,220
We have plenty of issues to talk about,

479
00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:30,220
plenty of controversial subject matter,

480
00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:36,220
and all indications are that it's simply going to get more and more complex,

481
00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:38,220
controversial, exciting,

482
00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:43,220
and it will affect us on an individual basis as time goes by.

483
00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:46,220
212, 279, 3400.

484
00:23:46,220 --> 00:23:49,220
Okay, I'm being passed a note here.

485
00:23:49,220 --> 00:23:51,220
All right.

486
00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:54,220
You did a good job hiding it.

487
00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:57,220
May I, what's that word?

488
00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:59,220
I thought I'd just come in.

489
00:23:59,220 --> 00:24:00,220
Oh, okay.

490
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:02,220
Thanks for Emmanuel Goldstein.

491
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:03,220
He does a remarkable show.

492
00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:05,220
David Bernstein from the Personal Computer Show.

493
00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:06,220
We used to be neighbors.

494
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:08,220
Yes, we used to be together on Wednesday night.

495
00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:10,220
We hardly see each other anymore.

496
00:24:10,220 --> 00:24:12,220
Much to our loss and chagrin,

497
00:24:12,220 --> 00:24:14,220
and I thought I'd come in because I was in Talley

498
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:16,220
and the phone wasn't ringing the way it should.

499
00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:18,220
Yeah, what's wrong with that phone there?

500
00:24:18,220 --> 00:24:20,220
And we figure it's the phone,

501
00:24:20,220 --> 00:24:22,220
but maybe you can help there and solve that phone problem.

502
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:23,220
That's right.

503
00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,220
Emmanuel does something very special.

504
00:24:25,220 --> 00:24:27,220
You know, I turn around and I'm back there,

505
00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:29,220
and I actually work with some of this stuff,

506
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:30,220
and I just listen and I say,

507
00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:31,220
he's saying what?

508
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:33,220
You mean, really?

509
00:24:33,220 --> 00:24:34,220
Oh!

510
00:24:34,220 --> 00:24:37,220
And I'm constantly being amazed and surprised,

511
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:40,220
partly because of the quality of the information,

512
00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:43,220
partly because of the guts that he shows on the radio.

513
00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:45,220
429.

514
00:24:45,220 --> 00:24:49,220
Those are the first three numbers of the President's Social Security number.

515
00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:51,220
That's guts, okay?

516
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:53,220
429, there you go.

517
00:24:53,220 --> 00:24:57,220
I sit here saying 279-3400 to persuade you to call

518
00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:58,220
and put some money on,

519
00:24:58,220 --> 00:25:01,220
and that's a way of showing your respect for the person on the air.

520
00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:02,220
That's right.

521
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:03,220
And the quality of the work.

522
00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:04,220
That's right.

523
00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:06,220
I can sit here and say his work is wonderful,

524
00:25:06,220 --> 00:25:08,220
but unless some of you folks call and turn around

525
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:10,220
and pledge for some of this stuff,

526
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:12,220
it's not visible here at the station,

527
00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:15,220
it's not getting the kind of support that, frankly, he's earned.

528
00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:16,220
Right.

529
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:18,220
You know, you're sitting here and there's a whole room full of people.

530
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:19,220
I mean, the show is Emmanuel,

531
00:25:19,220 --> 00:25:21,220
but there's also Fiber, and I look around,

532
00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:23,220
and there are about eight people in this room

533
00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:25,220
who know more than I do about computers,

534
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:27,220
and I'm considered a professional in this business.

535
00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:28,220
Certainly in the stuff they work at,

536
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:30,220
they know a heck of a lot more than I do.

537
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:31,220
Don't forget our camera crews.

538
00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:34,220
We've got a Canadian camera crew and a Japanese camera crew today.

539
00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:36,220
Every week we have a different camera crew here.

540
00:25:36,220 --> 00:25:39,220
I think that's pretty cool.

541
00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:41,220
Now, if there's any way to get that T-shirt,

542
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:43,220
that's really the special premium.

543
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:44,220
Uh-huh.

544
00:25:44,220 --> 00:25:47,220
That you could walk in with a 2600 T-shirt at any computer event,

545
00:25:47,220 --> 00:25:49,220
and instantly there are two reactions.

546
00:25:49,220 --> 00:25:50,220
Oh, yeah.

547
00:25:50,220 --> 00:25:53,220
Yeah, I know about those reactions.

548
00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:54,220
But I don't know.

549
00:25:54,220 --> 00:25:56,220
I don't know if we want that on our conscience.

550
00:25:56,220 --> 00:26:00,220
But I don't think that the T-shirts are on the premium list this marathon round.

551
00:26:00,220 --> 00:26:02,220
But 2600 Magazine is.

552
00:26:02,220 --> 00:26:03,220
2600 Magazine is.

553
00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:04,220
Yes, that's true.

554
00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,220
Also a slew of books and everything else there.

555
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:07,220
A slew of books.

556
00:26:07,220 --> 00:26:08,220
A virtual slew.

557
00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:09,220
Whatever that means.

558
00:26:09,220 --> 00:26:10,220
But call us up.

559
00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:12,220
212-279-3400.

560
00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:16,220
Ask all volunteers who have been educated on the subject what is available.

561
00:26:16,220 --> 00:26:17,220
What pledge will get you what?

562
00:26:17,220 --> 00:26:18,220
212-279-3400.

563
00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:20,220
We're in the closing minutes of the show,

564
00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:22,220
so we'd really like to see a strong flourish.

565
00:26:22,220 --> 00:26:24,220
There are seven people ready to go tally.

566
00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:27,220
I'm going to go try to be useful, and I'm going to go try to help tally.

567
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:29,220
So please keep me busy.

568
00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:31,220
David, I have one last thing to say to you.

569
00:26:31,220 --> 00:26:32,220
9-2.

570
00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:36,220
Those are the next two numbers in his Social Security number there.

571
00:26:36,220 --> 00:26:38,220
Is 429 Arkansas?

572
00:26:38,220 --> 00:26:40,220
It must be, because isn't that where he was born?

573
00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:41,220
I don't know.

574
00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:44,220
Social Security numbers represent where it is you were born.

575
00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:46,220
Now, we talked about this several weeks ago.

576
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:47,220
And we were talking about privacy

577
00:26:47,220 --> 00:26:51,220
and how our Social Security numbers are no longer something that is kept secret,

578
00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:54,220
how there are no laws against giving out Social Security numbers.

579
00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:55,220
You can collect them.

580
00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:57,220
You can do whatever you want with them.

581
00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:59,220
And that's something that affects people on an individual basis.

582
00:26:59,220 --> 00:27:04,220
So this guy out in California is going around collecting Social Security numbers,

583
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:05,220
and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

584
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:07,220
We had him on the show a few weeks ago.

585
00:27:07,220 --> 00:27:09,220
No one else is going to talk to somebody like that.

586
00:27:09,220 --> 00:27:11,220
No one else is going to bring issues up like this.

587
00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:15,220
It's fairly controversial, fairly controversial to be talking about issues like this,

588
00:27:15,220 --> 00:27:20,220
to be kind of waving them in people's faces.

589
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:22,220
But it gets attention.

590
00:27:22,220 --> 00:27:24,220
It gets people to think.

591
00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:25,220
And that's what we're here for.

592
00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:27,220
Hey, we've got, you know, he's got magic touch.

593
00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:29,220
We have six phone calls on the line now.

594
00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:32,220
212-279-3400.

595
00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:34,220
Take advantage of the book offer.

596
00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:36,220
And, you know, if a couple more people call,

597
00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:38,220
I'll get to see those extra lines light up that I never saw light up before

598
00:27:38,220 --> 00:27:40,220
because we brought in new phone lines for this marathon,

599
00:27:40,220 --> 00:27:42,220
and it's a whole exciting thing.

600
00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:46,220
212-279-3400.

601
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:50,220
Now, to continue with this topic I've brought up,

602
00:27:50,220 --> 00:27:53,220
several weeks ago the person we were speaking to on the air

603
00:27:53,220 --> 00:27:56,220
said that he had the president's Social Security number,

604
00:27:56,220 --> 00:28:01,220
and he wasn't sure if he should give it out at that particular point in time.

605
00:28:01,220 --> 00:28:03,220
And I said to him, well, okay, do this.

606
00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:05,220
Send it to me, and I'll give it out.

607
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:07,220
And if I don't hear anything in the next three weeks,

608
00:28:07,220 --> 00:28:10,220
I'll assume that it's not going to upset anybody,

609
00:28:10,220 --> 00:28:12,220
that I'm not being warned not to do this.

610
00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:17,220
So it's something that I think is perfectly legal and above the board,

611
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:19,220
although it may annoy some people,

612
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:21,220
particularly our friends in the Secret Service.

613
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:25,220
But, you know, why should one person get more privacy than another person

614
00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:28,220
when our Social Security numbers are being bandied about all over the place?

615
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:30,220
We have no privacy anymore.

616
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:35,220
All of our information is out there on databases being traded left and right.

617
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:39,220
It seems to me that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

618
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:41,220
I believe that's how the phrase goes.

619
00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:46,220
So let me finish just by saying these three numbers, 9-9-4.

620
00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:50,220
Now you'll notice that I said 4-2-9-9-2-9-9-4.

621
00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:53,220
I'm missing a number.

622
00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:56,220
I'm going to leave out the last number.

623
00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:02,220
And I'll say that that is my gift to the cause of privacy,

624
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:05,220
that the president's Social Security number is now ten times more protected

625
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:08,220
than any of ours because we're not giving this one out.

626
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:10,220
We're just going to give out part of it.

627
00:29:10,220 --> 00:29:16,220
And that's something that I think is, I don't know, it drives home a message.

628
00:29:16,220 --> 00:29:18,220
No, I didn't write it down either.

629
00:29:18,220 --> 00:29:19,220
I know what it is.

630
00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:21,220
I know what it is, but I'm not going to say it

631
00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:24,220
because I think the point has been made

632
00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:28,220
that our numbers tell the entire story about us.

633
00:29:28,220 --> 00:29:30,220
And that's got to stop.

634
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:31,220
We have to have privacy.

635
00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:36,220
We have to be able to protect that which is ours.

636
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:39,220
And I think Kevin Mitnick, of all people, would agree with that.

637
00:29:39,220 --> 00:29:42,220
He would agree that privacy is something that should be guarded,

638
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:49,220
something that should be, I guess, jealously guarded, I guess,

639
00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:53,220
is the best way to phrase it because it's your life.

640
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:54,220
It's everything that you've done.

641
00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:59,220
I'm not going to sit here and expose somebody 100 percent,

642
00:29:59,220 --> 00:30:02,220
give out all their information because it's not fair.

643
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:03,220
It's not fair for me to do it.

644
00:30:03,220 --> 00:30:05,220
It's not fair for it to be done to me.

645
00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:10,220
But just to give you an idea, we can do it if we want to.

646
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:11,220
We have to change the system.

647
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:13,220
We have to change the way things work.

648
00:30:13,220 --> 00:30:15,220
We have to start thinking a little bit more.

649
00:30:15,220 --> 00:30:16,220
Joker?

650
00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:18,220
You said that's something Kevin would say.

651
00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:21,220
Is he banned from using all telecommunications devices?

652
00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:23,220
Why have we never been able to hear from him or contact him?

653
00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:25,220
I don't think he's allowed to talk to anybody

654
00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:27,220
except relatives and lawyers, unfortunately.

655
00:30:27,220 --> 00:30:30,220
Otherwise, we would have him on the show.

656
00:30:30,220 --> 00:30:31,220
I'm trying to get around that.

657
00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:34,220
I'm trying to figure out a way where we can talk to him in person.

658
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:37,220
That would be great if we can actually hear from his point of view.

659
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:40,220
I'm just happy that we're still able to talk to Bernie, yes.

660
00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:44,220
And hopefully at his next sentencing hearing, which is March 5th,

661
00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:46,220
hopefully a lot of you will come to that, first of all.

662
00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:52,220
Hopefully a lot of press people will cover it and we'll get the story right.

663
00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:54,220
Hopefully something will happen then

664
00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:57,220
and he'll be released from this living hell.

665
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:59,220
This is somebody who hasn't even done anything.

666
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:03,220
So it's a most incredible story, one of many incredible stories.

667
00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:06,220
Fiber, you lived through your own incredible story only a couple of years ago.

668
00:31:06,220 --> 00:31:09,220
We follow that here on the radio.

669
00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:11,220
I'd like to say there won't be any more stories like that,

670
00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:15,220
but something in me tells me that there will be more.

671
00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:20,220
And you're going to need a place, a forum, for all of this to be brought out.

672
00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:23,220
We only have two minutes left, so please, if you're going to call us, call us now.

673
00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:26,220
212-279-3400.

674
00:31:26,220 --> 00:31:28,220
212-279-3400.

675
00:31:28,220 --> 00:31:33,220
Show your support for a radio that isn't afraid to step on a few feet occasionally,

676
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:37,220
isn't afraid to get the different opinions out there.

677
00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:40,220
They need to be said. They need to be heard.

678
00:31:40,220 --> 00:31:43,220
And if they are not heard, then they are completely powerless.

679
00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:45,220
Nobody knows.

680
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:47,220
Up until all of this started to happen, to friends of mine,

681
00:31:47,220 --> 00:31:50,220
I wasn't aware of the injustices in the prison system.

682
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:53,220
I wasn't aware that people had no rights whatsoever.

683
00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:57,220
There was a whole class of individuals that were just swept under the rug,

684
00:31:57,220 --> 00:32:00,220
a lot of them innocent people, a lot of them people that have maybe committed crimes

685
00:32:00,220 --> 00:32:05,220
of a very minor nature, but their entire lives are being destroyed.

686
00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:09,220
And I got woken up to this, and a lot of us are being woken up to this.

687
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:14,220
So you see, one issue leads to another, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

688
00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:16,220
That's why you need a radio station like WBAI.

689
00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:18,220
Please, 212-279-3400.

690
00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:20,220
We're approaching the 3,000 mark.

691
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:23,220
2875 is what we're at, and we have a few phone calls coming in.

692
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:27,220
Please add to those calls, 212-279-3400.

693
00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:31,220
Next week, we're back on the air with a regular one-hour program from 8 to 9,

694
00:32:31,220 --> 00:32:33,220
and we won't be asking for money then.

695
00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:38,220
So if you want to support the radio station, this is your only chance.

696
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,220
Again, we have three books to offer, all on Kevin Mitnick,

697
00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:44,220
The Fugitive Game, Takedown, and The Cyber Thief and The Samurai.

698
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:47,220
All three books come your way for a pledge of $150,

699
00:32:47,220 --> 00:32:50,220
or you can get one of the books for a pledge of $50.

700
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:53,220
If you want to subscribe to 2600 Magazine,

701
00:32:53,220 --> 00:32:56,220
you can get that along with one of the books for a pledge of $150.

702
00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:58,220
Either way, though, you will be supporting the radio station.

703
00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:00,220
That's the most important thing.

704
00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:02,220
Don't call just for the books. Don't call just for the magazine.

705
00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:05,220
Call because the radio station matters to you.

706
00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:07,220
Call because Off The Hook matters to you.

707
00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:10,220
You know, I heard our very first show, Fiber.

708
00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:13,220
You know when that was? It was back in 1988.

709
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:16,220
In fact, it's on the Internet now.

710
00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:18,220
If you want to download a 14-meg file,

711
00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:21,220
you will hear our first show, which also was 2 hours and 30 minutes.

712
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:25,220
We have it on the FTP site, ftp.2600.com.

713
00:33:25,220 --> 00:33:29,220
And you can hear our very first show, which aired on October 6, 1988.

714
00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:33,220
It was the second attempt because we tried to air it over the summer of that year,

715
00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:36,220
and that was the exact moment that there was a fire in the Empire State Building

716
00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:39,220
and all the radio stations in New York City got knocked off the air.

717
00:33:39,220 --> 00:33:44,220
So we rescheduled it for October, and it exists to this day.

718
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:46,220
You can still hear that particular radio program.

719
00:33:46,220 --> 00:33:50,220
So everything we say here goes down in history in one way or another.

720
00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:53,220
This radio show has touched a lot of people over the years.

721
00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:55,220
We hope to continue for many years to come.

722
00:33:55,220 --> 00:34:00,220
212-279-3400, show your support for this radio station.

723
00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:03,220
Show your support for WBAI.

724
00:34:03,220 --> 00:34:06,220
It's 10 o'clock. Is anybody else on the air?

725
00:34:06,220 --> 00:34:09,220
Okay. Hopefully somebody's…

726
00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:11,220
David, is David out there?

727
00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:13,220
Who's on the air next?

728
00:34:13,220 --> 00:34:14,220
Everyone's waiting for you to wrap up.

729
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:15,220
Oh, okay. Fine.

730
00:34:15,220 --> 00:34:18,220
I just wanted to make sure because I could go on for another two hours talking like this,

731
00:34:18,220 --> 00:34:21,220
but I don't really think that's in the public interest.

732
00:34:21,220 --> 00:34:24,220
212-279-3400.

733
00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:28,220
By the way, just to update people on fiber, maybe we could say a couple of words on this.

734
00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:35,220
To emphasize the power of the Internet, the power of freedom of speech,

735
00:34:35,220 --> 00:34:40,220
we've been talking about our whole PSI escapade over the past few weeks

736
00:34:40,220 --> 00:34:45,220
where we had some kind of a disagreement with them about their services,

737
00:34:45,220 --> 00:34:48,220
and we put up a webpage explaining all of this.

738
00:34:48,220 --> 00:34:50,220
Well, they got pretty upset, didn't they?

739
00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:52,220
Yeah. Disagreement. That's a good way of…

740
00:34:52,220 --> 00:34:54,220
Well, I'm trying to be civil, you know.

741
00:34:54,220 --> 00:34:58,220
I'm trying to make it so that I'm no more condescending than I have to be.

742
00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:00,220
But yeah, they saw the webpage. They were quite upset by it.

743
00:35:00,220 --> 00:35:06,220
In fact, part of the webpage is a voice file that plays back them in their own words saying something

744
00:35:06,220 --> 00:35:08,220
which they deny saying.

745
00:35:08,220 --> 00:35:11,220
And they sent us this letter. They sent it via fax.

746
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:14,220
Well, they also deny saying it in another state.

747
00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:17,220
It's such a bizarre… We'll spend more time on this next week.

748
00:35:17,220 --> 00:35:19,220
But it's such a bizarre thing.

749
00:35:19,220 --> 00:35:23,220
First they say that we talked to them in another state, which we didn't talk to them in,

750
00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:26,220
and that talking to them and recording it is illegal.

751
00:35:26,220 --> 00:35:31,220
And then they say that we have to take that off right away or they're going to sue us.

752
00:35:31,220 --> 00:35:34,220
I'm sorry? What was that?

753
00:35:34,220 --> 00:35:35,220
Take the tally to 3,000.

754
00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:36,220
You want me to take it to 3,000?

755
00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:38,220
Okay, I've been instructed to take the tally to 3,000.

756
00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:44,220
So I guess let's steer this big ship and head over to Warp 3.

757
00:35:44,220 --> 00:35:48,220
212-279-3400, please help us get there.

758
00:35:48,220 --> 00:35:55,220
So anyway, the story with that is they first of all weren't happy with us using a parody of their logo.

759
00:35:55,220 --> 00:35:57,220
They said we were infringing on their copyright.

760
00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:01,220
Fine, no problem. We took it off. We changed it to something else, something more appropriate.

761
00:36:01,220 --> 00:36:03,220
It's called PSI Hell and it's on fire.

762
00:36:04,220 --> 00:36:06,220
So they prefer that. Fine.

763
00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:13,220
But as far as recording someone's phone call, according to New York state law and according to federal statutes,

764
00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:18,220
it is perfectly legal to record a phone call as long as one of the parties knows about it.

765
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,220
I, being one of the parties, knew about that when I was doing that.

766
00:36:21,220 --> 00:36:26,220
And they tried to twist it by saying that I had somehow wound up talking to somebody in Pennsylvania.

767
00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:29,220
Now, in fact, when I called them, they answer in Virginia.

768
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:33,220
And to make sure of this, I called them again and I recorded it this time and I asked them,

769
00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:35,220
do you ever pick up in Pennsylvania? And they said no.

770
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:37,220
So now that's on the website too.

771
00:36:37,220 --> 00:36:44,220
So the thing is, you know, this is a situation where obviously a lot of people are getting the information

772
00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:49,220
and it's upsetting the powers that be because it's saying something that they don't want to hear.

773
00:36:49,220 --> 00:36:52,220
They don't want this to get out, but we're doing it anyway.

774
00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:59,220
And the underdog, which is always us somehow, has a chance to reach people to get their side of the story out.

775
00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:01,220
Ordinarily we would not have that chance.

776
00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:04,220
So, yeah, the net is an extremely valuable tool.

777
00:37:04,220 --> 00:37:09,220
Through a web page you're able to reach as many people as some of us on a radio station.

778
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:15,220
And that's a good thing to see the power of the mass medium getting into the hands of individual people.

779
00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:18,220
This is the kind of thing we talk about on this radio show.

780
00:37:18,220 --> 00:37:22,220
This is the kind of thing we want to focus on, how you too can have access to this.

781
00:37:22,220 --> 00:37:25,220
That's really what it all boils down to.

782
00:37:25,220 --> 00:37:28,220
Now, of course, there's a lot of people that feel uncomfortable about this.

783
00:37:28,220 --> 00:37:31,220
They don't like individuals having this much power.

784
00:37:31,220 --> 00:37:36,220
But, you know, I think individuals having power is one of the best things to ever happen.

785
00:37:36,220 --> 00:37:42,220
And what we're moving towards now is something unprecedented in the history of civilization.

786
00:37:42,220 --> 00:37:46,220
So, oh, over the 3,000 mark. How do you like that?

787
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:49,220
Thank you everybody who called in.

788
00:37:49,220 --> 00:37:52,220
And, you know, you're welcome to keep calling if you want to.

789
00:37:52,220 --> 00:37:55,220
But we're going to be heading out of here right now.

790
00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:59,220
It's been fun. It's been tiring. And it's been educational.

791
00:37:59,220 --> 00:38:02,220
Again, 212-279-3400.

792
00:38:02,220 --> 00:38:05,220
A pledge of $50 will get you one of the three Kevin Mitnick books.

793
00:38:05,220 --> 00:38:07,220
A pledge of $150 will get you all three.

794
00:38:07,220 --> 00:38:09,220
And there's all kinds of variations thereof.

795
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:12,220
Call one of our volunteers, 212-279-3400.

796
00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:14,220
They will explain it all to you.

797
00:38:14,220 --> 00:38:16,220
So, this is Emanuel Goldstein.

798
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:19,220
I've been with you for the past two and a half hours.

799
00:38:19,220 --> 00:38:21,220
And it's been a lot of fun.

800
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:26,220
We'll be back again next week, next Tuesday night at 8 o'clock for a one hour show.

801
00:38:26,220 --> 00:38:31,220
And we'll be updating you on all the fun things going on in our little world.

802
00:38:31,220 --> 00:38:33,220
So stay tuned and keep supporting the radio station.

803
00:38:33,220 --> 00:38:36,220
212-279-3400. Good night.

804
00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:40,220
I cut myself while shaving.

805
00:38:40,220 --> 00:38:42,220
Now I can't make a cough.

806
00:38:42,220 --> 00:38:45,220
It couldn't get much worse.

807
00:38:45,220 --> 00:38:47,220
But if they could, they would.

808
00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:50,220
For Billy Bone, for the best, expect the worst.

809
00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:53,220
I hope that's understood.

810
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:54,220
For Billy Bone.

811
00:39:06,220 --> 00:39:07,220
For Billy Bone.

812
00:39:36,220 --> 00:39:37,220
For Billy Bone.

813
00:39:37,220 --> 00:39:38,220
For Billy Bone.

814
00:39:38,220 --> 00:40:07,220
Hi, hi, hi, everybody.

815
00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:09,220
This is Angelique Kidjo.

816
00:40:09,220 --> 00:40:14,220
Whenever I'm in New York, I listen to Berna White and Amy Goodman on Wake Up Call.

817
00:40:14,220 --> 00:40:36,220
You might do the same. It's great.

818
00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:41,220
Segregation, assimilation, separatism, nationalism.

819
00:40:41,220 --> 00:40:43,220
What is the legacy of integration?

820
00:40:43,220 --> 00:40:50,220
There is a great amount of integrity in what black people have created with the so-called crumbs of the white man's table.

821
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:57,220
Much in much the same way that we created soul food, which we took the crumbs and made it a delicacy for many people.

822
00:40:57,220 --> 00:41:02,220
But ultimately, soul food is injurious to your to your arteries.

823
00:41:02,220 --> 00:41:05,220
And we have to figure out a new diet.

824
00:41:05,220 --> 00:41:12,220
And the diet that we crafted in the context of white supremacy was a diet that helped us get over the hump, as it were.

825
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:15,220
Well, of course, we're never going to become identical.

826
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:23,220
We are different not only by skin color, but within skin color, within gender, within any number of other categories.

827
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:32,220
I think we've got to get on with the commonalities while at the same time recognizing that we also have the right to be different in many respects.

828
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:34,220
But is that possible? Is that achievable?

829
00:41:34,220 --> 00:41:36,220
Let's find out. Let's find out.

830
00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:38,220
That's our only hope.

831
00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:40,220
I agree. It's our only hope.

832
00:41:40,220 --> 00:41:44,220
We have no choice but to figure out how to do it together.

833
00:41:44,220 --> 00:41:49,220
Listen to the legacy of integration coming to this station from Pacifica Radio.

834
00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:09,220
I know we've got a long, long way to go.

835
00:42:09,220 --> 00:42:13,220
And where we'll end up, I don't know.

836
00:42:13,220 --> 00:42:17,220
But we won't let nothing hold us back.

837
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:19,220
We're putting our show together.

838
00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:22,220
We're polishing up our act now.

839
00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:30,220
And if you've ever been held down before, I know you refuse to be held down anymore.

840
00:42:31,220 --> 00:42:39,220
You're listening to 99.5 FM, WBAI, New York.

841
00:42:39,220 --> 00:42:45,220
Support this community radio station by calling 212-279-3400.

842
00:42:45,220 --> 00:42:48,220
Support in any and every way you can.

843
00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:53,220
212-279-3400. Thank you.

844
00:43:00,220 --> 00:43:03,220
We've got the groove.

845
00:43:05,220 --> 00:43:08,220
Ain't no stopping us now.

846
00:43:08,220 --> 00:43:13,220
We're on the move. I know. I know.

847
00:43:13,220 --> 00:43:16,220
Ain't no stopping us now.

848
00:43:16,220 --> 00:43:20,220
We've got the groove. We've got it.