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On four different Mondays throughout April and May, the New York Foundation for the Arts

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presents Surviving in the Arts, Points of Entry, a series of conversations with directors

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of some of the most significant presenting organizations.

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Time and locations for these events will vary.

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For more information call 212-366-6900, that's 212-366-6900, and one more time, 212-366-6900.

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This has been a public service announcement of WBAI on behalf of the New York Foundation

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for the Arts.

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And this is radio station WBAI in New York, where it's just about 10 o'clock and there's

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a hub of activity in our tally room.

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We're going to have fun tonight.

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This is Off the Hook.

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The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall, I cut myself while shaving,

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now I can't make a call, it couldn't get much worse, but if they could they would, for Billy

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Boy, we almost didn't make it that time.

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One thing you don't realize when you're listening to the radio, you don't realize what's going

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on behind the scenes.

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The franticness, the running around rooms, pushing people out of the way, and papers

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and all kinds of logic collisions.

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Well, that's what brings you a quality radio program, hopefully.

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And tonight, tonight is going to be a two-way radio program because we're going to hopefully

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get something back from our listeners.

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Besides the feedback that we always get, we're going to get some support as well so

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that we can keep on going in the tradition of WBAI, the fine tradition of what's probably

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the most interesting radio station in New York, if not the country.

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It's five minutes after 10 o'clock.

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My name is Manuel Goldstein.

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This program is Off the Hook, and we're here every week talking about some of the more

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interesting aspects of high technology.

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It's one thing to talk about the new machines and the new software and all the kinds of

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things that are going on, but it's another to look at the human element of it, and by

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that I mean how human beings are affected by the actions of machines.

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And you may say to yourself, well, machines don't have actions.

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Human beings are the ones in control of the machines.

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Ah, yes, that makes sense.

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But how quickly do we forget that human beings are the ones in control in the end?

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It's really very simple.

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We never have to become slaves to technology, not unless we want to.

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And there are so many of us out there that want to.

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So many of us that follow without thinking.

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We can sell the kids for food, well, the change is news, spring is here again.

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Yes, spring is here again, in the immortal words of Kurt Cobain and Nirvana.

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And spring being here again means it's time for the WBAI Spring Marathon.

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And this program is not going to be any exception because we're here to ask for your support

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so that we can keep going and keep bringing you more things like what we're about to bring

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you tonight.

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And I guess the best way to start is with a tale of woe.

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And you know how tales of woe always seem to involve the phone company.

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Oh, this is quite a story.

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And we're going to couple this with an international link so you can see the relation between phone

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companies here and phone companies there.

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It's really quite something.

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Well, this all begins.

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This all begins with the former New York telephone, which has now become 9X.

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That's right, 9X, the New York, New England, and the unknown.

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Well, I think the unknown has taken over because nobody there really seems to know what's going

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on.

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Nobody seems to know what the future holds.

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Nobody seems to know how to operate the present, or anything else for that matter.

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We've had run-ins with the phone company before.

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I think everybody that has a phone line installed has run-ins of some sort.

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And after a while, you sort of become used to them.

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You sort of almost expect for things not to work.

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But I'll tell you, what has happened over the past several weeks has been phenomenal.

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Phenomenal in competence, in surprises, technical foul-ups, and blunders that you just could

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not believe.

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All right.

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To set the background a little bit on this particular story, we needed to get some new

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phone lines installed over at 2600 Magazine.

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We also needed to change some things around.

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Switch some lines around, disconnect some lines, put in new lines, that kind of thing.

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What people do during their lives.

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Well, we expected it not to quite work out all that well.

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They managed to install a line, but then three days later, if you call that line, it was

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disconnected.

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Yeah, it was a recording three days after a new line was put in saying the new line

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was disconnected.

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Now, for some reason, there is a computer out there, and nobody at 9x can explain this.

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Everybody has tried.

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And I do have to give credit, there are people at 9x that are trying, there are people at

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9x that care, but it doesn't matter because there are too many people who don't care,

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who don't understand, and there's too many computers that have been programmed in such

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a poor manner that they always win in the end, and whatever it is they say goes.

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Case in point, this poor phone number that we got that keeps getting disconnected every

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three days or so, it just keeps happening.

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It's pointless to keep a phone number like that because you can get the assurances of

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the supervisor of supervisors who will say, it's not going to be disconnected this time,

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we're going to stop this, and then three days later, of course, it's disconnected.

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Nobody knows why.

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It just happens.

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Then, after this cursed phone line was installed, we received another phone line, except this

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phone line was what we call the mystery line because nobody knows where it went.

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It didn't belong to us, it was not our phone number, it was somebody else's phone number,

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and the way we were able to try this was we were able to dial the magical number of 958,

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which is something that hackers discovered many years ago.

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In fact, let's see if we can get a line here.

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Okay, if we dial out on a phone exchange, and we dial 958, we should get our phone number

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back.

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Let's see if it works here.

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It may not work here.

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2-7-9-3-4-0-9.

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Okay, now you have one of our secret numbers, too, because that's not the one we give out

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over the air, but that's what you get if you dial 958.

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It works in New Jersey now, too, which is a totally different phone company, although

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they have a similar mentality.

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That's how we found out our phone number.

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The phone company now tells you to dial that so that you can figure it out yourself because

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they don't want to be bothered, and most of the time they don't even know.

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So in this particular case, we were getting a phone number that was not like anything

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they told us that we would have.

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It was somebody else's phone number, and we had no luck finding out who it belonged to

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because we would call the number and nobody would answer.

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We had no idea where it was going.

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I mean, do we make phone calls on this thing?

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Do we run up their bill?

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We might get arrested if we do that, but the phone is going into exactly where we want

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the phone to go into.

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It's just not our phone line.

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Where is our phone line?

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Maybe it's going into somebody else's place.

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Maybe they're making calls off of our dial tone.

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I mean, you take your life into your hands when you get a phone installed these days.

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Okay, now we're getting to the good part.

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They had to make a house call.

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They had to make a house call to install some new lines.

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This was the big trip.

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They were going to install a bunch of new lines.

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They were going to install a service called IntelliDial, which I'm going to tell you all

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about.

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IntelliDial is this rather nifty service that 9x offers that allows you, if you have several

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phone lines, to have some services in your residence.

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You don't have to be a business to have these services.

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You can transfer calls.

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You can pick up other lines from other lines.

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You can put calls on hold.

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Yeah, big deal.

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I know.

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You can do it on any phone, but for 9x, it's a big deal.

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The best part of it is TouchTone service is included, so you don't have to pay an extra

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fee for TouchTone service.

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That's kind of neat in and of itself.

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The problem came when they had to make a house call to install some of these lines.

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We waited and we waited.

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We had to pick a date two weeks before they could actually come out.

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It was a joyous occasion when the day finally arrived.

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People took off from work.

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People took off from school.

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Everybody sort of gathered around in a festive atmosphere.

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Today was the day that the phone company was coming, except the day went by, breakfast

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time turned into lunch time, and the sun began to go down, and the phone company was not

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there.

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It was gnashing of teeth and cursors being thrown around.

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We called the phone company and we said, wherefore art thou, phone company?

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Where they go?

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What's wrong with you people?

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They said, well, we couldn't find it.

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We couldn't find your address.

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They couldn't find our address at the phone company.

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They put phones in every place in the world, and they couldn't find our address.

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Do you think they would call us and ask us where we were?

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No, they couldn't do that.

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That made too much sense, so they just didn't show up.

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They just didn't show up at all.

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The phone company.

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You got to figure, you know, what entity has lines running all over the place?

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They must know where those lines go.

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They must know where their wires are.

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So you give them an address and they can't find it?

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Maybe they could just run a voltage check down the wire and follow it or something.

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I don't know.

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There's no way when you have a wire in somebody's house that you can find the house.

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So the upshot is they weren't able to come by, and they made an appointment for another

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week.

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That's right.

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We had to wait another week for them to come by.

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They couldn't just come by the next day because there's all kinds of bureaucratic paperwork

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that has to be processed.

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So another week went by, and the joyous day once again arrived.

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And this time, this time midway through the day, somebody, in fact, did show up.

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And they said, you know, there aren't enough lines coming in here.

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We're going to have to call the splicers.

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Now wouldn't that have been something to have figured out beforehand that they didn't have

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enough lines in the first place to place the order?

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So now they have to wait another week to get the splicers to come in, and then they're

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going to send these other people back who hopefully will remember how to find the house

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in the first place.

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And I should point out that it took three vans to tell us this.

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Yeah, three vans came by to tell us that they couldn't finish the job.

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That's only part of the story.

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I mean, this can go on all night long.

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I mean, this is only one small story in a big city.

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Everybody has a story.

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I've heard them all.

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I've heard them all.

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There's 9x voicemail.

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Okay, I want to play for you an example of 9x voicemail.

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I have access to the slide, don't I?

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Okay.

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They're playing with the phones here, of all things.

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Now, you see, this is it.

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We don't have a choice.

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We do not have a choice.

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I'm going to demonstrate something to you right now.

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Right now, we're going to prove something, okay?

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There is competition.

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Judge Green allowed for competition in the long-distance phone market, but he did not

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allow for competition in the local phone market.

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So, what does that mean?

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Well, that means that if you're not happy with one phone company, you can go to another.

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And when you have competition like that, it tends to mean something.

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Now, let's use this as an example, okay?

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We spend a lot of time criticizing long-distance companies and local companies.

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We just do.

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That's what we're here for.

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But there are certain advantages to the long-distance companies.

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Let's get our phone.

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Let's get a dial tone, rather, okay?

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And by the way, that's 9x's dial tone.

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We don't have a choice.

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If we want to make a phone call, we have to use 9x.

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So we're going to use 9x and call AT&T.

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Let's see what happens.

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Thank you for calling AT&T.

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You have reached the Customer Account Servicing Center.

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If you are calling with questions about local charges, would like to make payment arrangements,

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or are inquiring about your balance due, please contact your local telephone company.

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That number is located on either page 1 or 2 of your local telephone company's portion

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of the bill.

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If you are calling with questions regarding your long-distance service or billing, please

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hold for further assistance.

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Well, the point here is, it seems like somebody's home.

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You have to sit through recordings sometimes.

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Or rings.

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That never seems to stop.

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Thank you for calling AT&T.

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All of our representatives are currently serving other AT&T valued customers.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Okay, well, the fact is, you'll get that recording if you call at 4 in the morning.

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There's valued customers calling at all hours.

239
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:13,880
But, in the end, maybe 20 minutes, maybe 45 minutes, you will talk to somebody.

240
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:14,880
Now...

241
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,880
What if we have a question about our 9X bill?

242
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,880
Thank you for calling 9X.

243
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,880
If you are calling from a touch-tone phone, press 1 now.

244
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,920
If calling from a rotary phone, please wait for a 9X service representative.

245
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,920
Okay, let's press 1.

246
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,920
To help us direct your call, listen to the instructions and respond by pressing the buttons

247
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:42,920
on your telephone.

248
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,920
If you are calling about your bill, press 1.

249
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,920
If you are calling about your long-distance calls, press 2.

250
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,920
If you are calling about a repair problem, press 3.

251
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,920
I'm calling about my bill.

252
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:03,960
To find out how much you owe or to report a payment or make payment arrangements, press 1.

253
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,960
To ask questions about your long-distance calls, press 2.

254
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,960
To speak with the 9X billing department, press 3.

255
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:13,960
Yeah, I want to speak to a person.

256
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:14,960
Calling for...

257
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:15,960
Please stay on the line.

258
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,960
The 9X billing department will help you.

259
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,960
This I gotta see.

260
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,960
The 9X Residence Service Center is closed.

261
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,960
We are open Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.

262
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,960
Saturday, 8.30 a.m. to 4 p.m.

263
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:38,960
except holidays.

264
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,960
If you are experiencing difficulty with your dial tone...

265
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:41,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

266
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,960
If I was experiencing difficulty with my dial tone, I couldn't call.

267
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,960
Well, not only do they close down at night, but you have to go through two minutes of

268
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,960
touch-tones to find out they're closed.

269
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:53,960
And you know why?

270
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,960
Because there's no competition.

271
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,000
You're stuck with them.

272
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,000
That's why.

273
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:07,000
So, to continue with the story, we were forced to get something known as 9X voicemail.

274
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,000
Now, I want to demonstrate 9X voicemail, too, as long as we're demonstrating things here

275
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000
tonight.

276
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,000
And you can see what a marvelous service it is.

277
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,000
We were forced to get it because with IntelliDial, with this new service they offer

278
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,000
called IntelliDial, there's really no such thing as a busy signal.

279
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,040
There's really no such thing as a busy signal.

280
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,040
You have to make a decision on all your phone lines.

281
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,040
If it's busy, where does it go?

282
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,040
You know, well, I like it to go to a busy signal because that's what busy means.

283
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,040
It means that you're on the phone and you don't wish to be disturbed.

284
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,040
But no, no, no, no, you can't do that.

285
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,040
You have to have it go to another line that accepts calls.

286
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:45,040
And so I said, well, can I have it go to the same line so that way they'll get a busy signal?

287
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,040
And they said, no, of course you can't do that.

288
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,040
You have to make it go to another line.

289
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,040
So they said, why don't you get 9X voicemail so it can go there

290
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,080
when you're on the phone?

291
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,080
And I said, sure, why not?

292
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,080
Let's just test this service out and see how bad it is.

293
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,080
So we got that service.

294
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,080
Let's demonstrate it now.

295
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,080
Let's call right into 9X voicemail where we now have an account.

296
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,080
And we can hear what it's like.

297
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,080
You have reached the 9X voice messaging service.

298
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,080
If you have a mailbox on the service and wish to access it, please press pound.

299
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,080
Okay.

300
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:22,120
Please dial your mailbox number.

301
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,120
Okay, here's the mailbox number.

302
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,120
Didn't think I was going to play it on the air now, did you?

303
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,120
Emmanuel Goldstein.

304
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,120
Please dial your password.

305
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,120
Okay, I'm certainly not going to play that on the air.

306
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:48,120
You have no new messages in your mailbox and two saved messages.

307
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,120
Main menu.

308
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:54,120
To hear your messages, press 1.

309
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,120
To change your personal options, press 3.

310
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,120
Not much of a choice, is there?

311
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:02,120
But let's press 3 and see what happens.

312
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,120
To change your greeting or recorded name, press 1.

313
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,120
To change your password, press 2.

314
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:08,120
To back up to the main menu, press star.

315
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,120
All right, let's change our greeting.

316
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:14,120
I want to test something here.

317
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,120
To change your greeting, press 1.

318
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,120
To change your recorded name, press 2.

319
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,160
To back up, press star.

320
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,160
We don't want to back up.

321
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,160
Let's listen to the greeting first.

322
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,160
Your caller is now here.

323
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,160
Hello, this is Emmanuel and I don't seem to be around.

324
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,160
So, why don't you leave a message at the sound of the beep or tone or whatever.

325
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,160
Thank you.

326
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,160
To keep that greeting, press 1.

327
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,160
To record a new greeting, press 2.

328
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,160
I don't think I want to keep that.

329
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,160
Let's start a new one.

330
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,160
Record your new greeting at the tone.

331
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,200
Press pound.

332
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,200
Hi, this is Emmanuel.

333
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,200
I don't seem to be in.

334
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,200
If you're lucky, this 9X voicemail thing will take your message,

335
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,200
but in all likelihood, it will erase it or do something horrible to it

336
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,200
because we all know

337
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,200
what an incompetent company 9X is.

338
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,200
So, if you have any faith at all in their technology,

339
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,200
start talking at the sound of the tone.

340
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,200
Otherwise, hang up and send me a letter.

341
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,200
Thank you.

342
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200
Your caller is now here.

343
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,200
Hi, this is Emmanuel.

344
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,240
I don't seem to be in.

345
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,240
If you're lucky, this 9X voicemail...

346
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,240
Okay, well, we all heard it.

347
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,240
Now, my point in doing this is

348
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,240
this is 9X's system.

349
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,240
I'm paying to use 9X's system.

350
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,240
Now, will they allow me to say

351
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,240
whatever I want to say on their system

352
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,240
or will they get angry and cut me off?

353
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,240
Well, I've cast the die.

354
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,240
Let's see what happens now.

355
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,240
The reason I think they're going to get angry

356
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,240
is because they also offer this other service

357
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,240
known as...

358
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,240
It's called Call Mover Service

359
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,240
or Call Mover Plus Service.

360
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,240
It's what's known as a customized intercept.

361
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,240
In other words,

362
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,240
when you call a number that's been disconnected,

363
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,240
you can put your own voice on it now

364
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,240
and tell people what your new number is.

365
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,240
Well, we got this service.

366
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,240
I thought, great, this is going to be fun to play with.

367
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,240
And they gave me an 800 number to call.

368
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,240
And I called the 800 number

369
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,240
and, of course, it wasn't working.

370
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,240
Of course, it didn't recognize the phone number.

371
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,240
The password wasn't working and nothing was right.

372
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,240
Finally, they got that fixed.

373
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,240
And I got in and I was able to change the recording.

374
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,240
And I changed the recording to something like

375
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,240
this is...

376
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,240
You've reached an old number. Please call this new number now.

377
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,240
And isn't technology wonderful?

378
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,240
And things like that, you know.

379
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,240
Apparently, that offended them.

380
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,240
They went in, they listened to the message

381
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,240
and they went back and they recorded

382
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,240
their own message instead.

383
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,240
Their own message which includes the name and address

384
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,240
of the new number.

385
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,240
Now, I never asked for the name

386
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,240
and address of an unlisted phone number

387
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,240
to be given out on a recording.

388
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,240
But apparently, they felt that that was the default setting

389
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,240
and that's what they had to do.

390
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,240
And they also thought that by saying anything

391
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,240
other than the name, number or address,

392
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,240
it's unauthorized.

393
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,240
You're not allowed to say it.

394
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,240
Even though it's a number you're paying for,

395
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,240
you're not allowed to say anything else on this recording.

396
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,240
It's utter

397
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,240
imbecility if such a word exists.

398
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,240
So, I don't

399
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,240
very much recommend the

400
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,240
CallMover or CallMover Plus

401
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,240
service at this point in time.

402
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,240
We're going to play with it some more and see what happens.

403
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,240
And hopefully next week, we'll have an update

404
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,240
on that particular thing.

405
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,240
That's

406
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,240
the 9X saga for now.

407
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,240
It's quite a story.

408
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,240
Quite a story. And I know there's other people out there

409
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,240
with similar stories. If you've ever

410
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,240
experienced anything like that, well,

411
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,240
you know.

412
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,240
You know exactly the kinds of things that

413
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,240
await you.

414
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,240
All right.

415
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,240
Now we have a similar story.

416
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,240
A similar story that takes place

417
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,240
in a foreign country

418
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,240
far, far away.

419
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Yes, you thought it was

420
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,240
just 9X that had all kinds of problems.

421
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,240
Well, it's not.

422
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,240
We told you a few weeks ago

423
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,240
about the problems in India.

424
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,240
Well, this week,

425
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,240
we're going to tell you about the problems in Kenya.

426
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,240
Kenya has

427
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,240
long enjoyed a reputation as the one country

428
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,240
in sub-Saharan

429
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,240
Africa that works.

430
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,240
Works, relatively speaking.

431
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,240
Things work over there.

432
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,240
It has decent highways, well-managed game parks,

433
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,240
local governments that provide a modicum

434
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,240
of social services.

435
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,240
Still, there are constant reminders

436
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,240
that you're living in the developing world.

437
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,240
Heavy rains usually mean blackouts

438
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,240
lasting as long as 36 hours,

439
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,240
unless you have a government minister

440
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,240
living in your neighborhood.

441
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,240
And the Nairobi City Council,

442
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,240
which recently announced it was bankrupt,

443
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,240
can take weeks to pump out

444
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,240
an overflowing septic tank

445
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,240
or repair a broken water line.

446
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Perhaps the most maddening aspect

447
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,240
of life in Kenya,

448
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,240
and one that continues to deteriorate

449
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,240
to the annoyance of the Western press corps

450
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,240
and United Nations bureaucrats

451
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,240
who have made Nairobi their African headquarters,

452
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,240
is the telephone service provided erratically

453
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,240
by the state-owned Kenya Post

454
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,240
and Telecommunications Corporation,

455
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,240
known as KPTC.

456
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,240
Consider the local phone call.

457
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,240
On any weekday morning,

458
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,240
simply communicating with my office

459
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,240
or any downtown Nairobi number

460
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,240
from my home

461
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,240
on Nairobi's outskirts

462
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,240
takes a minimum of 35 or 40 tries.

463
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,240
I used to curse

464
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,240
and slam down the phone

465
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,240
with frustration,

466
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,240
but now I've come to savor

467
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,240
the weird variety of technical failures

468
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,240
that greet my attempts to get through.

469
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,240
These include

470
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,240
A. A busy signal

471
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,240
B. Dead silence

472
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,240
C. Dead silence followed by an inability

473
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,240
to disconnect the call

474
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,240
D. An out-of-order tone

475
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,240
E. A taped message

476
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,240
in Swahili

477
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,240
announcing that the number has been changed

478
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,240
F. A low guttural ring

479
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,240
that sounds vaguely like a human belch

480
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,240
G. A message in English

481
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,240
and Swahili

482
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,240
advising me to try the call again later

483
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,240
and

484
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,240
H. My favorite

485
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,240
crossed wires

486
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,240
For some reason, this screw-up

487
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,240
always interjects me into a conversation

488
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,240
at an auto insurance company

489
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,240
or an Indian-run jewelry store.

490
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,240
The main reason for the growing phone mess

491
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,240
is a standard African syndrome,

492
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,240
crumbling infrastructure

493
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,240
and lack of money.

494
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,240
According to officials I talked with at the KPTC,

495
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,240
Nairobi's telephone exchanges

496
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,240
are overloaded.

497
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Most have twice as many phone lines coming in

498
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,240
as they do going out.

499
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,240
The pressure to expand telephone capacity

500
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,240
is growing more intense

501
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,240
as the city's population explodes

502
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,240
but cash is unavailable,

503
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,240
especially since Western nations

504
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,240
and the World Bank suspended

505
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,240
most development aid in 1992

506
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,240
to protest the Kenyan government's

507
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,240
corruption and resistance

508
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,240
to democratic reforms.

509
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,240
Even maintenance has ground to a halt.

510
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,240
Exchange equipment and overhead

511
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,240
and underground lines have disintegrated.

512
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,240
When it rains heavily,

513
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,240
much of Nairobi's phone system

514
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,240
is knocked out for hours or even days.

515
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,240
The red tape laden

516
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,240
and underpaid bureaucracy

517
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,240
hasn't helped matters.

518
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,240
My phone service has been shut off

519
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,240
three times without notice

520
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,240
for various technicalities.

521
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,240
Each interruption requires a trip

522
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,240
15 miles out of Nairobi

523
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,240
to a ramshackle office in a cornfield

524
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,240
where I plead

525
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,240
with KPTC functionaries

526
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,240
and dangle the promise

527
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,240
of Johnny Walker Red Label.

528
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,240
Then, I should try that actually,

529
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,240
then there's the friend in the press corps

530
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,240
whose international phone service

531
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,240
was cut without warning one morning

532
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,240
because she was told by the KPTC clerk

533
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,240
your bills are too high.

534
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,240
The friend pointed out

535
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,240
that her news agency

536
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,240
had paid every phone bill on time

537
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,240
for the past 20 years.

538
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,240
The man was unmoved.

539
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,240
She got it restored 12 days later

540
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,240
after pleas, threats, and finally

541
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,240
a call to the Minister of Communications.

542
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,240
In Nairobi,

543
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,240
merely getting a telephone installed

544
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,240
can be a lengthy ordeal.

545
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,240
Typical is the resident

546
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,240
recently described in the Nation newspaper

547
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,240
who applied for a phone in 1987.

548
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Last month, he received a letter

549
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,240
from the phone company

550
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,240
informing him that they had processed his request

551
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,240
but that the engineer who was to install his phone

552
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,240
had gotten lost looking

553
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,240
for the applicant's house.

554
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Unless the company was provided

555
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,240
with a detailed map by March 1st,

556
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,240
if the letter went on,

557
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,240
the entire procedure would have to begin again.

558
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Beyond mismanagement,

559
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,240
there's also blatant theft.

560
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,240
Last fall, one American correspondent

561
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240
I know received a call from a phone company clerk

562
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,240
notifying her that her predecessor

563
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,240
still owed $500 in unpaid phone charges.

564
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,240
She went to headquarters

565
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,240
and paid the man in cash

566
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,240
then later learned

567
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,240
he was running a freelance scam

568
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,240
within the phone company office.

569
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Even Nairobi's telephone directory

570
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,240
bears the stamp of incompetence.

571
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,240
Prepared in collaboration

572
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,240
with a Portuguese publisher,

573
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,240
the 1993 phone book

574
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,240
quickly became the city's biggest joke

575
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,240
thanks to a bizarre alphabetizing system

576
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,240
that rendered it virtually useless.

577
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,240
Some Nairobi residents were listed

578
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,240
under their first names,

579
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,240
some unmarried women were found under M for Miss,

580
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,240
and the Aga Khan was listed

581
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,240
under H for what else

582
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,240
is excellency.

583
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,240
The 1994 directory

584
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,240
hit the streets last month

585
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,240
with typically chaotic results.

586
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,240
Although the book is supposed to be distributed free

587
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,240
by the government,

588
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,240
most copies were stolen by KPTC workers

589
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,240
and are now being hawked at Nairobi traffic circles

590
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,240
for $8 apiece.

591
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,240
It could be worse.

592
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,240
In the region around Lake Navasha,

593
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,240
50 miles west of here,

594
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,240
gangs stripped valuable copper telephone wires

595
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,240
from poles strung along 70 miles of highway.

596
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,240
The phone company lacks the cash

597
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,240
to replace the stolen cables

598
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,240
and the entire population

599
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,240
has been without service for nearly two years.

600
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,240
That is from an article called

601
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,240
Can Ya Hear Me?

602
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,240
That comes from the March 28th edition

603
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,240
of the New Republic.

604
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,240
So phone service

605
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,240
is everywhere, isn't it?

606
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,240
But when it's bad here,

607
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,240
you feel real moral outrage

608
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,240
because we say that

609
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,240
we're the leaders.

610
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,240
We say we're the leaders in telecommunications and technology,

611
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,240
and yet, incompetence abounds.

612
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,240
That's why it's important to speak out,

613
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,240
say something,

614
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,240
and let people know

615
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,240
when something like that happens.

616
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,240
Well, I feel I've let enough people know about this.

617
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,240
There's a lot more to let you know about.

618
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,240
But we have to stop now

619
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,240
and we need your support from our listeners

620
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,240
in order to continue.

621
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,240
That's very nice. We're up to $115

622
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,240
and we haven't even asked for any calls yet.

623
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,240
Usually it stays down to zero

624
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,240
until we make a plea.

625
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,240
But that's really nice.

626
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,240
I appreciate the people that were motivated

627
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,240
to call in before we even asked for anything.

628
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,240
We need your support, obviously,

629
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,240
because this is a community-run radio station

630
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,240
and you are the community.

631
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,240
Actually, we all are the community.

632
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,240
And we run the station

633
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,240
in the ways that we can run it

634
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,240
and we need our listeners to run the station

635
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,240
in the ways they can run it.

636
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,240
Our telephone number is

637
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,240
212-279-3400

638
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,240
and while any pledge is helpful,

639
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,240
the following pledges will certainly

640
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,240
be most appreciated.

641
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,240
A $75 pledge

642
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,240
will get you a full year

643
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,240
of 2600 Magazine,

644
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,240
which I'm currently holding up to the microphone.

645
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,240
2600 Magazine is the hacker quarterly.

646
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,240
It's a magazine that

647
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,240
I'm the editor of

648
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,240
and we've been publishing now for 10 years.

649
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,240
This is our 10th anniversary.

650
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,240
Can you believe that?

651
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,240
We've been doing this for 10 years.

652
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,240
We started as a very, very small underground

653
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,240
Xeroxing it late at night in other people's offices

654
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,240
type of magazine or newsletter even.

655
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,240
And we've

656
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,240
expanded

657
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,240
because people out there

658
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,240
were interested.

659
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,240
We're interested in learning, interested in finding out about technology

660
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,240
and it's because of that

661
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,240
that people now find us all over the place

662
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,240
in different countries, at newsstands,

663
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,240
that kind of thing.

664
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,240
For a pledge of $75 though, 2600 Magazine

665
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,240
will find its way to your home

666
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,240
for an entire year

667
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,240
and you don't have to worry. You don't have to worry about getting in trouble.

668
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,240
You don't have to worry about the authorities

669
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,240
coming and knocking on your doors

670
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,240
because it comes in a plain brown envelope

671
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,240
with no mention of 2600 anywhere on it.

672
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,240
So I know that's a concern of people

673
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,240
and not because the information contained

674
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,240
in here is illegal or anything like that.

675
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,240
It's because of the

676
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,240
overreaction of people in charge.

677
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,240
They think that any

678
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,240
information is potentially

679
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,240
bad and people that

680
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,240
seek out information are potential

681
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,240
troublemakers. Well, they're right about that. We are potential

682
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,240
troublemakers, aren't we?

683
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,240
And if we all stick together

684
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,240
then we'll learn a lot from each other.

685
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,240
But we're not sticking together

686
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,240
yet, are we? There's nobody on the phones.

687
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,240
212-279-3400

688
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,240
Remember, we take Visa, we take MasterCard

689
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,240
and that makes it

690
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,240
a lot easier because you can spread your payments

691
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,240
out however long you need to spread them out for.

692
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,240
And it's also good for us because

693
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,240
we don't have to wait for your check to arrive.

694
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,240
It shows up the next day

695
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,240
through the magic of computers.

696
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,240
212-279-3400

697
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,240
You know, we have to use

698
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,240
9X to get through. I know.

699
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,240
It's catch-22.

700
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,240
Here we are complaining about 9X

701
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,240
yet we need to use 9X.

702
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,240
That's a sad fact of life

703
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,240
but that's the way it is.

704
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,240
Through radio programs like this and through

705
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,240
radio stations like this one

706
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,240
people can become aware

707
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,240
of the inadequacies

708
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,240
in technology. They can be aware of

709
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,240
choices.

710
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,240
If an alternative to 9X comes

711
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,240
along, you'll hear about it here on WBAI.

712
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,240
212-279-3400

713
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,240
is our phone number.

714
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,240
Please make a pledge of whatever you can afford

715
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,240
and a $75 pledge

716
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,240
will go a long way towards

717
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,240
helping us.

718
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,240
It will bring 2600 Magazine to your home

719
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,240
for a year. It will also bring the

720
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,240
WBAI program guide. We still have no calls.

721
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,240
Why?

722
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,240
That's kind of surprising.

723
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,240
Maybe 9X got angry

724
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,240
and disconnected our phones.

725
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,240
That's a possibility. But in all seriousness

726
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:11,240
other radio stations cannot

727
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:13,240
do this. Have you ever heard

728
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:15,240
other radio stations going on for that long

729
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:17,240
about 9X

730
00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:19,240
or any big corporation? No, you don't.

731
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:21,240
And it's not because they don't want to.

732
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:23,240
Everybody's got some sort of a complaint.

733
00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:25,240
They want to get off their back.

734
00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:27,240
Everybody has experiences like this.

735
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:29,240
But you can't say it

736
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:31,240
in a public forum because

737
00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:33,240
if you do, you'll get

738
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:35,240
somebody powerful angry at you.

739
00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:37,240
And if you get powerful

740
00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:39,240
people angry at you,

741
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:41,240
they'll do things like pull the support

742
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:43,240
of the radio program. Well, this radio program

743
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:45,240
is supported by you. So don't pull

744
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:47,240
your support. Show your support.

745
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:49,240
012-279-3400

746
00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:51,240
And

747
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:53,240
again, it's our spring

748
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:55,240
fundraiser. This is the first day of our spring

749
00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:57,240
fundraiser. And

750
00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:59,240
we really need to see some people out

751
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,240
there. We'll be able to continue with the radio

752
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,240
program. We have a few more interesting

753
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,240
things. Actually quite a few more interesting things. We're going to talk

754
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:07,240
about the HOPE conference coming up.

755
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:09,240
We're going to have a special

756
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,240
actually two special guests coming in.

757
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,240
We have a fiber optic update

758
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:15,240
and news from the cellular

759
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,240
world. That's right. We have

760
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,240
some cellular updates.

761
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,240
A lot of questions that some of you have been asking

762
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,240
out there. But we have some answers.

763
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:25,240
We also have two people on the line which is good.

764
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:27,240
012-279-3400

765
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,240
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect

766
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:31,240
the full switchboard. We got this last time

767
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,240
and I know the other shows have been getting full

768
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,240
switchboards too. So don't diss

769
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,240
us. 012-279-3400

770
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,240
We know you're out there

771
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,240
because people

772
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,240
show up at the 2600 meetings.

773
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,240
They contact us on the internet.

774
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,240
They certainly call during non-marathon

775
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,240
weeks to ask questions and

776
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:51,240
give comments and experiences of the phone company.

777
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,240
Well, if you want us to be here for

778
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:55,240
you in the future, we need to know

779
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,240
that you're out there for us now.

780
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,240
012-279-3400

781
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:01,240
I know you're sitting out there

782
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,240
listening thinking this doesn't apply

783
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:05,240
to you. It does.

784
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,240
It does because you're one

785
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,240
of a very special group of people.

786
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,240
And a very special

787
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:13,240
group of people are people that can

788
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,240
make a big difference.

789
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,240
There's a lot of radio stations that

790
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,240
just play music, that just

791
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,240
have religion

792
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:23,240
or meaningless

793
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,240
talk 24 hours a day.

794
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,240
And it's sad because

795
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,240
they don't get anywhere. They don't

796
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,240
make any changes. Maybe they

797
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,240
report on what's going on in the world. Maybe they

798
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,240
play the same songs over and over again. But they don't

799
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,240
do anything. Here at WBAI

800
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,240
we do things. We make changes.

801
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,240
We get people together. We exchange

802
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,240
ideas.

803
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,240
It makes a lot of difference.

804
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:47,240
Two people coming together turns into

805
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:49,240
four people coming together. It turns into an entire

806
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,240
community. That's how it all begins.

807
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:53,240
But it doesn't

808
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:55,240
come for free. We need your

809
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,240
support. 012-279-3400

810
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,240
One call

811
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,240
on the line. We have

812
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,240
capacity for seven. So,

813
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,240
people out there,

814
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,240
every one of you can add to that.

815
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,240
And when we get up to seven, then we can

816
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:11,240
move on to the rest of the program

817
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:13,240
and the other things that we want to bring you for

818
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,240
this particular

819
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,240
two hours. We're on for two hours tonight. We're on

820
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,240
until midnight. 212-279-3400

821
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,240
That's

822
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:23,240
our phone number

823
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,240
here.

824
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,240
And we have

825
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:29,240
an update on the HOPE conference,

826
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:31,240
which is Hackers on Planet Earth.

827
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:33,240
That will be taking place in

828
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,240
August. Now, that's something else

829
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:37,240
that has come about because of

830
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:39,240
the support of the community out here.

831
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,240
Both the radio community and the hacker community

832
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,240
and the technological

833
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:45,240
community and everything else out there.

834
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:47,240
So, show your support.

835
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:49,240
212-279-3400

836
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,240
To update people on

837
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,240
Hackers on Planet Earth, which is known as the

838
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,240
HOPE conference.

839
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:57,240
It's an opportunity to feel the real magic

840
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,240
of hacking instead of hearing about

841
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:01,240
how we're about to destroy the world

842
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,240
in a cheap tabloid or something like that.

843
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,240
It's going to take place August

844
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,240
13th and 14th at the Hotel

845
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,240
Pennsylvania.

846
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:11,240
Yes, we have a location now. The Hotel

847
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:13,240
Pennsylvania, right in the middle of

848
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,240
bustling New York City. It's right down

849
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,240
the block from here, in fact.

850
00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:19,240
That's on 7th Avenue and 34th Street.

851
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,240
And we're going to

852
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:23,240
have conferences of all

853
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,240
sorts. Things that you just

854
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,240
could not imagine. And it's all

855
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,240
going to be brought to you by hackers.

856
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,240
All kinds of things on cellular phones,

857
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:33,240
hacker videos, surveillance demos,

858
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,240
hacker

859
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:37,240
superstars from all around the planet.

860
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,240
And

861
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:41,240
that's going to be coming your way in August.

862
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:43,240
So that's something that we'll be updating you on.

863
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:45,240
Something that a lot of BAI people

864
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:47,240
I hope will get involved in.

865
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:49,240
212-279-3400

866
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,240
Show your support for Off The Hook.

867
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:53,240
And for a $75 pledge,

868
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,240
receive a full year of 2600 magazine,

869
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,240
The Hacker Quarterly.

870
00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:59,240
If you already get 2600,

871
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,240
then you can still pledge.

872
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:03,240
And there's all kinds of other things that we are offering as well.

873
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:05,240
Simply ask our

874
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:07,240
Tally Room volunteers

875
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,240
and they will be more than happy to guide you

876
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,240
through the list because there's all kinds of neat things

877
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:13,240
there.

878
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,240
With every pledge that we get,

879
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,240
it adds up. We're up to $200

880
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,240
now, which is great, but

881
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,240
we're still a bit behind.

882
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:23,240
We're actually quite a bit behind, to be honest.

883
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:25,240
212-279-3400

884
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,240
Remember, we take MasterCard and Visa

885
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,240
and those nice things

886
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:31,240
and we really

887
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:33,240
need to hear from you.

888
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,240
Two more people now will make a big difference

889
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,240
because whatever those two people

890
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,240
pledge will be added

891
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:41,240
together and that will be added to the 200 we already

892
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,240
have. By the time we're off

893
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,240
tonight, we'll be that much

894
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,240
more ahead in the whole game.

895
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,240
That's how it works.

896
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,240
One person starts it,

897
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,240
somebody else continues, and before you know it

898
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,240
you have dozens,

899
00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:57,240
hundreds, thousands.

900
00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:59,240
It's something

901
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:01,240
I've seen many, many times because we've

902
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,240
been through a lot of these fundraisers. I'm sure a lot of our

903
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,240
listeners have been through these fundraisers too

904
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,240
and they can be kind of tiresome sometimes.

905
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,240
Yeah, they can be really draining and

906
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,240
believe me, they can be draining on the people

907
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,240
on the radio, but

908
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,240
when all is said and done,

909
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:17,240
you've gotten somewhere. You've accomplished something.

910
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,240
You've built something out of nothing

911
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:21,240
and right now

912
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,240
we're at the beginning. We're at the beginning of a fundraiser

913
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,240
and we need to build up

914
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,240
the momentum. 212-279-3400

915
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,240
We have

916
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,240
three calls on the line. Now that's going to make

917
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,240
a huge difference and if you don't believe me,

918
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,240
in a couple of minutes we'll have

919
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:37,240
a new number to put up there and that number will seem

920
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:39,240
significantly better than 200. At least I sure hope so.

921
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:41,240
212-279-3400

922
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,240
Please give us a call.

923
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:45,240
Please be part of this process.

924
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:47,240
It doesn't feel bad. You know, when you

925
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,240
call in and you give money to a station

926
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,240
like us, it feels great.

927
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,240
I know because I've done it.

928
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:55,240
Most of the people on the air here have done it.

929
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:57,240
It would be kind of hypocritical

930
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,240
if we just asked for money and didn't actually

931
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:01,240
put more into this, even though we're

932
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:03,240
not getting paid for what we do here and we

933
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,240
simply grind

934
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,240
ourselves into the ground bringing all

935
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,240
kinds of interesting radio programs to

936
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:11,240
the air, but that's not

937
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,240
enough. We all know that we have to

938
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,240
put money in as well. I mean, it's true.

939
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,240
It's the only way we're going to keep going.

940
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:19,240
Case in point, have you read the newspapers

941
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:21,240
recently? Have you heard about WNYC?

942
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:23,240
That's the city-owned

943
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,240
radio station. It's a public radio station.

944
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,240
It's a non-commercial station, but it's in the

945
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:29,240
commercial part of the dial. Now, I'll

946
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,240
explain what that means. Below 92

947
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,240
is what we in the radio business

948
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,240
refer to as

949
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,240
the non-commercial ghetto.

950
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,240
That's where the FCC has mandated

951
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:41,240
any station below 92 on the

952
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:43,240
dial must be non-commercial.

953
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,240
So, you have college stations

954
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:47,240
there and you have some NPR

955
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:49,240
stations and this is

956
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,240
a bone of contention with me.

957
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,240
A lot of religious stations

958
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:55,240
wind up down there below 92.

959
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,240
I have to take offense at that because

960
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,240
I think if you're peddling religion

961
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:01,240
you're peddling a product of some sort

962
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:03,240
and that's very commercial.

963
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,240
That's my point of view on that

964
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,240
and by having religious stations

965
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:09,240
down there you're taking up valuable

966
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,240
non-commercial frequencies that

967
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,240
could be used by colleges or

968
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:15,240
community groups or what have you.

969
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,240
Okay, so you may ask, what is WBAI

970
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,240
doing at 99.5 FM?

971
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,240
I mean, you're non-commercial, right?

972
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,240
You should be below 92.

973
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:25,240
Why are you above 92?

974
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,240
Well, it's an interesting story, but

975
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:29,240
basically this radio station was donated to

976
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,240
us by a commercial entity

977
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:33,240
and

978
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:35,240
we could theoretically

979
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:37,240
go commercial. We could do that.

980
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,240
We could, although it would go against the Pacifica

981
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:41,240
Charter, but we could sell this station

982
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,240
and make a tidy sum

983
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:45,240
and there'd be another

984
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:47,240
commercial station in New York.

985
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:49,240
Now, that is something that there are

986
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,240
people here in this building right now who would

987
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,240
give their lives to prevent that

988
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,240
from happening. They would lay down in front of

989
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,240
whatever it is that would come in to do that

990
00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:59,240
before that would actually happen.

991
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:01,240
However, at WNYC

992
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,240
that is exactly what they are now talking

993
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,240
about because of our

994
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:07,240
esteemed mayor who has no

995
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,240
conception whatsoever of what

996
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:11,240
non-commercial radio is all about

997
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,240
or what radio is all about for that matter.

998
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,240
He sees a radio station

999
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,240
at 93.9 which

1000
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:19,240
is also above 92

1001
00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,240
and he can figure it out, I guess.

1002
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:23,240
He figured out there was a commercial frequency

1003
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,240
and not a non-commercial frequency

1004
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,240
and so he said, well,

1005
00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,240
I guess we could sell this station and make

1006
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,240
a lot of money.

1007
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:33,240
We could make a lot of money for the city.

1008
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,240
Now, the problem is, what happens to this radio

1009
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,240
station that exists?

1010
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,240
Now, if you've been reading the papers recently

1011
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,240
you might have seen a few solutions.

1012
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:43,240
They want to

1013
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,240
merge it with another radio station

1014
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:47,240
WNYE in Brooklyn

1015
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:49,240
and maybe start

1016
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:51,240
another frequency somewhere. Well, that's out of the

1017
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,240
question. There are no frequencies available in New York.

1018
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:55,240
Every single frequency is taken.

1019
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:57,240
They cannot start anymore. The only solution

1020
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,240
would be to move it to another

1021
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:01,240
station, take over another station

1022
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:03,240
and operate at

1023
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:05,240
less power. Now, what I can't

1024
00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:07,240
understand is the people

1025
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:09,240
who are being quoted in the

1026
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,240
newspapers are saying this is a good deal for everybody

1027
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:13,240
concerned. How is it a good deal?

1028
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:15,240
How is that a good deal when you're taking

1029
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,240
an existing radio station and moving it

1030
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:19,240
to a less powerful point on the dial

1031
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:21,240
probably inside the non-commercial

1032
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:23,240
ghetto and

1033
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,240
obliterating another radio station

1034
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,240
on top of that, just so

1035
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,240
the city can make some money and

1036
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,240
so that there's another commercial radio

1037
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,240
station on the dial. It goes

1038
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,240
to show that

1039
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:37,240
when radio is put in the hands of people

1040
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:39,240
that don't understand, bad things

1041
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,240
happen. Fortunately, WBAI

1042
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,240
is not in those hands. We're not owned by

1043
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,240
the city. We're owned by the Pacifica Foundation

1044
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,240
and they have a very good sense as

1045
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:49,240
to what radio is all about, what non-commercial

1046
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:51,240
radio is all about.

1047
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,240
The important thing here

1048
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:55,240
is that we all recognize

1049
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:57,240
what Pacifica recognizes, that

1050
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:59,240
this is a valuable radio station. We want

1051
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,240
to remain here at this point in the dial.

1052
00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:03,240
We want to remain right smack in the

1053
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:05,240
middle of the commercial dial because

1054
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:07,240
that way it's kind of like in your face.

1055
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,240
You reach us

1056
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:11,240
when you're going between Z100 and KISS.

1057
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,240
You kind of pass by and you

1058
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:15,240
get stuck. People

1059
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,240
hit us by accident and they never leave.

1060
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,240
Now, if you stick us down somewhere

1061
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,240
in a less powerful frequency,

1062
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,240
you'll never get that opportunity. You'll never find us.

1063
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:25,240
There'll be people out there that will never hear WBAI.

1064
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:27,240
That's the importance of it.

1065
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,240
And yeah, you could say

1066
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:31,240
that

1067
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,240
you can make millions of dollars with a commercial

1068
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,240
frequency. And we have a commercial

1069
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:37,240
frequency and we're not making millions of dollars

1070
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:39,240
with it. So there.

1071
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,240
We're going to remain non-commercial. We're going to remain

1072
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,240
right smack in the middle of the FM dial

1073
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,240
and we're going to do it with your help.

1074
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:47,240
Right? 212-279-3400.

1075
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:49,240
Show us that you're out there.

1076
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,240
Show us that you care. Show us that you want

1077
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,240
99.5 FM to remain

1078
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:55,240
right where it is

1079
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:57,240
and that it means something to you.

1080
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,240
Show us that

1081
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:01,240
the Giuliani approach will not work

1082
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,240
for this radio station

1083
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,240
and that our listeners will stand up

1084
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,240
for us and keep us going.

1085
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:09,240
212-279-3400.

1086
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,240
Please show your support.

1087
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:13,240
There's never been a better time than now.

1088
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,240
Okay.

1089
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:17,240
I've said all I can

1090
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:19,240
possibly say on that. It's one

1091
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:21,240
caller on the line. I think there should be

1092
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:23,240
a lot more than that. 212-279-3400.

1093
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,240
Please give us

1094
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,240
a call.

1095
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:29,240
All right. We've talked about the phone company.

1096
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:31,240
We've talked about Kenya. We've talked about

1097
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:33,240
the Hope Conference.

1098
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,240
What should we talk about

1099
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,240
next?

1100
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:41,240
I guess we could...

1101
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:49,240
...program over the past year

1102
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,240
or so. Fiber has been sent to

1103
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:53,240
federal prison in Schoolkill,

1104
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,240
Pennsylvania, which is a really

1105
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:57,240
really horrible thing to have

1106
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,240
happen to somebody like that.

1107
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,240
It's a minimum security

1108
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:03,240
place, but having been there

1109
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:05,240
myself, having visited him,

1110
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:07,240
I can tell you it is living hell.

1111
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:09,240
Having talked to him on the phone more recently,

1112
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:11,240
I can tell you that he's really

1113
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,240
feeling it as far as

1114
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:15,240
the monotony, the

1115
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:17,240
loneliness, just not being

1116
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:19,240
a part of things out here.

1117
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:21,240
I can tell you that he really misses

1118
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,240
this place. He really misses the radio show

1119
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:25,240
and, of course, everything that goes on

1120
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,240
in the world of technology.

1121
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:29,240
Now, Walter is a friend of

1122
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:31,240
Mark's, who is Fiber's

1123
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,240
real name. Is your microphone on,

1124
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:35,240
Walter? It sure

1125
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:37,240
sounds like it is. You saw Mark

1126
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:39,240
this Saturday.

1127
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:41,240
Do you want to update us as to

1128
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:43,240
how he's doing? Well, he's actually

1129
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:45,240
during the visit, he's

1130
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,240
always in good spirits. All the times I've

1131
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,240
been visiting him, but

1132
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,240
of course, he's always going to be happier when someone's visiting

1133
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,240
him. I haven't talked

1134
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:55,240
to him on the phone lately, but

1135
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,240
when I was there,

1136
00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,240
he was actually having

1137
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,240
fun. We were joking around.

1138
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:03,240
That's something I've noticed

1139
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,240
too.

1140
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,240
When you think of it, you can only visit him

1141
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,240
on a weekend, and he can

1142
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:11,240
only get four visits. Is it four or five

1143
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:13,240
for a month?

1144
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,240
Something like four or five. Four or five visits

1145
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,240
a month, and that's it. And the rest

1146
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:19,240
of his time, he pretty much has to

1147
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,240
do whatever it is they tell him to do.

1148
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,240
In the winter, he had to shovel snow

1149
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:25,240
eight hours a day. Now, I think he has to

1150
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:27,240
wash dishes or some menial thing like that.

1151
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:29,240
There's so many

1152
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,240
things he cannot do. For instance,

1153
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:33,240
last week, we were looking

1154
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:35,240
at the book by Mishio Kaku that

1155
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:37,240
we were offering on the air before called

1156
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:39,240
Hyperspace.

1157
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:41,240
It's a book that Mark would simply love

1158
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,240
to read, and we have to figure out a way

1159
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,240
to get that to him because they don't

1160
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,240
allow hardcover books.

1161
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:49,240
We have to figure

1162
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:51,240
out a way to send this guy a book so he can

1163
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:53,240
stay sane.

1164
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:55,240
This is the kind of garbage that we have to

1165
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:57,240
deal with. There's also been all kinds of problems

1166
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,240
with medication.

1167
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,240
They have not been giving him the medication he's supposed to

1168
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:03,240
be getting.

1169
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,240
We've been going through every

1170
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:07,240
channel possible to get the right things

1171
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,240
to him, and we're just meeting with brick

1172
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,240
walls.

1173
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:13,240
He's still not getting the medication.

1174
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:15,240
You talked about that.

1175
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:17,240
He's still not getting it.

1176
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:19,240
Basically, what this

1177
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:21,240
boils down to is that

1178
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:23,240
Mark needs a particular type of

1179
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:25,240
medication to ward off an infection

1180
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,240
that he's susceptible to.

1181
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,240
When we

1182
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:31,240
brought him there in January,

1183
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:33,240
they sent back that

1184
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:35,240
medication. They sent it back to his house with his

1185
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:37,240
clothes, and they have

1186
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,240
not given it to him since.

1187
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,240
They've given him a substitute, which, according to

1188
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:43,240
his doctor, is not a substitute.

1189
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:45,240
We had his doctor contact

1190
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:47,240
the prison. His doctor said that he

1191
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:49,240
called the prison eight times

1192
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,240
and

1193
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,240
each time was not connected to anybody

1194
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:55,240
that was in charge.

1195
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,240
It was an extremely frustrating

1196
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:59,240
thing to have happen.

1197
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,240
Now we're looking at

1198
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:03,240
legal action of some sort,

1199
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:05,240
but the fact of the matter is, while we're

1200
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:07,240
doing this here,

1201
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:09,240
he's sitting behind

1202
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:11,240
the wall there

1203
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:13,240
and God knows what. Not allowed to read

1204
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:15,240
more than a certain amount of material

1205
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:17,240
in a particular week.

1206
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,240
He's not allowed to have more than four books or five books

1207
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:21,240
in total.

1208
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,240
He has to restrict who he talks to on the phone

1209
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,240
and all kinds of things like that.

1210
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:27,240
So how can you help? Why are we telling you this?

1211
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:29,240
Just to depress you?

1212
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,240
I guess the best thing you can possibly do is

1213
00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:33,240
write to him and let him know

1214
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,240
you're still out there because

1215
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:37,240
that's probably the most

1216
00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:39,240
important thing.

1217
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,240
Letters do mean a lot to him.

1218
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:43,240
Yeah, definitely.

1219
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,240
I think that's the one thing that really

1220
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:47,240
keeps him going.

1221
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:49,240
Let's give out his address

1222
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:51,240
so that people can

1223
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:53,240
do that. If anybody wants to contribute to his

1224
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:55,240
phone expenses

1225
00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:57,240
so that he can make phone calls to his friends

1226
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,240
and family,

1227
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:01,240
they charge an outrageous amount. They charge something like

1228
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:03,240
25 cents a minute even if he calls at night

1229
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:05,240
and he has no choice. He can't call

1230
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:07,240
collect. He has to use

1231
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,240
his special PIN code that they

1232
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:11,240
offer there. I'm sure they're making a bundle off of this.

1233
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:13,240
Anyway, the address

1234
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:15,240
to write to FiberOptic is

1235
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:17,240
Mark Abene, that's A-B-E-N-E

1236
00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:19,240
and his number, which is really

1237
00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:21,240
his name, is

1238
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:23,240
32109-054

1239
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:25,240
F-P-C

1240
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:27,240
Schoolkill

1241
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:29,240
S-C-H-U-Y-L

1242
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:31,240
K-I-double-L

1243
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:33,240
Unit 1, P.O. Box

1244
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:35,240
670 Minersville,

1245
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:37,240
Pennsylvania, 17954

1246
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:39,240
and

1247
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:41,240
again, every

1248
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:43,240
letter counts.

1249
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:45,240
Every letter counts. If you're on the

1250
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:47,240
internet, I'm forwarding all his

1251
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:49,240
internet email. Yeah, that's a great idea.

1252
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:51,240
Tell us about that. At his account

1253
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:53,240
the system he used to work on before he

1254
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:55,240
went away, Echo.

1255
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,240
If you want to send him email, you can

1256
00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,240
send it to Fiber at

1257
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:01,240
EchoNYC.com. It's P-H-I-B-E-R

1258
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:03,240
at EchoNYC.com

1259
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:05,240
and I forward it

1260
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:07,240
every once in a while when I get a batch.

1261
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,240
And have there been many people

1262
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:11,240
sending mail? Well,

1263
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:13,240
lately, there have been a

1264
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:15,240
few, but it

1265
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:17,240
comes and sometimes it's slow.

1266
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,240
Yeah, when I talked to him on the phone, he said that

1267
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:21,240
letters had fallen off. He hasn't

1268
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:23,240
been getting very much.

1269
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:25,240
And that's understandable because

1270
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:27,240
he's been in prison now since

1271
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,240
January and

1272
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,240
we all have lives to lead. We kind of forget when

1273
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:33,240
people aren't around, but he's been there

1274
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,240
the whole time. I go there

1275
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:37,240
to visit him once every

1276
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:39,240
few weeks and it's just depressing

1277
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:41,240
being there. It's a depressing

1278
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:43,240
place to be. You just feel this

1279
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:45,240
confinement all around you. You feel

1280
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,240
eyes always staring at you. Every

1281
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,240
movement you make is being analyzed

1282
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:51,240
and scrutinized.

1283
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,240
I would not survive

1284
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:55,240
in a place like that for very long without

1285
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:57,240
getting into a whole lot of trouble

1286
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:59,240
because of something I did.

1287
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:01,240
I mean, imagine my attitude about the phone company being

1288
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,240
translated to the prison.

1289
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:05,240
It just wouldn't work out. And I think that's

1290
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:07,240
how a lot of

1291
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,240
individuals feel. And Mark is certainly

1292
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:11,240
an individual in every sense of the word.

1293
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:13,240
They're locking up

1294
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:15,240
the wrong people. And I think that's something

1295
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:17,240
that a lot of us who have listened to

1296
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:19,240
this whole saga realize.

1297
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:21,240
You just have

1298
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:23,240
to make sure this doesn't keep happening.

1299
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,240
All right, Walter.

1300
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:27,240
Thanks very much for stopping

1301
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,240
in and updating us. Is there anything else you wanted to

1302
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:31,240
pass along as far as his condition

1303
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:33,240
or anything? Well, one of his friends

1304
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:35,240
was talking about the food situation there

1305
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,240
and I thought this was something

1306
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,240
I'd like to talk about.

1307
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:43,240
He was saying one day they had

1308
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:45,240
a bunch of rotten meat

1309
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:47,240
which was already rotten

1310
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:49,240
but they needed to defrost

1311
00:53:49,240 --> 00:53:51,240
it otherwise it would get

1312
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:53,240
I suppose even more rotten.

1313
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:55,240
I don't know what the rotten threshold

1314
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:57,240
is they have at the prison but they needed

1315
00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:59,240
to defrost it really quickly so they

1316
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:01,240
simply took it and they threw it in the dishwasher

1317
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:03,240
to defrost and served

1318
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:05,240
it later.

1319
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,240
Mark's actually lucky because he works in the kitchen

1320
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:09,240
so he knows what not to eat.

1321
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,240
Well, that's

1322
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:13,240
something. And one thing he said to me though

1323
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,240
recently was that he's really looking

1324
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:17,240
forward to eating food again. Yeah, we

1325
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:19,240
sneak food into him whenever we visit. Really?

1326
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:21,240
Yeah, we buy some things

1327
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,240
at some restaurants there and we sneak it in.

1328
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:25,240
You have to be careful though even giving him

1329
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,240
food. He got in trouble

1330
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:29,240
the time we visited. He got too close

1331
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:31,240
to his girlfriend

1332
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,240
and he was taken aside by one of the guards.

1333
00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:35,240
You can't really get too close to

1334
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:37,240
people and you can't

1335
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:39,240
really look as if you're giving him anything.

1336
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:41,240
This was on the more recent visit? Yeah.

1337
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,240
Because the same exact thing happened when I visited him too.

1338
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:45,240
Yeah. A repeat offender

1339
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:47,240
I guess.

1340
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:49,240
Well, I can hardly

1341
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:51,240
wait until the day when he can get out and tell us in his own words

1342
00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:53,240
what's happening.

1343
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:55,240
Also, with regards

1344
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:57,240
to the conference this summer,

1345
00:54:57,240 --> 00:54:59,240
I don't know how, but

1346
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:01,240
he will be part of this somehow. We'll make sure

1347
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:03,240
that he is.

1348
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:05,240
That's something else to look forward to.

1349
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,240
Okay, we're here

1350
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:09,240
at WBAI New York.

1351
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:11,240
We'll be going another hour because this is

1352
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:13,240
a special fundraiser

1353
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:15,240
and

1354
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:17,240
we need to make sure that

1355
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:19,240
it was a good idea to do that, to go another hour

1356
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:21,240
with this program.

1357
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:23,240
We need to hear from listeners who will

1358
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:25,240
show their support for this radio

1359
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,240
program, Off the Hook, which has been

1360
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,240
coming your way for several years now, bringing you

1361
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,240
news from the

1362
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,240
electronic frontier. I really don't

1363
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,240
like that phrase too much. I don't know.

1364
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,240
I just don't want to picture people

1365
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:39,240
with cowboy hats and horses.

1366
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:41,240
That's just my own personal

1367
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:43,240
feeling on the matter.

1368
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:45,240
212-279-3400

1369
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,240
is our phone number.

1370
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:49,240
Again, for a pledge of $75

1371
00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:51,240
you can receive

1372
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:53,240
a full year of 2600 Magazine

1373
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:55,240
and become part of this world

1374
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:57,240
where it's not always good news.

1375
00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:59,240
Sometimes

1376
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:01,240
we see things happen to people that are

1377
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:03,240
messed up. The wrong

1378
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,240
people are being locked away.

1379
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:07,240
People who question, people who

1380
00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:09,240
say

1381
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:11,240
the wrong things or

1382
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:13,240
are in the wrong places

1383
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:15,240
are punished in kind of a

1384
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:17,240
weird way.

1385
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:19,240
It's part of the growing

1386
00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:21,240
pains of this technology.

1387
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:23,240
We all have to be a part of that

1388
00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:25,240
because if we just sit idly

1389
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:27,240
by and let it happen, it's not

1390
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,240
going to work out nicely.

1391
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:31,240
No, it's not going to work out nicely at all.

1392
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:33,240
We have to take part in it. We have to

1393
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:35,240
voice our opinions

1394
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:37,240
and we have to speak up when something is

1395
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:39,240
wrong. By calling us now

1396
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:41,240
you are voicing your opinion.

1397
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:43,240
Very definitely. You're showing your support.

1398
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:45,240
WBAI does not have commercials.

1399
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,240
We never did. We never

1400
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,240
will.

1401
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,240
The reason we are able to

1402
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:53,240
not have commercials is because of our listeners.

1403
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:55,240
Because people out there

1404
00:56:55,240 --> 00:56:57,240
call up and they pledge $20,

1405
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,240
$30, whatever it is they can afford.

1406
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:01,240
It adds up and believe it or not, it

1407
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:03,240
pays for a 50,000 watt radio

1408
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:05,240
station in the middle of the commercial

1409
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:07,240
dial in the middle of New York City.

1410
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:09,240
It's probably the most incredible thing

1411
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:11,240
that's happened in the history of radio

1412
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:13,240
because there are no other radio

1413
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:15,240
stations of this nature that can

1414
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:17,240
reach this many people.

1415
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,240
212-279-3400

1416
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,240
call in, show your

1417
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,240
support, join the people

1418
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,240
that have called already and

1419
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,240
make us stronger. Help keep us going.

1420
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,240
We need to raise

1421
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,240
money somehow and if we're not going to

1422
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,240
get it from Exxon and from 9X

1423
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,240
and from all those other great

1424
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,240
institutions, we have

1425
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,240
to get it from individuals.

1426
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,240
And the individual voice, I think, is a much

1427
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,240
more powerful one than the corporate

1428
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:47,240
voice. 212-279-3400

1429
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,240
Remember, we're not afraid here

1430
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,240
to say things

1431
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,240
that might get big

1432
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,240
powers upset. Powers,

1433
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,240
governmental powers, corporate powers,

1434
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,240
what have you.

1435
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,240
We speak

1436
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,240
opinions here and we allow our listeners to speak opinions

1437
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,240
as well and we share

1438
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,240
information in very many ways.

1439
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,240
The WBAI community is

1440
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,240
quite similar to the hacker community.

1441
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,240
The

1442
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,240
playing field is a little bit different.

1443
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,240
One is computers and phones, the other is radio

1444
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,240
and free speech, but it's all

1445
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,240
tied together. 212-279-3400

1446
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,240
We're up to 350 bucks which

1447
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,240
really is not too good, I don't think.

1448
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,240
Not to chastise our listeners too much

1449
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,240
but come on, where are you?

1450
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,240
We need to hear from you. We need to hear from you

1451
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,240
now because

1452
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,240
if it stops at this point, it'll be

1453
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,240
a catastrophe and then

1454
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,240
I don't know, I don't know what the future

1455
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,240
holds for us. 212-279-3400

1456
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,240
Think of it this way,

1457
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,240
two people calling in right now, two people

1458
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,240
calling in and pledging $75 each

1459
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,240
and getting that full year of 2600 magazine

1460
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,240
that will raise the total by

1461
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,240
another 150 bucks and that will bring us up to

1462
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,240
500 and 500 sounds much better than

1463
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,240
350, doesn't it?

1464
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,240
And three people calling doing that?

1465
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,240
Well, you know, it just continues.

1466
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,240
No matter what it is you pledge,

1467
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,240
it adds up, it makes the numbers sound

1468
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,240
a whole lot better, makes the numbers

1469
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,240
really be a whole lot better.

1470
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,240
212-279-3400, we take Visa, we take

1471
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,240
MasterCard and we

1472
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,240
take phone calls. Hopefully 9X is

1473
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,240
processing the phone calls tonight.

1474
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,240
I didn't really mean to offend them, I'm sorry

1475
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,240
but that's

1476
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,240
just my opinion, that's all.

1477
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,240
212-279-3400

1478
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,240
If you're driving,

1479
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,240
well, use your cellular phone if you have one.

1480
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,240
If not, stop at a pay phone and call us

1481
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,240
from there. Use your Visa

1482
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,240
or MasterCard if you have one of those things.

1483
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,240
Otherwise, we'll simply send you a little

1484
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,240
reminder in the mail and

1485
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,240
at your convenience, you can simply

1486
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,240
send us whatever it is that you pledge tonight.

1487
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:47,240
212-279-3400

1488
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,240
We have one call on the line.

1489
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,240
Let's make that

1490
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,240
three or four. I mean, this is

1491
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,240
prime time, right?

1492
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,240
I think the stand is over now

1493
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,240
so everybody should be

1494
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,240
able to call up and show some

1495
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,240
support for real cutting-edge

1496
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,240
radio. 212-279-3400

1497
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,240
Two calls on the line.

1498
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,240
Let's make that three.

1499
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,240
Think of the power you have. You're sitting there at home

1500
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:13,240
twiddling your thumbs, wondering how you're going

1501
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,240
to change Western civilization tonight.

1502
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,240
Call 212-279-3400

1503
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,240
and believe it

1504
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,240
or not, you'll make a difference.

1505
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,240
I mean, it's happened before.

1506
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,240
People have called up and

1507
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,240
brought us over the goal, brought us over

1508
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,240
the edge, and

1509
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,240
individuals have gotten us there.

1510
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,240
We've never taken a corporate

1511
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,240
grant. We've never taken a check from

1512
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,240
one of these multinational

1513
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,240
corporations that

1514
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,240
we're always railing against because of all

1515
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,240
the nasty things they do.

1516
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,240
And the reason

1517
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,240
we don't have to do that is because there are so many people

1518
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:49,240
out there that show their support.

1519
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,240
212-279-3400

1520
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,240
It's 1102.

1521
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,240
Ordinarily, you hear a rebroadcast of the evening news

1522
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,240
at this point, but we're continuing

1523
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,240
an extra hour so that

1524
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,240
we can reach out to you, our listeners,

1525
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,240
and ask you to

1526
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,240
become part of this radio station. If you've never

1527
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,240
called before, this is the perfect time

1528
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,240
to become part of it.

1529
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,240
Your name won't go on any FBI list.

1530
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,240
At least, I don't think so.

1531
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,240
You'll be helping

1532
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,240
a unique radio station. You'll be helping us

1533
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,240
stay on the air. You'll be helping programs like

1534
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,240
Off the Hook continue your way.

1535
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,240
It's all up to you.

1536
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,240
It's time to make a stand.

1537
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:27,240
212-279-3400

1538
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,240
We're waiting.

1539
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,240
Make a stand

1540
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,240
Before you fall

1541
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,240
Your country needs you

1542
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,240
To play football

1543
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,240
Wake up call

1544
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,240
You hear the call

1545
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,240
All for one

1546
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,240
One for all

1547
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,240
All for one

1548
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,240
And one for all

1549
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,240
What happened to

1550
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,240
You made of mine

1551
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,240
When things were loud

1552
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,240
You made them right

1553
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,240
All for one

1554
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,240
And one for all

1555
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:59,240
All for one

1556
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,240
And one for all

1557
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,240
Now in the gossip

1558
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,240
I was told

1559
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,240
By the empire

1560
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,240
By the empire

1561
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,240
How you will fall

1562
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,240
A pint of beer

1563
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,240
Life passes by

1564
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,240
Your spirit's quiet

1565
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,240
Just like a fly

1566
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,240
Your spirit's quiet

1567
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,240
Just like a fly

1568
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:47,240
Because it's green

1569
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,240
And pleasant land

1570
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,240
The power's slipping

1571
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:59,240
Through your hand

1572
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,240
All for one

1573
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,240
And one for all

1574
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,240
All for one

1575
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,240
And one for all

1576
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,240
Wake up call

1577
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,240
You hear the call

1578
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,240
Your country needs you

1579
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,240
To play football

1580
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,240
Make a stand

1581
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,240
Before you fall

1582
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:43,240
All for one

1583
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,240
And one for all

1584
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,240
All for one

1585
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,240
And one for all

1586
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,240
God bless the queen

1587
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,240
Her people too

1588
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,240
God bless this country

1589
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,240
And see us through

1590
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,240
All for one

1591
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,240
And one for all

1592
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:21,240
All for one

1593
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:25,240
And one for all

1594
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,240
www.WBAI.org

1595
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,240
www.WBAI.org

1596
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,240
www.WBAI.org

1597
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,240
www.WBAI.org

1598
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,240
www.WBAI.org

1599
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,240
www.WBAI.org

1600
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,240
www.WBAI.org

1601
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:49,240
www.WBAI.org

1602
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,240
www.WBAI.org

1603
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:53,240
www.WBAI.org

1604
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,240
www.WBAI.org

1605
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,240
www.WBAI.org

1606
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,240
www.WBAI.org

1607
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,240
www.WBAI.org

1608
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:03,240
www.WBAI.org

1609
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:05,240
www.WBAI.org

1610
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,240
www.WBAI.org

1611
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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,240
www.WBAI.org

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www.WBAI.org

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01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,240
www.WBAI.org

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01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:43,400
And we're back here on Off The Hook, normally on your radio dial from 10 to 11 o'clock on

1624
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:49,800
Wednesday nights here on 99.5 FM WBAI. Tonight a special two-hour edition. We're asking for

1625
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:54,920
your support at 212-279-3400. I want to thank the people that called in during that break.

1626
01:07:54,920 --> 01:08:00,520
Your support is going to make a big difference. It really will. There's no question about that.

1627
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:06,840
Without that spurt of calls there, I would have been very, very depressed. And the radio station

1628
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:13,560
would have been, I don't know, contemplating my future, I'm sure. But we're not there yet.

1629
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:19,320
We're not there yet. We need to continue. 212-279-3400. If you've ever gotten anything

1630
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:24,840
out of this program, please call now. Show your support. Because we're here for you.

1631
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:32,520
But we need for you to be here for us. That makes sense, doesn't it? 212-279-3400.

1632
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,720
Here's a story about hackers. Yeah, hackers. You might have heard about this one out of Cambridge,

1633
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:42,760
Massachusetts. They've put a fiberglass cow up there in a working telephone booth.

1634
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:48,040
They've even built a small house. So no one was shocked Monday when MIT students somehow managed

1635
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:53,400
to put what appeared to be a campus police car on top of the 150-foot-high dome on the

1636
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:59,880
university's main building. After all, MIT kids will be MIT kids. They never cause anyone trouble,

1637
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:04,680
but they are mischievous, said Ronald Mendez, a physical plans supervisor. It's too bad other

1638
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:10,440
people don't have the attitude about that, about hackers like this guy has. The car appeared about

1639
01:09:10,440 --> 01:09:15,880
4 a.m. on the roof of the Robert C. McLaurin building. It was actually the shell of a car

1640
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:21,800
attached to a wooden frame painted to look like a cruiser, said MIT police chief Ann Glavin.

1641
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:25,640
There was a flashing red light on top and a parking ticket on the windshield.

1642
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:29,720
Inside was a stuffed upper torso of a fake body and a box of donuts.

1643
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,920
You guys are laughing a little too hard over there. You don't know something about this, do you?

1644
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:41,240
I sure hope not. The culprits haven't been caught, but all fingers point to the hackers,

1645
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:46,440
an informal and mysterious campus group whose name predates the emergence of computer hacking.

1646
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:51,800
University officials said the hackers probably sneaked into the building, climbed onto the roof,

1647
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:56,280
and assembled the car there. School workers disassembled it by 10.30 a.m.

1648
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,240
Practical jokes have a long tradition at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology,

1649
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:05,800
and the dome of the McLaurin building has been the choice site over the last 15 years.

1650
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:10,200
The building is the centerpiece of the campus, fronting the Charles River that separates

1651
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:15,400
Cambridge and Boston. In 1979, a life-size fiberglass cow was placed on the dome.

1652
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,600
Three years later, a telephone booth, complete with a working phone, was installed.

1653
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:25,240
And in 1986, hackers built a small house, complete with door and windows.

1654
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:30,120
Hackers are careful not to cause permanent damage, so no one seems to mind.

1655
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,800
Let me repeat that last line for those of you that might not believe it.

1656
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:38,360
Hackers are careful not to cause permanent damage, so no one seems to mind.

1657
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:43,000
Oh, I wish that were true. The part about nobody minding, that is.

1658
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:49,960
Okay. Are we still on the internet? Okay, we're on the internet. If you go on to IRC,

1659
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,080
just like last week, and go into the WBAI channel, you'll see us there.

1660
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:58,760
And we're talking to various people on the net, live here on the radio as well.

1661
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:03,960
And I guess we can bring the keyboard over at some point, and I'll chat live with these people

1662
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:09,080
as well, just to say hi. But I really should focus my attention on the radio program,

1663
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:15,160
now, shouldn't I? 212-279-3400 is our phone number for pledges. Please give us a call and

1664
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:21,400
become part of this. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I can take phone calls at the same time.

1665
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,600
Oh, okay. The technological geniuses here figured this out.

1666
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,600
We're going to be speaking with Bernie S. in a little while, out of Philadelphia,

1667
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:36,280
who's going to be updating us on some cellular magic. And I didn't give out the phone number.

1668
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:41,160
I don't know why people are calling the special line. I didn't give it out yet. I just said,

1669
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:48,760
maybe I'll take calls. So, already people are calling. Our main phone number to make a pledge.

1670
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:55,560
Very important thing to do. 212-279-3400. We're over the $600 mark, but we still have to reach

1671
01:11:55,560 --> 01:12:04,760
the $1,000 mark. That's our goal for tonight. 212-279-3400. Please give us a call. As we move

1672
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:10,200
the computer equipment over here, we also have some information out of, we were just mentioning

1673
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:18,200
MIT. And as many of you know, there was some controversial things going on at MIT regarding

1674
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:24,440
computers and software piracy, quote unquote, which we've been talking about in the past and

1675
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:30,200
we'll be talking about in the future. And some of you may have seen the thing on Nightline a couple

1676
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:35,880
of weeks ago, which was kind of funny and interesting. There's this one person on the

1677
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:42,600
internet. This was on the Usenet news group called comp.risks, who took exception to a lot of things

1678
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:48,120
that I said on that program. And I'd like to read his comments and have an opportunity to respond to

1679
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:57,240
that. And are we on? Okay, we're on the net there. That's great. Well, you can log me in. Oh, you

1680
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:00,920
don't know my password. Okay, I have to log myself in here. I'm logging in as I'm speaking on the

1681
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:06,680
radio. And... His password is... Okay, that's my password there. If people can figure out what

1682
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:11,720
that is, more power to them. I'm going to read from this and then I'll go on to the net after

1683
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:18,200
that. But if you have net access, just get on the internet and join WBAI channel on the IRC,

1684
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:23,160
Internet Relay Chat Program. If you don't have access to that, don't fret because we'll be

1685
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:27,720
figuring out ways for everybody to get on at some point this year or in years to come as well.

1686
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,960
But our phone lines are empty. That doesn't make me happy to see that. There should always be calls

1687
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:36,360
coming in, pledges coming in, so that we can continue bringing you innovative programming

1688
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:42,120
first on the radio. I mean, how many radio stations do you know that have internet feeds

1689
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:49,320
live as you speak? You may not have internet access, but through us, you do. You see? That's

1690
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:53,320
the way we're trying to work things, so that you can call us, say something, we can transmit it

1691
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:59,320
over the entire internet, and you can hear the feedback of various other people. And hopefully...

1692
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:04,600
We're getting some beeps there, huh? Hopefully, more people will have access in the future. We're

1693
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:10,520
going to do everything in our power to make that happen. But power is something that comes from

1694
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:17,640
all different sides, and we need your side to come through as well. 212-279-3400. Okay, now,

1695
01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:27,000
this person, his name is Michelle Cabay, and I'm not quite sure where he is, but he's from the

1696
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:32,440
National Computer Security Association, so right away, you know there's going to be some differences

1697
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:38,600
in opinion as far as what software piracy is and is not. To refresh everybody's memory on this case,

1698
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:44,520
the case involves a student at MIT, David LaMacchia, who is accused of running a bulletin board

1699
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:53,240
on the internet through which copyrighted software was transmitted. Now, it is the contention of his

1700
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:57,240
lawyers that he was running a bulletin board system and should not be held accountable for

1701
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:03,000
things that his users were doing without his knowledge. And that's fine and true, and I agree

1702
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:07,000
with that. However, I think it's a bigger case than just that. I think this also brings in a lot

1703
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:13,480
of questions concerning what computer programs actually are. Is copying a program the same as

1704
01:15:13,480 --> 01:15:19,800
physically stealing something? And I will go down to the wire on this and say it is not. It is

1705
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:25,080
different. It is not the same thing as stealing. That is what I'm trying to get across to people,

1706
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:32,440
and I'm getting flamed, which is a net expression, which means that somebody yells at you for a while

1707
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:38,520
and says nasty things to you. Well, here's part of a flame, and I'll flame back, perhaps, and

1708
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:46,360
we're all flamed together. Okay, this is a comment that I made that this person is quoting.

1709
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:50,520
On the internet, there are no tangibles. You can steal something and they no longer have it,

1710
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:57,560
or you can go on the computer system or computer network and copy something, but it's a copy.

1711
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:02,440
It's not the same as stealing. I think that's the first thing we have to get over. We can't use the

1712
01:16:02,440 --> 01:16:06,040
same analogies that exist in the real world, because this is no longer the real world.

1713
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:11,000
Here's the comment. Goldstein exemplifies an attitude prevalent among criminal hackers.

1714
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:17,480
Criminal hackers. Dehumanization of cyberspace. It seems to them that there are no people on the

1715
01:16:17,480 --> 01:16:22,760
other end of the communications channel, only things. Stealing software in this context seems

1716
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:27,320
victimless. In reality, companies are losing money and people are suffering monetary losses.

1717
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:33,480
If I can break in for a second. If you keep saying stealing software over and over again,

1718
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:37,000
over and over again, even if your argument doesn't make any sense, as long as you keep

1719
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,400
saying stealing software, people are going to think you're stealing software. But you're not

1720
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:46,200
stealing software, okay? This is not stealing. You are not taking something and removing it

1721
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:50,360
from somebody else. That is a definition of stealing. This is something else. I'm not saying

1722
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:58,120
the action does not cause harm to somebody at some point if nothing is done. And by that,

1723
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:01,720
I mean if nothing is done to compensate the people that write the software.

1724
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:07,640
Let's continue with this. Some small companies can go out of business entirely if they cannot

1725
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:11,720
get sufficient revenue to cover the months of grinding, often poorly paid work by their

1726
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:16,520
employees. Human beings have smaller salaries or even lose their jobs because of software theft.

1727
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:21,160
Cyberspace is as much a part of the real world as speech books and telephones. No one would argue

1728
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:25,880
that stealing a book is a victimless crime, or would they? Some unscrupulous bookstores rip the

1729
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:29,320
covers off books, return the covers to the publisher for a credit, and then sell the

1730
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,800
mutilated books, with not a penny going to the people who wrote, edited, printed, bound,

1731
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,880
and marketed the book. All fine and dandy, and people get murdered in Southeast Asia too. It's

1732
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:43,560
got nothing to do with the issue. The issue is not about people stealing books and ripping off

1733
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:48,280
the authors and things like that. This is about typing a command on a computer and copying a file

1734
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:54,600
from location A to location B. I am saying it is not the same thing as theft. It's copying,

1735
01:17:54,600 --> 01:18:01,960
and if that's the only way that computer programs are existing, if somebody can do that and get the

1736
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:07,880
exact same thing that they get if they pay $10,000 for a program, then something is wrong with the

1737
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:13,160
way we're doing it. You can't make the person into a criminal and say they just stole $10,000

1738
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:17,640
because they hit a keystroke. It's not the same thing. We have to get that through our heads.

1739
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:25,160
Okay, continuing to this person's comments. Chris Wallace, who was the host of Nightline,

1740
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:29,400
protested. Actually, he didn't protest. He interjected, but that's the way this person

1741
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,920
is looking at it. He protested, what's the difference between copying a program, which

1742
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:38,760
I'm then going to appropriate and use, and stealing? Goldstein continued, it's not stealing

1743
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:43,240
because you're not depriving somebody of it. We're presuming that people are not selling this material.

1744
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:47,160
This is something that someone is simply copying to either examine, to analyze, what have you.

1745
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:51,720
There's different reasons why somebody would legitimately copy something. Here's the comment.

1746
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:55,720
Criminal hackers and software thieves miss the key point about intellectual property or

1747
01:18:55,720 --> 01:19:01,400
confidential information. It isn't the copying that causes harm. It's the owner's loss of control

1748
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:06,840
over a valuable resource. Software companies sell a license to use a product, not the product itself.

1749
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:11,880
Software thieves steal the ability to enter into a contract with the user. It is the lost revenue

1750
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:16,440
that is in question, not the extra copy itself. I think this pretty much lays it out on the table.

1751
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:22,200
This is about control. This is about somebody wanting to tell you that they have the right

1752
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:29,240
to keep you from typing keys on your keyboard on your own computer system, and they want to make

1753
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:35,080
it a crime for you to disobey them. Software companies sell a license to use a product,

1754
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:39,640
not the product itself. I think right there, that tells you there's something wrong here.

1755
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:47,480
You can't sell things that aren't tangible and expect people to simply fall into step

1756
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:57,160
and just pay whatever it is you say to pay and not do things that are logical, like make copies

1757
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:02,280
for themselves and examine copies that other people have. It's human nature to do things like

1758
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:07,480
that. If you wish to have a system where people pay a certain amount of money for software,

1759
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:12,200
you have to have it so people want to, so that people want the original, so that they get

1760
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:17,320
something out of it, so it's not the exact same thing as copying. I mean, computer programs are

1761
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:22,840
designed for exactly this purpose, and to tell people that they're not is just simply wrong.

1762
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:30,520
Okay, Goldstein said the problem is that somebody can put a particular value on a piece of software

1763
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:35,560
and say this costs $10,000, and then somebody copies it with a single keystroke and they're

1764
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:41,720
charged with stealing $10,000. Goldstein implies it is illegitimate to apply whatever price the

1765
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:46,360
creator wishes to a product or service, but a producer normally charges what the market will

1766
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:52,600
bear, a price which maximizes profit. Bingo, that is it exactly. It's an arbitrary figure,

1767
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:57,960
and whatever they make money on is what they wind up charging. But what does that do for the people

1768
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:03,800
that can't afford it in the first place? I mean, that kind of mentality might work just fine when

1769
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:08,120
you're selling it to Madison Avenue companies and things like that. Yeah, you'll make a fair return,

1770
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:13,800
but what about some poor end user somewhere that can only afford to pay a few dollars for a

1771
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:19,320
software package? They have to do without. They don't ever get the technology in the first place,

1772
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:25,240
assuming they play by these random rules that are set out. So they never get access to the

1773
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:30,600
technology, and the big companies do get access because they can afford to pay whatever price is

1774
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:36,840
laid on the table, and we have a nice uneven society of haves and have-nots. It's just not right.

1775
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:45,560
Okay. Continuing. Too high for perceived value, and the market chooses alternatives, or they

1776
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:49,240
develop by less greedy competitors. Too low, and the producer risks going out of business.

1777
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:55,640
The other wrong suggestion in this passage is the idea that the ease with which an act is performed

1778
01:21:55,640 --> 01:22:00,840
somehow mitigates responsibility. So a single keystroke copy is more of an excuse for stealing

1779
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:06,040
software than a 20-character command. If a vandal demolishes a building by attacking it with an ice

1780
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:10,120
pick over a five-year period, are we expected to perceive his act as worse than if he had blown it

1781
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:15,400
up by pressing a button to explode a nuclear bomb? Once again, Goldstein confuses technology

1782
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:21,560
with morality. I don't think so here, because I think the issue is the access to the means that

1783
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:27,160
you are given by being handed a button in the first place. Yeah, you know, somebody can press

1784
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:31,160
a button and blow up a city with a nuclear bomb, but you know, I'd sure like to know why somebody

1785
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:36,840
has that ability. Why are we giving out buttons to people if they're not expected to press them

1786
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:41,960
occasionally? You know, you don't give out buttons to people to explode cities because we know

1787
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:47,720
somebody probably will, and it's a damn stupid thing to do. So it's also a stupid thing to expect

1788
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:53,320
someone to attach the same value to a single keystroke as they would to something that is

1789
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:57,960
actually physically worth $10,000. It's not the same. I don't know how many times I can say it,

1790
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:04,440
but I'll keep saying it until somebody listens. In a discussion on the extent of copyright

1791
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:09,160
violation, Goldstein explained his view of why programs get copied. Computer programs are designed

1792
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:13,000
to be copied, so naturally people are going to copy them. If we don't want people to copy them,

1793
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:16,200
then we make them so they are uncopyable or so that people want the original.

1794
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:22,440
Here's the comment. The familiar fallacy of moral possibility. This error consists of believing that

1795
01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:27,080
if something is easy, it must be right. The corollary is that the victim is to blame for

1796
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:33,640
being victimized. Thus, if a bank robber... These real-world analogies really are wearing on me.

1797
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:38,840
If a bank robber uses a howitzer to blow a hole in the wall of a bank, it serves the bank properly

1798
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:44,520
for having failed to encase its building in a 3-foot-thick titanium beryllium alloy. So,

1799
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:48,440
software manufacturers should impose the endless nuisances of copy protection on their products,

1800
01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:52,920
even though these methods increase costs, enrage consumers, and don't work anyway because little

1801
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:57,480
creeps find ways of countering every single programmable technique invented to date.

1802
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:02,920
Just because it's possible to steal doesn't make it right. Here's the stealing again. If you keep

1803
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:07,480
saying we're stealing, someone eventually is going to believe that it's stealing. It's not stealing.

1804
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:15,320
It's copying. Copying is not stealing. It's totally different. Goldstein explained that

1805
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:19,080
many people tape record albums illegally from the band's point of view, though it's a good

1806
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:23,080
thing that the music is being distributed, and that's how I think we should look at copywritten

1807
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:26,440
software. The software is getting out. I don't think Microsoft is going to go out of business,

1808
01:24:26,440 --> 01:24:31,080
and they're probably the company that has copied the most. Here we have Goldstein taking up the

1809
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:35,240
unpaid position of marketing director for musicians as well as software companies.

1810
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:39,880
Decisions on how to market a product or a service are rightfully the responsibility

1811
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:44,360
of the owners of that product or service. Criminal hackers have no moral justification

1812
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:52,280
for interfering with those decisions. Well, I think if you really want to contribute something

1813
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,760
to either the computer world, the music world, the writing world, what have you,

1814
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:01,880
then the most important thing is for your work to get out. It won't get out if you overprice it.

1815
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:06,520
It won't get out if you limit circulation to only certain people. Maybe that's what you want,

1816
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:13,560
but assuming you want your product to get out, then maximum exposure is probably the best thing

1817
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:18,680
that could happen. What we need to figure out is a way of compensating the people that write

1818
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:22,920
software, perhaps. I mean, there are lots of ideas kicking around. Perhaps one idea is to have

1819
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:28,920
some sort of a tariff on hardware, which is something that is obviously tangible. You

1820
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:35,240
can't steal that without committing a crime in everybody's eyes. So why not have a particular

1821
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:41,800
portion of hardware sales go towards compensating whatever software manufacturers are deemed worthy

1822
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:47,560
of accepting that, and we'd have to, of course, argue about how that would be applied. But I just

1823
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:54,680
think that would be a lot more reasonable than attaching these random numbers and then expecting

1824
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:58,920
people to treat them the same way as tangibles. I mean, I sympathize with people out there that

1825
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:02,680
are spending lots of time writing these things and expecting to be compensated. They should be

1826
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:11,160
compensated. I think what is flawed is the logic that makes people feel they are committing a crime

1827
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:17,480
of some sort. All right, we could go on about this for hours and hours, obviously, but I don't think

1828
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:23,640
we have all that much more time to do this. 212, 279, 3400. We're over the 700 mark now,

1829
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:27,480
which means we have less than $300 to go to get to a thousand, and please be a part of that

1830
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:34,680
$300 if you have not called already. 212, 279, 3400. For a pledge of $75, you can

1831
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:41,720
get a copy of 2600 for a full year. That's four issues that come out quarterly, and it will be

1832
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:46,920
delivered to wherever it is you want it to be delivered to in a plain brown envelope with no

1833
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:52,520
mention of the fact that you're getting the hottest hacker magazine around in it anywhere, so you don't

1834
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:57,400
have to worry about your postman stealing it or your parents getting angry at you or your children

1835
01:26:57,400 --> 01:27:03,080
getting angry at you or what have you. 212, 279, 3400. For a pledge of $75, you will get that for

1836
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:09,800
an entire year, and you also get the WBAI folio, which you really need to be able to figure out

1837
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:14,680
what's on when. I mean, I needed a copy to figure out what I was on, and I'm sure listeners need

1838
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:20,360
copies of that to figure out what's on around the clock seven days a week. 212, 279, 3400.

1839
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:25,720
While we're offering the 2600 premium for $75, we also have a whole list of other things

1840
01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:30,200
that our volunteers would be happy to help you with. Any pledge is appreciated. Any pledge is

1841
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:37,000
welcome. We take Visa. We take MasterCard, and we're sitting around at 212, 279, 3400. This is

1842
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:43,720
the spring marathon where we need to raise a certain amount to pay for all the bills that

1843
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:49,400
we always have coming in here for transmitter maintenance and electricity and everything

1844
01:27:49,480 --> 01:27:55,800
except salaries, because we don't pay people on the radio here, unlike those other radio stations.

1845
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:00,200
212, 279, 3400. Nobody on the line yet. We're waiting for that call to come in.

1846
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:08,120
We're on the internet, and where are we now? We're on the WBAI channel. Okay. Let's see how

1847
01:28:08,120 --> 01:28:16,120
many people are on the WBAI channel. 16 people. Okay. I would like to ask people out there that

1848
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:22,520
are on the internet right now to reply on the net and tell us where you are calling from and tell us,

1849
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:29,880
I guess, what city you're in, what state you're in. All right. We have Co-op City in the Bronx.

1850
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:37,960
We have Helsinki, Finland. I don't think so. They would have to be listening, wouldn't they?

1851
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:41,240
Oh, they're rattling across here. Cliffside Park, New Jersey, New Haven, Connecticut,

1852
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:47,720
Throgs Neck in the Bronx, Farmingdale, Long Island, Cliffside Park, Queens, Bayside.

1853
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:53,480
All right. A lot of people out there, and they're all on the net. They're all

1854
01:28:53,480 --> 01:29:01,000
communicating with us on the internet right now to our studios, and I'm going to ask them on the net

1855
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:12,040
here. Has everybody pledged yet? Let's see what kind of response we get. 212-279-3400.

1856
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:18,600
I'm going to type the number in here, too, so that it goes out. Of course, this is going to people

1857
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:22,040
that aren't listening, too, as well, that happen to be on this channel. People from anywhere in

1858
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:28,040
the world could be part of this right now. This person swears that he will. Okay. Well, let's

1859
01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:35,640
hear you call now. Come on. 212-279-3400. I pledged last time. I can't do it every time.

1860
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:42,520
Okay. I can accept that. If you pledged last time, you can be exempt. You're righteous,

1861
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:47,240
and I will not be nagging you. But if you did not pledge last time,

1862
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,560
come on. What's stopping you? What's stopping you from pledging this time?

1863
01:29:52,040 --> 01:30:01,640
Okay. 212-279-3400. Again, we need volunteers, as well, so if you want to volunteer time instead

1864
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:07,480
of money, or in addition to money, that's fine, too. You can call us at 212-279-3400 to become

1865
01:30:07,480 --> 01:30:11,480
part of the process in that particular regard. You see, everybody helps out in whatever way

1866
01:30:11,480 --> 01:30:19,400
they can, and everyone has a way to help out. 212-279-3400. We have two calls on the line.

1867
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:24,520
Let's make that a couple more, and we'll be able to get going, talk to Bernie S. in Philadelphia

1868
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:33,160
about the latest cellular thing. Okay. All kinds of things being discussed here. It's going by way

1869
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:40,120
too fast. WBAI is free speech, and that's really what it's all about. We are definitely free speech.

1870
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:45,960
There's no other way to say that. You know, I'm thinking on this thing, we can actually ask people

1871
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:50,120
that aren't even listening to the radio to support the radio. People in all different parts of the

1872
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:55,080
world would value this radio station. I was in Berlin once, and I found a book on WBAI in German,

1873
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:02,360
which I found to be really amazing. People over there had heard about us. This is a world-famous

1874
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:07,880
radio station. There just aren't very many left that continue to bring non-commercial

1875
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:12,360
alternative programming, so it's a valued thing, you know. Maybe somebody in California would want

1876
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:18,120
to support something in New York, because it's getting free speech out someplace. But those of

1877
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:23,560
you within the Sound of My Voice can definitely benefit from this place, if not from this show.

1878
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:26,600
I mean, there are probably those of you out there that are sputtering with rage right now from the

1879
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:31,800
things I just said about software. Well, you don't have to agree with me. You know, you can come on

1880
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,800
and say your piece at some point, and we can get into a nice discussion about it. But there's

1881
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:40,360
probably something on this radio station that you do agree with, something that you feel is

1882
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:45,960
a good thing to have, and something that you could not get anywhere else. That's why it's important

1883
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:51,880
for you to make that phone call. 212-279-3400. Please become a part of this radio station.

1884
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:57,800
Help us keep going. Help keep us where we are in the middle of the commercial dial. I think it's

1885
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:02,920
just great to have a non-commercial station in the middle of the commercial dial. Oh, we changed

1886
01:32:03,480 --> 01:32:08,920
the topic. Okay, that's great. The topic is Make a Pledge to WBAI, and that means that that's

1887
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:15,640
showing up everywhere around the world from people looking at the topics of various channels in IRC.

1888
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:22,920
Again, we're on the Internet Relay Chat, which is part of the Internet. If you have Internet access,

1889
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:30,440
join us there. We're in the WBAI channel. And boy, there's all kinds of interesting discussions.

1890
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:35,160
AT&T talks about all the great things we're going to see in the next few years, but who is really

1891
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:42,040
going to be able to afford it? Very good question. They have these amazing commercials where they

1892
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:44,760
say, we're going to find a cure for every disease in the world, and the company that's going to

1893
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:49,640
bring it to you is AT&T. Well, they can make empty promises like that and get credit for things that

1894
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:54,920
don't exist. But here at WBAI, we're not taking credit for things we haven't done. We're not

1895
01:32:55,880 --> 01:33:01,880
taking credit for things that are in the future. We're taking credit for the past. We stand on our

1896
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:07,880
record. We stand on the present, what we exist as now. And that's what we ask you to support us

1897
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:13,960
for. 212-279-3400. If you've gotten something out of this program in the past, if you're

1898
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:19,080
listening now and not feeling the urge to switch to Letterman, well,